Author Topic: ~Engine troubles :(  (Read 10516 times)

Offline ItsOniiyx

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~Engine troubles :(
« on: October 13, 2013, 08:05:18 PM »
So! Let me start from the beginning. The season's changing rapidly; (I live in the Northwest) and I got my c10 at the beginning of Summer and have only driven it during that season so far. Then it started getting much colder in a very quick manner. You can imagine my thoughts when the truck wouldn't start. "Okay, it's just cold outside, no biggie. I'll borrow my parents Aerostar for now." ... Later that day noon-1:30ish, it was warmer, so I tried it again. Engine turns over, turns over, turns over. No spark. Hook up the battery charger... Turns over and Spark! Starts running for about 2 minutes and 13 seconds when it dies. Can't start it again after that so me and dad here pulled apart a few electronic components and he figured out it was the ignition module. Replaced that.
Now beforehand, I had also changed the oil. The stuff that was in it was very fluid. Almost as thin as water. ----CURRENT STATE: It starts, and runs at 1200rpm. Which is 500 higher than usual. I can't put it in gear or it stalls from the lack of rotations. My question is, does anybody know my problem and can give me a diagnosis? I can try to give as much detail as possible but there's only so much I know about the truck since I got it the way it is. Any help is much appreciated.  :)

PS: Sorry for the long story  ;D
'80 Long-bed c10 350: "Arianne"

Offline ItsOniiyx

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Re: ~Engine troubles :(
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2013, 08:21:34 PM »
Mistake in the wording. CORRECTION: The throttle isn't stuck open or anything. We HAD to change the idle to that high in order for it to stay running on it's own. OTHERWISE it would stall.
'80 Long-bed c10 350: "Arianne"

Offline rich weyand

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Re: ~Engine troubles :(
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2013, 09:12:27 PM »
1980 -- is that TBI or carb?

OK, I poked around a bit, and I think that's still a Qjet carb setup in 1980.

Does it have the electric choke on the side?  Are the choke wires hooked up?  They should have 12 volts on them whenever the ignition is on.  Check them with a voltmeter.  Is the choke getting power?  The choke coil should read 8.5 ohms resistance when disconnected if it is still intact inside.  What's the resistance reading?

Does it have the stock air cleaner with the heat-riser pipe and vacuum-operated door in the snorkel, or is it one of those open-element, two-chrome-pie-plates setups?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 09:38:45 PM by rich weyand »
Rich

"Working Girl": 1978 K-10 RCSB 350/TH350/NP203 +2/+3 Tuff Country lift

Offline ItsOniiyx

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Re: ~Engine troubles :(
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2013, 11:28:56 PM »
It's got a newer Edlebrock performer carb, and it reads 13.5 everywhere with the voltmeter. It's got a Hyfire IV Mallory ignition setup so that's normal. I guess I should've mentioned that  ;D
The coil is in fact getting power. This is all aspirated with dryer vent by the way.. Lol. (SOMEBODY, really just threw this truck together. I'm disappointed in how cheaply it was done.), but the problem isn't in the carb setup. We never touched that when we were changing the ignition module or when the oil was changed before or really any time.
We just today had opened the throttle up a bit more for the idle in order to let it run.
It just HAS to be at 1150rpm Minimum in order to run at all.
'80 Long-bed c10 350: "Arianne"

Offline rich weyand

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Re: ~Engine troubles :(
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2013, 01:11:42 AM »
What do you mean "aspirated with dryer vent"?

Have you checked to see if the choke plate is closed when the truck is cold?  Does it gradually open after several minutes with the ignition key on?

How do you know the problem isn't in the carb setup?  You bought it at the beginning of summer, so you have never had the truck when it was cold out.
Rich

"Working Girl": 1978 K-10 RCSB 350/TH350/NP203 +2/+3 Tuff Country lift

Offline bd

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Re: ~Engine troubles :(
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2013, 01:39:52 AM »
Summarizing...
...Engine turns over, turns over, turns over. No spark...figured out it was the ignition module. Replaced that.

...I had also changed the oil. The stuff that was in it was very fluid.  Almost as thin as water.

CURRENT STATE:  It starts, and runs [only if I keep the throttle] at 1200rpm....  I can't put it in gear or it stalls....

Does the engine start and run any better if you bring it up to operating temperature?  Post your answers to Rich Weyand's questions...

Does it have the stock air cleaner with the heat-riser pipe and vacuum-operated door in the snorkel, or is it one of those open-element, two-chrome-pie-plates setups?

     ...and...

...Have you checked to see if the choke plate is closed when the truck is cold?  Does it gradually open after several minutes with the ignition key on?

How do you know the problem isn't in the carb setup?  You bought it at the beginning of summer, so you have never had the truck when it was cold out.

Cover your basics.  Begin narrowing the symptoms to fuel, ignition, and/or engine mechanical causes by running standard tests.  Don't assume anything and don't shortcut diagnostic procedure.  You may be wrestling more than one fault, but standard test procedures will make that evident and limit wrong guesses.

More questions to answer/ponder...
  • How long after you changed the oil did the symptoms first occur?  Did you investigate "why" the oil was 'thin?'  ???   Any chance the oil was saturated with fuel??

  • Have you checked fuel pump pressure, draw and delivery? 

  • Have you checked and/or replaced the fuel filter?

  • Have you tried removing the idle mixture screws and blowing out the idle circuits with carb cleaner and compressed air?

  • Have you verified ignition timing? 

  • Check the wiring down at and around the starter.  Any heat damage to primary insulation or loose cable connections to the starter?  Are the fuse links intact?  Is the cable guide in place that shrouds and routes the harness up the back of the cylinder head past the exhaust manifold? 

  • How many miles on the motor?  If it's turned a +100K, check the timing chain for stretch and check the timing mark on the balancer for proper indexing. 

  • Are there any more modifications from stock configuration about which you haven't told us, yet?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 01:43:07 AM by bd »
Rich
It's difficult to know just how much you don't know until you know it.
In other words... if people learn by making mistakes, by now I should know just about everything!!!
87 R10 Silverado Fleetside 355 MPFI 700R4 3.42 Locker (aka Rusty, aka Mater)

Offline ItsOniiyx

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Re: ~Engine troubles :(
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2013, 01:57:21 PM »
Sorry for my vague descriptions. -.-
I guess I'm being unclear and not realizing everyone doesn't know what I do. I'm quite new to this  ;D
Okay, the engine runs the same no matter what temperature it's running at and I'm not sure why the oil was thin.
Quote
How do you know the problem isn't in the carb setup?  You bought it at the beginning of summer, so you have never had the truck when it was cold out.
I drove it for a thousand miles before these problems began to occur and it always ran before.

Quote
Have you checked fuel pump pressure, draw and delivery?
Have you checked and/or replaced the fuel filter?
Yes, and they're all fine.

Quote
Check the wiring down at and around the starter.  Any heat damage to primary insulation or loose cable connections to the starter?  Are the fuse links intact?
No heat damage, all fuse links intact.

---
The amount of experience you guys have makes me feel stupid ;D
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 02:24:12 PM by ItsOniiyx »
'80 Long-bed c10 350: "Arianne"

Offline ItsOniiyx

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Re: ~Engine troubles :(
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2013, 02:06:22 PM »
It's a very modified truck.
The block is orange, (I'm sure they were blue in 1980)
The 2 pictures up there give a little description of what I'm dealing with. The air going in is transported via 'dryer vent'; you can unscrew the heads with your hands because they used such an odd choice of bolts (useless info, but to help my point). The ignition module was an original GM product but after replacing that was when it started needing such a high rpm to stay alive.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 02:19:04 PM by ItsOniiyx »
'80 Long-bed c10 350: "Arianne"

Offline ItsOniiyx

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Re: ~Engine troubles :(
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2013, 02:35:06 PM »
Here, I grabbed a couple more quick pictures.
'80 Long-bed c10 350: "Arianne"

Offline rich weyand

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Re: ~Engine troubles :(
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2013, 03:31:28 PM »
Quote
How do you know the problem isn't in the carb setup?  You bought it at the beginning of summer, so you have never had the truck when it was cold out.
I drove it for a thousand miles before these problems began to occur and it always ran before.

But always when it was warm out, right?  Big difference.

Take off the air cleaner.  With the engine off on a chill morning, push the accelerator to the floor once and release.  Is it on the high-idle cam, like this?  Note the screw just right of center is up against a metal plate that turns.



Is the choke plate (the hinged plate over the two front barrels) mostly closed (it is in your pics)?  Now, turn the ignition on, but do not start the engine.  Let it sit ten minutes.  Push the accelerator all the way to the floor again and release.  Is the choke plate now open, more or less straight up and down?  Is the high-idle cam disengaged, like this?  See how the metal plate rotated out of the way of the screw.



One big problem could be no heat riser.  The stock air cleaner setup should have a heat riser up from the exhaust manifold to put warm air into the carb until it heats up.  Where do you live?  How cold is it going to get there?  This is mine, hooked up to the header.



The amount of experience you guys have makes me feel stupid

Nobody was born knowing this stuff.  We all had to learn.  We'll help you out.
Rich

"Working Girl": 1978 K-10 RCSB 350/TH350/NP203 +2/+3 Tuff Country lift

Offline ItsOniiyx

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Re: ~Engine troubles :(
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2013, 05:47:19 PM »
Oh! Yes! It is opening more as it gets warmer  :o
That's a new one x)
-
Okay, well, the best way to figure something out is to dissect it more, right? We took out the entire distributor and ignition system.
Turns out, the Mechanical Advance wasn't advancing  ;D
The whole distributor was shot.
'80 Long-bed c10 350: "Arianne"

Offline ItsOniiyx

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Re: ~Engine troubles :(
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2013, 05:50:39 PM »
Thank you so much for all your help and *ahem* patience with me on my first post :)
We also did the spark plugs and it's running SOOOOO much better now. Smoother, more efficient, more power.
Stupid distributor... -.-
'80 Long-bed c10 350: "Arianne"

Offline rich weyand

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Re: ~Engine troubles :(
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2013, 07:24:26 PM »
OK, now some other things you can do when you get around to it.  I assume the carb is a 1406, which is most common.  If it's different, some of the following parts will be different.

1) Get the gaskets for splitting the Edelbrock open here: http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/1499/10002/-1.  This allows you to take the top off the carb.  Eight screws is all, and not much to disconnect to get the top off.  No fuel disconnetion.  Note: Don't lose the little clippy things on the linkages.

2) Check the adjustment of the floats per the manual here, as shown on page 8: http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/carbs_acc/pdf/carb_owners_manual.pdf.  These are always wrong, new from the factory.  If yours are right, I will be surprised.

3) While you have the carb apart, change out the primary jets to one size smaller with these: http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/1425/10002/-1.  The carb is set up rich at the factory to work with anything you bolt it on, because most people won't tune them properly.  The secondary jets are OK.

4) Put in a new accelerator pump piston while you are in there.  They wear out in a couple years and that causes stumbles in transition.  http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/1470/10002/-1

5) Put the carb back together.  Replace the primary metering rods with these, which should be real close: http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/1441/10002/-1?parentProductId=

6) When you do that, install new step-up springs.  Put in the 8# springs from this kit: http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/1464/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710905649&catargetid=1784155608&cadevice=c&&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CJai6NHAl7oCFYkWMgodrSkAYg

7) Take the fast-idle cam off, remove the plate behind it and replace it with a .095" thick 3/8" clearance washer, and put the fast-idle cam back on.  This plate is the secondary defeat when the choke is on, which is all well and good except that the failure mode is to leave you with no secondaries, which you will learn when you are passing somebody, which can make life interesting in a hurry.  Take it off, then don't dump the secondaries before the choke is off.  The eninge will stumble.

Now, these parts are all cheap, and it's not hard work, and you should learn to do this stuff anyway.  Also, put a rag in the bore of the carb, or tape it over with painter's tape, before you start removing the screws to pop the top off the carb.  Learn from this advice; the other way is to drop a screw down the intake, and that's a much more difficult education.

The other thing you should probably take care of is to put the thermostatic air cleaner and heat stove setup back on the truck.  This will help a lot in cold weather -- anything below 40 degrees actually -- and isn't hard to do.  Get the thermostatic air cleaner like in my pic above and the heat riser pipe at a salvage yard.  You can clean them up and paint them, and put a chrome top on it to make it look pretty good: http://www.chromeandbillet.com/proddetail.asp?prod=10111&gclid=CKnmuo3Il7oCFZFFMgodPgoACw.  Then you need to have the pipe hang down to where it can pull heat off the headers.  You can cut the bottom off the stock tube and then use some of this to bend it around, it's the right size to mate with the stock tube.  http://store.carropacific.com/flexibleexhaustrepairkit18x112idwclampflexibleexhaustrepairkitperformance.aspx.  This will cause the engine to warm up sooner in the winter, carburate better, give more mileage and better performance.

Rich

"Working Girl": 1978 K-10 RCSB 350/TH350/NP203 +2/+3 Tuff Country lift

Offline bd

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Re: ~Engine troubles :(
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2013, 08:27:32 PM »
Thank you so much for all your help and *ahem* patience with me on my first post :)
We also did the spark plugs and it's running SOOOOO much better now. Smoother, more efficient, more power.
Stupid distributor... -.-

Feels good dunnit?    ;D

A little basic maintenance goes a long way.

Couple aluminum valve covers make dat purdy new distributor feel right at home....   8)
Rich
It's difficult to know just how much you don't know until you know it.
In other words... if people learn by making mistakes, by now I should know just about everything!!!
87 R10 Silverado Fleetside 355 MPFI 700R4 3.42 Locker (aka Rusty, aka Mater)

Offline naisugai

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Re: ~Engine troubles :(
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2013, 12:52:01 AM »
OK, now some other things you can do when you get around to it.  I assume the carb is a 1406, which is most common.  If it's different, some of the following parts will be different.

1) Get the gaskets for splitting the Edelbrock open here: http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/1499/10002/-1.  This allows you to take the top off the carb.  Eight screws is all, and not much to disconnect to get the top off.  No fuel disconnetion.  Note: Don't lose the little clippy things on the linkages.

2) Check the adjustment of the floats per the manual here, as shown on page 8: http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/carbs_acc/pdf/carb_owners_manual.pdf.  These are always wrong, new from the factory.  If yours are right, I will be surprised.

3) While you have the carb apart, change out the primary jets to one size smaller with these: http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/1425/10002/-1.  The carb is set up rich at the factory to work with anything you bolt it on, because most people won't tune them properly.  The secondary jets are OK.

4) Put in a new accelerator pump piston while you are in there.  They wear out in a couple years and that causes stumbles in transition.  http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/1470/10002/-1

5) Put the carb back together.  Replace the primary metering rods with these, which should be real close: http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/1441/10002/-1?parentProductId=

6) When you do that, install new step-up springs.  Put in the 8# springs from this kit: http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/1464/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710905649&catargetid=1784155608&cadevice=c&&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CJai6NHAl7oCFYkWMgodrSkAYg

7) Take the fast-idle cam off, remove the plate behind it and replace it with a .095" thick 3/8" clearance washer, and put the fast-idle cam back on.  This plate is the secondary defeat when the choke is on, which is all well and good except that the failure mode is to leave you with no secondaries, which you will learn when you are passing somebody, which can make life interesting in a hurry.  Take it off, then don't dump the secondaries before the choke is off.  The eninge will stumble.

Now, these parts are all cheap, and it's not hard work, and you should learn to do this stuff anyway.  Also, put a rag in the bore of the carb, or tape it over with painter's tape, before you start removing the screws to pop the top off the carb.  Learn from this advice; the other way is to drop a screw down the intake, and that's a much more difficult education.

The other thing you should probably take care of is to put the thermostatic air cleaner and heat stove setup back on the truck.  This will help a lot in cold weather -- anything below 40 degrees actually -- and isn't hard to do.  Get the thermostatic air cleaner like in my pic above and the heat riser pipe at a salvage yard.  You can clean them up and paint them, and put a chrome top on it to make it look pretty good: http://www.chromeandbillet.com/proddetail.asp?prod=10111&gclid=CKnmuo3Il7oCFZFFMgodPgoACw.  Then you need to have the pipe hang down to where it can pull heat off the headers.  You can cut the bottom off the stock tube and then use some of this to bend it around, it's the right size to mate with the stock tube.  http://store.carropacific.com/flexibleexhaustrepairkit18x112idwclampflexibleexhaustrepairkitperformance.aspx.  This will cause the engine to warm up sooner in the winter, carburate better, give more mileage and better performance.

Great info!  I am definitely placing my order tonight and getting the suggested parts.  I bought my truck a year ago and it came with a edelbrock performer 1406 carb and intake.  Truck hesitates alot off and on and sometimes backfires through the carb.  There is a raw gas smell at times also and the bowl area is a little wet.
Tried to post a video, but this forum would not let me.