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73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Electrical => Topic started by: 85Stroker on September 05, 2023, 12:44:48 PM
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Hello everyone,
I have an electrical problem that's driving me totally NUTS! I just installed a gear reduction starter on my 85 K1500 with a 383 stroker motor, the problem I'm having is that when I go to start it it acts like the battery is about dead, and will hardly turn it over even one time. Here's the dilemma part, I have tested the NEW battery (just installed) just prior to attempting to start it and it is showing a FULL charge, now if I jump it with another vehicle it fires right up! As mentioned, I just installed a new battery and a new alternator as well, I also installed 2 gauge battery cables (both positive and negative cables) to flow more juice to the starter. I have tested every single electrical circuit and none show any draws what so ever, I tested my new alternator and it passed with flying colors, I cant find any bad grounds, all fuses are good I can't find any shorts, breaks in wires, etc. I am at a complete loss as to why it won't start, can anyone point me in a direction I may have missed or overlooked??? ANY help would be greatly appreciated, I am severely color blind so doing wiring is hard enough, due to the fact I can't tell the colors of the wires, but I have trouble shooted everything they listed in my original GM mechanics service manual, and checked every circuit according to the wiring schematics in the manual and, hard as it is to admit, I am completely stumped! Thank you in advance for any input or help!
Best wishes to all!
85Stroker in Missouri ( or in this case MISERY!)
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Symptoms could be caused by an incorrect battery ground cable attachment location. Where is the battery ground cable physically attached to the engine? Are the new battery cables all copper, copper-clad aluminum, or all aluminum? Did you fabricate the battery cables or purchase prefab cables?
To reveal any prior assumptions, take some voltage drop measurements. Connect your voltmeter across the battery terminals. Record the voltmeter reading. With the voltmeter still connected to the battery, attempt to crank the engine and record that voltmeter reading. Connect your voltmeter's negative probe to the battery's negative terminal pad and the positive probe to the starter case. Attempt to crank the engine and record the voltmeter reading. Now, connect the voltmeter's positive probe to the battery's positive terminal pad and the negative probe to the starter B+ post. Attempt to crank the engine and record the voltmeter reading. Connect your voltmeter's positive probe to the starter B+ post of the starter solenoid and the voltmeter's negative probe to the starter's case. Attempt to crank the engine and record the voltmeter reading. Post all of your voltage measurements with clear descriptions of where they were taken.
Gear reduction starters generally draw less current than the more common direct drive starters. How did you "test" the battery? Where did you physically connect the jumper cables to your truck from the other vehicle battery?
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bd is ON the case!
Will be curious to see how this works out... 8)
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Hi bd, thanks for the reply, I have the battery ground cable connected to the lower bolt of the alternator, the long bolt that goes into the block, I had Napa build the 2 gauge cables and they are copper, I watched the guy making them and he did a very good job.I also have a ground cable going from the block to the frame. I was concerned that it was a grounding issue but I have checked and made sure the grounds were clean and against bare metal so I can't figure out where, IF it is a grounding issue, it would be, that's part of what is frustrating the heck out of me!
Tomorrow I'm going to take your advice and do the tests you mentioned, looking for any voltage drops, and will report my findings here.
Thanks again, I'm hoping with yours, and anyone else's, assistance I can find what is going on before I loose my marbles completely!!!
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Hey bd, I forgot to answer your other questions,a friend of mine has a load tester and he tested my battery, also when jumping it we just went battery to battery, all 4 ends were on the 4 respective battery terminals, positive to positive, negative to negative, it fired right up. Hopefully the tests tomorrow will result in some useful information. Thanks again.
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Hi bd, thanks for the reply, I have the battery ground cable connected to the lower bolt of the alternator, the long bolt that goes into the block
Top post or side terminal battery? Without tightening or changing a/g, add to your list of voltage drop tests: battery posts to cable ends for both battery terminal connections while attempting to crank. Be sure to wear full eye protection while performing electrical tests on, at, or around the battery.
After performing all of your voltage drop tests relocate the ground cable to attach directly and securely to the block. Make sure all paint has been removed to shiny bare metal and chase the bolt hole threads. Install a split lock washer and a clean flat washer between the bolt head and cable. DO NOT anchor the ground cable to a manifold bolt.
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Hi bd,
I have a side post battery, I'm trying to do the draw tests but I have mo help today so that's not helping, as I am partially disabled and it's very hard for me to get under my truck, but I'm working at it. I have found that I have good voltage from the positive terminal down to the starter connection, within .4 of what my battery is reading. Another problem is the draw is so severe that it barely will crank over even 1 time, so trying to turn it over for around 5 seconds to get a good reading is out of the question. I have redone my grounds to make sure they are on bare metal, I know I have something creating a heck of a draw but I just can't find where it is and I'm not able to follow the wiring diagrams I have very much due to my severe colorblindness. One question I have is regarding the "blue and green" wires going to my 4 speed for the back up lights, someone cut them so they aren't connected, do I need to jumper them???? If I'm reading the diagram correctly they don't go to the clutch start interlock so I wouldn't think they would need to be, but I could use verification on that.
My saga continues but I'm determined to get to the bottom of this problem period! I am really grateful for your assistance and I'm going to keep working at trying to get some actual numbers on the draw tests, its just taking me longer since I'm not 100%.
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Have patience with my questions. Since I'm not there with you to observe, I find it necessary to ask for clarification prompted by your commentary.
Do you understand that a voltage drop measurement is the actual voltage consumed and ultimately wasted as heat by a wire or connection? It is not the voltage measured at a particular location in the circuit in relation to ground. It is the voltage loss across the length of a wire measured end-to-end or across a less-than-perfect connection measured side-to-side. Inasmuch as the voltmeter probes are positioned at opposite ends of the wire or on opposite sides of the connection that is being diagnosed, voltage drop IS NOT measured with respect to ground. In other words, voltage drop is not the voltage measured at various spots in the circuit with the negative voltmeter probe always connected to ground, rather, it is the voltage measured across discrete sections of the circuit representing energy actually wasted by the individual circuit components. Therefore, when you say, "I have found that I have good voltage from the positive terminal down to the starter connection, within .4 of what my battery is reading," I must ask exactly where you had the voltmeter's two probes connected to arrive at 0.4 volt?
In addition, you don't need to crank for ~5 seconds for a valid reading. All that's required is that you attempt to crank the engine in order to load the circuit. We are interested in where voltage is being lost or wasted, nothing more at this point in your diagnosis.
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In some instances, can you set up your phone to video the meter while you turn the key?
You may have to adapt some alligator clips to your meter leads to test other points per bd.
Or tie a 10' temporary lead wire to your solenoid terminal, and apply 12+ at the battery when you have your leads in place.
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Hey bd, I'm currently at work but ask as many questions as you want, I'm grateful for the help and asome knowlessistance! I will never claim to be all that well versed on electrical matters as I have kind of shied away from it due to being so colorblind, I have some knowledge about "voltage draws" although I could not explain as well as you have. I'm off this weekend so I'm going to be trying to get more testing done and hopefully get some information that will help you help me in figuring out this problem. Thanks again and keep on asking, I will keep replying my friend!
Johnnypopper, thank you for your input as well, I will see if I can try your suggestions, unless I get lucky and get some helping hands.
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I can see that we must remain very attentive and alert to our use of nomenclature (e.g., voltage doesn't "draw," because it doesn't move through a circuit. Rather, it is used up or consumed in the process of forcing an organized movement, or flow, of current. Voltage is force. Current is the directed flow of charged particles. Hence, current 'draws' from higher voltage to lower voltage, while voltage differences enforce that 'draw'). Voltage is cause. Current is effect. Therefore, "voltage draw" is meaningless, whereas, "voltage drop (aka, voltage loss)" has a very exact and precise definition. For efficiency's sake, it's important that we are on the same page in our use of terminology. I'll help as I can.
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Nikola to Tesla referred to voltage as tension or pressure.
Makes sense but I admit to being a babe when it comes to electrical theory.
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Truthfully, JP, voltage and current are different manifestations of the same thing. Voltage is the quantification of accumulated charge. Current is the quantification of charge migration.
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I've been baling hay all weekend so I haven't had any time to work on my truck, I'm hoping we can finish baling tomorrow so I can work on it Tues. Will definitely post when I have the tests completed. Thanks in advance for your patience!
85Stroker
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Truthfully, JP, voltage and current are different manifestations of the same thing. Voltage is the quantification of accumulated charge. Current is the quantification of charge migration.
My goal is to be a mathematician, by then it will make more sense. It may take 2-300 years but I'm sure I'll get there.
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Hello bd and everyone,
Due to the weather I finally got some time to work on my truck, and I actually got someone to at least help me do a little testing, so here is what we did, and the results.
Test #1) Starter Ground Circuit test-we took my voltmeter and set it to the lowest DC setting, connected the black lead to the negative battery terminal and red lead to the starter case, tried turning engine over, meter reading was .02., which I believe is correct.
Test #2) Starter Power Circuit test- connected red lead of meter to positive battery terminal and black lead to battery cable post on Starter solenoid, tried cranking engine,, meter reading was .05. Which I believe is also acceptable.
Test #3) Starter Control Circuit test, connected red lead of meter to positive battery terminal and black lead to "S" post on Starter solenoid, tried cranking engine over, the guy assisting me said the meter read between .10 and .14, so am I correct to believe this is the "problem" circuit???
I hope this is useful information and can help with where I go from here!? If you have any questions just ask. I'm hoping I explained things correctly and in sufficient detail.
Thanks again for all the help and giidance!!
85Stroker
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Did the starter crank or attempt to crank during the tests? Was cranking labored (i.e., sluggish and slow)?
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I charged the battery just prior to doing these tests, and yet when I went to crank it over, during the first test, it barely spun at all then each time I tried after that it mainly just clicked.
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The battery was showing good voltage before the first test, and attempt to crank it over, I didn't check the battery voltage after each test but I have checked the battery before and it always showed it had good voltage, it seems that enough voltage is just not getting to the starter to be able to spin the gear reduction starter.
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I don't know if this will help but here are a couple pics of my starter and wiring.
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You say the battery is fully charged by taking a voltage reading only. You need to do a load test. I have seen many bad batteries that had good voltage but very low cold cranking amps. Remember new doesn’t mean good. Take the battery to an auto parts store and have them do a load test. Don’t have them run bolts into the side post for the load test. Make sure they use the proper side post lead adapter.
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Thanks for the input Mike, a friend of mine has the equipment to do a load test, and he tested my battery and it passed but I know what you mean about " new batteries" that's why I had him load test it.
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You also said that when you jumped it it started right up. So when you hook up the jumpers, are you attaching to the side posts or does this battery have top and side posts.
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The battery was showing good voltage before the first test, and attempt to crank it over, I didn't check the battery voltage after each test but I have checked the battery before and it always showed it had good voltage, it seems that enough voltage is just not getting to the starter to be able to spin the gear reduction starter.
So, connect your voltmeter across the battery and measure the voltage for a static baseline reading. Leave the voltmeter connected to the battery and attempt to crank the engine again. What does the battery voltage measure while cranking? Post both measurements.
What type of load tester does your friend have? Is it a handheld capacitive load tester or does it have an adjustable carbon pile with separate ammeter and voltmeter?
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My friend is also a farmer and he has a lot of equipment so he has a shop that's fitted with all the best equipment, it is not a hand held, it's actually pretty sufisticated. @ Mike, My battery has only side posts, I connected the jumper cables directly from battery post to battery post on both vehicles and it fires right up.
@ bd, I will try that the first chance I get and post the results.Thanks again, I really appreciate it !!!!!!
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If you connect battery to battery with jumpers and it cranks normally and you are 100% sure your battery is good then I would say that you have a problem with not getting a good connection from your battery terminals to your cable. Make sure your side post bolts are not too long and bottoming out. Pull off the cables from the battery and inspect that nothing is interfering with contact. Like the insulation cover on the terminal if not centered could be keeping the terminal from making good contact. If in doubt pull of the insulated ends and reconnect and try.
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This ^^^^^. But don't neglect the battery voltage tests I mentioned if the foregoing doesn't correct the issue.
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Ok, so if the bolts bottom out it can actually cause a problem??? I was not aware of that and that could be the issue because they are kinda long. I will check it for sure, and follow your other advise as well, thanks so much!!!
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Actually, bolts that are too long can cause several problems. They can punch out the back of the lead plug leading to acid leaks, they can reduce clamping force that results in inadequate contact between the cable and terminal pad, they can open the battery connections to fluid penetration that results in corrosion. In addition, the bolts should be designed specifically for side terminal batteries (image).
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Well holy crap, that may be my problem, I put a longer bolt with a nut into my side posts because the regular "correct" bolts were only grabbing a couple threads and were stripping them out. When I get out of the field tonight I will check that and see if I'm bottoming out, dang I wish I would have known that but live and learn!
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I meant to say they were pulling the threads out not stripping them but it was causing me to not be able to snug the bolts up so I put the longer bolts in with nuts so I could use the nut to snug it down, but my bolts may be too long.
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Post pics of the cable attachments to the battery.
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I'm on the edge of my seat!!! ;)
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Sorry I didn't get done in the field as early as I'd hoped to, I will post the pics tomorrow morning.
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Well things are not exactly going as I hoped, we were due to get some rain, which we got today, so we started combining corn and i haven't had much time at all to work on my truck.
I did find some better "correct" side post bolts to replace the improvised bolts I was using, unfortunately it made no difference, I still have my original problem.
I thought I would give some background of how this all started in hopes it might help in some way. Someone had stolen my battery, alternator, plug wires, distributor cap, and some other parts, while my truck was at a body shop getting a little body work done. Whom ever did this also messed up some of the engine wiring in the process of stealing my parts. I replaced all the stolen items and tried to repair the wiring the best I could, being severally color blind, one of the wires I had to repair was the fuseable link going to the firewall junction block. I purchased some new fuseable link wires (14 and 16 gauge) to replace the damaged ones. Once I got the truck running and driving I was having a problem of having to jump start it, I did some testing and found my alternator was not charging the battery, when I put the meter on the battery and stepped on the throttle the reading would not change at all, so I began to try and find out why. What I found was the single post wire from the alternator, which according to the schematics in my service manual should go one of the fuseable links connected on the driver's side post of the firewall junction block was not connected. I put a fuseable link wire on it and connected it and it appeared to fix the problem. I drove my truck a couple times after that and this is when my present problem began to rear it's ugly head! After driving it the last time, the following day it would not start, the starter solenoid would just click. I had been wanting to replace the old starter anyway so I got my gear reduction starter from Summit Racing and installed it with the 2 gauge battery cables, and it still would not start without a jump, and this is my ongoing problem.
Bd, I haven't been able to do the test yet, that you mentioned, testing the battery static baseline then testing while cranking, as it appears someone borrowed my remote starter and didn't put it back so I have to go buy another one. That test will be my next step, but with the previous information I just posted of the "background history" is there anything else that maybe comes to mind? This is driving me NUTS but I'm determined to do whatever it takes to fix this, so as long as anyone is willing to give advice and procedures, I'm going to keep listening and doing whatever is suggested, no matter what it entails! Thanks again to bd, Mike S. , and everyone, for the help and input!
Best wishes to all,
85Stroker
P.S. one additional note, I have started going back over tests I have previously done, in hopes of maybe finding something I might have missed. I rechecked all my fuses and tested for voltage drops at the fuses, and found nothing, however, when I retested the voltage going from the alternator to the battery, (after jump starting the truck) under acceleration the reading was a steady 14.7 volts, it didn't drop or rise as it should, when accelerating or decelerating, so I'm wondering why!??! In addition it is not running right, it's running a little rough, and won't idle correctly, it acts like it wants to stall out, and when accelerating it almost seems to act as if the plugs were not getting a hot enough spark. I'm going to pull the plugs and check them, just to see if they show anything. I'm trying to give as much information, whether it's useful or not, to try and get to the bottom of this. It's bad enough that this all started because some thief couldn't go out and earn the money to buy their own parts, like the rest of us, and instead just stole mine and messed up my wiring in the process, it's really maddening!
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The alternator generating constant 14.7 volts regardless of engine RPM means the regulator and alternator are doing their job; anywhere within the range of 14.2v - 14.7v is ideal. The voltage tests are a necessary evil unless you discover the cause of your woes in the meantime. Any connection or component that significantly drops voltage, other than the starter itself, has the potential to hinder engine cranking. Correctly performed voltage drop tests should help identify the source, but you must be methodical and systematic and make no assumptions.
I didn't review this thread from the beginning to see if we already covered this ground, but you can check for parasitic draws using a simple incandescent test light. Make sure e/g is shut OFF and the cab doors are closed. Disconnect the underhood light if one exists. Insert the test light inline between the battery B+ post and the positive battery cable. If the test light illuminates normally bright, there is sufficient current draw to pursue a diagnosis. Otherwise, any parasitic draw is negligible and can be ignored.
You stated that someone pilfered parts and "messed" with the wiring. Is there any chance that they also rotated the distributor or that the distributor is slightly loose? Over-advanced ignition timing can cause severe labored cranking issues. Use a jumper battery if necessary to start the engine and verify the timing with a proper timing light.
It sounds like you have the alternator properly connected. Don't dive down the rabbit hole prompted by second guesses.
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Hi bd, I just have a couple minutes while I empty the combine hopper, we have a chance for rain possibly in just a couple days so we are combining from very early to very late thus I'm not going to be able to work on my truck until we either get done or the rain hits. I plan on following thru with all of your suggestions and advice, and posting the results, please be patient with me, I really want to get my truck running but the farm has to take priority. Thanks again for all the help and information, hope everything is good with you.
85Stroker
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Thanks for keeping the wheels turning, gotta 'make hay while the sun shines'.
A fellow (what would we call ourselves? Capn Chaos Kids?) came upon the same year La Mons, clean as a whistle.