WD hitch VS just moving the load back

[MuddiGGEr25]

Ok Im going to start this off with a few of my definitions of terms I use just to avoid any miscommunication:

WD hitch: a weight distributing hitch of any design, with or without sway control.

Tongue weight: The weight that "would" be measured as a downward force via gravity onto any surface, eg. ball, scale, jack stand, or earth, directly inside the 2 5/16 coupler that my trailer has.

WC capacity: the stated weight carrying capacity of a hitch from any manufacturer.

WD capacity: the states weight distributed capacity of a hitch from any manufacturer.

The reason i am asking is because i am gutting the rear 18ft of a 34ft camper to haul our 5,000lb mudding toy, and while the tw vehicle "CAN" pull and stop the weight on its own accord, im wanting to understand more of the weight ratings.

I literally just spent the last 5 hours after work reading all the generic and dozens of forums where people debate about what a WD hitch does or does not do, i graduated HS 4 years early and started attending college at the age of 15, so I am by no means unitelligent, i just seem to not be understanding the difference in what i am asking about.

I have towed many things that were far far too heavy for the vehicle i was using and i have driven semis hauling 99K of product during harvets with trucks rated for 80K, and i have towed loads with vehicles ridiculously overrated for the load.
EG 1ton pickup hauling 1500lbs of garbage

Just for arguments and examples sake, i want to say the trailer will weigh when loaded in the 7,000-8,000lb range ideally around 7,500

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ok now that is out of the way, I want to know what the difference is if i bought a WD hitch, and hooked it up to the camper, and adjusted it according to the directions which would ideally give a distribution of the original tongue weight= 30% to the front tow vehicle axle, 40% to the rear tow vehicle axle, and 30% back to the rear travel trailer axle. VS: just moving the mudding toy back enough on the axle to decrease the original tongue weight and at the same time by moving the load back i am increasing the load onto the rear trailer axle just as a WD hitch would. 


If i am understanding the mathematics correctly, if i had 10% of my ideal load resting in the 2 5/16 opening in the coupler (750lbs) and hooked a WD hitch to it  (keep in mind there is no tow vehicle attached or anywhere near this test) and then adjusted the bars and chains as they should be, the tongue weight of 750 lbs should still be the same.. give or take a tiny mount for the additional weight of the WD hitch on the scale also..... HOWEVER if i move the scale while the WD system is still hooked up and place the scale directly under the location where the newly distributed weight at the point where it would engage the vehicle hitch, the scale would now read 40%-60% lighter at this location, due to approximately 40-60% of the 900lbs being distributed back to the rear trailer axle and front axle (this is assuming the weight is actually transferred to the vehicle hitch at the opening of the receiver tubing using a standard receiver and ball or the WD hitch)

The problem i have with my above example is that since there is no vehicle used and instead a scale, i believe that the weight is actually not distributed 3 ways but actually only 2, to the rear trailer axle, and the rear tow axle.  the weight of the travel trailer or tongue itself is actually not "redistributed" to the front, but in fact by lessening the load on the rear tow axle the weight of the vehicle actually is coming back down onto the front axle, hence why some manuals say you should be within 1/2"-1" of original ride height.


Now unless im misunderstanding how the WD hitch mechanically works, all it does by creating slightly more upward force than downward force on the 3 angles, and giving a new load pivot point, the "original" tongue weight remains the same, however in my mind, and calculations, the "new" tongue weight at the pivot point of the WD hitch would be lowered in order to be under the safe towing capacity of the vehicles receiver.  The only thing that doesnt seem to make sense to me is that with the WD hitch, the trailer load stays distributed on the axles as before except the torsion bars create upward force to push some of that weight back to the rear axle, thereby reducing the actual weight being put onto the vehicle, but if i move the load back for example 1 foot, then i have already moved the load more to the rear axle and reduced the effective tongue weight placed on the reciever, i may still need a sway bar, but as far i can figure out, both methods do the exact same thing, but WD hitches are for trailers that have loads that cannot be adjusted.

I say all this because on all the semis i have ever driven we didnt have a WD hitch, we just either moved the load in the trailer or slid the 5th wheel plate to get the weight back where its supposed to be and then all the axles were back at legal weights.


For reference here are the capacities of both the tow rig and mudding tow, because if i break something important on the tow rig, i will just pull it out and hitch up and continue the trip.

Blue 1988 V20 suburban 400lbs dead weight, 4,000lbs WC trailer capacity, 1,000Lbs tongue weight before engaging WD hitch, 9,500Lbs total trailer using the WD hitch

Red 1988 V20 Suburban 500lbs weight carrying tongue weight, 5,000lbs WC trailer weight, 750 lbs tongue weight before engaging WD hitch, and 7,500lbs trailer weight using WD hitch.


Another question i have is this: I have seen boat manuals, and other utility trailer manuals (mostly enclosed) that said when towing the boat or the enclosed trailer is empty (depending on the placement of the axles) that the tongue weight can be expected at 7%-10% but always advised to never go below 7% for safety and liability reasons, and most manuals also stated that "ideal" tongue weight would be 10-15% but not always possible.


I say this: if a WD hitch redistributed 30% of that 750lbs (225lbs) back to the rear axle of the trailer, then only  525lbs of gravitational force would be exerted at the new pivot point that is now attached to the reciever of the truck.

Something that is interesting is that 7% of 7,500lbs is 525lbs

I can do the same math with a 10,000lb trailer, still assuming a 10% initial tongue weight: 1,000lbs -30% distributed to the rear axle of the trailer using the WD hitch correctly: (300lbs distributed to the rear axle) and only 700lbs of force left pushing downwards at the new pivot point provided by the WD hitch. (but still 1,000lbs at the original factory trailer coupler) and 7% of 10,000lbs is...... wait for it.... 700lbs. i can do this all day using any trailer weight with an ideal tongue weight of 10%.

If i use my trailer at 7,500lbs but a 15% original tongue weight: 1125: now if the WD hitch is all setup correctly and properly rated, i would redistribute 30% of that back to the rear trailer axle (337lbs) which leaves only 787.5 lbs of force to be applied at the new pivot point, which is 10 1/2% of the trailer weight which puts it back in that ideal range, but i cant go that high anyway as my hitch only says 750lbs and 1000lbs with the WD hitch.


My whole point in all of this is that it seems i can achieve the exact same thing as a WD hitch just by moving my load back and bring my tongue weight back within the "WC ratings" but have a total trailer weight that the hitch could otherwise handle if the weight is not pushing down on the platform.

 I could get a different hitch for the tow rig that has a higher dead weight for WC, as i think 400lbs tongue weight is a bit skimpy. and even if i used a WD hitch after redistributing the 30% to the trailer axle i would still have 525lbs sitting on it anyway.


I dont have a WD hitch to try my calculations, but if i can borrow one i will.

I know that increased tongue weight up to a certain point can help prevent sway and too much can lead to difficult steering and braking, as well as too little tongue weight can cause the trailer to overpower your rear axle and push you sideways, and also make braking difficult.


i have attached a picture for reference of me (unwisely) towing our 9,000lb RV home on a 3,000lb trailer, and the only reason the back is sagging so badly is that the rear springs were very weak that i installed in the back, but i had already done the front with fresher ones, it took a 4" lift block just to level it out, and 5.5" block to get a slight "rake" the squat is only partially because of the tongue weight which i figure to be about 800-1000lbs since the springs were almost hitting the bumpstops.

I know the hitches can handle what i am asking, i know that i was able to tow this combination home 260 miles and 100 of that in 4x4 HI due to white out/blizzard conditions, and i drove it for 6 months daily afterwards with no major issues, and it became our mudding toy 2 months ago when i bought the blue 3/4 ton.

Oh and it stopped all 18,000lbs GCW using the truck brakes because there was a small tree down on the highway and i ran it over and ripped out the trailer cord, and didnt know it. the connector was toast so i finished the rest of the drive home without trailer brakes either. (red burb no longer has a controller, but the blue one does)  I will also add that i had no sway at all with this load, even when passing or being passed by an 18 wheeler.

[Stewart G Griffin]

1) You could move the mudder back to redistribute the weight vs. a weight distributing hitch, but to me the purpose of the WD hitch is not just to redistribute the weight----it does do that, but also to keep everything more stable which simply moving the load in the trailer rearward will not do.

Even though the tongue weight may be the same in the above examples, the handling of the trailer with the weight further back is still going to be different than if you kept the weight closer to the front, and keeping the weight closer to the front is probably better.

What state you in?   You may be required to use a weight distributing hitch anyways depending on how heavy the total trailer weight is.

[Irish_Alley]

well i can tell you theres a difference in book smart and common sense. that being said when i tow heavy stuff my brakes have to work no matter what or im not going anywheres. i like for my rear to squat just a little but not so much that it take weight off the front as that will effect your steering. dont over due the gross weight and have your load properly located and make sure your brakes work. i personally never have used a WD hitch and ive only seen the people with the extra money have them

[zieg85]

A WD hitch is essential in the overall stability of towing IMO.  I used it on my 14 foot open car trailer.  I think if the truck is rated (frame wise) and brake wise for the load it shouldn't be an issue.  I would really study on what you are doing with your toy hauler.  It obviously wasn't meant to haul 5K on the tail.  Is the trailer frame up to the task?  Is the trailer axles far enough back to make the trailer stable (not sway)?  Nothing is worth white knuckle driving with a trailer swaying at the least bit of wind or bad road.  My $.02

[MuddiGGEr25]

well i can tell you theres a difference in book smart and common sense. that being said when i tow heavy stuff my brakes have to work no matter what or im not going anywheres. i like for my rear to squat just a little but not so much that it take weight off the front as that will effect your steering. dont over due the gross weight and have your load properly located and make sure your brakes work. i personally never have used a WD hitch and ive only seen the people with the extra money have them

I have not as of yet used a WD hitch even at loads of 10K+ as long as it was balanced and brakes were working, BUT i did run over a branch in a blizzard towing our RV home, and did notice a huge difference without trailer brakes... my truck "could" stop it and it did but i will not tow anything over 5K without making 100% that harness is secure. it was asking everything of those 30yr old brakes, 1-ton was regardless, it was still asking alot of them.

1) You could move the mudder back to redistribute the weight vs. a weight distributing hitch, but to me the purpose of the WD hitch is not just to redistribute the weight----it does do that, but also to keep everything more stable which simply moving the load in the trailer rearward will not do.

Even though the tongue weight may be the same in the above examples, the handling of the trailer with the weight further back is still going to be different than if you kept the weight closer to the front, and keeping the weight closer to the front is probably better.

What state you in?   You may be required to use a weight distributing hitch anyways depending on how heavy the total trailer weight is.


I intend to pickup a uses reese model on CL ( i have found 3 of them up this was for $150, or HF has a new one rated for 1,000TW and 10,000 total trailer for only $200. so thats another option.. I just wanted to know the difference, and i also posted on the IRV2 forums and got some insight there too, with some pictures to help explain it. I am in MN, right on the ND border, but we will be going through ND, MN, SD, NE, KS, OK, LA, IL, IA, and possibly MO too on our honeymoon and depending if we pull off our second trip this fall then add FL, GA, and TN to that list too. I dont have time to look up all the laws and try to avoid them so $150-$200 is worth the peace of mind and handling/stability for a 2600-3000 mile trip

A WD hitch is essential in the overall stability of towing IMO.  I used it on my 14 foot open car trailer.  I think if the truck is rated (frame wise) and brake wise for the load it shouldn't be an issue.  I would really study on what you are doing with your toy hauler.  It obviously wasn't meant to haul 5K on the tail.  Is the trailer frame up to the task?  Is the trailer axles far enough back to make the trailer stable (not sway)?  Nothing is worth white knuckle driving with a trailer swaying at the least bit of wind or bad road.  My $.02



Like i said above ill be buying one anyway, just was wondering what the hitch actually did, and i mostly got that answered on the other forum, you have to remember that im not asking the frame to haul an "additional" 5K, im removing atleast 1-2K for sure worth of cabinets, and the tipout.

I have already been looking into a 3rd 3500lb axle to install, in case the ones on it are only 3500lb dexter axles, and not 5000lb.

The seller measured 16ft from the front axle to the rear bumper, and its a 34ft overall length and im sure probably 3' between axle center to center, so the rear axle would be about 13ft from the back, so that indicates the axles are placed just a little past the centerline by about 2-3ft, and my burb is 18.5ft long, so id be clearing out about 20ft of the interior, and if the trailer axles are at 16ft and 13ft respectively, my engine/trans and Tcase (which make up the bulk of my wieght) will be directly over both axles and the first 5ft or so of my burb will be over the axles, so only my rear axle weight will be applied to the frame of the trailer, which may or may not need a slight improvement, i know when i roll across the old scale at the scrapyard my rear axle would register between 2800-3200 depending on fuel, tools etc. which it will be gutted for the mudpark so it might even be lighter.


I know i will probably be pushing the frame capacity of 7,500lbs (thats what he said is etched into the hitch)  I am ok with removing the front slideout for this trip if needed to reduce the gross trailer weight, and just leave it behind until trailer improvements can be made.  Somehow they got it registered with a MN permanent trailer license and they only give those out for trailers under 3,000lbs GVW so im not sure how they pulled that off, bc im sure its over 3,000lbs the way it sits right now. factory dry weight with all cabinets, tanks, furniture etc was either 5,500 or 8,400 depending on which model this actually is

[MuddiGGEr25]

heres some pics of the trailer for reference, their not the best but its 100 miles north of me, and its been blizzarding off and on around here, but you get the jist of it.


Oh and did i mention im getting it for like $150 after i help him remove the Ac from the roof ( i dont need it as my solar cant run a large roof unit anyway, and since im gutting the back 1/2 i wont need to heat or cool it unless im using it as a shop in the winter)

[MuddiGGEr25]

more pcis

[big_al273]

an RV trailer is NOT designed for 5000lbs of truck to be loaded into it, this sounds like a sketchy idea at best and downright dangerous should it go wrong. Car trailers have the axles under the car for stability, placing a SUV with an already high center of gravity on the rear overhang of the trailer (even with the motor on top of the axles) will reduce the tongue weight or even place a negative tongue weight  on the hitch to the point of UNSAFE weight distribution while going down the road. If I was a highway patrol officer, Commercial vehicle enforcement or Ministry of Transport officer and saw your proposed toy hauler on the road i would pull you over and try my damndest to find a reason to pull your plates, with that said i'm not here to be rude to you or call you names or anything like that, I want you to either do this safely and properly or not at all because if you lose it on the highway or in town you could KILL PEOPLE yourself included.

Here are some resources you should look at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDsfhYzUKDI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbWH2-bJoVE
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/towing/towing-capacity/information/tongue-weight.htm
http://www.gmc.com/gmc-life/trucks/why-tongue-weight-is-important-for-safe-towing.html

[MuddiGGEr25]

an RV trailer is NOT designed for 5000lbs of truck to be loaded into it, this sounds like a sketchy idea at best and downright dangerous should it go wrong. Car trailers have the axles under the car for stability, placing a SUV with an already high center of gravity on the rear overhang of the trailer (even with the motor on top of the axles) will reduce the tongue weight or even place a negative tongue weight  on the hitch to the point of UNSAFE weight distribution while going down the road. If I was a highway patrol officer, Commercial vehicle enforcement or Ministry of Transport officer and saw your proposed toy hauler on the road i would pull you over and try my damndest to find a reason to pull your plates, with that said i'm not here to be rude to you or call you names or anything like that, I want you to either do this safely and properly or not at all because if you lose it on the highway or in town you could KILL PEOPLE yourself included.

Here are some resources you should look at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDsfhYzUKDI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbWH2-bJoVE
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/towing/towing-capacity/information/tongue-weight.htm
http://www.gmc.com/gmc-life/trucks/why-tongue-weight-is-important-for-safe-towing.html

I dont know how you think its going come even close to negative tongue weight, the suburban front tires will be IN FRONT of the trailer axles... i clearly explained this above, my engine/trans/tcase will be directly above the axles which means my front tires will be just in front of the trailer axles distributing the weight on BOTH sides of the axles.. your also forgetting that i am REMOVING 1-3K of weight as the inside will be completely gutted down to the walls, and ceilings, only leaving the power outlets and light outlets, so im NOT asking it to haul 5K of truck on an already leaded frame, im asking it haul 3K of truck on the frame.


I also already stated if the frame and 2 trailer house axles aren't rated enough for the 8K total weight loaded i can re-inforce the trailer frame easily we have a yard here that sells just about any metal in any configuration cut to length. and i can put on a 3rd axle rated at 3500lbs and then weight carrying would be no issue whatsoever..


"If" you were a highway patrol, you would have ZERO reason to pull be over because the SUV is INSIDE and completely out of view so therefore all YOU could see is an older park model going down the highway,

As for the high center of gravity, i dont think your realizing that this trailer has 7t ceilins inside, and is almost 3ft off the ground so the trailer itself was designed with a high center of gravity in that its about 10ft tall and alot of the upper cabinets would be filled adding to the issue, but i am removing those.


Your alos forgetting that front tip out probably weighs around 1000lbs of itself due to being 6'8" tall, 14' long, and about 4-5ft deep.

The entire trailer is mounted ABOVE the axles, just like a trailer house and NOT like a modern camper where the axles are up inside the fenders.

Let me show the math this way:  the trailer weighs about 5,500lbs right there in the picture. I remove all of the cabinets, and any tanks or appliances in that rear 20ft. the tip/slide out most likely weighs around 500-700lbs. so im expecting to remove 2,000lbs. now i drive the suburban up into the back and chain it down to points i have welded to the frame. the whole trailer now weighs 8,500. Now the hitch is only rated for 7,500, so i would need to go buy a class 4 coupler rated at 10K for the trailer and weld it on, the next point of interest is the axles. i would need to find out if they are 3500lb axles or the beefier 5,000lb axles. if they are the 5K ones then im good there, if not, then i purchase an additional 3500lb axle and now i have 3x3500lbs=10,500 of axle capacity. next would be the frame. back the  early 70's (judging by the windows being square and not rounded like my 77) my experience has been that the frames were extremely sturdy and could handle alot more than they were rated for. for example this same frame may have been the one used for the normandy 3000 series AND the 1000 series, it would make sense to save production costs to just use the same frame for both. which would mean the frame is rated for over 8K from the factory.  ... however if i notice flex or any sign of weakness i can just weld in an additional C channel or angle iron the entire length of the trailer to add rigidity.



But i will also throw this out there: my friend gutted 2 tandem axle trailers, one was a 16ft and the other was 28ft. both in the mid 70's, he stripped them all the way down to just the floor, and used them to haul scrap iron, and scrap cars, i have even used the 16ft one for hauling a couple of my cars around. the travel trailers were rated factory 5,000lbs and 7,500lbs respectively. i know i had a 5,000lb car on the little one, plus its own weight and it handled just fine for a 180 mile drive, and that was 4 years ago and he is still using it to this day.  the longer one he has loaded over 10K of scrap metal or several crushed vehicles loaded on top of each other, and the only issue he ever had in 10 years of scrapping with that trailer was tire blow outs. mainly because he was using car rated tires and not the stiffer trailer ones, because he had dozens of P rated tires that would fit his trailers so he used them all up.  the one he loaded over 10K on had the same trailer house style axles on it that this one does, and same deal with the axles below the deck, I will be inspecting it all, but i see people just chop the back end of campers off all the time and throw a big mud truck or 4 ATV's on the back and just haul  for thousands of miles with never an issue, and no tickets either. and since they never had an accident due to the trailer i would say it was quite safe as that trailer was used for 10ish years of scrapping before it was stolen while they were out of town last year. and he has been scrapping since before i was born (im 26).

Safety is my priority, just have to get the trailer here and figure out how i have to do that.  It also depends on what the factory ratings are and which model this one is. if it is the normandy 3000 its already rated for about 8,800 according to online guides, if the hitch says 7,500 then that means someone replaced it in the last 40 years

[big_al273]

as i explained the way you describe planning to load this trailer is DANGEROUS, the majority of the weight on the trailer is supposed to be ON TOP or AHEAD of the axles, with the heaviest point directly above the axles (the engine) you still have the entire weight of the suburbans rear end on the REAR OVERHANG. Please look at the resources about weight distribution and tongue weight they explain how to SAFELY distribute trailer weight and what happens with improper weight distribution. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDsfhYzUKDI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbWH2-bJoVE
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/towing/towing-capacity/information/tongue-weight.htm
http://www.gmc.com/gmc-life/trucks/why-tongue-weight-is-important-for-safe-towing.html

[MuddiGGEr25]

as i explained the way you describe planning to load this trailer is DANGEROUS, the majority of the weight on the trailer is supposed to be ON TOP or AHEAD of the axles, with the heaviest point directly above the axles (the engine) you still have the entire weight of the suburbans rear end on the REAR OVERHANG. Please look at the resources about weight distribution and tongue weight they explain how to SAFELY distribute trailer weight and what happens with improper weight distribution. 



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDsfhYzUKDI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbWH2-bJoVE
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/towing/towing-capacity/information/tongue-weight.htm
http://www.gmc.com/gmc-life/trucks/why-tongue-weight-is-important-for-safe-towing.html

I dont think your figuring in that the axles are not centered, they are 18ft from the front of the trailer, and only 13ft of overhang after the second axle. that 5ft more to the front of the axles makes a HUGE difference on how much weight is being put down on the tongue, also the front tipout weight will also be on the tongue, and any water or holding tanks will have to be relocated to the front of the trailer also because the shower/sinks will only be in the front.  maybe you misunderstood, i am not gutting the enitre trailer, only the back 18-20ft. so all the factory weight will still be over the front and any additional weight of gear or supplies. I could be wrong, and if i am then i will have to compensate by moving the truck forward even more, or relocating the front axle back behind the the second one so that there is 21ft in front of the axles and only 11 behind them, and that would also put the truck almost directly center of the axles., of course thats dependent on the rating of the axles. or i could just buy 2 5,000lbs axles with disc brakes ($$$$$) and mount them where the load would be most balanced with 10% tongue weight when the truck is loaded, but then i would have the issue of when im not hauling the truck around the trailer will now be extremely front heavy. im trying to find a balance between the two. my other option would be a system similar to the rails on a Tractor Trailer combination, where i can disengage the lock and slide the axle or axles back and forth depending on whether or not i have the truck loaded.   I understand balancing, and i could be very wrong, but i wont know for sure until i get the trailer in a few weeks and stop by the scale and landfill and start getting my numbers. my last resort option would be to completely remove the camper shell directly after the front slideout, re-inforce the rear wall or maybe add a door for access, then beef up the rear 20ft of the frame and install any reinforcements needed and weld on some tie downs. im sure i can remove 3-4K of weight if i removed 20ft of camper. 


The whole point is to atleast have the front enclosed for camping, being able to drive the truck in would be ideal if everything lines up.


FWIW i have had the misfortune to tow many many unstable loads, including work loads, and a 15K trailer behind me driving a 1ton dodge that decided to get a death wobble uphill at 70mph i have not been injured or been in any accidents because i always pull over at the first sign, and try to reposition the load and if thats not possible then i will call for another trailer or remove a piece of equipment from the tail of the trailer and leave someone with it until i can unload and come back.  I know very well what happens when you have a badly balanced trailer + under rated truck + short wheelbase. its horrifying and very dangerous, thankfully the burbs have a pretty decent WB, and neither are underpowered for engine or braking, my only remaining concern is the balance of the trailer once its loaded, and if i can get the tongue weight close to 900lbs and use a WD hitch i most definitely will

[Irish_Alley]

https://youtu.be/HOPfwB_WAMM

[MuddiGGEr25]

https://youtu.be/HOPfwB_WAMM

lol, i have seen that on facebook numerous times, like stated above i already know what happens if its not balanced decently, i have experienced it first hand in anything from a S10 blazer all the way up to a 3500HD 24ft dump truck. even with a HUGE wheelbase and lots of weight a improperly loaded trailer will cause issues..


I already got my answer to how a  WD hitch works, and i have stated several times i will be getting one instead of moving the truck back, my goal is a trailer weight of 7500lbs maybe 8,000lbs with a TW of 750-900lbs, then the WD hitch will do the rest, and possibly a sway kit for the WD hitch.

[zieg85]

Sway control is the cats meow.

[Stewart G Griffin]

i like this idea:
http://www.tufftow.com/