Fuel Pump? Truck died... Can't diagnose.

[Spool]

Double checked the spark plug connections and the order is correct.
I took the same opportunity to separate any parallel running plug cables and separated 5 from 7 on the loom.

When I went to advance the timing, I found I was choking the engine and anything further than 12degrees ATDC would have the engine stall.

So I began to retard the timing and found that it ran smoother.
It's beyond the timing tab as of now, about 1'oclock on the flywheel, which I would estimate to be about 24degrees BTDC.

I would have kept retarding the timing, but my vacuum is now pushing up against a metal pipe coming from the manifold. (1st photo)

The second photo shows how advanced the timing is in regards to where I found TDC on Cylinder 1 using the terminal of the distributor cap.
The whiteout on the engine being the original spot before removing the old distributor, and the sharpie mark on the distributor itself showing the difference of where it is now.

It's smoother, but it's not smooth.
When I shift to drive, the truck shakes even more.

I'm confused though, because when I did the repair I set the timing for 8degrees BTDC and the idle was super smooth; almost hybrid quiet in comparison to what I had before the job.
Did the helical gear shift inside?

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[VileZambonie]

double check your firing order. Did you reverse #5 and #7?

[Spool]

Nope, the firing order is correct.
I'll triple check it, but it's correct.

It was based on this diagram attached.
Earlier in the thread you'll see the conversation, but it was determined that the current firing order to the right opposed to the left was correct.
I wired the spark plug cables using the diagram to the right.

[Spool]

What I'm gathering from our conversation is that perhaps I didn't set TDCC correctly.

Should I remove the distributor, turn the flywheel to 0degrees, replace the distributor and time the engine?
If so, where should my rotor be pointing when at TDCC in this approach? 1st cylinder?

[bd]

Thomas, Vile is telling you that in order for you to be able to rely on the timing marks, you first need to verify that the timing marks are accurate.  To do so, you need to find TDC of cylinder #1 and then observe whether the timing marks actually align to zero.  This will ensure that the outer ring of the harmonic balancer hasn't slipped (a common problem with bonded elastomer balancers) and that the timing tag on the engine matches the painted groove on the balancer (there was more than one configuration of timing marks in production over the years and they are not compatible).  I will add that if you are going to verify the timing marks, you may as well check timing chain wear at the same time since it adds only one extra step to the process and provides a more complete picture.




^^^^ Incidentally, the "flywheel" is located between the engine and transmission.  You painted the timing mark in white on the "harmonic balancer."

...I began to retard the timing and found that it ran smoother.
It's beyond the timing tab as of now, about 1'oclock on the flywheel, which I would estimate to be about 24degrees BTDC.

I would have kept retarding the timing, but my vacuum is now pushing up against a metal pipe coming from the manifold. (1st photo)



...It's smoother, but it's not smooth.

^^^^ Your description along with the photo imply that you have "retarding" the timing confused with "advancing" the timing.  If you rotated the distributor vacuum advance forward (toward you) until it hit the copper line, you have the timing over advanced, not retarded.  Rotating the vacuum advance back toward the firewall (away from you) will retard the timing and should bring the timing mark back toward zero.  If I misunderstood what you meant, feel free to correct me.

[Irish_Alley]

...I began to retard the timing and found that it ran smoother.
It's beyond the timing tab as of now, about 1'oclock on the flywheel, which I would estimate to be about 24degrees BTDC.

I would have kept retarding the timing, but my vacuum is now pushing up against a metal pipe coming from the manifold. (1st photo)



...It's smoother, but it's not smooth.

^^^^ Your description along with the photo imply that you have "retarding" the timing confused with "advancing" the timing.  If you rotated the distributor vacuum advance forward (toward you) until it hit the copper line, you have the timing over advanced, not retarded.  Rotating the vacuum advance back toward the firewall (away from you) will retard the timing and should bring the timing mark back toward zero.  If I misunderstood what you meant, feel free to correct me.

i was about to respond the same thing cause thats how i understood him. the rotor turns clock wise so if you turn the distributor counter clock wise it will be now giving the cylinder fire before it normally would receive it. but it could just been a typing confusion

[Irish_Alley]

ill add this also the harmonic balancer and timing tab cant really be trusted all the time unless youve verified theyre accurate by finding TDC with a piston stop or something . read that article i posted from rich back on

a reply or two down on that theres some links on how to find TDC and timing

[Henry]

Hi Spool:
Just to make sure you understand which way things go:

-The distributor rotor turns clockwise. So if you rotate the body of the distributor clockwise you are retarding timing...if you rotate the body of the distributor counter-clockwise you are advancing timing.

-The crankshaft and damper(where you have the groove painted white) rotate clockwise. So when you are looking at it with the timing light from the drivers side of the engine and see it pass the tag on the block, the numbers on the tag above the "0" mark (towards the pass side of engine) are advanced (before top dead center) timing degrees and the numbers below the mark (closer to drivers side of engine) are retarded (after top dead center).

So understanding the above, if you set your engine timing to 8-10 degrees before top dead center (BTDC), where is the port of the vac adv can pointing? If it is rotated close to straight ahead and hitting the carb OR pointing straight left to the passenger side of the engine, then your helical gear at the bottom of the distributor is off by one tooth. Please advise if you can and have not gone beyond this as far as your troubleshooting.
Regards,
Henry

[Spool]

Okay... First, my own personal corrections of terminology and understanding.

1. I marked the Harmonic Balancer, not the fly wheel. The flywheel is between my engine and transmission. I understand this now.

2. I confused retarding and advancing, but now I understand:
-Rotating the Distributor clockwise is retarding the timing.
-Rotating the Distributor counter-clockwise is advancing the timing.

3. When I originally made the repair of dropping the new distributor in, based on the fact that I believed to have found TDCC by pointing the rotor at the Cylinder 1 terminal in my distributor cap, I in fact was at about 14*ATDC (based on the timing tab) before timing. (First photo attached)

However, after I wired everything up and started the engine to begin timing, I had found that the engine (based on the timing tab) was at 8*BTDC.
I had then went ahead and advanced the timing so that I was at 8*ATDC as I reversed the reading of the timing tabs due to my inexperience and went the wrong way. (I should have left it at 8*BTDC)





Henry, after reversing my understanding of the timing tab and rotations, I went ahead just now and set it to 8*BTDC. (Where it was when I started the truck after replacing the distributor...)
When I did the job, I had the concept inverted and proceeded to time the engine to 8*ATDC.
The truck runs smoother after doing so.
(I've attached a photo of the vac adv can... It's pointing in the same direction when I replaced the distributor.)

Irish, as a newbie, I was able to take away a few solid pieces of information from Rich's page, but much of the information was a little above my hands-on experience and general understanding.
Finding TDC with the hacked spark plug/bolt trick was excellent. Thank you.
After setting my timing back to 8*BTDC and opening the throttle from the carb, I was getting a reading of 8*ATDC with the throttle open.
Would this be about correct?
I don't know how many RPM's I had it though, as I do not have a RPM gauge in the truck.

BD, I've learned my terminology was incorrect and/or backwards.
However, my Harmonic Balancer feels like a solid alloy of some kind. It has rust as well, which leads me to believe it's the original or at least not a Bonded Elastomer.

Overall, and this may be in my head, but the truck sounds "slow" as it idles in comparison to how it was for 3 years of me owning it.
After setting it back to 8*BTDC(based on the timing tab) this evening it certainly doesn't shake like it was at 8*ATDC in idle and performs better in drive as well(with my foot on the brake)
If the truck runs smooth at 8*TDCC(based on the timing tab) and the mistake was due to my own learning curve, do we think it's safe to take for a test drive in the morning?
Here is a link of what the truck sounds like now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmYpMHpKh5U&feature=youtu.be

Or should more steps be taken to ensure success of actually finding TDC.
If so, what would those steps be?

[Henry]

Hi Spool:
OK, if you have your engine at 8 degrees BTDC now, and it idles and accelerates smoothly I believe all is well. Go ahead and plug in the vac adv hose from the carb. If you can put it in drive gear and hold the brake and it still idles and is smooth, I believe all is well. Your distributor vac adv port appears to be pointing across the engine at a 45 degree angle towards the pass side headlight which is correct and indicates you have the helical gear meshed properly with the camshaft gear and your plug wires are probably going to the correct terminals...5-7 straddle the B+ terminal under the distributor shroud? I think you are ready to take it for a test drive...the normal idle speed for your engine is 600 rpm for auto and 900 rpm for manual trans. This may seem like a low speed to you because your engine may have been idling too high to begin with. The idle speed for my 76 is 600 rpm and with a quiet muffler sometimes it is hard to tell if the engine is running when you are at a stop sign in traffic...you can just look at the oil pressure gauge and tell if it has stalled or not.

Take it for a drive and advise how it performs.

Regards,
Henry

[Spool]

Hey Henry,

5-7 do not straddle the B+ terminal of my distributor, but rather are above the B+ terminal.
I've reattached the reference picture that we and BD had last week. (The image on the right being my current wiring)

So I took it for a test drive and was able to tell something was incorrect just by pulling out of my driveway.
I took it back in and ran the following timings to show their results.

8*BTDC with the vac adv plugged using a golf tee.
Park>Shaky
Gas in Park>Smooth
Idle in Drive w/ foot on brake>Shakes

Keeping the 8*BTDC time, but now connecting my vac line to the distributor the timing now reads 12*ATDC
Park>Shaky
Gas in Park>Smooth
Idle in Drive w/ foot on brake>Shakes

Based off of the last result of having 8*BTDC become 12*ATDC with the vac line connected, I began to advance the timing to set it at 8*BTDC while the vac line was still connected.
It's very shaky and giving it any gas causes the engine to nearly die.

I'm stumped.
Little confused as to why the original repair was smooth for 3 days.
Do I need to remove the distributor and find true TDC?

[Spool]

Also, Sound wise...

This is what my truck used to sound like before the ignition died on January 19th:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiEHjU8TDxg&feature=youtu.be
(This is at 16*ADTC w/ the vac adv connected)

This is what my truck sounds like when setting the timing to 8*BTDC with the vac adv connected:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1QfFVjVY5Q&feature=youtu.be

[Irish_Alley]

ok i think i might have figured it out. your setting timing "thinking" BTDC but in reality your ATDC


not unless that video you posted of your timing is old. but you shouldnt be able to tell 12° ATDC because the timing tabs dont go up that high. and that would also indicate you have something like a 20°  vacuum advance

[Spool]

Thank you, Irish. That is exactly what I needed.


I think this is what happened:
I realized I understood the direction of the timing tab (Before/Left-After/Right), but then confused myself when corrected
of turning the distributor incorrectly to be (Counter/Advance-Clock/Retard)

After all of that, I've come to this.
When I originally did the repair, I did in fact set the timing to 8*BTDC.
It ran smoothly for 3-4 days and then became rough.
When it became rough, I took another timing, and saw it sitting at about DUE NORTH, as I reported a few days ago. (Roughly an estimate of 32*BTDC)
I thought this was incorrect, but now I'm realizing that that was only because the vacuum line to the vac adv was now connected.

I went out and did the following:

I set the truck to 8*BTDC on the timing tab with the vac plugged.
-Park>Smooth
-Park w/ gas>Smooth
-Drive>Smooth

Then I tightened the distributor bolt very hard.
Took a timing and found I moved it to 9*-10*BTDC (Which I accepted and proceeded)

I reconnected the vac adv and took a timing of DUE NORTH again, which I'll estimate to be 32*BTDC, the same place it was when it started to run rough...
However,
-Park>Smooth
-Park w/ gas>Smooth
-Drive>Smooth

Conclusion:
The truck is running smooth when set at *8BTDC and moves to DUE NORTH/roughly 32*BTDC when I reconnect the vac adv.
However, this is what I did the first time, minus taking a reading after reconnecting the hose.

So when the truck began running rough and I took it home to discover the WHITE GROOVE at DUE NORTH, I thought the distributor slipped, when really, it was most likely the advance of the vac adv.

Which leaves me questioning, perhaps it was correct originally, I confused myself twice-over when timing the second time after I corrected the orientation of the distributor clamp.

I'll go for a test drive.

[Irish_Alley]

The reason I stated your advance is around 20 because think of it a math problem
-12, -11, -10, -9, -8, -7, -6, -5, -4, -3, -2, -1,BTDC 0 ATDC 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8,

You said you set the initial timing to 8°ATDC. Once you connected the vacuum advance it would go to °8 BTDC that's a total of 20° difference. If you then set the initial timing at 8° BTDC the advance should bump it up to 28° BTDC.

But anyway we all make mistakes, how did it test drive?