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73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Engine/Drivetrain => Topic started by: Spool on February 24, 2020, 07:16:36 AM

Title: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: Spool on February 24, 2020, 07:16:36 AM
Hey Guys,

73 C20 here.
I’ve been away from the forum and my truck since Xmas, but wanted to ask if anyone had any insight on this...

My truck suddenly started having trouble engaging first gear when cold; not even typically cold winter morning, but just not yet warmed up.

It seems to have gotten worse in about two three weeks time, when I would have to give an excessive amount of gas to pull out of a parking spot and get going.

Any ideas as to what would cause this, and/or thoughts on what to check first?
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: bd on February 24, 2020, 07:51:35 AM
Welcome back.  Check the fluid level in park with the engine running and warm.  Is it bright red or brown?  Does it smell burned?  When were the fluid and filter last serviced?
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: JohnnyPopper on February 24, 2020, 03:07:31 PM
Sounds like my TH350

It would take about 4-5 seconds to engage in first or reverse.

It needed service, I had changed the filter a couple of years ago, so I just used a clear rubber hose and an extractor (reverse model of a grease gun)

It was really dirty oil, not burned but dirty.

Refilled, ran for about 15 mins to cycle out the torque converter, then repeated.

Didn't have to pull the pan, works great now.
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: Spool on March 22, 2020, 10:39:06 AM
Thanks guys.
I was expecting to return home to LA a week after posting this, but Corona has me staying abroad longer than expected.
(Not a terrible thing, quite lovely actually.)

I look forward to getting back to the truck though.

I'll reach back once I return how to the truck.
Thanks again.
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: Spool on December 21, 2020, 02:18:48 PM
It's been a year, but I'm back on the truck.

I started a different post about what to check after a long period of not driving:
http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?topic=38471.0 (http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?topic=38471.0)

I'm gonna take the truck for a small drive this afternoon to see how it feels, but inevitably take it to the shop around the corner.

Does anyone have estimates on what a transmission service may cost? Under $1,000 or completely depends on what's what?
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: JohnnyPopper on December 21, 2020, 02:41:06 PM
If they want to charge 1K I'll come over and only charge $950.00...  8)

Depending on the shop, I cant see it going over 200.00. Very simple work.

On my K10, I changed the filter and oil, now I use an clear rubber tube that I stick down the filler pipe, and use an oil extractor. Same shape as a grease gun, but has a front metal tube fitting and a reverse plunger for suction. I measure what I extract and then refill when she's empty. About 15 minutes of work.
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: Spool on December 21, 2020, 03:02:39 PM
Haha. Nice.
I'll let you know how it goes.
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: Mr Diesel on December 21, 2020, 03:24:24 PM
It is very easy to drain and refill the transmission. Worst part is the mess.

I have begun adding drain plugs to all my transmission pans, just to make the job less messy. Also makes it real easy to just drain and change the oil if I feel like skipping the filter.

I always use a thin amount of rtv on the pan gasket too, just because I hate any leaks that tend to develop and nag you later.
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: Spool on December 21, 2020, 05:00:17 PM
Thanks, Mr. Diesel. That's a good tip.

Funny- I get the truck ready to drive, drive around a bit and of course first gear is engaging like there wasn't a problem last year.

I just dropped it off at the shop though around the corner- have him look everything over since it's sat for a year just to be safe.

Steering was tight too- maybe power steering fluid. (Making that whining noise on turns.)
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: JohnnyPopper on December 21, 2020, 06:19:32 PM
Low fluid in the steering pump, Your mechanic should catch it.
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: Spool on December 22, 2020, 03:20:43 PM
Update:
Heard back from the mechanic.

To the point of this thread:
-It definitely needs a transmission service. My dipstick read the level was fine, but he's telling me
that the pan is leaking and needs a new gasket + filter.
-He'll replace the transmission mount as well.

To the point of having my truck serviced after a year of sitting idle:
-Gonna check the power steering pump. It's leaking and dripping on my gearbox.
Fingers crossed the gearbox is good, cause I just replaced that last summer.
-Gonna replace the power steering belt too.

-Valve gaskets... (I had a rocker arm job before I left- I already need new gaskets?)

He's gonna do all this for ~800.

He made mention of my sway bar. I knew it needed attention back when I replaced the upper control arm.
He said he could replace the sway bar bushings on both sides bringing the total to ~900.

Lastly, my differential is leaking fluid onto my drum breaks.
I don't know how bad it is, but he scoffed when I asked if we could do it all for less than $1000.
He's gonna call me back with an answer, but made mention that the drum breaks in the back would be about $450 on their own-
If so, I'll hold off on that one.
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: JohnnyPopper on December 22, 2020, 06:09:44 PM
Valve cover gasket 1 year old probably only need to be re-tightened, if at all. Gently torque them so as not to deform.

450 seems fair on the axle seals, there's a lot to getting them out. May as well replace the axle bearings while you have them out, esp if original.
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: Spool on December 22, 2020, 06:36:59 PM
Do you think replacing the axle bearings while he's down there would increase the cost much?
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: JohnnyPopper on December 22, 2020, 07:37:41 PM
I had my diff changed out from a 3.73 to a 3.41:1, dropped my highway RPM by 500.

While in there, I had them redo the bearing, all in 750.00.
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: Spool on December 23, 2020, 12:43:39 PM
The bearings are new to me. I found a video to help me understand them.

What is the purpose of the rear wheel bearings?

And you dropping your highway RPM is also a gas saver too, no?
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: JohnnyPopper on December 23, 2020, 09:15:11 PM
Yes, great video, just watched.

I'm getting 15 MPG at 2500 RPM, with a 800' hill between my office and home.
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: bd on December 23, 2020, 11:08:44 PM
The wheel bearings support the mass of the vehicle and allow the axles to rotate freely with minimal friction. 

The design of vintage GM outer axle bearings relies on the axles to serve as the inner races of the bearings.  That is, the rollers of the outboard bearings ride directly against the smoothly machined and case hardened surfaces of the axle shafts just inboard of the axle flanges. 

When servicing axle seals and bearings it is crucial to inspect the axles as well as the bearings for visible damage (image).  Axle seal leakage often occurs when a bearing and axle have reached the end of their useful service lives and either allow excess radial (side-to-side) play in the axle shaft or metal particles spall and flake from the bearing surfaces to contaminate and wear the seal lip.

Is there any unusual noise emanating from the rear axle?  Because of the ages and varied histories of 40+ year old trucks, I recommend capturing the differential oil in a clean pan and inspecting it in bright sunlight for a pearlescent sheen.  Next, drag a clean magnet through the oil.  If the oil appears pearly or the magnet is coated in a fine metallic goo or metal grains, be prepared to completely disassemble and inspect the drive axle internal components for excess wear.  If the oil is metal free, there is much less call for concern and you can focus on the axles, bearings and seals.
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: Spool on December 24, 2020, 07:50:39 AM
Thanks Johnny,
That's incredible! 15mpg...
That's already double what I get on the highway.

BD, good to hear from you- it's been a long time. Hope you've been well.
Your post scares me, as I'm already racking up a bill close to $1500 on this job if I include the bearings and axle seals.

I'm not the one doing the service, I could ask the mechanic to inspect as you suggested, but I'd be looking at an additional what- $1000 on top of it if the axle itself needs to be replaced?
And then, if the axle needs to be replaced, I'm not also gonna have to replace the differential/pumpkin itself, would I?

What would the pros/cons be of doing the bearings and axle seals, but leaving a corroded axle for a few months?
I'd obviously save the cost now to postpone for a few months, but the cons would be what?
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: philo_beddoe on December 24, 2020, 08:08:31 AM
These big jobs, if repaired properly, are one-time expenses that should last for many many years.  A new truck payment is what $800/month for 5 or 6 years? Repairing an older truck then driving it is fun. That perspective always makes me feel better.
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: bd on December 24, 2020, 10:53:32 AM
These big jobs, if repaired properly, are one-time expenses that should last for many many years.  A new truck payment is what $800/month for 5 or 6 years? Repairing an older truck then driving it is fun. That perspective always makes me feel better.

This ^^^^^.


I didn't intend to paint a picture quite that foreboding, so don't be coaxed to the edge of a cliff.  The point is to be aware of the potential for unforeseen issues and be prepared ahead of time so as not to be blindsided or caught short and left gasping.  Stay on top of it with a plan and it will amount to maintenance rather than a frantic money-fest. 

That said, if the axle is damaged, replace it along with the bearing and seal at the same time.  Bearings require smooth surfaces to function properly and provide extended service lives.  A rough surface can damage a new bearing in short order.  If oil has oozed past the seal for long enough, in sufficient quantity, the brake shoes will need replacement and everything thoroughly degreased.  The good news is that unless the drive axle has been growling, chances are high that a new seal alone will resolve the leak.  Just be prepared for more once it is taken apart.  Maintaining old equipment can be a disadvantage if you have to pay someone else to do all of the work.
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: Spool on January 01, 2021, 08:01:36 PM
Hey Guys.

Got the full service done. Replaced the bearings in there. I wasn't aware that each side had a set of bearings.
Transmission runs just as it should with no more trouble engaging first.
The mechanic said there was no damage to the axel as well.
He also completely disregarded the sway bar bushing repair, but didn't charge me for it either.

I've attached a screenshot to show the costs of repairs if it helps anyone in the future.
Bearings cost $50 a piece, to a total of $200.
Labor on the transmission was $250.

But does anyone have an idea as to why the engine is now smoking?
https://youtu.be/qWeqwowSEA0

The truck did sit for a year collecting dust & webs.
Yet, the shop cleaned everything really nice when replacing the valve cover gaskets.
I can't see anything touching the headers, and have heat sleeves for the cables near by.
Does anything come to mind as to what it could be?
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: JohnnyPopper on January 02, 2021, 01:44:47 AM
Where is the smoke originating?

Out of Tailpipe?

Exhaust manifold?

Somewhere under the chassis?

Front Seat?

Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: Spool on January 02, 2021, 08:36:14 AM
Here's the video I posted above:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWeqwowSEA0&feature=youtu.be

It's kinda hard to tell where it's coming from as it's not exactly billowing out from a specific source.
Yet, it's the drivers side of the engine near the headers.

I've checked to see if my cables were burning, they're not.
And at first I thought maybe the mechanic split some oil on the block or headers that was just now burning off, but it also doesn't seem to be that either.
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: frotosride on January 02, 2021, 03:39:48 PM
Honestly because of the way the smoke rides straight up and isn't puffing as if there is an exhaust leak, something is burning off. Check your around your valve covers and the gasket. make sure they are tight. Use an inspection mirror and look just behind your drivers side valve cover for the oil pressure switch that controls the fuel pump power. See if that tube, fitting or sensor is leaking.
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: JohnnyPopper on January 02, 2021, 04:34:16 PM
Honestly because of the way the smoke rides straight up and isn't puffing as if there is an exhaust leak, something is burning off. Check your around your valve covers and the gasket. make sure they are tight. Use an inspection mirror and look just behind your drivers side valve cover for the oil pressure switch that controls the fuel pump power. See if that tube, fitting or sensor is leaking.

What the heck???
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: Spool on January 02, 2021, 04:44:14 PM
I got under it today after driving for a mile or two.
There's oil dripping onto the driver's side header.

It's coming from the back end, so it maybe something silly like a loose oil filter or perhaps they botched the valve cover gasket job.

I'm just gonna bring it back to the shop on Monday and have them fix it.
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: frotosride on January 02, 2021, 05:37:57 PM
Honestly because of the way the smoke rides straight up and isn't puffing as if there is an exhaust leak, something is burning off. Check your around your valve covers and the gasket. make sure they are tight. Use an inspection mirror and look just behind your drivers side valve cover for the oil pressure switch that controls the fuel pump power. See if that tube, fitting or sensor is leaking.

What the heck???

Jonny, ya got me. thats my senior moment for the day....
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: JohnnyPopper on January 02, 2021, 07:46:09 PM
As long as it’s one a day! LOL


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Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: Spool on January 04, 2021, 09:25:24 PM
The oil was coming from the valve cover gasket they just replaced...

They're having trouble finding bushings for the sway bar. Does anyone have a lead?
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: TexasRed on January 04, 2021, 10:33:12 PM
summit racing? or rock auto?
Title: Re: Troubling engaging when cold.
Post by: frotosride on January 07, 2021, 10:50:08 AM
As long as it’s one a day! LOL
Call Chris (captkaos) he should be able to get them. Did you check the store here on the site? Energy suspension has poly ones in red and black. I'm sure he can order them.

http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?action=profile;u=9
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