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73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => 73-87 Chevy & GMC Trucks => Topic started by: JuneBug on December 30, 2012, 09:26:46 AM

Title: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: JuneBug on December 30, 2012, 09:26:46 AM
My truck would not shut off when the key was removed so I finally figured that the ignition switch was bad.  It is on the column and not easy to get too. I had help removing it but now I am not sure how the actuator rod was positioned.  It doesn't seem to fit under the ignition switch so I am a little lost.  Any help with pictures would be great.  I need to see how the actuator rod and the ignition switch fit together.
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: Irish_Alley on December 30, 2012, 10:36:10 AM
http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php/topic,12525.0.html this might help
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: eric_haakenson on December 30, 2012, 03:05:38 PM
Dude I'm having the same problem on a 85 Chevy Suburban.
I can't even see the ignition switch.
Is the ignition switch on the top of the steering column above the turn signal switch & the dimmer actuator?
If it is do I have to drop the steering column to get at it?
Also, I looked at linked Tilt column repair images, great shots & helpful, but it did not include changing the ignition switch so I am still at a loss.
Any pics of the ignition switch repair?
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: Captkaos on December 30, 2012, 03:11:50 PM
The ingnition rack is at the bottom:

(http://www.73-87chevytrucks.com/techinfo/tilt_repair/reassem3.jpg)




The ingnition switch removal is at the top:
(http://www.73-87chevytrucks.com/techinfo/tilt_repair/switchremove.jpg)
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: bd on December 30, 2012, 04:01:21 PM
Fig. 1 - Ignition switch.
Fig. 2 - Note the small round hole in the "Switch Slider."
Fig. 3 - The actuator rod (#29) inserts into the "Switch Slider" in the bottom of the ignition switch (#24).
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: JuneBug on March 23, 2013, 08:40:14 PM
Ok,  So I got some time to actually work on the truck again.  I changed the ignition switch on the steering column.  That is not something I want to have to do again anytime soon.  Its in such a hard place to get to. 

I am still having the dilemma with the truck not shutting off.  Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't.  It is also draining my battery.  I figure there is something not shutting off correctly but I am at a complete loss for what it could be.  She starts fine, no problems.  I turn her off and pull the key and she remains on for about another two minutes until she finally shuts down on her own. 

I have followed wires, checked everyone I can see and I don't see anything wrong with them.  A little history on the truck: 87' Chevy Silverado, V10, Step-side, 350 V8 5.7L.  Originally had throttle body but when my mom bought it they had replaced the engine.  It now has an Edelbrock 650, electric choke and has been upgraded to an HEI.

I need help. I have searched all over and found the same issues but never any solutions.  PLEASE HELP ME GET MY BABY STRAIGHT!!!!   
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: JuneBug on March 23, 2013, 09:48:49 PM
Dude I'm having the same problem on a 85 Chevy Suburban.
I can't even see the ignition switch.
Is the ignition switch on the top of the steering column above the turn signal switch & the dimmer actuator?
If it is do I have to drop the steering column to get at it?
Also, I looked at linked Tilt column repair images, great shots & helpful, but it did not include changing the ignition switch so I am still at a loss.
Any pics of the ignition switch repair?


Did you ever get a fix to your problem?
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: bd on March 23, 2013, 10:42:18 PM
As a quick check, unplug the 2-wire regulator lead from the alternator to see if any of your symptoms go away.  BTW - have you done any work to the cab wiring or dash gauges?

To be more thorough, with the key OFF, unplug the 2-wire regulator plug from the alternator (see image).  Use a test light clipped to a good ground to probe the wires entering the regulator plug.  Verify that the #1 lead is dead and that the #2 lead is battery positive (the #2 lead is a short jumper connecting to the alternator battery post). 

With the key still OFF and the regulator plug still disconnected from the alternator, probe the #1 regulator terminal and then the #2 regulator terminal in the alternator being careful to avoid touching either terminal to ground - both should be dead. 

Now, with the regulator lead still unplugged from the alternator, turn the key ON, but do not start the engine.  Probe the #1 regulator lead - it should be hot, but less than battery voltage.

Report back with what you find out.
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: JuneBug on March 24, 2013, 09:06:19 AM
What exactly is that supposed to do?  Could my alternator be bad?
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: bd on March 24, 2013, 12:10:52 PM
The symptoms you described imply the distributor continues to receive power after the key is switched OFF.  The checks I mentioned starts the diagnostic process to determine the source of that unwanted power source.  At this point we want to narrow the possibilities.

You mentioned two symptoms: (1) the engine continues to run for ~2 minutes after the key is switched OFF, and (2) something is draining the battery.  The previously described checks are preliminary tests for both conditions.

Here's why...
If power is discovered on the #1 regulator lead with the key OFF, the battery will discharge through the alternator field windings when the engine isn't running and the battery will go dead (symptom #2).  It also would indicate the ignition circuit is improperly powered by an unwanted source other than the charging system (symptom #1).

On the other hand, if the engine consistently shuts off with the key while the alternator is unplugged, then the alternator wiring is the problem.  More on this later if this is the case. 

Disconnecting the alternator plug "opens" the alternator field circuit, partially isolates the charging system, and temporarily removes it from the diagnostic equation.  The 'test light checks' initially evaluate the wiring and alternator for a more complete preliminary diagnosis of both complaints.  Until you perform some tests, any "It's the..." answer is totally arbitrary, costly, and delays a proper repair.

At this early point, I suspect you have a wiring issue.  Hence, the previous question, "BTW - have you done any work to the cab wiring or dash gauges?"  But, the tests are required to isolate where.
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: JuneBug on March 24, 2013, 02:42:49 PM
Okay, so I did what you described.  Wires are hooked up properly.  Even with the alternator unplugged the truck still runs are shutting off the key until you disconnect the battery. 

As for rewiring, someone messed with the wiring for my mom.  I don't have a tach, and the installed a separate temp gauge. I do wonder if it is the wiring on the distributor.  Attached are two pictures of the distributor.  There is a red wire from the distributor is not connected (should that be for the + 12v) and the white wire from the distributor is connected to the red wire in the wiring harness.  Should the white wire be the tach?
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: bd on March 24, 2013, 05:25:46 PM
...There is a red wire from the distributor [that] is not connected (should that be for the + 12v) and the white wire from the distributor is connected to the red wire in the wiring harness.  Should the white wire be the tach?

Your distributor may be wired directly to battery.

The top of the distributor is labeled "BAT" and "TACH" (see attached image).  12-volt ignition power controlled by the ignition switch is supposed to feed the terminal labeled "BAT" via a 10- or 12-gauge wire.  Looking at your images, both wires appear undersized, which can starve the ignition system (an additional problem to the other problems you've identified).
Post an update.
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: JuneBug on March 25, 2013, 06:35:40 AM
White wire is hooked to the BAT terminal on the distributor.  From the other tests performed, the wire is always 12-V hot.  At first it was dead key off, then key on it went hot and after I turned the key off it stayed hot.
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: bd on March 25, 2013, 07:49:45 PM
Is it safe to say that after you disconnect and reconnect the battery, the 'white' wire is still hot?  Or, does it reset to 'dead' until you cycle the key ON?
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: JuneBug on March 25, 2013, 08:05:46 PM
That is correct. Unhooking the battery rests the wire back to to zero.
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: bd on March 25, 2013, 09:52:42 PM
OUCH!  This just keeps getting more interesting...

Cobbled wiring, mismatched wire size, and maybe a relay that is self-energizing(?).  Somewhere between the distributor and ignition switch, wires are melted/chafed together or otherwise connected that shouldn't be. 

When you inspected the wiring did you lay the entire length of loom and harness open and physically trace the 'red' ignition wire, inch-by-inch, all the way back through the bulkhead connector to the ignition switch, so that you visually inspected the entire run of wires?  If not, at this point you’ll need to do that.  This may seem a silly (obvious) comment, but you need to find out exactly how the distributor was wired to its power source at the time of engine replacement.  Download and use the 87 Wiring Diagrams (http://www.73-87chevytrucks.com/techinfo/7387CKMans//Wiring/ST_350_87_1987_Chevrolet_GMC_Light_Truck_Wiring_Manual_Complete_11x17.pdf) (beginning about page 163) from our Technical Pages (http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php/topic,25639.msg213706.html#msg213706).  Earlier, you stated the 'white' wire is spliced to a 'red' wire.  Are any other wires spliced into that 'red' wire?

Some other things to look for while your tracing the harness...

Is there a 12-gauge pink wire in the engine compartment harness that was cut off and abandoned or connected into other wiring?  The '87 TBI harness used a dedicated 12-gauge pink wire to power the distributor directly from the ignition switch through the bulkhead connector.  The '87 TBI injector power feeds were 18-gauge red and white wires that spliced into an 18-gauge pink/black wire (along with five or so other pink/black wires) that received “fused ignition power” from the ignition switch.  Perhaps the ‘fused ignition circuit’ was used to power the distributor.
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: JuneBug on March 25, 2013, 10:09:23 PM
Ugh!!!  This truck!!! I love it but currently want to shoot it.  We did not pull at the wiring.  Is that your suggestion?  At this point I am not sure how they wired it when they put the new engine in. We followed the wires but loose track of some as the enter the dash area.  There is so much splicing that it would make you dizzy.  We have tried to fix what we new was wrong or remove wires that we know for certain were not needed. 

I don't think another wire was spliced into the red one but I will check tomorrow.  I was thinking of buying a new wiring harness until I saw the cost.  It isn't something that I can afford at the moment.  I'm gonna take the hood off the truck so that I can get a better view of the distributor.  and maybe I will have better answers to your questions.

BTW, I appreciate all your help so far.  You're AWESOME!!!
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: bd on March 25, 2013, 10:45:59 PM
Take a deep breath!  You can resolve this problem if you remain patient, work systematically and don't shortcut.  In a nutshell, you will have to visually trace every inch of the "ignition" wiring, from the ignition switch, all the way to the distributor.  That means you will need to physically pull the harness out of the loom and look at it.  Somewhere in that length of run the wiring is compromised.  I'll try to answer any questions you have along the way.  Be prepared to string new wire, if necessary.  And, don't neglect the linked resources.  With any luck and careful observation, the problem will soon resolve.
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: JuneBug on March 25, 2013, 11:11:35 PM
I know I will eventually solve it but I am a instant gratification person. LOL.  I am learning to be patient.  When you speak of ignition switch are you refering to the one on top of the column or the one in the column.  I may be getting my parts mixed up.  I replace the one on top of the column.  It was hard to reach and I had to lower the column to get to it.  Everyone I have spoken to so far besides you have said that was the issue so I went with it and replaced it.  So not my issue!!
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: bd on March 25, 2013, 11:46:13 PM
...When you speak of ignition switch are you refering to the one on top of the column or the one in the column.  I may be getting my parts mixed up.  I replace the one on top of the column.  It was hard to reach and I had to lower the column to get to it.  Everyone I have spoken to so far besides you have said that was the issue so I went with it and replaced it.  So not my issue!!

The "ignition switch" is the electrical component you replaced on top of the column.  The "lock cylinder" is the component in the column, just below the steering wheel on the right.  The lock cylinder is simply a key lock mechanism.  "Key switch" is a misnomer often used in substitution for lock cylinder.

It's awfully late for me to bring this up, but how did you adjust the ignition switch?
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: JuneBug on March 30, 2013, 10:03:45 AM
Sorry, haven't been able to look at the truck this week.  When I adjusted the switch the key was off and the acuator rod was hooked to the switch in the locked position. 

Another part of this that has me baffled is that their is a wire on the battery connector that heats up when the lights are turned on and only when they are on.  I tell you, the wiring in this truck is driving me crazy. 
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: JuneBug on March 30, 2013, 12:59:37 PM
Well I found a baby blue wire jumped in with the ignition. But didn't hook to anything else. Removed the wire and truck start and turns off now. Not sure what the baby blue wire was for. Everything seems to be working without it.
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: bd on March 30, 2013, 03:03:47 PM
Well I found a baby blue wire jumped in with the ignition. But didn't hook to anything else. Removed the wire and truck start and turns off now. Not sure what the baby blue wire was for. Everything seems to be working without it.
...Another part of this that has me baffled is that their is a wire on the battery connector that heats up when the lights are turned on and only when they are on.  I tell you, the wiring in this truck is driving me crazy. 

A little more detail on both of these, please.

And, don't forget, the ignition feed wire to the distributor should be 12-gauge all the way through from the ignition switch.  Any smaller and the HEI will be undernourished.  Did you discover that 12-gauge pink I mentioned, lurking anywhere in the harness?
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: JuneBug on March 30, 2013, 06:31:48 PM
The white wire that comes out of the distributor connects to the large pink wire.  Then that wire goes all the way to the fuse box.  Boy was that a pain to follow. The red wire that comes out of the distributor is not connected to anything.

Now for the other issues - somebody used the baby blue wire as a jumper from the pink wire to an orange wire that stays hot at all times.  I think it was tied into the parking brake.  The parking brake light used to stay on all the time. Now it doesn't.  Not sure what the purpose of the jumper would be. 

I believe the issue with the cable on the battery is that the gauge is wrong.  I have attached a picture of the wire at the batter and where they connected it to a red wire.

Lastly, it may sound stupid but the last photo I posted...... what is it?
Title: Re: Ignition Switch and Actuator Rod Question - 87 Chevy V10
Post by: bd on March 31, 2013, 02:40:46 AM
The white wire that comes out of the distributor connects to the large pink wire.  Then that wire goes all the way to the fuse box.  Boy was that a pain to follow. The red wire that comes out of the distributor is not connected to anything.

Now for the other issues - somebody used the baby blue wire as a jumper from the pink wire to an orange wire that stays hot at all times.  I think it was tied into the parking brake.  The parking brake light used to stay on all the time. Now it doesn't.  Not sure what the purpose of the jumper would be. 

I believe the issue with the cable on the battery is that the gauge is wrong.  I have attached a picture of the wire at the batter and where they connected it to a red wire.

Lastly, it may sound stupid but the last photo I posted...... what is it?

Easy question, first.  The lower image is the intermittent (delay) wiper module.   :)

The 'large pink wire' is most likely the circuit used to power the original 87 HEI distributor.  This is good.  But the short section of undersized 'white wire' spliced to it should be replaced with an equivalent length of 12-gauge (preferably pink) wire.  The unused short red wire coming from the distributor can be removed, ignored, or used for a tach.

"Orange" is the traditional GM color for "fused battery power."  I suspect someone jumpered the orange and pink wires together because the 'orange' circuit lost power at some point.   Hacks!  This is a good example of why you always want to properly diagnose and repair a problem rather than just "make it work!"   ::)

"Red" is the traditional GM color for "unfused battery power" - in other words, a primary 12-volt feed.  But, in fact, the red 12-volt feeds are generally protected from the factory by fusible links, which are actually durable, slow-blow fuses.  Have you discovered where the 'blue' (red) wire connected to battery physically goes?  See if that wire connects to the firewall junction block or runs directly to the firewall bulkhead connector.  Does it run through a fuse link?  Try to determine if more than just the headlamps are powered through it, etc.  For the 'blue' wire to heat up, it's undersized for the current load, which can also be interpreted as overused (too many circuits attached to it).  So, before making changes, let's figure out what they did and what they were trying to accomplish.  We don't want to make matters worse.  Hot wiring is a very bad thing!