73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Engine/Drivetrain => Topic started by: nativetexan on June 06, 2007, 08:19:13 AM
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Okay, need some input. I'm new here and am sooooo thankful that this website is out there. I just got my grandads 87 Silverado. I have lots of plans for this truck and hopefuly he will still be alive to see it finished. My first step is to rebuild the transmission and engine. So, my question is what's a good price for a total tranny rebuild. I will be taking it out and puting it in so we are talking about just the benchwork on it. Any advice ideas price ranges? Any advice is good.
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What kind of transmission? TH400, TH350 or 700R4?
We can only give ballpark figures, but around here it breaks down like this:
TH400 = $350
TH350 = $250
700R4 = $650
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I was under the truck trying to guess by lookin at the pan shape, I think it is the TH400. My truck is an AT so, could it be the 400? Anyway, is there anything I should request or pay close attenetion to. The guy that's doin it is my boss's close friend so I aint worried about getting screwed but, I wanted to know if there were any upgrades I should think about while the tranny's on the bench.
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Also, I forgot, My boss said he had his done on his 92 for 750, is that a little too high. does it have anything to do with location. Im in TX. Is that typical.
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$750 for a 700R4 is ok, but, in my opinion, not for a TH400.
Check the attached pic for trans identification
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Okay, I think it might be the 350. I remember it being pretty much squared except for the little slant on the corner where the drain bolt is. So, maybe he will go down once he knows it is a th350.
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Why do you want to rebuild it anyway? Is there a problem with it?
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Yeah, the truck is coming up to 300,000 miles so I figured it was time, but also there are some noticeable problems. It wont shift gears all the time and when it does it jerks real bad.
Also, i got a update another friend of mine says his dad has a 400 at the shop from an 85 that they swapped with a new one for time reasons. He rebuilt it and now it is on the bench just sittin there. Is the 400 better than the 350? Would this be a step up from what i have now. and what would be a good price on that? If I let him have mine it should be fairly cheaper right??
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The TH400 is stronger than the TH350, but it is overkill for a daily driver. If you plan to tow A LOT, it would be ok.
I don't think it would be warranted since it takes more power using a TH400. If you are going to upgrade a driver, I would go with a 700R4 or a 200R4 personally.
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Sooo, maybe I will just aim for mine to get rebuilt. Any other suggestions.
Oh yeah another friend said he would rebuild it for $300 on the bench and $650 for removal and install added.
Is that an okay deal??
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You're at $950 there and do you trust this friend? Did you actually determine what trans you have?
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Woops, I meant $300 if I brought it to him . Or, $650 if he removed it and installed it. And yeah he's trust worthy.
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I wish prices were that low in CA. I priced around at some shops that do performance trannys and my number was WAY higher. I did get mine built completly though. The only thing i'm pissed about is after paying out the a$# you would thing the rear main would be new. but mine just started leaking. time 4 a trip back to the shop
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You are basically paying for labor on all of those prices. You can get a th400 or th350 complete overhaul kit for 50 bucks, and for 50 more you can get a shift kit. I'd ask around. I shopped around for awhile and found the "back door deal" at the local Cottman Trans. Center where the guy did it in his spare time, complete rebuild with shift kit, for $350. He also deleted the downshift cable. My dad is now happily tearing up the asphalt with that tranny. It pulls hard. I can honestly say you'd be happier with the acceleration and mileage from a TH350 becuase of the gear ratios.
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What ever you do replace the torque converter. A buddy of mine does transmissions and he won't warranty one unless it has a new converter.
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So NativeTexan, did we ever figure out which tranny you have? Is your truck a 3 speed or does it have overdrive?
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Okay, I got under there again to verify the trans. It is a 700R4 and I talked to my brother in law (my sister in law's husband) that told me his dad might be willing to help me rebuild it on our own. He has more than enough experience to do it and that is realy the way I want to go with this truck. Hands on, doin as much as I can myself. Soo, if he comes through, this is probably what I will end up doing.
As for the rebuild kit, I found this one on Summitracing. ::
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=TCI%2D379100&N=700+4294854624+4294908216+4294925008+4294903956+4294854612+115&autoview=sku
Is this enough to rebuild a transmission with well over 200,000 miles on it??
And as for the TC. I found this performance one at summit as well::
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=BMM%2D70419&N=700+4294865449+4294908216+4294903956+4294865415+4294791122+4294925008+4294865443+115&autoview=sku
Is this a good choice?? If not, anyone have a better one in mind??
Thanks for all the input already. You guys rock!
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I think you want this one if it is bad, it should have everything in it.
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=TCI%2D378800&N=700+4294854624+4294903956+115&autoview=sku
As for a stall, I wouldn't run a 2400 stall behind a stock pickup, I would just replace it with a stock one. If your are rebuilding it yourself and the stall is good, just reuse it...
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I think you want this one if it is bad, it should have everything in it.
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=TCI%2D378800&N=700+4294854624+4294903956+115&autoview=sku
As for a stall, I wouldn't run a 2400 stall behind a stock pickup, I would just replace it with a stock one. If your are rebuilding it yourself and the stall is good, just reuse it...
Is the only thing different about the two kits the shift kit? Cause i've read on here that a shift kit causes more wear and tear on the trans. Is this true? Also, why not a 2400 stall? It wont be stock for long. Im thinkin about the ZZ383 from GM to go in place of the 350 L05. Does that change your opinion? Is that what you meant by stock?
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You can buy a performance converter for half that price at your transmission parts supplier. Find out who your local trans builders buy their parts from you'd be amazed. Your master overhaul kit you can get for less than a hundred bucks and the most essential other things you will need is a piston compressor, a seal installer and an ATSG 700R4 book. You should upgrade the servo and modify the PR valve. A shift kit is a good thing not a bad thing unless you buy one of those cheesy B&M shift improver kits that just holds tv pressure longer and gives you a harsh shift. Your trans supply shop should be able to give you all of the necessary upgrades too. You should ID your trans and find out exactly what year 700R4 you have also. If you search the posts you'll see where to properly ID the 700R4 and how to decode it.
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You can buy a performance converter for half that price at your transmission parts supplier. Find out who your local trans builders buy their parts from you'd be amazed. Your master overhaul kit you can get for less than a hundred bucks and the most essential other things you will need is a piston compressor, a seal installer and an ATSG 700R4 book. You should upgrade the servo and modify the PR valve. A shift kit is a good thing not a bad thing unless you buy one of those cheesy B&M shift improver kits that just holds tv pressure longer and gives you a harsh shift. Your trans supply shop should be able to give you all of the necessary upgrades too. You should ID your trans and find out exactly what year 700R4 you have also. If you search the posts you'll see where to properly ID the 700R4 and how to decode it.
Okay,
lets brake this down for me. (Im a newb so we gotta go slow) ;D
1)Look for a torque converter localy instead of dishin out the extra cheddar for a mail order one. One that is somewhere in the 2000 rpm stall range(??)
2)the master overhaul kit you refer to is the ... transmission rebuild kit? If so where can I get one for under $100?
3)Whet the crap is a piston compressor!? ???
4) get a rear seal installer like this one:: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=WMR%2DW84019&N=700+321602+115&autoview=sku and replace my rear seal. and get a service book on my transmission.
5)what does a servo do and can I bolt it on after the tranny is rebuilt. What do you think about this one here:: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=TCI%2D376005&N=700+305398+4294903956+115&autoview=sku
6)What is a PR valve? ???
7) can you recomend a shift kit, and will there be things from the rebuild kit that i wont use if I do a shift kit? I guess what I mean is, if I do a rebuild and the do a shift kit (hypotheticly) will I be taking parts from the rebuild out and putting parts from the shift kit in their place?
Sorry i'm a high maintanence poster but like I said, i'm a newb.
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I think what Vile is indicating is to get everything locally.
That is where my buddy that rebuilt transmissions got his. He worked for a dealership and the company supplied transmission parts to all of them, that is where he got all of his stuff. Short of rebuilding the pump, he could go through a TH350 and the kit to rebuild it cost him $65. He would sell them for $275. So, I would suggest getting everything locally, unless there isn't a place.
1)You can have your stall check out, I wouldn't replace it if it isn't bad. I had one chopped and rebuilt for $75.
2) master overhaul it a complete rebuild kit. (look locally)
3) tool to compress the components into the drum... this is one: http://www.thepartsbin.com/cartools/transmission-clutch_spring_compressor-d.html
4) that is a rear main seal remover for an engine.
5)Servo tightens the band on the transmission, it is replaced after the rebuild
6)See Viles explination below.......
7) Transgo makes a good shift kit.
http://www.technicalvideos.com/ has videos and manuals on how to rebuild a trans.
This is a tech article on rebuilding a TH350: http://www.carcraft.com/projectbuild/116_9508_th350_automatic_transmission_rebuild_buildup/
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I am going to go in my garage right now and make a lip seal installer in about 30 seconds of my time and I'll take pix. I will also take pix of the piston compressor you will need to remove the low reverse piston. You should also have some really good LONG snap ring pliers.
PR= Pressure Regulator it is in the pump housing. Your TV boost valve is there also. TV means Throttle Valve. The 700R4 uses TV pressure and governer pressure to control shifts. TV pressure is directly proportional to driver demand and is derived from main line pressure. Main line pressure comes from the pump and PR assembly. Basically TV pressure VS Governer pressure. Governer pressure is directly proportional to road speed or output speed. When TV pressure overcomes governer pressure it forces a downshift. When Gov pressure rises above TV pressure an upshift occurs.
You can enlarge the orifice behind the front pump seal to 1/4" too to help prevent converter bushing failure and front seal leakage.
The Servo is used to apply the intermediate (second gear) band which holds the drum. You don't have to buy a new servo just buy a servo kit. Using your existing servo you will reverse and eliminate a few select parts and install new spring. This will fuction the same as your "high performance" one for about $20 bucks.
ID what year your trans is = very important.
Get yourself some trans Gel or a tub of vaseline, no not for that :P for assembly. DO NOT USE GREASE!
Finally get the ATSG book this will be your best investment. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ATSG-TECH-MANUAL-700R4-1982-THRU-1986-GMC-CHEVY_W0QQitemZ260118926884QQcmdZViewItem
All of this stuff can be bought at your transmission parts distributor. I use Dean Transmission parts.... http://www.deantransmission.com/ in Mass or
I also use Portland Transmission in RI
I will go make the seal installer and take pix now.
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Here is how you make a simple lip seal installer.
All you need is some MIG wire and a piece of brake line.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/Sabaka454/k20050.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/Sabaka454/k20055.jpg)
Cut a piece of mig wire and loop it into the end of the pipe.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/Sabaka454/k20056.jpg)
Crush it in the vise.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/Sabaka454/k20057.jpg)
Make the other end smaller for tighter seals.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/Sabaka454/k20058.jpg)
Here is the piston compressor.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/Sabaka454/k20052.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/Sabaka454/k20053.jpg)
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So, wouldn't a higher stall converter be better later on down the road, especially with the trans-go shift kit? I thought the upgrade would be worth it in the long run.
As for the actual rebuild, hopefuley my friend will come through, and his dad will help me out. If not I will probably try it myself. How hard can it be right ? :-\
Im taking notes though so keep the suggestions and opinions coming.
Big thanks to the Capt and Vile for the extra help in breakin down all the tech talk. ;D
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Higher stall = worse fuel economy. You can launch better in racing applications but if you are going for medium performance don't go too far over stock if you want to still daily drive it. I have a high stall converter in my GMC and while it's awesome I'm lucky if I put 200 miles a year on it.
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oh this wont be a daily driver, but might want to make a 50 mile trip here and there. guess I will stay around the 2000 rpm range.
Also, is there any info that is out there on how to replace the rear seal?
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okay, it's been a while but, I got some crappy news. My friend's dad bailed out and wont do the rebuild. He says that R4s are crappy trans. and that he wouldn't feel good doing the rebuild because he can guarantee that I will have problems with it. And since we are 400mls away he doesn't want that to happen.
so, back to the drawing board.
What are my other options as far as other trannies to put in my 87. I thought the R4 is the only thing that will go since I have overdrive and lockup.
any suggestions would be cool.
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look around locally for someone to rebuild the 700R4. They acquired a nasty reputation from 1982 - 1986 because, well they were not reliable. By 1988 all of the upgrades were there. They are good transmissions, and if you want overdrive you only have one other option, and that is a 200R4. They came behind 305's in the G-bodies (cutlass, Monte Carlo, Regal) They can be built to handle a good amount of power also.
You can put any transmission in the truck; TH350, TH400, 700R4, 200R4, but if you want overdrive for mileage, you need either of the last 2. Since it already had a 700R4 in it, I would get one of those and it would require no modifications to the truck.
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Find someone who has confidence in their abilities. Any decent trans tech has gone through several 700R4's.
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Why would you need to replace the sprag unless it failed? I've only had one 700R4 sprag fail and it was because it broke along with the case. One should be a one way overrunning roller clutch. One is a sprag. I wouldn't go replacing them unless they are bad.
You may need to during the overhaul purchase different thickness apply plates if you find that the clutch pack clearances are out of specs.
You should buy the servo kit which allows you to convert your servo to the corvette style servo.
You should purchase a master overhaul kit
You will need a new intermediate band
Also buy a valve body improver or shift kit.
You may also want to buy a pump and vane kit along with a new torque converter.
Carefully check the condition of the sunshell near the annulus gear if it looks blue, cracked or shady in any way replace it.
My advice is to find a more experienced builder. Look for an ATRA certified builder.
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http://www.atra.com/
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he said that it probably needs to be changed. seeing how it's comin up on 300K mls. im just gonna have to trust him on all the parts inspections. he did say that the sun shell might be on the list of things to replace. I can put the servo on myself right? Even after the trans goes back on the truck? I think he did mention the intermediate band. Is the master rebuild kit from TCI better than the one in the link I showed you? Also, the one I showed you comes with a shift kit. the master overhaul kit looks like it doesnt have as much stuff. Like maybe those are for trannys that are in better shape than mine. [?] yes? no?
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It doesn't matter if the sprag has a million miles on it. If it's still good it's still good. Nobody in their right mind would order hard parts that are non returnable until the unit is apart and are sure of what needs to be replaced otherwise you are throwing $ down the drain.
The servo has to come out in order to rebuild the transmission so I don't understand why you would want to upgrade it later.
A master overhaul kit should come with frictions, steels, seals, and gaskets. That's it.
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Okay, been a while but, I decided a while back to just save up for a new tranny. It's lame and costly but it's safe and sound. Almost got enough money saved. Any suggestions which one to get. (700R4)
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I dont know if you have a Bone yard / used parts joint around you ? I'm asking cause near me (CT) I have a few. I have priced out in the past and had good luck too.
I have seen a 350 or 400 go for a couple hundred. They come with either a 6 month or 12 month, depends on the condition when they inspect it and what it has for miles.
If they had a th400 with 30,000 it would be a few bucks more than the one with 60,000.
Just a thought..... I save tons of $$ at the place near me !
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Yeah, I have looked into a few local shops, but, I'm just paranoid about that. I found a couple at Jegs.com
One is from TCI and the other is from PAR. Any news on either of those companies?
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Not sure about PAR
TCI, awesome ! Ihad a 68 Camaro small block engine, about 400 hp and had a TCI 350 tranny . Took an ass whoopin and never failed. Actually sold the car and the tranny kept goin and goin. If I had the cash to buy another Ide have one!
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Cool, thanks for the opinion. I hear alot of good things about TCI. They got one on jegs for about $1300 delivered. Should be fun once I get it. The wife just informed me that we were invited to spend turkey day with her family in NJ (woo-hoo). So there goes some of my transmission money. >:( >:( >:( >:(
But, I will get it soon.
Maybe I should post a write up of the removal and install.
What do ya'll think??
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The tranny is bullet proof. You could kill it but you would need a ton of power behind it and have to try to break it. Ya, post pictures. Its gunna be so pretty when you get it that your not gunna want to put it in or get it dirty!
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what about bowtie overdrives.
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not familiar with them...
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http://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/catalog/catalog_inc/viewitem.php?ITEMID=8
check it out. it seems like they dress theirs up a little better, and the price is a little cheaper. usualy that doesn't match up. :-\
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They look pretty sweet, I havet really seen too many though. AnotherTCI story = My brother in law has a 93 mustang lx, 5.0 partial tubbed rear, caged and blown pusing about 550 horse. (believe it or not everything in the block is still motorcraft, I cant figure out how its made it this far....) Its not a street car, Track only, It spends a lot of time on his trailer.... But, he runs 9.50's all day long at the track, he has hit 9 flat a few times. He has a TCI tranny right off the shelf. Only mod is a 2300 rpm stall. (and the stall speed / Tork cov. is TCI as well) He BEATS the shoot ot of that thing. Thats what its made for.
The car spends 90% of its driving life, throttle wide open, right to the floor.
So, I guess its all a matter of opinion. BTOD's probably make a great trany, If I had unlimited funds and it was tranny time for me I would go TCI.
Thats not to say if I neeed one and didnt have too much $$ I wouldnt get a rebuild or go use, cause I would.
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You should look into customer service and warranty policy. Even if you don't have much HP, you could still break the trans. I haven't dealt with TCI myself, but I've heard that they don't work with you much when it comes to warranty. When something does go wrong, you want those guys to be there to help you out, not place the blame on you and make you pay for more stuff. The place I bought my trans from has paid for installations/removals, paid rental car fees, and shipping for his customers(whatever it took to make things right when there was a problem). He paid for a modification(new gear selector) to my trans since I couldn't just send it back to him at the moment. That's something to think about when choosing a builder. The place I bought from shutdown, but there customer service was good until the owner became ill. A lot of the NBS and F-body guys like FLT for their 4l60e transmission....maybe they could build you a 700R4. I hope that helps. Good luck.
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I know of several people that have use bowtie and had no problems.
I have heard and my brother has experienced problems with TCI on breakage, but I know people that have had great luck with them.
He is currently using FLT, he has broke it 3 times, the last one he didn't race or abuse it and it broke the main shaft while daily driving it. They fixed it, but he still had to pay for stuff. He really needs a 4L80E.
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3 times is a lot. FLT should've gone out of their way to make things right with him after the 1st failure. They should've offered to upgrade him to a 4L80e for a good deal after the 3rd failure.
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The first time was the Turbos fault and about 20lbs of boost and 600ft/lbs, second time I say it was FLT's, they disagreed. 3rd time WAS FLT's, apparently the shaft was flawed, they fixed it and replaced the converter which it trashed also.
He was going through a divorce the 3rd time and the 4L80E wasn't in the budget.
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I think FLT should have made it within his budget since he went through so much trouble with their product. They make high claims about what their trans can handle - from what I see in other forums.
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I totally agree, but he isn't as agressive as I am, and he had other stuff going on I guess.
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I'm not aggressive either...I'm still waiting on $400 from a trans builder - I sent him my core, but he hasn't sent my deposit back. And it's been over a year. My wife thinks I should just show up and kick his ass until I feel better, but I don't want any problems, I just want my money back.
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A YEAR! I would go get my money after a week! I am tight when it comes to my money!