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73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Performance => Topic started by: jeremy.farlow on April 17, 2020, 08:53:39 PM

Title: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: jeremy.farlow on April 17, 2020, 08:53:39 PM
I’m not sure which one I’m cheering for; end of virus quarantine or end of my virus project. I can’t call how much longer before I can go back to work, but I don’t see much more than 4-6 weeks before I should be driving my project around.

This post will be the beginning of the end.

I’ve got an 0.060” over block; decked and line-bored at the machine shop with this stuff:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200418/138e666ded369a5f4f8cddc7e61093d4.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200418/e85ed343f23e245423148b2be116c123.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200418/8b693595e57a59febd6035b5aa755f48.jpg)
Way nicer than I will likely ever need.
Eagle forged reciprocating assembly.
Forged crank, forged H-beam rods, forged pistons.

I’ve never built an engine this big... I’m excited to see how loud forged pistons are when they’re 4.310” in diameter, stroking four inches. Slap, slap, slap.

I can’t show pictures of the heads... because I don’t have them. Last contact from AFR says they’re on their mills and likely to ship a week from today.




The block will be done by then. And I’ve got this stuff ready to go:

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200418/c908fdfe56526383c26f247b3c60ee95.jpg)

Edelbrock pro-flo. Oval ports.

This stuff:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200418/09dc55efef3387770bc14b59d7b58fae.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200418/b6d93c7b5beaa8f0656249bdbc53df8a.jpg)

The Edelbrock kit has the 825 HP injectors, but I don’t expect anything close to that. The cam is a factory replacement grind... but it’s a roller cam. The rockers are chrome-moly... valve gear isn’t super trick. No titanium retainers or sodium-filled valves or beehive wound triple springs. The engine is going in a truck. It’s not gonna rev to 6500 revs.

My goal has always been efficiency... to the degree a big block Chevy can ever claim that. I’ll be happy if I can consistently get 11+mpg combined.

#lowexpectations



Jeremy
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: Da67goatman on April 18, 2020, 12:14:46 PM
I like it so far.  Keep us posted.
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: jeremy.farlow on April 19, 2020, 10:14:29 PM
Beyond the mechanics of building AN engine, I’m quickly reaching the extents of my preexisting knowledge. The Edelbrock system is ostensibly plug and play, but I’m starting to worry about how well it will play with the rest of the factory electronics.

I started with a bone stock, 1991 2500 Suburban. It came with the TBI 454 and a 4L80-e. I have the factory wiring and troubleshooting guide, courtesy of this forum. The one thing it won’t tell me is what happens if/when I completely remove the factory ECM from the equation.

The easiest solution seems to be a standalone transmission controller.

I guess I’m seeking either validation that a standalone tranny controller is the way to go. Or absolutely not...



Jeremy
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: jeremy.farlow on May 06, 2020, 01:41:39 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200506/8ecdfddd743d0efb8c360cea8e7b638b.jpg)
Still playing the waiting game. As I’m getting closer I knocked the dust off of the Edelbrock instructions. it’s as painless as the directions make it seem.


Updates to come as I’m able.




Jeremy
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: Shifty on May 06, 2020, 04:17:09 PM
Still watching your cool project!  :D
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: jeremy.farlow on May 06, 2020, 06:04:03 PM
I’ve noticed and I truly appreciate the encouragement. Overall I’m still SUPER grateful to have had something to occupy my time and keep me away from the news... the bad news... I’m HOPING that when we get to the other side of this virus thing I can look back and my only regret will be taking the month of February off work. I budgeted the money for this project pre-virus...

All the same, and all things equal, I’m still very much an instant gratification type of guy. And as I’m starting to think (too hard) about the money I’ve spent building my truck I really hate the money that is just... out there. At this point I’ve BOUGHT THREE sets of heads for this truck. I have only one set in hand.

To explain: I saw the writing on the wall the first week of March and pulled the trigger on a BIG order with Summit. Literally the most money I’ve EVER spent at one time on anything other than property. I did so because I knew if I waited any longer I wouldn’t do it. Because Summit is only 35 miles away I trusted their system and made some compromises with regard to what they (claimed they) had in stock. One of the compromises I made was to get Pro-Comp heads... as Summit claimed they were in stock and ready for pickup. I didn’t notice that the Pro-Comp heads were literally the only head offering priced and sold as a pair... so I ordered TWO... The goal was to run down to Summit in McDonough one time, get EVERYTHING I needed, and weather the storm.

For those getting bored with my verbosity:

I WILL NOT EVER SPEND ANOTHER DIME AT SUMMIT RACING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here’s why:
As I said, I made several selections based on availability. I built an order to build an engine, with nearly everything but the block... reciprocating assembly... heads... cam et al. intake, oil pump... everything I could think of I would need to build a healthy motor. I chose the options listed as in stock and available. Made the order on Monday and made plans to pick it up Wednesday.

Midday Wednesday I called Summit, gave them my order number and requested they start pulling the order. I was told they would not pull a part until I showed up in person, with ID and my order particulars. First Strike! I can understand fraud prevention and ultimately I’m glad they err on safety’s side, but I wasn’t asking them to release my order, just to start pulling it.

So I hopped in the girlfriends truck, as my truck is in the shop and it was WAY too much for my car. I get to Summit... jump through their hoops to prove me to be myself... and start what ended up being a 3-hour wait. Twenty people had come and gone by the time my name got called... and the woman rolls out a cart with MAYBE 30% of my order. Strike 2 2/3!!!

Again, I like instant gratification. It’s a hallmark of us millennials. Difference between me and the hipster set is I’m more than willing to put in the work to get that gratification.

I’m not sure the parts counter girl even finished her sentence before I demanded the manager. So I sat down and waited again. Finally a manager, who had been watching me for 2 1/2 of the 3 hours I’d been there comes up to me. Loud enough for the parts counter personnel to hear I started: “I am an EXTREMELY UNHAPPY customer... your people all did their jobs admirably and my quarrel isn’t with any of them, or with you, but your system. The SUMMIT system, is BROKEN!!!”

I explained the reasons I was so unhappy...
I’ve been waiting... for not only an unacceptably incomplete order, but the CORE COMPONENTS aren’t here. What good does a bitchin EFI intake do me when I don’t have a crank or pistons?
Why does your system tell me these items are in stock when they aren’t?

I do my best to be as reasonable as I can and to understand and empathize as the situation warrants. No amount of lambasting the manager would produce my parts, so I compromised again:
“I’m NOT driving back down here! That’s step one... and I’m not paying you to ship items you said I could pick up in person...”

“I understand sir, let me see what I can do...”

So I waited some more. After another half hour he comes back with a new manifest for me, a stack of toilet paper, ie Summit bucks and explains that the rest of my order will be shipped to me... all direct from the manufacturer.

“I see, so not only does Summit not have these parts at this location, they’re not even in Summit’s inventory?!?”

“It appears that way... sir!”

Yeah... every “big ticket” item had to ship direct from the manufacturer. And that’s understandable... I don’t expect Summit to stock EVERYTHING... I do expect them to stock the things they SAY they do.

At this point I’m still waiting on one set of Pro-Comp heads to... I’m not even sure... I don’t want them, and just by looking at them can’t recommend them to anyone else, surely not for the price I have in them. In any case, having them in hand would make me feel a little better than I currently do.

As I said above, I’ll never spend another dollar at Summit Racing... I WILL get my money back and fully expect to use whatever credit I wind up with to get all the small stuff I know I’ve forgotten. And I’ve still got that stack of Summit bucks.

Since I’d budgeted @ $2500 for heads, which will buy two sets of the Pro-Comp GARBAGE, I floated myself until I can make the return to Summit and called AFR up. They haven’t been the BEST, but at least their products reputation stands up. And the machine shop has their deposit and isn’t hounding me to pick the bottom end up, so I won’t direct my ire at AFR IF my heads show up by the end of next week.

They’ve had ample time. They could have smelted the ore AND cast the things themselves in the time since I placed the order. I’m OVER the virus, and I want to DRIVE my truck. Until then I can’t help but second guess the money and time I’ve been spending. Hearing that others are into it surely helps.




Jeremy
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: Shifty on May 07, 2020, 10:23:51 AM
That sucks Jeremy, Summit has always been really solid for me. 
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: jeremy.farlow on May 07, 2020, 11:11:15 AM
I’ve never had trouble before either. But as I told the last Summit customer service rep I spoke to: “I believe there’s a systemic problem here at Summit. You have to understand that the writing on the wall, economically speaking, looks bad for ALL of us. Your company is the literal definition of luxury products. There’s nothing in your catalogue a person can eat. If you plan to weather this storm a good place to start is by NOT pissing off customers.”

I have to reiterate... I’m not upset about a part not being in stock, that’s understandable. I’m upset at what appears to be the conscious, deceitful business practice of telling the customer parts are in stock when they aren’t. THAT indicates either ineptitude, or deceit. And from what I’ve gathered trying to clear this mess up, it seems the Summit system is designed to be intentionally deceitful and then intentionally obtuse... likely with the aim of frustrating a percentage of customers until they just give up.

I’ve got too much money in play to just give up... and too much time on my hands as well.

Lastly: public service announcement.
DO NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY ON PRO-COMP CYLINDER HEADS

They are CHEAP JUNK. I’ve read some people that feel their bare casting are an acceptable starting point. Even that is a big maybe in my mind.

First off... the stud mounts come from the factory with helicoils in them. Hackery at its finest there. I totally understand using a threaded insert for a higher strength thread in aluminum. Keencert, Timecert, anything is better than a helicoil. Pro-Comp doesn’t even recommend stud mounting the rockers and won’t warrant their product unless you use shaft mounted rockers. Guessing they’ve dealt with a few failures...

After that I set the first head on its side and poured acetone down the exhaust port... first valve leaked immediately. Two others showed traces of leaks after minutes. Flipped it and tried the intakes. Two leaky valves there. I didn’t even bother the second head. I bought assembled heads because I don’t have the tools or equipment to cut or even measure valve seats. Maybe I could have lapped the valves to the seats and gotten a better seal?!? But should I have to?

Absolutely no markings whatsoever on valve or retainer. Not a stretch to imagine they’re the absolute cheapest valves, springs, retainers, etc. Likely just waiting to for a valve head to pop off and hole a piston.

Again, that part is my fault. I didn’t do my diligence and I expect to pay a penalty for that. But that penalty will NOT be eating the cost of two sets of crap heads. One set that I don’t even have in hand.


I’ll stay off my soapbox after this.





Jeremy
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: ehjorten on May 08, 2020, 09:19:21 AM
Jeremy;

My 1991 V3500 had the TBI454 and 4L80e.  Truck has 8" of lift, 4.10s, & 35" tall tires.  I got 11 MPG pretty steady out of her.  When I spun a bearing in the engine, I pulled it out and put a 2004 6.0 l LQ4 in it.  I have been dinking around with stuff for far too long, but I am finally getting to the last little bits to get her back on the road.  Anyways...I did get 11 MPG out of my original, low-compression 454 with horrible peanut port heads.
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: jeremy.farlow on May 11, 2020, 12:50:02 PM
Still lacking heads, but I picked up the short block today. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200511/015e834b426dc3f612284e20858b9637.jpg)

I’ve got most of the bits to start assembling the engine and hopefully I’ll see heads this week...
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200511/d4717de74e9c7941793060f5f2710492.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200511/254123b9833cbcc09a35d59304e38c97.jpg)
Obviously still a lot of work left to do, but getting the block in hand feels like an accomplishment, so I’m trying to take some “basking” time...


Everyone stay safe and healthy out there.





Jeremy
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: jeremy.farlow on May 11, 2020, 06:23:01 PM
First pitfall... hopefully of not too many.
This is the timing set I got:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200511/cc848867bfa5f4432fedcaf6f04b1764.jpg)

Clearly labeled Big Chevy.
But!!!...
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200511/2864d291bcde89035f8ad2755872c394.jpg)
No way, no how.
As I’m not nearly as versed as many... what gives. The cam is a Melling GenVI replacement roller... I’m thinking that MAY be the difference. I have noticed that most timing sets are different for factory roller applications. Is that the case here? Mostly hoping to avoid buying four more timing sets to get the right one.



Jeremy
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: bd on May 12, 2020, 10:52:13 AM
Factory roller blocks use a thrust plate to locate the camshaft in the block and prevent it from walking fore and aft.  The configuration of the thrust plate reduces the diameter of the cam gear bolt circle.  Did you retrofit a thrust plate to the block? 
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: jeremy.farlow on May 12, 2020, 11:10:57 AM
Update on above... factory roller cams got a different snout. Got a new timing set on the way.

Summit update. I called them again yesterday. I was informed that the second set of heads was damaged in transit. Okay... why did it take ME calling THEM to get that information??? So I requested a refund again. Sure thing sir... right away. 24 hours later I’m still not refunded.
No idea WHEN the damaged heads actually shipped, or when Summit was alerted to their damage, but it’s been at least a month. Long enough they’re getting interest on the $1362.12 that hasn’t been refunded to me. That money is for parts that Summit acknowledges I never received.
So... I started my day with both a BBB complaint against Summit and escalated my claim for refund through PayPal. Even without the financial insecurities driven by the pandemic, this is REAL MONEY!!! Do they honestly believe I’m just going to forget? That I’ll just go away and leave them $1362.12 richer?!? Actually that number doesn’t include the other stuff I’ll be returning today.
Summit obviously doesn’t realize who they’re dealing with. Tenacity, thy name is Jeremy.
So now I’m loading up my car with the OTHER set of heads, the timing set and whatever else I can return and I’m planning on parking myself in their showroom until the gendarme drag me out or this is resolved.

Summit will never get another cent from me and I’ll recommend all reading use their purchasing power likewise. Support your local economy, not the powerhouse. Try Jegs, try Barnett Performance, start a relationship with your local NAPA. At the very least, do not assume Summit will be anything but duplicitous and intentionally deceitful in any dealings you have with them.

I hope I’ll have a better update later today, wish me luck.




Jeremy
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: JohnnyPopper on May 12, 2020, 12:27:05 PM
I feel the same about RockAuto!

When you're compiling a list of parts, they somehow seem to ship from different sites, though the parts are similar.

Add to that, when you try to get parts from the same site, parts you have already put in your cart magically change to shipping from different sites!!

I have cancelled many orders due to this rigged system of playing with shipping costs.
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: jeremy.farlow on May 12, 2020, 01:07:31 PM
RockAuto doesn’t bother me as much. Despite doing 90% of my ordering from my phone and using RockAutos non-mobile optimized system, they basically let me choose speedy delivery or cheap delivery. And having to choose one of those options was made clear to me since I started using that outlet.
The thing with Summit that really caught in my craw was that I built this order based around what THEY said they had IN STOCK at my retail location. Their system allows the order to be built that way. So the start of this miserable journey was buying parts they claimed were in hand, driving the 35 miles and WAITING... to discover those parts weren’t even in the Summit inventory. I understand they can’t stock EVERYTHING! Cool, don’t even make the attempt. But expect an unhappy customer when the parts you said were on hand and in inventory have to be shipped from the manufacturer.


In any case... after an in person visit I have several pieces of paper that indicate I am being refunded for the items that never arrived. I also walked out with the GenVI style thrust plate and proper timing set. AFR says the heads are at shipping/receiving so hopefully I’ll be able to get this engine together before some piece of grinding grit finds itself inside the engine. My shop is not the best equipped for that sort of work.



Stay safe and healthy out there.



Jeremy
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: jeremy.farlow on May 21, 2020, 10:10:11 PM
FINALLY!!! Heads have arrived!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200521/e39944b496df911ff783a9fd8f3058d5.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200521/c4b07889107cf4e62ab4e571fed4fba0.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200521/3add2acb7b9677e43436c457fa2c7c48.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200521/7bcc452027b3f1e460602d8b5d478f17.jpg)
Things of beauty.

Unfortunately, the GenVI Melling cam is proving too much. It’ll go back in the box and back to Summit. In its place I’ve got a COMP cams EFI friendly cam and lifters coming.
The GenVI replacement cam seemed a good idea at first, but it limited my options in timing set and in addition to needing the later style cam button and thrust plate I also would need to retrofit the GenVI method of aligning the lifters. While my block was machined for the thrust plate, I don’t see any way to mount whatever aligns the lifters:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200521/d8a364fe53d3fe8946ea5146fe2f499a.jpg)
Something grabs those flats on the lifters. I assume it bolts to something else.
Where there’s a will and all... I have a lot of will, but the easiest WAY is to return some stuff and buy other stuff that better suits my needs.

I’ve built a handful of engines in my life. Even a couple of real hot-rods... but the hot rod engines were motorcycle engines and the other stuff was all factory replacement stuff. Nothing with the aftermarket support small and big block Chevy’s have. I appreciate that Chevy’s are EASY as well. One bellhousing pattern and minimal architectural changes beyond. But just enough in this case. The “easy”, factory roller cam swap was proving anything BUT EASY.

I got heads today and decided on another cam.

I hope to get the heads installed in the next couple days. I can loosely install the rocker studs, but I’m dead in the water until I get a cam. Comp says it’s in the mail...

I put the studs in!!!:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200522/d1b68f92005261828c52bf189a25bc2a.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200522/03c69d33dd40cd2d467ec25d54a0bc7f.jpg)
Everyone wants to sell me an application specific “thread sealant” but I have lots of this on hand and it’s never let me down:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200522/d1ad61aa28d1f969db5b263dc226eb86.jpg)
Speak now or forever hold your piece. I don’t see why it won’t work. PTFE thread sealant, 250.C heat rating...

The AFR heads are gorgeous. They weren’t CHEAP, not by any stretch, but at the price point I’m surprised to see fully CNC machined ports AND combustion chambers. That being said, there are a couple spots where there wasn’t enough casting for the tool to hit. Despite being a cynic at heart I’m saying their castings are so tight the tool couldn’t make a cut. In any case these heads are light years better than the Speedmaster parts. There’s no thread inserts. I don’t foresee ever needing to repair the threads in what appears to be a fantastic casting with well-conceived machining. If so, I’LL get to decide what sort of insert to repair them with. So be it if MY repair winds up being a helicoil set that I bought in the lawnmower repair section at Lowe’s.

It’s not a worthwhile expense to spare...

Anyhow... I’ve never had as much on the line as I have now. I made a budget pre-coronavirus and I’m HAPPY I’m still within that. I’ve paid upfront far less than a lot of guys in my position are willing to pay on a note for a driver. I’m gonna have a really nice, $25k, 30-year old truck after this. Everything is bought and paid for.

The engine is gonna be tight. I did build a Yamaha FJ1200 engine that was unbeatable in AHRMA’s “Battle of the Twins” series. As ridiculous as I thought that FJ engine was at the time, I didn’t have 1/3 the options I have on this thing. I had ONE crank option... ultimately based off a re-ground stock crank. Rods sized to fit. No option for throw. Pistons re-worked to fit a reworked factory head. The head was decked for improved squish... but there were no options for combustion chamber volume. No options for different sized pistons to address a different CC volume. There weren’t cam styles to consider... or valve configuration... or springs with deference to either.
DOHC, spring under bucket configuration. No other option. Adjustable cam sprockets, sure... to work with ONE POSSIBLE valve-train.
I missed the two-stroke era... a fact I lament, because I like tinkering... and two-strokes=tinkering. I’m sunk if the virus lockdowns requires more than the suburban out of me, but this will be my next project:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200522/963ad5590bfc4fda4c9f0f6fc54a6dcd.jpg)
For those who don’t, that’s the last street-legal two stoke to American shores. Yamaha RZ 350. Enough displacement to require a tag in all 50 states. The picture above is my bike many moons ago. It’s been in long term storage for a while. As much as I love motorcycles, they’re detrimental to sane life... with children and mortgages, etc. Building a square body GM was supposed to be easy...

It’s not a hot-rod...

Right?!?

Please lord, let me get 40k miles trouble free...


Stay healthy and safe





Jeremy
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: bd on May 21, 2020, 10:34:55 PM
Told ya you'd be pleased!   ;D

Congrats!
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: jeremy.farlow on May 21, 2020, 10:49:26 PM
They’re SO NICE
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: Shifty on May 22, 2020, 11:48:37 AM
I've never been disappointed with AFR's heads!  (especially when Tony Mamo ports 'em)
Title: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: jeremy.farlow on May 26, 2020, 02:19:41 PM
I’m not likely to port these heads any more than AFR sent them to me. They’re beautiful. I’d hazard a guess that the machined finish they ship with is likely an awesome finish for a carbureted application. My guess is that the striations left by the tool will add turbulence and help fuel atomize better. Not so much a concern for my fuel-injected application, but an interesting aside.

Another aside: years back a European fellow published his findings regarding engine break-in and intake port design. His page has since vanished from the internet, but at one point this guy was purportedly the best non-factory, Super Sport motorcycle engine builder in that world.
He subscribed to the “Pops” Yoshimura school that an engine should be broken in as quickly as possible. His theory was to verify the engine was oiling and then to make progressively faster and harder runs up a long hill. Start off in lower gears and lower revs and add RPM and gear with each successive pull. Always full throttle, always working the engine as hard as you can. Start in second gear, keeping RPMs low, 3000-4500 RPM (17000 RPM motorcycle engines, remember.) Kill the bike and coast back down the hill. Third gear, 4500-6000 RPM. Fourth, 6-8500, fifth 8500-12,000 or so and if you still had room for sixth, run it out.
The point was to develop as quickly as possible, as much cylinder pressure as he could to force the rings to really “bite” the freshly honed cylinders.

His other perspective was that modern 600cc motorcycle engines had intake ports FAR larger than what the engine actually needed. This builder had taken to reducing the size of the intakes with something like JBWeld and then reporting those openings. He published head-to-head comparisons of his reworked heads against the factory heads and showed monstrous improvements. He also showed that, according to a flow bench, his heads didn’t perform nearly as well as the factory stuff did. The perspective he arrived at was that outright flow is only one component of intake port design. Equally important, especially in a carbureted application, was a degree of turbulence that allowed the fuel and air to mix better.

As I’m not building a 10/10’s racing engine and expect to “leave a lot on the table” I’m not gonna invest myself too thoroughly in making the AFR ports any better than they came to me. That being said, I am interested if anyone knows of concrete theory to prove or disprove that guys findings. I’d also be interested to know if forced induction applications work differently. It seems to reason with any kind of turbocharging, the flow characteristics would become more important than the turbulence created. I have nothing to substantiate that theory on though.

I’ve swapped waiting on heads for waiting on a cam. I went ahead and installed the “odd” head today. It has to come back off for the cam, so it’s really just an exercise. It went smoothly. Studs torqued in four increments to ARP’s recommended 80 foot-pounds. I used plenty of ARP fastener assembly lubricant.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200526/2e1a5bac759a4a77d9c36c126672eab1.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200526/7aeb4bb3527fb8f53723bbceada50465.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200526/153c93d871a40b8e7bb840e4fd68fd19.jpg)
This was a welcome tip some internet guru suggested... labeling the torque sequence on the head to prevent having to keep looking at the book.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200526/649ab9c658a7f1c7358b96828e24b849.jpg)
Pushrod guide plates and rocker studs are loosely installed, with thread sealant as recommended. AFR uses two-piece guide plates of their own design. Their instructions got me to this stopping point.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200526/4e05161d736e04c51fef33e68e1c72bd.jpg)
Another trick I like is to mark each fastener with a paint pen once it’s fully torqued. I spun the engine over to check the torque on the mains and rods and marked them as well.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200526/1ee15e03a5644d90ff423491d6564e48.jpg)
Things are coming together. Not quite at the rate I really want, but enough so that I can feel it.



Safe and healthy and sane.




Jeremy
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: jeremy.farlow on June 02, 2020, 08:16:27 PM
I got a few minutes at the shop today. I believe I have arrived at the final cam, lifter, thrust bearing and timing set combination. For the cam button... I’m still figuring that out. The Miloden timing cover I plan to use isn’t the roomiest thing ever. There’s definitely not enough room for the Lunati needle roller button I have on hand. But! I also have a lathe... and stock to chuck in it.
I’ve got 4130 pre-hardened, if I want to try and remake the needle bearing button. Or, I’ve got oil-impregnated UHMW. I’m using the UHMW to figure the length, depth(?) of the button.

General consensus here as the rest of the internet that 0.010-0.015 cam end play is correct for a roller cam?

The cam needle thrust bearing pushes the lifters slightly off center, nowhere close to lifter contacting the next lobe. Cam journals are mostly in their bearings. I have the bronze plain bearing that came with the timing set that will correct the offset, but I’d really rather have the needle roller set up

Pictures:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200603/134c5a44ab8faa867a7324444b1686dc.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200603/6bbe1d136319097241b1a7f44fefefdc.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200603/c8c2cd2b833743b83d31a5cf3f4238bc.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200603/116685c1e1a490344ffa7b8bd690b98e.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200603/fdae1c82479f07b7efeb7026556d4ecc.jpg)

Pictures aren’t in order, sorry... I started figuring out cam timing as well...

I want to be VERY SURE of the cam timing, so I’m thinking a day there. Not sure WHEN that day will come.

I also have a pushrod length checking kit on order from Jegs. The AFR heads want a .200-.250 longer pushrod. But the Comp cams roller lifters are SIGNIFICANTLY longer than stock replacement length.

Meaning pushrods are gonna wind up significantly shorter than stock. Likely a good thing overall, but I have some stock length Comp magnum pushrods that are worthless to me. Also have the GenVI Melling stock replacement roller cam with thrust plate and timing set.

Sorry BD.


I went back to work for a couple weeks this week... we’re building some prototypes in hopes that our inventions will allow the motion picture industry to restart.





Jeremy
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: jeremy.farlow on June 30, 2020, 08:20:24 PM
Wow. I’ve neglected this thread.

It’s been a month and a lot has happened:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200630/f8850a1d3fa646482e05e9b317eb1caf.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200630/0878f0372ab0e779528be7900b40d413.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200630/2db599be11002466c2e2bbcec50c9ed5.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200630/7d18a61ab8fba0dcabb528bc7a2bc864.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200701/1dae831b2c62b4a4a7ddf135076f5597.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200701/6bfea2febad94a980f20a2ce46e1895e.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200701/125a8b94149957ff8573ca76509d7eb9.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200630/95855288ca4df82b0c456680c4c7b167.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200701/4b12ff184b6f3ae081d387c63b433426.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200630/de60218abfa30fcc3446bf970eec7a40.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200630/ac93a574353f5343a75e054db5731dbe.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200630/dca116ed7d57bedf0127d108fe2991ad.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200630/679e64c2fc36607a1b71917c0c38da26.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200701/dd4d9dc535023c2ce2456610d93e71f8.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200701/4cd5ca18e2ca54427dc9d4f3dbc7c41d.jpg)

One of the cool things about the Edelbrock EFI is the ability to control two fans. I mean, it’s not that advanced, but I get two outputs programmable according to water temp.

The truck already has an auxiliary fan. I’m gonna ditch the mechanical fan as well and have a decent electrical fan to replace it. I’m thinking of something right now, I’m not sure if or how crazy it is.

I want to do an electric water pump.
(I ordered it today)

I want to ditch the thermostat.
(Maybe unnecessary?)

And use the two Edelbrock fan outputs to control the E-fan and factory auxiliary fan.

With a 160-degree thermo-couple to turn on the electric water pump.

I’m thinking with a mechanical water pump and mechanical thermostat there’s some bypass through the thermostat, but quite frankly the water pump is just hammering against the thermostat until it opens.

I’ll assume bypass of electric pump vanes similar to the T-stat bypass. Added bonus that using a simple thermo-couple and relay to run the electric means the pump will keep running, regardless of ignition position, until the water temp drops below 160.

I’m thinking even without the electric water pump turning, water will still bypass and move around enough to prevent hot or steam pockets. Temp sensors are right by the T-stat housing. Thermo-couple will be right at the top of the radiator fill neck. Obviously fans turning doesn’t matter if the pump isn’t, so I’m thinking set the electric pump to turn on/off at 160 degrees.

Main fan turns on at 180-190-degrees and auxiliary fan turns on at 190-200-degrees.

And then after that, hope that maintaining 180-200 degrees in 90% of conditions is realistic.

Hope the auxiliary fan is enough after that.

What’s the community think?


Be safe, stay healthy.




Jeremy
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: JohnnyPopper on June 30, 2020, 11:03:28 PM
It sounds feasible, but here are some questions:

Not sure of your rev in cooling, but in earlier revs, the bypass went through the heater exchange, allowing those in cold country to get the earliest heat generated by the engine. Might want to check out how yours is set up.

Second, maintaining Operating Temp is important for a lot of reasons. One being fuel efficiency.
Only have a Tstat can guarantee consistent OT.

Having said that, locating the Thermo-Coupler at the radiator may cause you issues- without circulation Parts of your engine may get real hot before the temperature reaches the TC, only to have the pump wildly move disparate temperatures of H2O from cooler parts of the system to them hoTTer ones. Snap Crackle Pop.

I would check the design rev of cooling system to see if there is indeed a suitable bypass in play. If there is, I would use a Tstat.

I would locate the TC at the Tstat housing or nearby.

Other than that, I love the idea of two fans with separate controls!

Looks like that beast will be on the road soon.
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: jeremy.farlow on July 01, 2020, 06:19:50 AM
First off, none of the electric water pumps have provisions for the heater core, so I’d have to “T” off the upper and lower radiator hose... I’m thinking THERES my bypass.

I don’t know why... but I hate the idea of thermostats. They just seem so old school. That said, I totally understand that especially fuel injection WANTS the engine to be HOT!

So it seems the recommendation is to maintain the thermostat? Okay... I’m down with that.

In that case I’m thinking I trigger the water pump off the EFI as well as the main fan... and then trigger the auxiliary fan from... something else, thermocouple, switch and relay... something.

I do like the idea of being able to walk away from a truck still making noises and doing cool down stuff. A) to mess with peoples heads... and B) because the hottest any engine ever gets is right after you shut it off...

I had an R6 race-bike years back. I could run 10-15 laps at Road Atlanta, Jennings, Roebling, any of the southern race tracks, in the summer, with no problems over heating. As soon as I came back into the pits, the thing would puke it’s water all over the place. Every time. No coolant allowed, so no mess, etc... but embarrassing all the same. 

So a truck that keeps a fan running AND water pump circulating without the ignition makes me warm and squishy.



Be safe and stay healthy.



Jeremy
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: ehjorten on July 01, 2020, 09:36:57 AM
I wired my Dual Spal fans for my V3500 like the GM Factory did with 2006 and newer LS engines. They use 3 relays and run the dual fans in series for the low temp setting and then use the 3rd relay as a switching relay to run both fans in parallel for the high temp setting. That way I am always pulling air across the entire radiator. When the fans are running in series the current draw is...from memory now...I did test and measure, but can't remember the numbers exactly...like 6 Amps and they ran at something like half-speed.
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: jeremy.farlow on July 01, 2020, 09:58:01 AM
I’m having a little trouble visualizing the redundancy in what you’re describing... any chance you’ve got a wiring diagram? It won’t bother me to have anything you can post here for reference by myself and the community.


Thanks
Be safe and stay healthy


Jeremy
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: JohnnyPopper on July 01, 2020, 10:14:21 AM
So Erik, GM did that stock? It is a great idea!

Relays are MacGyver's best friend!

I had a '63 Porsche tub that was 6v. Too old to find a 12 generator, long gone. Didn't want to convert to newer alternator and change out 90 lamps, so how can I run my 12v stereo and sub?

Relays!

I put in two deep cycle aircraft 6v batteries, used relays to run them parallel to charge, then in series them to fire the Musica!

After some hours, the Aux battery would fade, and the music wouldn't work. Flipped a switch that would energize a relay, now they're both being charged, and I used a micro LED to remind me they were in parallel.

Jeremy, I'll draw out a line diagram if Erick can't get to it.
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: ehjorten on July 01, 2020, 12:53:20 PM
Jeremy;

Here is a link to a site that I just found that has the diagram: https://www.gmfullsize.com/threads/i-installed-2006-e-fans-on-my-2001.229730/ (https://www.gmfullsize.com/threads/i-installed-2006-e-fans-on-my-2001.229730/)

I tried using the 2006 fan setup, but my power steering box and hoses causes major interference to the Driver's side fan. To my surprise, the top mounts for the 2006 stock fan setup, bolted right up to my 1991 Top Radiator Supports, but the bottom had interference that would have had me trimming the fan, not just the shroud. So I designed up my own fan shroud and mounted a 16" SPAL on the Passener's side and a 12" SPAL on the Driver's side.

Here is a picture of my Fan Setup before I changed the connectors out to Metri-pack 480 sealed connectors.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cZfjfcmJQfRb3Ik-pieCNMqiRWYhKU8soA35QvZvr_DkZxrBJIXtgzzWSvI0XyNweZAWoplGM9-swhKL8sIpBGBQf-jRpm9Q5EFr3MeVCzYSjFk0CYLNe7i8WjM9eohBB5lNBFOkNiVHzN2BCN8W0X=w1306-h979-no?authuser=0)
Title: Re: Multi port EFI 496
Post by: jeremy.farlow on July 01, 2020, 04:04:07 PM
Thanks!!! I’ll definitely have a look... at this point I’m still working out some of those details.

Electric water pump is on the way.

Aeromotive in-tank fuel pump is on the way as well.
340 lph “stealth” unit with 90-ohm level sender. Direct drop in for up to 800 HP.

I’ve got one 2200 CFM fan, 16” diameter. No matter what I’ll have to fab up a shroud. I’d like to add another, smaller fan as well as keeping the auxiliary pusher fan that GM gave me.

I’m thinking I need some thermostat control over the water pump. There’s no sense running it continuously, as there’s too much chance of over-cooling. Same goes for the fans. So the task is gonna be getting a signal to both the pump and fans to keep the engine between 180 and 200 degrees.

My fun today was to drop the fuel tank. Of course it was nearly full...
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200701/309bc92b32a2e9f4c624e7313533a07c.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200701/8a084dd165142ccc171d3cedb17f1cc4.jpg)
This is a thirty gallon tank (I’m pretty certain... RPO sheet indicates as much, and I’ve never put more than 28 gallons in)... but somehow I managed to fill (mostly) those 5-gallon jerry-cans 8 times?!? Sumpin ain’t right here...

Hopefully I can get the last of the wiring done before the fuel pump gets in... then the truck should run?!?



Be safe and stay healthy



Jeremy