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73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Engine/Drivetrain => Topic started by: timl1978 on June 20, 2009, 07:27:28 AM
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I am thinking of going to a 4 or 5 speed in my 85K-10. Has anyone done it? Is it worth all the work to change it over? Can it be changed over? Do I go to a SM465 or NV3500 or NV4500?
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I would rather drive my truck into a brick wall then swap a 700r4 for an SM465 but that's just me. I hate that trans unless it's for dirty work. Some guys love it. Why exactly do you want to make the swap?
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Not sure really...but maybe to make towing easier or because it's more fun.
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Towing what easier? And what's more fun to you? Do you just like to shift? What kind of driving do you do? I prefer automatics myself and you can do a lot with an automatic but if you're gonna do the swap I would at the very least have some good reasons why so you're happy with the outcome.
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Here is my take on it. I prefer stick shifts. I have several reasons, but mostly just preference. 1) my wife can't drive stick and won't even try. 2)better control in bad weather. 3) economy over automatics, at least the way I drive. 4) I understand the inner workings on a manual transmission and the SM465 is bulletproof tried and true. 5) I can fix em if they break. 6) I have had a break line fail and at least you have engine braking to get home safer. I don't run anything hard and the SM465 is not something you can or even want to shift fast. The older I get the more I am leaning toward automatics. Towing is easier with an automatic if the gearing is proper for the load. The SM465 with the granny gets it moving easier with less wear and tear but does take time to shift through the gears. I had the 700R4 in my 95 and didn't like it because of the short first gear and have driven the 5 speeds in the newer trucks. A very few late 1987 trucks were fitted with 5 speeds as experimental units. I have only heard of one but have not seen it first hand. The NV4500 is a nice swap and if I were going to do one that would be my pick, but an easier swap is a 4 speed meant for your truck connected to a parts truck that gave you everything needed for the conversion. Good luck with your decision. My $.06
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Zieg, #1 is probably your best reason! lol
I'd have to disagree with better control in bad weather. You don't have to disconnect the engine from the transmission for abrupt changes with an auto and when you have large gaps in ratio's like some of these manuals do it's not a very smooth transition. You have engine braking with an automatic too, just move the shift lever down. As far as economy the major efficiency loss is in the heat energy in the torque converter. Most people drive their vehicles with a manual trans unlike they should on paper (including me) I always find myself in a lower ratio too long and there goes efficiency. Ever drive a vehicle with a factory shift light? lol Try shifting when you're supposed to and see if you like it. I'm not knocking manuals here just understand there are a lot of reasons to love automatics too.
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Really I don't like how the 700 shifts. Since i've installed the new motor it just shifts way too quick and won't downshift, ever. I've adjusted the TV cable per the spec but no luck. I also have the correct brackets for the holley carb. If I get the 700 shifting correct i'll be happy.
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I think a trans guy with the proper know how can get it right. I have read on the 700R4 and there seems to be some other internal adjustments that are required to get it right. Vile is an expert on these trucks. I wish I could help you on this one.
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Have you done any modifications to the 700R4 or is it stock? There are many simple upgrades you can do to get nice shifts. In the meantime, tighten the tv cable up one more click at a time and see what it does.
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It's completely stock with about 90K miles on it. I will messy around with the TV cable. It shifts good with easy normal throttle but when you floor it it won't downshift. Also when you floor it from a stop it will shift through the gears very quickly and never allow the engine to rev out. Do you know what may be causing that?
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First, at the time of my 350 install, I tried Bowtie Overdrive's TV Made EZ kit and hated it. I could never get it to shift smoothly at low throttle AND firmly at high throttle. So I removed it and reinstalled my stock set up.
After this, my trans was upshifting WAY too early under light or heavy throttle, and 3-4 shift was way too soft and slow (slippage). I replaced the TV plunger spring with a Sonnax replacement spring (slightly longer, slightly more pressure than the stocker). After readjusting my TV cable, the result was a night and day difference. Shifts much better now.
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Have you done any modifications to the 700R4 or is it stock? There are many simple upgrades you can do to get nice shifts. In the meantime, tighten the tv cable up one more click at a time and see what it does.
I tightened it (move back towards firewall) and the shifting get worse, the more I move it back the quicker and softer it shifts.
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Is there tension on the cable?
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Is there tension on the cable?
There is always some slack, no matter what position the adjuster is at. At WOT I can pull the cable by hand about a 1/4" further than the carb WOT.
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Is it hooked up to the tv valve correctly in the valve body? You might want to check and if ok install the correct tv cable.
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Tim, Can you post a pic or two?
When you are at full throttle, you should have no slack at all & not be able to pull the cable anymore. If this isn't happening...something is wrong & needs to be corrected for the transmission to work properly. I have mentioned before that I have fought the Holley rear bracket (the stupid little one with the ONE bolt & the tab bent down), it would move, bow, flex, bend. I have also noticed flex in the upper portion of some gas pedal assemblies when using a Holley carb (double pumper) & that effected the TV adjustment when done from inside the vehicle. The Holley's seem to take conciderable more "effort" to open them than the Q-jets & Edelbrock/Carters do. Have you tried adjusting the TV cable by hand at the carb? This may eliminate your 1/4" gap. Hope this helps! Lorne
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Is it hooked up to the tv valve correctly in the valve body? You might want to check and if ok install the correct tv cable.
How would I check that?
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Tim, Can you post a pic or two?
When you are at full throttle, you should have no slack at all & not be able to pull the cable anymore. If this isn't happening...something is wrong & needs to be corrected for the transmission to work properly. I have mentioned before that I have fought the Holley rear bracket (the stupid little one with the ONE bolt & the tab bent down), it would move, bow, flex, bend. I have also noticed flex in the upper portion of some gas pedal assemblies when using a Holley carb (double pumper) & that effected the TV adjustment when done from inside the vehicle. The Holley's seem to take conciderable more "effort" to open them than the Q-jets & Edelbrock/Carters do. Have you tried adjusting the TV cable by hand at the carb? This may eliminate your 1/4" gap. Hope this helps! Lorne
I can take some pics this evening. The gas pedal does get the carb to WOT so I don't believe it's the pedal. Adjust it by hand do you mean shorten the cable where the teardrop connector at carb is?
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Tim, Ok...Good, you checked that the pedal opens the carb fully. What I have found is that in some cases the pedal & cable bracket doesn't have enough stability to "adjust" the TV cable to the correct spot. Try this, Push the button & slide the cable back toward the firewall to remove all of the slack, let go of the button, then turn the throttle fully by hand (the cable will adjust). To test, you can unhook the "teardrop end" with the throttle closed...pull out the cable until it's tight, now open the throttle & see that the pin where the cable end goes on is exactly where your holding the cable to, Understand? From inside the pedal will typically work fine, it's just the jolt trying to get the cable adjustment to jump seems to be the problem. Try this & report, Lorne
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Tim, Ok...Good, you checked that the pedal opens the carb fully. What I have found is that in some cases the pedal & cable bracket doesn't have enough stability to "adjust" the TV cable to the correct spot. Try this, Push the button & slide the cable back toward the firewall to remove all of the slack, let go of the button, then turn the throttle fully by hand (the cable will adjust). To test, you can unhook the "teardrop end" with the throttle closed...pull out the cable until it's tight, now open the throttle & see that the pin where the cable end goes on is exactly where your holding the cable to, Understand? From inside the pedal will typically work fine, it's just the jolt trying to get the cable adjustment to jump seems to be the problem. Try this & report, Lorne
I've done all that. When I compare me pulling the cable by hand to the WOT pin on carb I get the 1/4" difference. The cable pulls a full quarter inch past the pin on carb linkage. Thanks for the help!
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Here the photo at no throttle and at full throttle. When at WOT you can see how much further I can pull it by hand.
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Measure the total travel from idle to WOT and compare it to the factory quadrajet. I went out to look on either of mine but they are stick carbs with no provision for the trans cable.
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There are a few different length TV cables. You must have too long a cable. Have you pulled your pan to observe the TV plunger travel, as Vile suggested? This is what it should look like at WOT: (http://image.classictrucks.com/f/8371020+w750+st0/0307CL_TVCABLE16_z.jpg)
Source: http://www.classictrucks.com/tech/0307cl_best_cable_tv_signal/index.html
I am also wary of that bracket. Does it flex at all as you pull the throttle open? I would reinforce it with a gusset, if not replace it altogether.
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Well I think I need to get a new TV cable system and throttle valve assembly. Does anyone have recommendations on a specific vendor to get these from? I already know of Bowtie Overdrives, are there any other reputable companies and what have your experiences been with them?
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Tim before you do that I still have a problem with what I see...Looking at your top picture there is a good 3/4" the cable could go back to take out the slack. When the throttle is closed, do you have slack in the cable then? You should be able to tell "by feel" when pulling on the cable if your moving the plunger or just slack. One thing I've seen in the Sonnex catalog is a clip that goes on to remove that slack...I've not used one, however there parts usually are thought out & work well. That would be my last resort though only after you verify that everything else is correct. What I'm having trouble with is that if you have no slack with the throttle closed...How's come the self-adjuster wouldn't make the cable stop adjusting before you get to where you at (How can the self-adjuster, adjust it too long) even if that meant holding the throttle closed a little? Lorne
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Yep, in your pics the cable adjuster is not pushed back in.
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can you include a photo of the setup at the carb? There should not be any slack in the cable at the carb so that the pressure rises as soon as you touch the throttle. If it is not shifting right I would not drive is more than you absolutely must. This setup can be a pain until you get use to it.
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Yep, in your pics the cable adjuster is not pushed back in.
I know it's not in, that where it ends up when I push the accelerator. I've go through all the correct steps (i think) to adjust the adjuster. The shifting isn't good no matter what I do.
The slack will come out when the adjuster is all the way to the firewall, but the shifting is even worse. Immediate soft shifts with no downshift when the throttle is pushed hard. I did leave the adjuster as its shown in the photo and take the slack out with a fishing sinker. This took the slack out and got the cable to tight at WOT. The shifting doesn't happen as quick, better but not good, and no downshifting under throttle, only downshifts when off the throttle coming to a stop.
I bought this truck and didn't drive it much prior to installing the new motor. So I don't know if it was right to begin with.
I understand what everyone is telling me and have tested the adjuster location every which way to sunday. I don't know if it's with the brackets, the TV cable, adjustment, throttle valve, etc.
If I have to pull the pan I probably should replace the throttle valve and spring right? It's frustrating. Brand new perfect motor but can't use it to it's potential.
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I would start with a shorter TV cable. But I would check the TV plunger with the pan off during the change. After you remove the cable, check the condition of the TV link (the small rod that connects the TV cable to the plunger lever mechanism), and make sure that you can push the plunger in all the way with your finger (it should be smooth but with good resistance from the spring). If you try a shorter cable and you have the same problem, Sonnax makes a shortened TV link (#77872-01) that may fix your problem. Also while the pan is off it might a good idea to remove the TV plunger/sleeve and check the spring. My current Sonnax spring #77968-01K has an at rest length of 2.190" (nice firm shifts - TV cable adjusted to max TV). My stock spring is 2.062" (weak soft slipping shifts - TV cable adjusted to max TV). The spring provided with the BTO TV Made EZ kit is 2.246" (overly harsh light throttle shifts - TV cable adjusted to max TV). Also the stock spring is the softest of these springs; the Sonnax is slightly firmer and the BTO springs is much firmer.
It may be a good idea to replace the TV assembly and spring, but I would address the TV cable issue first and avoid stacking problems until this one is resolved.
BTW: to remove the TV plunger/sleeve, you simply pull the roll pin (shown in the pic below), and use the TV plunger as a slide hammer to slowly work the sleeve out.
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Where would I get a shorter cable? Do I get a universal one or OEM?
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Any auto parts store. I would get an OEM replacement cable. You'll have to measure yours first, then you might do a little online research to find a shorter replacement. For example, when I do a search on rockauto.com, I get a different length TV cable for the 305 (47.5") and 350 (44"), and I can't imagine why they would be different. The one I'm using, a Pioneer CA-1970, is 43.75". I got it at AutoZone for $18. Be sure to get new seal too.
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Even, The total length maybe different, but the amount from where the jacket clips the the back bracket to where the carb end would be if both were pulled tight should be the same (amount of travel/bare cable). I have questioned this before...a carb equipped small block engine (all were Q-jet's) to the trans. hole (all in the same place) should really be the same no matter what vehicle it's in, but I have also seen different part numbers. Go Figure, Lorne
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what looks to me to be good info can be found here:
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/techinfo/700R4p1.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/techinfo/700R4p1.html)
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what looks to me to be good info can be found here:
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/techinfo/700R4p1.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/techinfo/700R4p1.html)
Thanks I found that today too. At least I'm not the only one who can't seem to solve the puzzle.
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Any auto parts store. I would get an OEM replacement cable. You'll have to measure yours first, then you might do a little online research to find a shorter replacement. For example, when I do a search on rockauto.com, I get a different length TV cable for the 305 (47.5") and 350 (44"), and I can't imagine why they would be different. The one I'm using, a Pioneer CA-1970, is 43.75". I got it at AutoZone for $18. Be sure to get new seal too.
I'm going to try the CA-1970. It's worth a shot for the money...stay tuned. Thanks.
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So I got the new cable and it was better but not great. I gave in and took it down to the local tranny shop and boy am I happy with the results! It shifts great and they also changed the speedo gear to reflect my gear change. $100 bucks well worth spent! Sometimes you have to swallow the pride...and save the tranny at the same time.
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great to hear, money well spent
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So I got the new cable and it was better but not great. I gave in and took it down to the local tranny shop and boy am I happy with the results! It shifts great and they also changed the speedo gear to reflect my gear change. $100 bucks well worth spent! Sometimes you have to swallow the pride...and save the tranny at the same time.
Do you happen to know what exactly they did for $100?
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So I got the new cable and it was better but not great. I gave in and took it down to the local tranny shop and boy am I happy with the results! It shifts great and they also changed the speedo gear to reflect my gear change. $100 bucks well worth spent! Sometimes you have to swallow the pride...and save the tranny at the same time.
Do you happen to know what exactly they did for $100?
Changed the speedo gear and adjusted TV cable, probably and half hours worth of work. Not much. But worth it.