73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Interior & Equipment => Power Windows & Door Locks => Topic started by: 75chevyk20 on October 27, 2013, 03:43:43 PM
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Hey so I'm new to this thing, this is actually my first post. I was wondering if anyone out there had a wiring schematic or knowledge of the power windows and door lock wiring on a '77 c20. After my wife backed my tow mirror into a poll, ripping holes in my door, I found a set of good doors with collapsible mirrors, for $30. This set of doors is out of a '77 c20 with power windows and door locks. To wire these up is it just a matter of running power and ground or do I need to buy any relays or other miscellaneous parts to get these working? Any help is appreciated.
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The wiring diagrams are in the Tech section along with the manuals for each year.
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If you want the windows to move at a slowest speed possible then factory wiring will work great but If you would rather upgrade a little since you are running wires either way, I'd recommend relays. Currently the factory switches carry al of the load and crate a lot of voltage and amperage drop just simply sue to their design which is poor if you have ever opened one up. Four relays and a ground off the motor and you will one have fast powerful window action but also the electric motors will last longer due to not being starved for power. I will look up the wiring diagram the I'm doing and you can see how simple it is. Jusst make sure that you get quality relays...its a must.
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Here's the diagram that I'm using and many have had a lot of success with. It's simple to se how using the relays to send full power is a drastic benefit over the factory switch. the best thing is that you maintain the switches and use them as switching power for the relays.
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Ok, so after getting farther along with this install with my truck I noticed a problem with the above wiring diagram. It may actually work for the intended vehicles but the ground from the motor to the frame will not work to complete the circuit in the type of motors on our trucks. Don't worry, I found the problem and the simple solution as well.
Using 5-pin relays allows terminal 87a to be connected to terminal 30 when the relay is de-energized. By simply running a from 87a to the truck will complete the path for the opposing relay's circuit.
I modified the wiring diagram to reflect a circuit that will actually work.
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Thinking I may try this.
What's under the hood??? If you have to ask maybe we shouldn't race...
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I instituted that change about seven years ago using my own design. First time in the life of the truck the windows worked correctly! Highly recommended modification! ;)
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Thanks I will definitely be doing this! What is that existing relay there? What do you use to mount all these relays?
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Also to wire in the passenger side window switch would you just splice in to the wire coming from terminal 86 on the third and fourth relay so it goes to the master switch on drivers door and to the passenger side window switch?
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Thanks I will definitely be doing this! What is that existing relay there? What do you use to mount all these relays?
The relay at the top of the diagram doesn't exist in our trucks. In the original factory wiring, power (B+) runs directly from the fuse box. Refer to the wiring diagram, below.
Use interlocking sockets (http://terminalsupplyco.com/Store/Product.aspx?pc=HE-87122B) to mount the relays under the dash. Use 10-gauge wire to connect relay terminals 30 to the motors (or match the existing 12-gauge wire size). Use 10-gauge wire to bring fused B+ into relay terminals 87. Use 10-gauge wire between relay terminals 87a and ground. And, use the existing cab harness to control the relays (terminals 85 & 86).
Also to wire in the passenger side window switch would you just splice in to the wire coming from terminal 86 on the third and fourth relay so it goes to the master switch on drivers door and to the passenger side window switch?
For the passenger window, disconnect the brown and dark blue wire pair from the right window motor and reconnect them to the control circuits of relays 3 and 4. For the driver window, disconnect the brown and dark blue wire pair from the left window motor and reconnect them to the control circuits of relays 1 and 2. Connecting the wires in this fashion maintains the original functionality of the left and right window switches.
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I did mine exactly like the diagram above by using the existing switch power as switching power for the relay and ran a new positive to 87 and grounded 87a. ooooh, the difference. without the truck running the driverside window wouldn't even roll down (that's with a switch that is less than 6months old). The passenger side is getting it baby... either way will work but I'm drawing power directly from an isolated positive post under the hood with the alternator supplying directly to it as well as the voltage sensing line attached to it. Just make sure that you ground 87a for a true ground because that is where the switches fail. If I can figure out how I will put up a video so you can see drivers vs passenger window.
As for the driverside control for the passenger window, you can just use the leads tied in with the switching power from the passenger switch. I pilled the wires directly out of the passenger switch assembly and crimped and soldered female ends..less wires to run. I modified the other diagram to give you a better picture of what you are actually dealing with.
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Interlocking sockets.
Then get relays with mounting tab.
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bd, where do you get good diagrams like that. The best I got is old Haynes repair manual.
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bd, where do you get good diagrams like that. The best I got is old Haynes repair manual.
The wiring diagram I posted is from a factory manual. I posted it just so 75chevyk20 would have access to the original wiring diagram for windows and door locks for comparison purposes.
I agree that the newly added B+ feeding relay terminals 87 should enter the cab via a dedicated, protected 10-gauge lead from the engine compartment as you have done. I think the only point on which we differ is in wiring the control circuits for relays 3 & 4. You propose running redundant wires from both the driver and passenger switches to control the two right window relays, whereas I propose controlling relays 3 & 4 solely from the passenger switch. The difference in approach is subtle with identical outcomes. ...Although, your method might allow for easier diagnosis should the window ever stop functioning, Heaven forbid. ;)
Either way the wiring modification makes a tremendous improvement to window function! :D
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Oh yea...big difference. I actually only ran two wires from the right switch to the relays. the other two were the factory wires that originally ran from left window to the right switch. I simply removed the driver side control from the right switch and pulled them back into the cab, splicing them into the same wires that I ran from the right switch to the 85 on relays 3 & 4. But like you said it aids in trouble shooting this way. Most likely it will be a relay because most but the cheapest relay they can find...which I am guilty of as well many times.
75chevyk20 I deleted the first diagram so its not confusing. I also edited the correct one to show the passenger switch and the only wires you will have run into the passenger door. Any questions or issues just ask. Oh and don't get the cheapest relays, Bosch is likely the best ones to get and make sure that are 5-pin.
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I went across the street to Napa to look up some relays and sockets and these are what I found.
Echlin Brand
Relay - AR143 $13 each
Socket - EC23 $13 each
This puts you just over $100 plus some wire and a fuse to accomplish this. I think while I have my truck disassembled I'm gonna wire this up.
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/4X-5-PIN-SPDT-AUTOMOTIVE-CAR-RELAY-12VDC-NO-12V-40A-NC-40-14VDC-AMP-SOCKET-VOLT-/261286970159?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3cd5eac32f&vxp=mtr
Get 4 with pigtails for under $12 bucks
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This is why I posted my find. I was hoping someone else would post other options. Does anyone know the quality of the above relays?
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Thanks for all the help I appreciate it. As I read on I'm starting to get a bit confused, but this weekend I think I'll just dive into it and see what I can figure out with those diagrams. It's a little embarrassing I am starting to get lost with what you guys are talking about because I am a mechanic but electrical has never been my strong suite. Do you think those relays on eBay are decent ones? I think for that price I will order them and if you guys think the relays are junk I will just use the sockets and buy good relays.
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Just finished wiring up the relays for my windows. It is amazing how much better they work. Truly unbelievable.
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Would you post some pics. I am curious to see how you mounted the relays and where you spliced in the wires
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I wanted to keep the factory style connectors inside the switch connector so I just used butt connectors and solder. Once re wrapped it looks factory
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Wires rerouted...
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Bosch is likely the best ones to get and make sure that are 5-pin.
Just so you know Bosch relays got bought out by Tyco if I am not mistaken. So I found these which are Tyco/Bosch and are a good price for 5 relays and harnesses.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-PACK-Tyco-Bosch-Relays-SPDT-12-Volt-with-Socket-/190974247644?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c76f3c2dc
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here's how I mounted the relays. I cut out an aluminum plate and drilled holes to mount them. from there I just used Velcro to mount them to the air handler.
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plate and plate with Velcro and relays attached
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mounted on right side of air handler. A little warpping and loom and it will look good.
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I am in the middle of implementing this wiring configuration. I have only one question. Am I reading the diagram correct that terminals 87A and 85 on all four relays are grounded?
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I am in the middle of implementing this wiring configuration. I have only one question. Am I reading the diagram correct that terminals 87A and 85 on all four relays are grounded?
Post a link to what diagram you are referring to please.
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I am in the middle of implementing this wiring configuration. I have only one question. Am I reading the diagram correct that terminals 87A and 85 on all four relays are grounded?
(http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=27076.0;attach=24190;image)
Correct. But, there is a caveat: Are the relays you're using surge clamped with a diode internally connected between terminals 85 and 86?
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BD,is the air handler where you located your relays too, like Frotoside? Finding space under the dash for mounting the relays is a real problem in my truck.
On edit, I think I'll put my relays on the L/H side under the hood opener cable.(Excuse the rusty panel-I have just removed all of my interior trim for a re-color job).
(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/Dnstclr/IMG_2031_zps278cb920.jpg) (http://s227.photobucket.com/user/Dnstclr/media/IMG_2031_zps278cb920.jpg.html)
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This is what I purchased. Exactly what was pictured in the previous post
http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=27076.0;attach=24185;image
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Another question. Should the blue and white striped wire and the brown wire coming from the dual driver's side switch to relays 3 and 4 (for passenger up and down) be connected only to those relays? In other words, do I need to make sure I don't just splice into the factory wires with wires to coming from terminal 86 on relays 3 & 4 and leave the rest of each original wire terminating wherever they originally go? Does that make sense?
http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=27076.0;attach=24191;image
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BD,is the air handler where you located your relays too, like Frotoside? Finding space under the dash for mounting the relays is a real problem in my truck.
On edit, I think I'll put my relays on the L/H side under the hood opener cable.(Excuse the rusty panel-I have just removed all of my interior trim for a re-color job).
@ Don -
It is pretty tight up in there. My relays are nestled high up at the top of each kick panel just below the dash shell. I have to remove the instrument cluster and glovebox to access them. Fortunately, relays rarely require service....
This is what I purchased. Exactly what was pictured in the previous post
http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=27076.0;attach=24185;image
@ jpatters13 -
It's difficult to be certain from the small image of the relay, but it doesn't appear to be 'clamped,' so you needn't be concerned. [FYI - diode clamped relays require terminals 85 & 86 be connected into a circuit with careful attention to +/- circuit polarity].
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I am in the middle of implementing this wiring configuration. I have only one question. Am I reading the diagram correct that terminals 87A and 85 on all four relays are grounded?
(http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=27076.0;attach=24190;image)
Correct. But, there is a caveat: Are the relays you're using surge clamped with a diode internally connected between terminals 85 and 86?
This diagram does not appear correct to me. The passenger side switch isn't going to operate the system considering this design requires B+ from the switch. It also has two contradicting statements. It says to connect the switch wires to cavity 85 of relay 3 and 4 and then cavity 86 of 3 and 4 in the other statement. I think we need to update this diagram correctly and get one pinned in the tech section.
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It's approaching two years since I examined that diagram. You're right! All of the factory wiring that connects to the right switch has been omitted from the drawing, but still exists in practice. IIRC, frotosride said that he did that to keep the diagram from appearing quite so cluttered. For anyone not knowing the original wiring is still connected though not illustrated, the omission makes the diagram virtually unusable. Frustrating!
The most straightforward modification would be to leave all of the factory wiring as is and just reroute the motor wires from the switches to the control terminals of the relays. Then the relays would power the motors via a single, dedicated 30-amp breaker and 10-gauge wire pairs. That would entail stuffing four additional wires through each doorjamb conduit to/from the relays mounted under the dash - two near each door. Thoughts?
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The most straightforward modification would be to leave all of the factory wiring as is and just reroute the motor wires from the switches to the control terminals of the relays. Then the relays would power the motors via a single, dedicated 30-amp breaker and 10-gauge wire pairs. That would entail stuffing four additional wires through each doorjamb conduit to/from the relays mounted under the dash - two near each door. Thoughts?
I don't see why that wouldn't work. Sounds like the smartest and easiest thing to do.
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I'll take a look at it too and compare the factory wiring diagram when I get a chance.
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The most straightforward modification would be to leave all of the factory wiring as is and just reroute the motor wires from the switches to the control terminals of the relays. Then the relays would power the motors via a single, dedicated 30-amp breaker and 10-gauge wire pairs. That would entail stuffing four additional wires through each doorjamb conduit to/from the relays mounted under the dash - two near each door. Thoughts?
I don't see why that wouldn't work. Sounds like the smartest and easiest thing to do.
This is exactly what I did since the passenger switch received power from the drivers switch. The only issue is that there has to be a diode in both passenger relays but only on the wires coming from the driver's side switch. Otherwise there will be feed back and blow the fuse.
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This is exactly what I did since the passenger switch received power from the drivers switch. The only issue is that there has to be a diode in both passenger relays but only on the wires coming from the driver's side switch. Otherwise there will be feed back and blow the fuse.
Only, that isn't what you did. Referring to your diagram, by connecting the driver (master) switch directly to the right window relays (R3 and R4), you rewired the master and passenger switches into a crossed circuit configuration. That configuration shunts power directly to ground through the master switch when the passenger switch is actuated - hence, the need for isolation diodes. You introduced the complication when you added the two jumpers between the tan and dark blue/white wires from the master switch and R3/R4.
If you hadn't jumpered the driver switch to R3 and R4, but instead, simply rerouted the power leads that connect to the right motor directly to the R3 and R4 relay control terminals and allowed the driver switch to operate the passenger window motor through the passenger window switch, the short circuit never would have occurred.
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Agreed. BD do you have time to redraw the schematic correctly? I pulled the clean oe diagrams up and will post them
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4 Door
(https://drive.google.com/uc?id=0B8yVwIOnwzXXR0ZTc1FGS3V2dDA)
2 Door
(https://drive.google.com/uc?id=0B8yVwIOnwzXXSjVVWDFlNUJ1eU0)
Power Locks
(https://drive.google.com/uc?id=0B8yVwIOnwzXXelBTOGI0ano3NmM)
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I'll fiddle with it, but won't promise a quick turnaround. I'm in the throws of my busiest season, now. Unfortunately, the CAD program I use is proprietary and few would be able to view the diagram. I'll need to use an alternate approach or determine a way to image the output file.
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I'll wait untill a clear and correct redesign is presented, when that is available, I will do the window relay upgrade for my truck according to the new diagram. Until then, the stock setup is still working just fine.
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I'll wait untill a clear and correct redesign is presented, when that is available, I will do the window relay upgrade for my truck according to the new diagram. Until then, the stock setup is still working just fine.
Yep! That's my thoughts on it exactly! I've inquired about this in the past and got different schematics and answers. I would want to do it right the first time I tear into it! Right now though, all functions as it should, albeit slowly. Also, I just don't have the time to tear into it! But all the help and opinions offered on this are always great!
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I run the power window circuit from a dedicated # 12 wire . From the firewall junction thru a 30 amp breaker to a ign powered 30 amp relay to the window circuit connector.
Works fine for now. My setup is from a 78 that I added to my 74.
Will add the window relay mod eventually as well as the headlight relay mod.
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I was going to get new headlights and do the relay also with tax money but decided to rebuild/replace the entire suspension. Probably would have been alot cheaper to just do the headlights but I tend to favor throwing 2k at this truck every chance I get.....
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This is exactly what I did since the passenger switch received power from the drivers switch. The only issue is that there has to be a diode in both passenger relays but only on the wires coming from the driver's side switch. Otherwise there will be feed back and blow the fuse.
Only, that isn't what you did. Referring to your diagram, by connecting the driver (master) switch directly to the right window relays (R3 and R4), you rewired the master and passenger switches into a crossed circuit configuration. That configuration shunts power directly to ground through the master switch when the passenger switch is actuated - hence, the need for isolation diodes. You introduced the complication when you added the two jumpers between the tan and dark blue/white wires from the master switch and R3/R4.
If you hadn't jumpered the driver switch to R3 and R4, but instead, simply rerouted the power leads that connect to the right motor directly to the R3 and R4 relay control terminals and allowed the driver switch to operate the passenger window motor through the passenger window switch, the short circuit never would have occurred.
Oh the things you see clearer when someone removed from the situation gives some input. I may just rewire it like that since I have yet to put the diodes in.
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Just circling back to this now since i had some time and just finished redoing mine in my truck. You need to have the power feed on the passenger side switch and use two diodes in order for the passenger switch to operate. They work excellent
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I'm going to have to come back to this one when I actually get time to put this differential back together but I was sure that it needed at least one diode. Thanks maybe sometime this summer a passenger can roll down that window instead of me....maybe!
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Just found this thread and got lost somewhere in the middle! I have a 78 Silverado with the old style power windows and no power locks. But I got a deal on both doors from an 85 or 86. Don't remember now. The new doors have both power windows and door locks and I'd like to make everything work. I can muddle my way thru a wiring diagram but still struggle sometimes with electrical. Should I try to use some or all of the original window harness or just run all new with relays? I replaced the window motors a couple years ago but had to order them because no one carried them. Apparently an older version. Any help or advise is appreciated!
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Set everything up factory especially if you are not proficient with electrical. For the PL harness, you need the PL relay too which is located to the right of the steering column on the metal bracket. Either find a donor or buy a new harness.
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What a cool thread! Getting somewhat lost trying to read all the wiring discussions. So has a clear, working schematic been posted yet to wire in the relays?
My truck has the older style switches and motors. The drivers side one was replaced and is definitely faster than it used to be but my switch is finicky now. I have to really push the switch 'in' to get it work. The passenger side is a slow as it always has been and I have to rock it up and down to get it to go up, otherwise it needs a push!
Are the window switches serviceable? Just wondering why mine is being touchy now. They are way more pricey than a 82-up switch for some reason. Can I just retrofit a newer switch and harness to the older wiring?
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Dorman sells replacement switches HELP! ones work great.
I didn't look through this thread thoroughly but IIRC the diagram posted was flawed in that it was missing a power feed on the pass side and the diodes. remind me tomorrow and I will redraw it and post it in here. Long day today, I'm toast.
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Thanks Vile. And if I'm understanding this right, the 4 relays are being put in to provide power to both sides of each motor, so that they go up and down. The window switch then just becomes the trigger for each relay, depending on whether the switch is operated in the up and down position.
Diodes as I recall are for allowing power to flow only 1 way, like a check valve on a pipe. I'm curious where the diodes need to go.
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Thanks Vile. And if I'm understanding this right, the 4 relays are being put in to provide power to both sides of each motor, so that they go up and down. The window switch then just becomes the trigger for each relay, depending on whether the switch is operated in the up and down position.
Diodes as I recall are for allowing power to flow only 1 way, like a check valve on a pipe....
Yes, to all of this ^^^^^.
...I'm curious where the diodes need to go.
Is the suspense nail-biting? 8)
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Ok so I am working on installing power windows and door locks in my '87 stepside and I find this thread. I was getting excited about having a good solution to the wiring harness upgrade but as it turns out close but no cigar. It would be real nice to have a wiring diagram that works. And maybe a part number for the diodes if they are needed.
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BD and I compared notes and have similar drawings. They function the same way either way but we both agreed that the gains for the extra amount of work unless you are doing a complete replacement and all new wires that it wasn't something we wanted others to think would be a problem solver. The factory setup works perfectly and is generally troubled by mechanical resistance. I'd hate to see someone go through all of this and have the same end result. a quick test would be to actuate your power windows directly from your battery and see if the problem goes away. If not you can bet that the problem is mechanical ie seals, track, regulator, worn out motor etc. I suppose there is no harm in us posting the relay powered diagram that works but I highly advise that you try to fix the factory system correctly first.
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Power Window Relay Retrofit (http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?topic=36005.msg323036#msg323036)