Author Topic: Building a pre-oiler  (Read 3660 times)

Offline jeremy.farlow

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Building a pre-oiler
« on: May 20, 2020, 03:44:51 PM »
I’m building an engine.
I have A LOT of money in it.
I’d like to do EVERYTHING possible to keep from grenading this expensive engine immediately.

I’m fully aware I could BUY a prelube setup... save I haven’t had an income since January. I’d rather not BUY anything I don’t have to right now.

I have this:


Pressure pot with fittings rated at double the pressure any Chevy oil pump generates.

And this:




I’ve got this:


Concept is to shove oil, as of from the engine driven pump, though the pressurized side of one of these points:


Right???

Am I missing anything? Replicate the work being done by the engine BEFORE the engine has to do it? Shove oil into the nooks and crannies... fill the galleys, theoretically WATCH it happen by pulling the valve covers? Make a mess that way...

Is it just that simple, or am I missing some crucial element?

I’m thinking the nice thing using the pressure pot is I can drain the sump a number of times and KEEP shoving oil through the system. Spin the crank while I’m doing so. Make sure I have a totally oiled engine before I let her rip.

Is it just that simple, or am I missing something?

Jeremy

Offline JohnnyPopper

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2020, 08:22:34 PM »
 I get your being cautious, it will probably fill some oil passages but most of it will bleed off.

If you have used assembly grease on all the vulnerable parts you should be fine.

Let us know how it goes, please.  ;D
1957 Apache 3100 235 Inline 6, 3 on the tree
1973 C-20, 3+3 454 4BBL TH400  Water Injection
1978 K-10, 350 4BBL TH350 NP203 M.M. Part time Kit/Hubs
1980 C-10 under construction

Offline bigben5054

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2020, 08:01:07 AM »
I am not familiar with what you are trying to do.  What are those two fittings for - engine oil cooler?  Anyways, doesn't an oil pump primer (free loan-a-tool at most auto parts stores) do the same thing?  Plenty of assembly lube, fuel in the carb and distributor in close to where it needs to be and I think you'll be fine.

Offline FlatBlack77

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2020, 08:08:04 AM »
I am not familiar with what you are trying to do.  What are those two fittings for - engine oil cooler?  Anyways, doesn't an oil pump primer (free loan-a-tool at most auto parts stores) do the same thing?  Plenty of assembly lube, fuel in the carb and distributor in close to where it needs to be and I think you'll be fine.

This is the correct tool for the job. You can even make one out of an old distributor and a drill.

You are being very cautious, that is great. Assuming you have taken every other precaution possible, you could fire up the engine without priming and it will have pressure right away. Even better would be an oil pump primer.

In my opinion your method is like going the really long way around instead of taking the direct route
"When you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail"
'77 C/10 - 350/350 mild street motor

Offline jeremy.farlow

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2020, 08:52:50 AM »
Both Comp Cams and Melling advise a pre-oiler as the absolute best way to assure lubrication. I’m fully aware I can pull the distributor and develop oil pressure. Comp says that’s the SECOND best method... after pressurized oil injection.
I’ve got better than $10k in this motor... I’m willing to take out every insurance policy I can.
Is it absolutely necessary? Maybe not, but I’m OUT of money and I’ve got 99% of what I need to make this thing. I may be missing a fitting here or there, but that’s easy to fix.
So yeah... I can use a drill to spin the oil pump... I could just wing and prayer it, fire the engine and HOPE for the best... I could also score the bearings immediately. I’d rather not do that.

Jeremy

Offline jeremy.farlow

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2020, 08:55:04 AM »
Yes... those are the oil cooler fittings. They’ll likely need blocked off.

Offline FlatBlack77

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2020, 09:10:55 AM »
Fair enough. I wasnt trying to come across in a negative way.

I am curious about this so I hope you keep this going and post lots of pics and info
"When you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail"
'77 C/10 - 350/350 mild street motor

Offline ehjorten

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2020, 09:47:13 AM »
I have built 6 engines that are a combination of SBC and BBC.  Every single one I have used assembly lube and a oil pump pre-luber attached to a drill.  Connect a oil pressure gauge and spin it up to pressure.  I have never had a problem. I am sure your method will work just fine. As long as your engine fires right up and you are not excessively cranking it, there will be little in the way of wear for those few seconds before oil pressure builds.
-Erik-
1991 V3500 - Gen V TBI 454, 4L80E, NP205, 14 bolt FF, D60, 8" Lift on 35s
1977 K20 Silverado - 350, THM350, NP203, 14 bolt FF, D44, Stock Lift on 31s
1969 Chevelle Malibu Sport Coupe - EFI350, THM350
1968 Chevrolet Step-side Pickup - 300HP L6

Offline bd

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2020, 11:45:50 AM »
Jeremy, we all understand your concern and might proceed similarly with that extent of investment.  Besides, judicious care is a rewarding aspect of any high-performance build.  It's part of the journey.  But consider this, if bearings score it will be from a block or oil pump that wasn't effectively clean, from debris that was introduced during assembly, or from bearings that were poorly fitted.  All of the pre-lubing in the world won't compensate for any of those issues.

That stated, it sounds like you have a workable plan to dot every "i" and should proceed with that plan so that you can enjoy the satisfaction that it brings.  Just be sure that your pre-lube setup is spotlessly clean and doesn't inadvertently introduce particle contamination.  BTW - pre-lubing with the valve covers removed and the engine off shouldn't create a mess.   8)

How much oil pressure do you project for the engine once it's running?
Rich
It's difficult to know just how much you don't know until you know it.
In other words... if people learn by making mistakes, by now I should know just about everything!!!
87 R10 Silverado Fleetside 355 MPFI 700R4 3.42 Locker (aka Rusty, aka Mater)

Offline jeremy.farlow

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2020, 01:20:31 PM »
The pump I’m using is a Summit high volume pump. It’s basically a stock replacement item, but I’m not finding any specs for pressure. The bearing clearances are on the tighter side. My guess would be 60-70 psi cold, likely dropping 15 psi or so warm???


Jeremy

Offline bd

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2020, 02:14:08 PM »
Just curious, why a Summit HV rather than Melling or Moroso, and why high volume with tight bearings?  Is it driven by a hardened ARP or equivalent shaft?
Rich
It's difficult to know just how much you don't know until you know it.
In other words... if people learn by making mistakes, by now I should know just about everything!!!
87 R10 Silverado Fleetside 355 MPFI 700R4 3.42 Locker (aka Rusty, aka Mater)

Offline fitz

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2020, 04:06:14 PM »
  I had great luck with the modified distributor on a drill method, but then again, I didn't have a $10k motor.  I can see why you want to take every option available to protect your motor.
  The 1 thing my machine shop told me to do once the motor built oil pressure (verified by the gauge and the valvetrain with the valve covers removed) was to rotate the motor by hand a few times then repeat the priming process.
  I'm not sure what this accomplished or if it was necessary.   Has anyone ever heard of this? Maybe BD can shed some light on this. 
I'd love to hear the specs on your new motor.

Offline jeremy.farlow

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2020, 05:19:48 PM »
Tight bearings because I plan on running a lightweight synthetic oil and changing it frequently. Cheap high-volume pump for two reasons. First, ultimately I want a dry-sump motor. Second, it’s a truck, with stuff like the previously mentioned oil cooler and space... TONS of space... for a big, deep sump, I chose cheaper, matched parts, with the view of them as semi-temporary.
Even prior to the current unpleasantness I still had a budget as well. Just a much larger budget than I would allow myself currently. I think it’s like an 8-quart pan I’m using, with the high volume pump. The cooler will add at least another quart.
My theory, currently is LOTS of oil, cleaned efficiently, with a big sump to let particulate fall into. Ultimately I desire a tiny little sump, with an even bigger reservoir, pushing a lot of oil through the engine. Trying to use what mama GM gave us... LOTS of room... behind the cross-member and just in general... MORE oil means more oil to heat up and longer before the oil breaks down. Seemed pretty common sense at the time. Being that the current unpleasantness is gonna set back later stages... maybe it’s another hindsight moment... but I think I’m okay. The Summit setup is by no means “SEXY”... but I think it should work fine. I did spring for the ARP driveshaft. Another bit of cheap insurance from my perspective.
To the point of this topic: we all agree that SOMETHING needs be done to assure the engine is fully lubed before it’s run in anger. However that happens seems to be the debate. I’m not gonna spend a foolish amount of time in this pursuit... but I am blessed with means different and beyond many. I’ve got the pressure pot. Chances are I’ve got a fitting to make the transition with and I’ve got time... I don’t like WASTING that precious time... but I also cannot afford to repair/rebuild/replace this engine at this point. And I wanna DRIVE this truck. So the cost/benefit analysis is this:

If I have, on hand, a means to shove pressurized oil through the galleys, is there a reason not to? On top of that I WILL make certain the oil pump is primed and working properly by driving it as intended. Points about cleanliness have been received... ultimately THATS my biggest concern as well, as a metal/wood fabrication shop is NOT the best place to build an engine. All that said, hooking up the pressure pot and visually verifying oil flow cannot hurt. I’m not gonna run the pressure pot beyond 40-50psi and I see it as cheap insurance... and a day at the shop during quarantine. My concern was that I was missing... something.
Necessary step?!? Up for debate. If I can put it all together in a mild, quarantine day at the shop, unless I’m risking damaging something, I don’t see a downside.



Jeremy

Offline JohnnyPopper

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2020, 08:52:16 PM »
No downside.

Thanks for the inspiration, reinstalling a 383, will run the pump first, go through a couple of quarts of cheap Penzoil to clear out the galleys while she's turning over on the engine stand.
1957 Apache 3100 235 Inline 6, 3 on the tree
1973 C-20, 3+3 454 4BBL TH400  Water Injection
1978 K-10, 350 4BBL TH350 NP203 M.M. Part time Kit/Hubs
1980 C-10 under construction

Offline bd

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2020, 10:12:35 PM »
Based on your reasoning and thorough explanations I don't believe you've overlooked a/g.  Certainly, you will not harm a/g by pre-lubing using a pressure pot.  Quite the contrary.  My only passing thought, again based on your comments, is to consider running the pressurized pre-lube through a good inline oil filter just prior to oil galley injection using an oil filter sans internal bypass, guaranteeing that undetected particle contamination is captured before introduction to the lube system. 

Building the oil pressure to as low as 30 PSI should be more than adequate since there will be little bearing load on the rotating assembly, meaning that your plan of 40-50 PSI is spot-on IMHO.  Spring loads imposed on the camshaft bearings and valvetrain are irrelevant at cranking RPM if the components were suitably lubricated during assembly, as I am sure they were.

So, I see no downside to your plan.
Rich
It's difficult to know just how much you don't know until you know it.
In other words... if people learn by making mistakes, by now I should know just about everything!!!
87 R10 Silverado Fleetside 355 MPFI 700R4 3.42 Locker (aka Rusty, aka Mater)