73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Engine/Drivetrain => Topic started by: Grim 82 on June 01, 2010, 04:57:58 PM
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I will be putting in a 700r4 to replace my SM465 (sm465 going for a different project) in my 82 K10. I have an 84 K10 with a bum 700r4 and I have an 88 suburban (thought it was an 87 until recently) with a 700r4. One of them is going in to be rebuilt and then I will install it. I read that the 87 & newer 700r4's are stronger than the older ones. Which of these 2 is a better candidate for the swap? I am unsure if the 88 is computer controlled.
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Use the 88. The only difference is the VSS
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Cool, thanks! Before posting my question I asked the guy at the transmission shop, but I wanted your thoughts on this. I asked about wiring for the lockup, and he said that they can make them so that they lock up hydraulically, and then you don't need to run wires to it. Does that sound about right? I have read the boards here and it seems that everybody that has done a swap like this ran wires for the lockup. Is that preferred, or even possible? Also he said that the 88 would shift harder than the older ones, but I don't see why it would make any difference if it's built and adjusted properly. I appreciate the help and expertise, as I know very little of automatic transmissions.
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The TCC solenoid is electronic so you need 12v to energize it. You can control it hydraulically using electric pressure switches if that's what he meant otherwise I don't think he knows what he's telling you.
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Agreed. That just doesn't jive with everything that I've read here. For the money to get it rebuilt, and the work to swap everything else that goes along with it, I don't want to take any short cuts. I want it to work right. If I have the '88 rebuilt, what else will I need to take from that vehicle to make it work? The '88 is quite a ways away so when I get the trans I want to pull everything else I need at the same time. I have the complete '84 pickup sitting here locally to start salvaging parts from right away like the steering column, crossmember, t-case, etc.
Does it matter which flex plate I use?
Are the TV cables the same?
Will my starter work with the new flex plate?
Do I need to pull some existing wiring to put in the 82?
If so does it matter if its from the 84 or the 88?
Since the 88 has the VSS, what does that entail to make it work?
Does it matter which t-case I use (84 or 88)?
Sorry for all the questions, I am just quite unfamiliar with alot of this. I really appreciate the help.
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Just do some research on the board here. You'll probably find more than all of your answers in greater detail.
Does it matter which flex plate I use?
Yes you need the flexplate for your engine application. One Piece and two piece rear main is different
Are the TV cables the same?
Yes they should be. If not they are compatible
Will my starter work with the new flex plate?
Yes
Do I need to pull some existing wiring to put in the 82?
If so does it matter if its from the 84 or the 88?
If you want the pigtail for the TCC Solenoid and the low vacuum switch
Since the 88 has the VSS, what does that entail to make it work?
You just might have to swap the speedo gear assemblyDoes it matter which t-case I use (84 or 88)?
Are they both NP208? If so use whichever one looks better.
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I am going to start collecting up all the parts tonight. ;D Thanks for your help Vile
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Well I have the trans, t-case, steering column & related wiring pulled and have my original column out. I tried a different trans shop and this guy puts corvette servos, etc. into each 700 he builds, and a bunch of other things that I don't fully understand. This build will include a new converter and lock-up wiring kit with a pigtail to connect to the existing wiring, and an additional cooler and temp gauge. I have the vacuum switch from the donor truck. Any suggestions on an additional shift kit or anything else to consider before I take it to the shop?
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Where are you located? Have him check the sunshell thoroughly. The servo applies the band. The servo upgrade provides a positive engagement and disengagement of the band. You will also notice a firmer 1-2 shift. Transgo makes a nice 700R4 reprogramming kit that helps eliminate all of the bugs the 700R4 was plagued with.
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Fargo, ND. I got the auto column installed last night and hooked up the switch that goes to the brake pedal from the trans harness. Still have to hook up the dimmer and intermittent wipers, but the truck runs again. On the low vacuum switch on the firewall, does it just need to be plugged into a manifold vacuum source? It was not plugged in on the donor truck. Thanks for the help
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Yes, manifold vacuum
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It's getting a new hardened steel sunshell and the transgo kit. I should have it back early next week. ;D I stripped down the 84 too and compared the 2 flex plates. The 84 and 88 are different so one of them should be the match to replace my flywheel.
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I asked about wiring for the lockup, and he said that they can make them so that they lock up hydraulically, and then you don't need to run wires to it.
From Transmission Center:
#12LU. 700-R4 Hydraulic Lock-up Package, works on 1982 to 1989 valve bodies only. The Fairbanks hydraulic lock-up package allows you to engage lock-up automatically without the computer. Non-toggle switch activated, it comes with 5 custom calibrated springs so you can vary the point at which your torque converter actually locks-up. Cost $69.00
I found through some researching GM used these years ago as a solution to in & out lockup "hunting" on some models. There is a GM part number for a kit, I believe it only has four springs. I bought it before I swapped to the 4L60e, but never tried it so I have no input as to how well it works.
Vile, This setup eliminates the TCC. Lorne
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You mean it eliminates the tcc solenoid right? The earliest design lock up converters were fully hydraulic non electrictronic but everyone hated them. I wouldn't recommend a non electronically controlled tcc but that's just my opinion. The in and out lock up was easily corrected with the modified PR valve and tv boost valve.
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Yes, Vile that is correct...I knew what I was thinking & just quit typing I guess. Lorne
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I gotcha! So you never ended up using the one you got?
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That must be what they were referring to. I'm setting mine up with all the original design from the donor truck. The donor suburban has already paid for itself. When I was pulling the trans out of it I looked in the back seat for a block of wood or something to use as to not dent the pan with the jack. I almost couldn't believe what was back there; an old school nintendo with the hookups, 4 games, and 2 controllers. I took it apart last night, cleaned it up and pre-stressed the contactors, and then played Mario 3 in the garage. ;D
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I downloaded all the old mario games for Wii and it's awesome! lol
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I gotcha! So you never ended up using the one you got?
No I didn't...got into messing with the electronic one instead. Lorne
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Still waiting patiently for the transmission. For the weekend I plan to clean up some other parts and apply some por15. My question is about the crossmember. The one I have in there now is flat across the bottom and uses a taller trans adapter with 2 seperate mounts. It seems to be identical to the one from the 84 pickup. The one from the 88 sub winds up and down and looks to be contoured to allow for the front drive shaft. That adapter is shorter and uses a single mount in the center. Does it matter which one of these I use? They look like they will hold the t-case at the same elevation as long as I use the corresponding adapter. The 88 is in good shape, but either of the other two would need new mounts. Sorry for no pics.
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The flat ones are prone to cracking. I had mine crack in half my 84 K5 while I was cranking down the highway and it wasn't pretty. Use the curved one as I've never seen one of them ever fail.
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That's exactly what I wanted to hear, since then I won't have to buy new mounts. Thanks.
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I should be getting the 700 this week. I went over there and it was all together except for the filter and the pan. I asked where the wires were that I need to hook up, and he says that he contacted TransGo about this new hydraulic only lockup kit that they sell, and that's what he put in there. >:( transgo p/n 700-LU
I already have the pickup set up with the switches to make it like stock. I told him I would try it out for a bit and if I don't like it he's going to do it over with the electric setup.
Anybody out there using a 700r4 with a 600 Holley model 80457S? I am curious what you used for brackets to connect the TV cable.
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Let us know how that transgo hydraulic lockup works out for you. Quick disengagement of the TCC? No shuttling?
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I'll keep you posted, and I'll probably have questions about its behavior. I'll get it this week but I won't be able to start the swap until after next week. In the meantime I want to make sure I have the correct brackets for the TV cable. I was having carb troubles and tried to run the q-jet again but that didn't work out so I am running the Holley for now.
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Here is the genuine Sonnax TV geometry corrector:
http://www.oregonperformancetransmission.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=OPTI&Product_Code=SNX-AS2-02K&Category_Code=700R4HP
Here is Summit's knock off version: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-700202/
And here is a good resource for verifying proper TV setup: http://www.cpttransmission.com/tech_tvcable.htm
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Thanks for the links. Is there any difference between them, or the Holley part for that matter?
http://www.holley.com/20-121.asp
Also I am using a cheapo Mr. Gasket chrome throttle bracket similar to this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MRG-6039/
It seems like a pretty weak setup.
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I don't think there is any difference in any of those geometry corrector brackets. I just think Sonnax was the first to address the issue and then the other copycats followed suite. I'd get the cheapest one and then verify proper geometry using the following diagram.
http://www.cpttransmission.com/Files/tec2.jpg
As far as the cable bracket goes, any visible flex as you open the throttle is unacceptable. If it turns out to be nice and stiff, check the necessary geometry as shown above and discussed on the second half the of the page I linked to in my last post.
This looks like a good alternative if you don't have access to a factory bracket: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-8031/
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This should be arriving this week:
http://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/catalog/catalog_inc/viewitem.php?ITEMID=217
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That was the first solution I tried when I swapped my 305 w/Q-jet for a 350 w/Edelbrock carb. I didn't like it at all. I adjusted it by the book and played with the complete range of adjustment. I switched to the Sonnax bracket and a Sonnax TV valve spring and have been much happier. (Although 1-2 is still too harsh) Also make sure you can get WOT with that bracket, I couldn't and had to fab a small spacer to move the throttle cable mounting point farther away from the carb.
But you may have better luck, since I am using a factory '85 700 that has only been rebuilt, not updated (Transgo Reprogramming kit or the like).
Please report back with your findings.
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event, did you get the custom spring for the valve body for that bowtieoverdrive kit?
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Yes, the BTO kit came with a spring and I used it when I tried that kit. After I removed the TV made ez kit, I went to the Sonnax spring because the original stock spring had relaxed was too soft, and the BTO spring was too stiff.
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Well I installed the BTO kit (TV spring, under-the-carb mounted TV bracket, throttle cable bracket, and the geometry bracket on the side of the carb). With the throttle and TV cables on the same bracket there was quite a bit of deflection, so I modified the chrome Mr. Gasket throttle bracket that mounts on 1 carb bolt that I was using before the swap. By having the throttle cable and the TV cable isolated from each other and on seperate brackets there is no longer any deflection. I have full WOT travel without the TV cable hooked up. As soon as I hook up the TV cable no matter how I adjust it or the cam on the geometry bracket I can not pull WOT. It seems as if I am fighting that spring in the valve body. So far this setup is not working.
I have taken a couple short test drives, and so far it seems like it holds 1st too long, and when I do a medium to aggressive acceleration it doesn't downshift. It bogs like a manual in too high of a gear. If you punch it from a stop or do a light power brake it kills the motor.
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Did you hook up a pressure gauge, as they recommend, and confirm proper line pressures? Did you have a helper push the throttle (with TV cable hooked up) while you watched the TV plunger assembly for proper movement (under truck, pan off)?
Yes that spring they provide is very stiff (and also longer than the stock or sonnax spring), but the only way it could prevent WOT is if there is too much deflection of the throttle bracket or the TV cable is not self-adjusting properly (clicking to the "MAX TV" position) or both. In any case you shouldn't drive the truck until this is corrected.
Try out BTO's tech support. But it sounds very similar to the issues I was having and was not able to correct until I removed the system.
Be careful and take your time here, you can fry your 700 real fast if the TV cable is way off.
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:-\I didn't use a pressure gauge, and I didn't check for travel at the valve with the pan off.
I just spoke with BTO's tech support and explained what I have going on. He told me that I need to shorten up my accelerator cable to compensate for the added resistance of the TV system. Like I said, I have full WOT travel without the TV hooked up, but I don't with it hooked up. By using 2 seperate brackets for the throttle and the TV cables, there is no measurable deflection in the brackets. Should I try to shorten up the accelerator cable, or start shopping for different parts? What would be the best way to take up slack in the cable? The truck is definitely parked until I can get WOT with the cable hooked up.
Thanks for your help.
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I bent the rod at the back of the pedal and gained some more pull on the throttle cable. Now I can get full WOT with the TV cable attached.
When setting the TV cable with the gas pedal it still runs 1 click shy of WOT. Meaning if I set it with my foot and then go to the carb and push to WOT the adjuster clicks one more position. After manually pushing the carb to get that 1 extra click I can then reach full WOT with the pedal every time. Is this a proper setting or does it need to be set with the pedal only. Like I said, once you nudge it to get that one extra click it will open up fully with just the pedal every time.
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I have no idea why they would suggest shortening the throttle cable as the solution. Bending the pedal rod, as you did, or moving the throttle cable bracket farther away from the carb (closer to firewall) would correct a problem of limited pedal travel. When you get WOT with the pedal are you pushing hard into the carpet or is there still a little room between the pedal and the floor board? If you've got a little room, I would think getting that "one extra click" by pulling WOT at the carb would be OK. Have you driven it since making this modification?
The test I've aways heard was the proper way to tell if you've got the TV cable setup right is to fully warm the engine, put it in drive, coast up to the lowest speed where the trans automatically shifts into 2nd, then wack the throttle wide open. It should immediately downshift back into 1st. If it doesn't return to your garage.
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I actually removed the carpet for now because the pedal was making a large depression into it, possibly limiting travel. Bending the pedal rod gave me the travel that I need to achieve WOT with the pedal, but I may need to bend it even more to allow room for the carpet and insulation that I plan to put in the cab. The tech at BTO said that 60% of the vehicles that they work on are incapable of reaching WOT without adjustment of the vehicle's throttle cable.
I think that I am getting closer to where I want to be with it. I drove it tonight and it behaved closer to how I think/guess that it should. It holds each gear for a little longer than I like, and upshifts when you let off a bit, which I know is not optimal. When you accelerate aggressively it doesn't seem to like to downshift like you would want it to do when pulling out to pass on a two-lane, but it seems to get better each time I test it. So far I have taken 5 test drives of about 2 miles each since installing it, with the first 1.5 miles just taking it easy and the last 1/2 being a little more aggressive. By the book, the TV cable setting that I am looking for is either what I have now, or one click less. From what I have read here in the archives, it is better to err on the side of a tighter cable rather than loose. If BTO's brackets have the correct geometry I should be in the ballpark. I have heard alot of horror stories, and I guess that I am wondering if I am worrying too much about screwing it up, or if I should just run with it for a while and see how it goes. It's the unseen / no drastic symptoms kind of damage that I am worried about.
Thanks
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Well I took the pickup to the transmission builder yesterday to have him drive it and sign off on it for the warranty, and got the tv cable set where it needs to be. It's awesome. It's the most well behaved automatic trans vehicle I have ever owned. The shifts are firm and there is no slippage. My ZR2 blazer (which I assume has a 4L60 ? or similar OD trans) shifts all over the place at highway speeds, but the truck locks up anywhere after about 40 mph and it just glides. Then if you stomp it, it downshifts to 2nd pretty much instantly. So far the hydraulic lockup seems to be working perfectly. I was going to put the old 465 in a 76 K5 but after running this trans just a bit I think that blazer might need a 700r4 too.
Thanks guys for all your help on this project. I really appreciate it.
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Awesome, I'm glad you got it all sorted out.
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I have been having some shifting issues that my trans builder thinks it TV adjustment related, and he's not real impressed by the BTO stuff, so I switched to the Holley bracket p/n 20-121. I also put the stock spring back in. At WOT the part throttle detent valve still sticks out about 1/8". I put a vice-grip on the end of the cable at the carb to shorten it about an 1/8", and then it fully seats the valve. Does this valve need to be fully seated at WOT?
Putting the vice-grip on it to shorten it didn't affect the clicking cable adjustment. Should I make a spacer of some kind to shortne up the cable? Thanks
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I am still using the BTO plate that goes under the carb to hold the tv cable, and a cheap chrome bracket to hold the throttle cable that attaches with one carb bolt.
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How much farther can you pull the tv cable when it's at WOT? What exactly is the trans doing?
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Holding the linkage at WOT, and then pulling on the end of the cable with a pliers, I can pull the cable that additional 1/8", and then the valve in the trans is bottomed out.
It worked fine for a while and then it started to not want to downshift, like when you come out of a corner and then start accelerating again it wouldn't downshift so it kind of bogged, like a manual in too high of a gear. Then I drove about 45 miles to a friend's place, going 65 on 2-lane, and then it started chugging like an engine miss while going up a hill. I was only a mile or so from where I was going so I kept on until I got there, and then looked underneath and the truck was washed with ATF. I ran a small piece of vacuum hose from the vent on the top of the trans down to the side close to where the tv cable mounts before I installed the trans. It looked like all of the fluid came out of that vent hose. I checked the fluid and it still read right up where it's supposed to be. At this time reverse did not want to work, and you would have to rev it high to get it to lurch backwards. I let the truck sit most of the day while I sighted in my deer rifle, etc. and then I drove it home again and it was fine. Still not wanting to downshift all the time, etc. but no more overflow problems. It did seem to slip at takeoff a few times. I spoke with the builder and he said that he's never used the BTO kits and every one that he has done with a holley he has used the same part that I just put on, and that I should do the same. So, here I am.....
Does that valve need to be fully pushed in? I think it would be easy enough to take that 1/8" out the cable, but I might be missing something. Thanks for the help
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Tighten that adjustment as much as you can but it sounds like you've got an internal leak. How well do you know this builder and what are his credentials?
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As far as credentials I don't really know, except that he's ASE Master and has all kinds of transmission association type certificates framed up in his shop. I've gotten to be buds with the guy and he has hooked me up with good deals on parts, tires, etc. I know that pretty much every shop in the area sources out their work to him, so his technicians do all the other types of work and all he does is rebuild transmissions for the most part. Other than that, I can't say for sure.
So would you suggest making a spacer to take slack out of the cable so that the valve seats fully? I just put the pan back on and filled it back up, but I can still make that adjustment. If it's an internal leak, what does that entail? The trans is under warranty but I did the R&R on it, so if it needs to be pulled to fix, I would have to pull it again. If it's something in the valve body I could just bring it in and have him put it on the hoist. Is there a way to diagnose this? I don't want to call him and say "Hey my buddy on the internet says this so rip it apart and fix it", if you know what I mean. I really appreciate your help Vile, it's getting too cold out to be messing with all this, and I've spent enough money that I am growing weary of all this trouble.
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OK so he should know what he is doing then. If you check the fluid at operating temp do you see bubbles on the dipstick?
Your TV adjsutment seems right. He built it, you installed it however he should be able to verify your work and diagnose it.
From what you descirbed it sounds to me like it was in lock up in 4th and wouldn't unlock the converter and come out of 4th gear. Not being the builder I'm not sure what was actually done but it could be something as simple as the governor valve sticking.
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Well I put a few miles on it today. Checking the fluid at operating temp there is no bubbles on the dipstick, and it's not foamy looking at all. It seems to drive better than it did before, but it seems to want to upshift really early (about 1100 rpm) and not hold rpm too long without shifting up, even when you really stomp on it. It doesn't really want to downshift when you get after it either. I'm not really sure though what to expect from it. I haven't made any other adjustments on the cable.
What would have caused the overflow of fluid that I had just the one time?
Should I shorten that cable so the valve is fully pushed in at WOT or leave it as is?
Vile, when you build a 700 with a Holley carb what brackets and spring do you use?
What is the truth about what BTO calls 'SSS' short spring syndrome, and is their longer throttle valve spring really required?
Should I just put a q-jet and stock bracket back on it?
Thanks for the help. I'm about fit to be tied with this, but I hope that all this can help somebody else in the future...
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New symptoms driving it this morning:
It still shifts way too early. I kept it in D, disabling 4th gear. It would shift by 900 to 1100 rpm 1-2-3 and fall completely on its face in third gear doing 15 mph and lugging the motor because of the high gear, and wouldn't downshift. Then, every light or stop sign that I pulled up to, as I would be braking up to a stop, when my forward motion was nearly stopped, the truck would jerk. It felt very similar to engine braking, like if you were coasting to a stop with a manual trans, put it in granny low and dumped the clutch. It never did this before.
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Something was done wrong on the overhaul. Take it back to him and let him fix it this time.
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I did like you said and tightened up the adjustment as much as I could. I didn't make a spacer for the cable, I just pushed the adjuster all the way towards the firewall and then instead of turning the linkage to set the cable I just got in and drove. It performed really well, but after stomping it the self adjuster moved and it started to not act as well. I reset it towards the firewall, and went through the same motions. I called the builder and told him what I had done and what it's doing, and he suspects that there could be a crack in the valve body or an internal leak. I'm bringing it in.
Thanks
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Something was causing it to lock up in 2nd, and wouldn't allow it to downshift. Now it has a new valve body and it works alot better than it did before.
For the record, right now I'm using the stock TV spring, stock cable, and Holley part numbers 20-95 & 20-121. The Holley parts are strong, easier to install, and about 1/3 of the price of the Bowtie Overdrives kit. If anyone is looking for the kit though, it's for sale ;)