73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Engine/Drivetrain => Topic started by: Mike81K10 on February 14, 2024, 03:53:42 PM
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I am building a new engine. I disassembled my engine and took my Block, Rods, and pistons into a shop to be cleaned and inspected. Afterwards, I will get my new cast steel crank, rods, and pistons balanced at another shop.
Should I buy new heads or keep my OEM?
My heads are OEM (882), low miles on a rebuild 194 intake. I am thinking about buying a new set of cast steel heads with an intake valve of 2.020; exhaust valve 1.600. If I do go with the new heads, would it make much of a difference in HP and Torque. Summit Racing™ Cast Iron Cylinder Heads for Small Chevy; Cylinder Head, Cast Iron, Assembled, 72cc Chamber, 165cc Intake Runner, Chevy, 302, 327, 350, 400.
The cam I plan to use is: COMP Cams Xtreme Energy 4x4 Cam and Lifter Kits CL12-235-2; Cam and Lifters, Hydraulic Flat Tappet, Advertised Duration 254/262, Lift .447/.462. Details of cam below.
Basic Operating RPM Range:
1,000-5,200
Camshaft Use:
Street/Strip
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift:
210
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift:
218
Duration at 050 inch Lift:
210 int./218 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration:
254
Advertised Exhaust Duration:
262
Advertised Duration:
254 int./262 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:
0.447 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:
0.462 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:
0.447 int./0.462 exh.
Lobe Separation (degrees):
111
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Drop those 882 heads in the ocean. All of your power is lost in those boat anchors. Spend the money and be happy. Also that cam is not a big power maker either, you may want to consider something with a little more bite.
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882 heads are 76cc Chamber, 151cc intake vs the Summit 72cc Chamber, 165cc Intake Runner. with the SAME pistons, compression will go up slightly and intake volume will increase, different pistons, different story.
With a cam targeting 5200rpm, IMO it would be a waste of money, not because they are bad or the cam is bad but because it appears that you are targeting low end power.
With that said what is your intended purpose of the build? How are you expecting it to run/sound? What is the trucks intended purpose?
what kind of pistons are you getting? What is your target compression ratio? what intake? What trans? what gearing? This needs to put together as a complete package IMO.
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I have .40 over flat top TRW 10-1 compression pistons. I was planning to continue using my Qjet Rochester Carb that is new. I have not bought the heads yet, would a set of aluminum heads be better? I have OEM rods that I planned to get balanced with my new crank if they check out good.
I want a dependable driver with better HP and Torque with a better response. Would like to be able to carry loads and tow/pull when needed.
I once build a 350 for a MonteCarlo (car was stolen and never found) I owned and is had a little thump to it. A racing engine shop in Florida did all my machine work and helped me with it. Cannot recall the cam I used but the car was very fast and had awesome response and I had a 750 Double pumper on it. They machine shop also did custom head work, port, polish, bored the heads to 2.020 intake, worked the valve seats, 3 angle valve work, heavy springs, and etc. Pic of my 77 Monte Carlo is attached and my formerly owned 76 Bronco (I wish I had kept).
For my truck, it does not have to be as radical at my MonteCarlo was.
I plan to buy a set of:
1) Hedman 304 Stainless Steel Headers 62093 - Headers, Long Tube, 304 Stainless Steel, Black Ceramic Coated, Chevy, GMC, Pair
2) COMP Cams Magnum Roller Tip Rocker Arms 1412-16 - Rocker Arms, Stud Mount, Roller Tip, Chromoly Steel, 1.52 Ratio, Fits 3/8 in. Stud, Chevy, Small Block, Set of 16 (for the Cast 2.020 Heads I planned to buy, unless I go with something else, like aluminum heads.
3) Also need to purchase new push rods
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My block and rods should be done by Wednesday of next week and then I need to get the rotating assembly balanced.
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TRW 10-1 compression pistons what chamber size/volume is this compression number based on, deck height, gasket etc.
Were the .040" pistons chosen for bore cleanup? Forged, cast, hypereutectic?
What Intake are you using? It should be in the idle-5500 range.
I am trying to stay general here....
Aluminum heads are said to gain you detonation tolerance on higher compression but with a cap of 5200 RPM you wont ever see it.
You also wont see massive hosrepower numbers as torque and horsepower numbers cross at 5250rpm and your cam range ends at 50rpm below that.
On heads, the bigger the intake volume the bigger the gain at high RPM, you wont see this with the cam you have and IMO 2.02 is overkill.
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The engine I am rebuilding was built in about 1989 for my K10 and pulled out of my truck with very low miles and replaced with a crate motor due to crankshaft bearing noise. The machine shop in CO did not do well on the crank. All I can remember is the pistons are TRW brand, .40 over, and flat top with four valve reliefs. It has been too long ago to remember much else about them. The machine shop had to bore my engine .40 because .30 would not get rid of a nick in one of the cylinder walls. There is about 1/8" gap at the top of the cylinder where the piston stops. Would imagine the pistons are cast, not forged, when I get them back from the shop that is cleaning and inspecting them with my rods and block I can get more info from them.
Do you have a cam recommendation for me to look at that might provide better performance than what I was thinking about. Might go with a different cam. I have yet to buy the cam and heads. I was not planning to get overboard with the cost because I would have bought a 383 stroker blueprint motor from summit if the cost got that high. I simply have the engine already and want it to have around 370 to 425 HP and good torque. I did buy a set of new head bolts, just did not feel like cleaning up the old ones.
My engine will go into my 81 K10, My Transmission CH465 (4 Speed – 117 mm) 1F 5 465452, Transfer case NP205, posi-traction rear end and I forgot my gear ratio, I believe it is 4.10 though - would be what my truck came with. Some time ago the rear end had to be completely rebuilt with new axles and some gears and I had the local chevy dealership do the work and make it posi-traction. Never had a problem with the rear end since.
I currently have an aluminum intake OEM on the engine sitting in my truck and have thought about finding a new one. So currently the intake is undecided as of yet and may buy a new one. I was thinking about the Edelbrock Performer EPS Intake Manifolds 2701 or some other one (undecided yet).
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This subject is way above my pay grade...
Having thought about the comments and desires; is a 383 with Vortec heads a viable combo?
Of course, valve diameter, cam lift, rollers, pistons, C/R, intake manifold can all be massaged to create the desired result, BUT..
Is the combo cited above a good starting point?
Asking for a friend... 8)
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You really should measure the deck height and add in the compressed head gasket thickness to select the appropriate sized combustion chamber but it sounds like 64CC heads will be fine based on what you've stated. Are you running a roller cam retrofit?
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OK, I was confused for a minute... So you have a previous motor that had issues and you are using parts from it. Reusing the pistons and block, buying new crank and rods.
Which Crate motor do you have? What is its power level? Is it under powered? I ask because that 4 speed is setup for HD work not speed.. Even if you had 500hp, it realistically only has 3 "good" gears, so it won't be winning any drag races. Dont get me wrong, I LOVE those transmissions. I am just trying to determine actual use. 370-425hp isn't going to happen with that cam, but it will probably give you good low end torque.
This for example is GM's 357/407 350 motor specs for comparison
Part Number: 19367080
Engine Type: Chevy Small-Block V-8
Displacement (cu. in.): 350
Bore x Stroke (in.): 4.000 x 3.480
Block (P/N 10105123): Cast iron with 4-bolt main caps
Crankshaft (P/N 10243070): Nodular Iron
Connecting Rods (P/N 10108688): Powdered metal
Pistons (P/N 88894280): Cast aluminum
Camshaft Type (P/N 12677151): Hydraulic roller
Camshaft Lift (in.): 0.473” intake / 0.473” exhaust
Camshaft Duration (@.050 in.): 215° intake / 223° exhaust
Cylinder Heads: Cast iron; as cast with 64-cc chambers
Valve Size (in): 1.940 intake / 1.500 exhaust
Compression Ratio: 9.0:1 nominal
Required Fuel: Premium pump
Maximum Recommended rpm: 5600
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The engine I am rebuilding is one I rebuilt some time ago and was pulled for crankshaft noise with probably less than 1,000 miles on it after it was rebuilt. Was told the crankshaft was OK by the Machine shop and they clean, machined the block .40 over and rebuilt the heads (1.94 - 882 heads). I pulled the engine and replaced it with a crate engine that now has some, what sounds like valve problems. I could repair it - but think I want to rebuild the engine I had pulled and has been in storage since about 1989 (the one I have been talking about). Pics has the serial and ID of the engine. The block is very clean and the cylinders still has the faint (light) cross hatch marks from when it was previously machined. I have it in a shop getting it cleaned because it set for so many years and I am replacing the cam bearings, although I never had a cam problem and the bearings will be damaged from cleaning it.
My crate engine (from Mexico) sitting in my truck is also a 350 4 bolt main (have not thought about rebuilding) with a 2 piece rear seal. Stock everything. Will use my new carburetor (Rochester QJet 4 Barrel). I actually have 2 like new carburetors. The intake on the crate motor came off my OEM engine that came with my truck. I am the second owner and bout the K10 when it was 4 or 5 years old from a dealership, where the original owner traded it for a new truck. It was a special ordered truck used with a slide in camper by the original owner in Colorado (where I bought it). The original engine was a 305 and I wanted a 350. I bought the 350 4 bolt main I am now working on again from a salvage yard. After the machine shop worked on the engine, I put it together and drove out of state in 2 days do to a move to Texas, had I more time I would have been more careful and caught the problem with the crank. The main bearings started making noise after about 500 to 600 miles. I pulled it at my destination and put in the crate engine because I got the completely new (not rebuilt) engine for $1,200. It does not have a lot of power (being stock) but was good. I did not have problems with it until recently after my rebuild, probably because it sat for years without being ran.
In the past I have used my truck for hauling a boat, hauling stuff in the bed, I sometimes use a bed cap as can be seen on my build page, and hunting. I may not do much hunting with it in the future (use something else) and I sold my boat.
I have enjoyed the 4x4 and in Colorado where I bought it I used it on some very tough trails, hauled firewood logs from the mountains, and took it on snow ski trips (some heavy snow roads and trails), but in Alabama now.
I have not thought about but will also check out running a roller cam retrofit as mentioned by VZ.
I am thinking about sending my new stock crankshaft I bought from summit back and buying a complete balanced rotating assembly so I wound have to worry about balancing what I have and perhaps aftermarket rods will be better. After all when buying everything seaport and paying for balancing it will not be much different on the cost. The rotating assembly I am thinking about is:
Eagle Street and Strip Rotating Assemblies B13005E040
(Of course I would not need the Automatic Flex plate and balancer - would have to talk with Summit about it)
I also have to find out if there in an internally balanced kit, This states it is externally balanced. This is just a start and if I find a better kit, will go with it. Then I need to purchase the cam, heads, and intake.
Brand: Eagle Specialty Products
Manufacturer's Part Number: B13005E040
Part Type: Engine Rotating Kits
Product Line: Eagle Street and Strip Rotating Assemblies
Summit Racing Part Number: ESP-B13005E040
UPC: 793348624211
Actual Engine Displacement: 6.3L/385
Rear Main Seal Style: 2-piece
Bore (in.): 4.040 in.
Bore (mm): 102.616mm
Engine Stroke (in.): 3.750 in.
Balanced: Yes
Piston Material: Hypereutectic aluminum
Piston Style: Flat top, with two valve reliefs
Harmonic Balancer Included: Yes
Flexplate Included: Yes
Flywheel Included: No
Pistons Included: Yes
Piston Head Volume (cc): +7.00cc
Wrist Pin Style: Floating
Piston Rings Included: Yes
Piston Ring Facing Material: Plasmamoly
Piston and Ring Oversize (in.): 0.040 in.
Crankshaft Included: Yes
Crankshaft Material: Cast steel
Engine Balance: External
Connecting Rods Included: Yes
Connecting Rod Length Center to Center (in.): 5.700 in.
Connecting Rod Material: Forged 5140 steel
Connecting Rod Beam Style: I-beam
Rod Bearings Included: Yes
Rod Bearing Undersize (in.): Stock
Rod Bearing Undersize (mm): Stock
Main Bearings Included: Yes
Main Bearing Undersize (in.): Stock
Main Bearing Undersize (mm): Stock
Cam Bearings Included: No
Gaskets Included: No
Oil Pump Included: No
Camshaft Included: No
Lifters Included: No
Timing Chain and Gears Included:No
Plastigage Included: No
Assembly Lubricant Included: No
Quantity: Sold as a kit.
Notes: Kit includes a 168-tooth flexplate for an automatic transmissions and new balancer.
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My truck use to be blue (OEM Color), so I painted the engine blue. Now my truck is red and the engine will be red and black.
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I just pulled the trigger and asked for a return label for my crankshaft, Rod bearings, and Main bearings. I bought an internally balanced kit instead. Now I will not have to worry about getting it balanced. Now will have to worry about the cam, heads, and intake.
The rotating assembly I ordered is:
Eagle Street and Strip Rotating Assemblies B15402E040
Brand:
Eagle Specialty Products
Manufacturer's Part Number:
B15402E040
Part Type:
Engine Rotating Kits
Product Line:
Eagle Street and Strip Rotating Assemblies
Summit Racing Part Number:
ESP-B15402E040
UPC:
793348805450
Actual Engine Displacement:
5.8L/357
Rear Main Seal Style:
2-piece
Bore (in.):
4.040 in.
Bore (mm):
102.616mm
Engine Stroke (in.):
3.480 in.
Balanced:
Yes
Piston Material:
Cast aluminum
Piston Style:
Flat top, with four valve reliefs
Harmonic Balancer Included:
No
Flexplate Included:
No
Flywheel Included:
No
Pistons Included:
Yes
Piston Head Volume (cc):
+7.00cc
Wrist Pin Style:
Press-fit
Piston Rings Included:
Yes
Piston Ring Facing Material:
Plasmamoly
Piston and Ring Oversize (in.):
0.040 in.
Crankshaft Included:
Yes
Crankshaft Material:
Cast steel
Engine Balance:
Internal
Connecting Rods Included:
Yes
Connecting Rod Length Center to Center (in.):
5.700 in.
Connecting Rod Material:
Forged 5140 steel
Connecting Rod Beam Style:
I-beam
Rod Bearings Included:
Yes
Rod Bearing Undersize (in.):
Stock
Rod Bearing Undersize (mm):
Stock
Main Bearings Included:
Yes
Main Bearing Undersize (in.):
Stock
Main Bearing Undersize (mm):
Stock
Cam Bearings Included:
No
Gaskets Included:
No
Oil Pump Included:
No
Camshaft Included:
No
Lifters Included:
No
Timing Chain and Gears Included:
No
Plastigage Included:
No
Assembly Lubricant Included:
No
Quantity:
Sold as a kit.
Notes:
Internally balanced requires neutral flexplate and balancer purchased separately. Suitable for use up to 500 horsepower.
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I am looking at my choices and one choice in addition the Cast Iron Summit heads are a set of Dart SHP Special High Performance Cylinder Heads 126121. They have a choice between:
Concerning heads, which is best (flat Tappet cam setup). A choice between 64cc or 72cc combustion chambers—and 180cc or 200cc intake runner ports.
PS: Also saw: Brodix Cylinder Heads IK 180 Cylinder Heads for Small Block Chevy 1021004
Combustion Chamber Volume (cc): 64; Intake Runner Volume (cc): 180cc
I know a bit about but am not very in depth knowledgable about heads.
I just received my rotating assembly, that was fast, only took one day. I will take measurements and inspect everything, if not satisfied I will return it for something else. Have not look it over yet.
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How about some aluminum heads instead?
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Was thinking about it as well. Have looked at:
Dart SHP Special High Performance Cylinder Heads 126221
Dart SHP Special High Performance Cylinder Heads 126121
Edelbrock E-Street Cylinder Heads 5089
Any suggestions!
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I was leaning towards the Dart heads. I see many comments about the quality issues of the Edelbrock E-Street Cylinder Heads 5089 and better reviews of the Dart. They give a choice between a Combustion Chamber Volume (cc): 64 or 72. I was looking at the 64 with an Intake Runner Volume (cc): 180cc; and a Exhaust Runner Volume (cc): 70cc. Would the 72 Chamber Volume be a better choice?
PS:
I read there are better heads a a lower cost than the Dart and am still looking. I have never bought a set of aluminum heads before. I saw good reviews of the AFR 195cc SBC Enforcer Cylinder Heads 1001, however it is for a roller cam and I want a flat tappet. However, the number of head choices can be confusing. Might be why I have stuck with cast iron!
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So heads aren't specific to the type of cam you are running, only the springs and when you buy the new cam kit it will have new springs to match.
If I am going this deep in I would get aluminum heads. AFR, Dart, Summit branded, Jegs branded.
Again picking heads goes back to the original question and depends on target compression, and Valvetrain range.
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If it means anything, big +1 for AFR heads, more so if they've been ported by Tony Mamo (though not very useful without a fair amount of cam/compression)
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There are two cams I am leaning to and was wondering if the idle will be rough or real choppy, I am not interested in a really rough idle. Slightly or a little I am OK with. I am just concerned with HP and Torque and good RPM for Hwy driving, towing, and pulling. I am looking at AFR heads and a few others but figure it best to figure out the cam so I can match up the heads. I am also thinking about buying the Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake Manifolds 7101, does anyone have feedback on it?
Although I am leaning towards these two, I am still looking. What kind or part number rocker arms would you need with these and pushrod suggestions if I were to buy a set of AFR aluminum heads.
COMP Cams 'Xtreme 4x4' Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft - Part Number: 249-CL12-239-3:
Specifications:
Part Type - Camshaft and Lifter Kit
Product Line - Comp Cams 'Xtreme 4x4' Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshafts
Advertised Duration - 262 int./270 exh.
Advertised Exhaust Duration - 270
Advertised Intake Duration - 262
Assembly Lubricant Included - Yes
Basic Operating RPM Range - 1,300-5,600
Cam Style - Hydraulic flat tappet
Computer-Controlled Compatible - No
Duration at 050 inch Lift - 218 int./226 exh.
Engine Make/Size - Chevy Small Block (262-400)
Exh. Duration @ .050 in. (Deg) - 226
Exh. Duration Advertised (Deg) - 270
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift - 226
Exhaust Valve Lift - 0.48 in (12.192 mm)
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio - 0.48
Gaskets Included - No
Grind Number - CS X4 262H-11
Int. Duration @ .050 in. (Deg) - 218
Int. Duration Advertised (Deg) - 262
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift - 218
Intake Valve Lift - 0.462 in (11.735 mm)
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio i - 0.462
Lifter Style - Hydraulic flat tappet
Lifter Type - Hydraulic Flat Tappet
Lifters Included - Yes
Lobe Separation (Deg) - 111
Locks Included - No
Package Depth - 25.40
Package Height - 5.50
Package Width - 3.30
Part Category - Performance Parts
Pushrods Included - No
Quantity - Sold as a kit
RPM Range - 1300-5600
Retainers Included - No
Rocker Arms Included - No
Shipping Weight - 13.25
Timing Chain and Gears Included - No
Usage - Street/Performance
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio - 0.462 int./0.480 exh.
Valve Springs Included - No
Valve Springs Required - Yes
Valve Stem Seals Included - No
Vendor Part Number - CL12-239-3
COMP Cams 'Xtreme 4x4' Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft for Small Block Chevys - Part Number: 249-CL12-243-3
Specifications:
Part Type - Camshaft and Lifter Kit
Product Line - Comp Cams 'Xtreme 4x4' Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshafts
Advertised Duration - 270 int./278 exh.
Advertised Exhaust Duration - 278
Advertised Intake Duration - 270
Assembly Lubricant Included - Yes
Basic Operating RPM Range - 1,800-6,000
Cam Style - Hydraulic flat tappet
Computer-Controlled Compatible - No
Duration at 050 inch Lift - 226 int./234 exh.
Engine Make/Size - Chevy Small Block (262-400)
Exh. Duration @ .050 in. (Deg) - 234
Exh. Duration Advertised (Deg) - 278
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift - 234
Exhaust Valve Lift - 0.498 in (12.649 mm)
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio - 0.498
Gaskets Included - No
Grind Number - CS X4 270H-11
Int. Duration @ .050 in. (Deg) - 226
Int. Duration Advertised (Deg) - 270
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift - 226
Intake Valve Lift - 0.48 in (12.192 mm)
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio (i - 0.48
Lifter Style - Hydraulic flat tappet
Lifter Type - Hydraulic Flat Tappet
Lifters Included - Yes
Lobe Separation (Deg) - 111
Locks Included - No
Package Depth - 3.00
Package Height - 5.50
Package Width - 5.50
Part Category - Performance Parts
Part Fitment - Semi Universal
Pushrods Included - No
Quantity - Sold as a kit
RPM Range - 1800-6000
Retainers Included - No
Rocker Arms Included - No
Shipping Weight - 13.30
Timing Chain and Gears Included - No
Usage - Street/Performance
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio - 0.480 int./0.498 exh.
Valve Springs Included - No
Valve Springs Required - Yes
Valve Stem Seals Included - No
Vendor Part Number - CL12-243-3
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I'm partial to the Crower/Norris design rocker arm, and you could run a 1.6 ratio to sneak a bit more lift. As far as pushrods, CompCams units are fine, you shouldn't have a ton of valve spring pressure with either cam choice anyway.
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Well, I just made a custom order for a set of AFR 195cc SBC Enforcer Cylinder Heads 1001 to be matched with Hyd Flat Tappet springs for a COMP Cams 'Xtreme 4x4' Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft for Small Block Chevys - Part Number: 249-CL12-243-3 (specs was the last one I provided). AFR said, the head build request will go in right away and should be built by Friday, then mailed out. I will decide on an intake and rockers over the next few days.
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We used to call them "Air-Search and Re-flow"... ;D
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Does anyone here use a cam degree kit to degree their camshaft? I have never done it before. However, I am thinking about trying to do it this time around.
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I've got one around here
but I CAN seem to find it... 8)
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Depending on the type of build in the past I have used a degree wheel, but I haven't touched a BBC (nor SBC) internally for the past 20 years.
Modern cams are typically a tighter tolerance than before, If I were building just a driver I would probably just throw it in there and be done.
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Dial in your timing marks with the piston at TDC and check the cam using a degree wheel. Don't put your trust in today's products being manufactured right. More often than not, they are pretty well spot on but why not check it? I ordered a replacement 350 crank and mic'd it up. It was .200" under spec. Clearly the guy who machined it was eating a ham sandwich and looking at his phone when he sent it.
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What should the cylinder measurements be for a 350 bored 30, 40, 60 over? I am doing checks on my engine block because the former machine shop did nor appear to have been very dependable. My bore is currently 4 1/32" / 4.03125 on all cylinders and appears to be consistent throughout. I doing all the measurements to ensure it is right. I will go with another block if needed.
My old pistons that was in this engine had close tolerances they are 4 1/64" / 4.015625.
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They should bore the engine with your new pistons on hand. Did they have them when they did the machining?
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I don't recall! It was too many years ago. How much difference should there be between the piston and the cylinder bore? If you have a balanced rotating assembly and change the pistons with new ones, does that throw off the balance?
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Pistons aren't rotating assembly, they are reciprocating assembly. They are typically balanced once hung on the rods.
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Thanks VZ! I still have work to be done on my block or go with another.
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I discovered my old block that came out of storage, bored 4.040 has a damaged cylinder. Of course I discovered that after I had it cleaned by a shop. Cannot say if I missed it or they did it. I returned my Eagle balanced rotating assembly (would go with scat next time - forged) to summit for a refund along with some other parts, until I decide what I need now. So I started pulling apart my engine in my truck and will rebuild it or choose another.
I did a compression test on the engine in my truck prior to taking it apart and found number 7 was missing compression. I pulled most of the engine apart in preparation to pull and inspect it to help me decide on a new short block or rebuild the one in my truck. It has been awhile since I had messed with my engine and I should have gone through it prior to putting my truck back together. However, it had been running fine and the last time it was worked on in a mechanic shop about 3 years ago. I rarely let anyone work on my truck, never seem to have much luck when others are relied upon. I found a bent pushrod to my number 7 intake valve and the rocker was cocked sideways.
I have the new AFR 195cc enforcer heads 1001 and Scorpion 1.6 3/8" lifters, new tall valve covers, and some other parts to include the fel-pro gasket kit.
I am not sure what it will cost me to get my engine in my truck bored to 4.030" and when I think about the cost of a rotator assembly and other parts. I have looked at three different short blocks in addition to the engine in my truck; BluePrint Engines GM 383 C.I.D. Stroker Short Block Plus Engines BP38321SP, Skip White Performance - SBC CHEVY 383 SHORT BLOCK KIT FORGED -24cc DISH 4.030 PISTONS SCAT CRANK & RODS, and the new Dart SHP Blocks.
Does anyone know anything about the Blueprint engines? Are there engines in the forum store? Will also have to check it out.
PS: I will us a hyd Flat Tappet if I stay with the engine in my truck (previous choice) and a roller cam with anything else I do. I am adding some pics and I poured some concrete a couple of days ago so I can use my cherry picker to do the engine pull. The concrete will be close to my back gate allowing me load into my truck bed if needed.
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Looks pretty clean, no sludge :)
What would it cost to sleeve the bad cylinder?
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Now is ideal to check cylinder #7 using a leak-down tester if you have access to one.
I'm curious about your reasoning for using a flat tappet camshaft in this engine versus a roller camshaft "with anything else [you] do?"
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I always took very good care of the engine since it was new. Oil has always been changed every 3000 or less and the engine actually has less than 70,000 miles on it.
The engine in the pics was going to be replaced by one I had in storage that was previously built (about 35 years ago) and bored .040 over, (call it engine 1). I thought it was a good engine block that only needed a rotator assembly and otherwise little else needed, but found the bad cylinder (cylinder wall crack found) and thought about going to a true roller block if I don't use the engine in my truck (call it engine 2 - both pre 86 blocks) that has the bent pushrod you see in the picks.
In addition to the bent pushrod (Engine 2 - never been bored and it was a GM Goodwrench replacement engine installed about 25-30 yrs ago), a couple of my other cylinders had 90 to 100 compression and the others 120 to 145 compression. So there is not very good compression consistency amount the cylinders. I did do a leak down and only cylinder 7 as is leaking down. The #7 intake valve was found the culprit and it is the valve not seating or perhaps the seal, almost not holding air. I have not pulled off the heads yet, about all that is left on the top to do.
On engine 1, I was planning to go Hyd Flat Tappet in the beginning (not a stroker) with a COMP Cams Xtreme Energy 4x4 Cam and Lifter Kits CL12-243-3 - Duration 270/278, Lift .480/.498 as it would provide good power and torque with my heads AFR 195cc Enforcer 1001 with Scorpion Rockers) and the intake I planed to use - AFR Eliminator Series Intake Manifolds 4812. If I use my engine in my truck (#2) and just get it bored to 4.030 or 4.040, I might still go with my original plan with the hyd Flat Tappet cam.
However, If engine #2 (in my truck) is too much trouble or cannot be used, I will go to a roller cam (appears to be much more expensive) I was thinking about buying a built short block or a short block kit if I go this route. It would end up being a 383 stroker engine with a true roller cam engine block or a Dart engine block and might go forged internals.
I hope this was not confusing. I tried to clarify. Guess I have been thinking about the stroker or a 406 engine and just hesitant on spending the money. Also I have to think about what engine will work with my transmission and flywheel (the rest of my drive line). My drive train may limit my HP and torque.
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Dude, when you start talking about engines being stored for that many years-
I'm feeling old... ;)
GLWTE whatever it morphs into!
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The #7 intake valve may have kissed the piston either from over-revving or due to a weak/broken spring. Inspect carefully.
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Does anyone know anything about the Blueprint engines? Are there engines in the forum store? Will also have to check it out.
We (73-87chevytrucks.com) doesn't sell engines. But Blueprint is pretty reputable from what I hear. I have not used them personally.
Personally IF I were looking for an SBC replacement, I would look into the later model engines with the roller provisions and one piece mains, so 1987 - up blocks.
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Thank you for your advice Capt
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I went ahead and ordered a SBC Short Block. My wife is upset at the money I am spending, guess she will get over it. I will be using my 195cc AFR heads I purchased and need to change the springs for this engine. I also ordered an Edelbrock Performer RPM Air-Gap Intake Manifolds 7501 and a new flywheel for this engine.
Manufacturer's Part Number:
BP38321SP
Part Type:
Short Block Engines
Product Line:
BluePrint Engines GM 383 C.I.D. Stroker Short Block Plus Engines
Summit Racing Part Number:
MLL-BP38321SP
UPC:
816671020564
Crate Engine Family:
Chevy Small Block
Actual Engine Displacement:
6.2L/377
Rear Main Seal Style:
1-piece
Crankshaft Material:
Forged steel
Piston Material:
Forged aluminum
Short Block Piston Style:
Dish
Connecting Rod Material:
Forged 4340 steel
Connecting Rod Beam Style:
I-beam
Engine Block Material:
Cast iron
Main Bolt Style:
4-bolt
Main Journal Type:
Chevy 350
Deck Height (in.):
9.025 in.
Engine Balance:
Internal/External
Oil Pan Included:
Yes
Timing Cover Included:
Yes
Harmonic Balancer Included:
Yes
Flexplate Included:
No
Flywheel Included:
No
Assembled:
Yes
Remanufactured:
No
Quantity:
Sold individually.
Notes:
Pistons have a +18cc dish and Hastings moly rings. Includes a high volume oil pump and a hydraulic roller camshaft. Camshaft specifications @0.050: 0.495 in. intake/ 0.502 in exhaust, 220 degree intake/ 224 degree exhaust. Lobe separation is 114 degrees. Internally balanced (neutral) front 8'' harmonic balancer and late-style 1986-up style 350 flexplate required.
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My wife is upset at the money I am spending
Angry wife will give you motivation to keep spending money and time with your true love ;D
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She'll be much happier once you light that rubber up, and get some tire smoke in her hair.....then buy new tires....lather, rinse, repeat.
;D
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Think she might be coming around. It appears my clutch is in excellent condition, thought I was going to buy a new one. The one I have is lightly used, low hours/miles. I did buy new engine mounts at the local NAPA, was going to buy aftermarket energy or similar ones but don't have time right now with shipping etc. Maybe next time!
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Honestly, I think you'll be happier with new rubber clam shell mounts than the aftermarket urethane.
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Well, will start putting my new engine together soon. Has anyone ran the Rochester Carburetor on a performance 383 stroker? Just wondering if I need a 750 as is recommended. Also was wondering if I need or should get an aluminum water pump. I have a cast iron one that is not all that old and it was a performance pump (higher volume) than normal.
Here is a few pics! I have to figure out what size push rods I need and am waiting on some ARP bolts to come in.
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Cast iron performance pump would be fine IMHO, probably better-no chance of galling, just added weight.
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I like the pics. Very clean
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Too bad everything is so dirty and needs cleaning! Sheesh!!! ;)
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Painted my engine red today. I prefer red to try and match up to my truck.
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I am looking at putting in an aluminum Edelbrock 8811 Water Pump in place of the cast steel brick I had on my old engine. Perhaps tomorrow will get one! Took some engine pics after painting it red.
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Looks awesome Mike! 8)
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Does the torque values change when bolting down aluminum parts like heads, water pump, and other parts from the suggestions in maintenance manuals?
I used to use RTV on bolts going into water jacket holes, such as the water pump and some head bolts, that may not have been the best practice. What is the best sealant to use, gasket sealer or something else?
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I don't recommend the Edelbrock aluminum water pumps. They are a great idea but have a propensity to leak past the shaft seal with a few hours of use. Have you looked through How to Seal Threaded Connections and Fasteners (http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?topic=35601.msg300976#msg300976)?
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Thanks bd, that is well written and it did not occur to me to look at the technical info on the forum for that information. You did very well and I appreciate your assistance and will use what I read. Unfortunately, I already bought a water Edelbrock Water pump. What brands do you recommend?
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IMHO, although the aluminum pumps look really cool, they don't perform any better than ferrous pumps for street applications. I've been happy with the Milodon high-flow iron pump on my SBC. In reality, as long as the radiator has unobstructed air and coolant flows, even a factory pump should circulate the coolant just fine.
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Thanks for the info!
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Water pump starts leaking and now what? You wait a week for another mail order turd to show up or you run down the street and exchange your lifetime warranty pump? Some things are better to buy local especially wear items. As bd said, there's no benefit other than a little weight. Never use RTV as thread sealant. Permatex PTFE works for most applications.
Thanks bd, that is well written
Amen
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Appreciate the info. I bought the water pump at the local O'Reilly Auto Parts. However, I went to pick it up today and the Water Pump was a disappointment, it was dirty and looks like it was a return. I got a refund on the pump!
I also bought a variety of Permatex PTFE sealants. Got good info on the different types and uses from the thread bd produced. For years I have not been paying close enough attention in that area as I should have.
PS: I just ordered a Milodon Mechanical Water Pumps 16212 (it is a high volume pump). I could not find any HV pumps - only stock pumps at local parts houses. I ordered it from Summit Racing. In fact, I looked into the local parts houses for Milodon and any HV Long Water Pump and found neither available.
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I just noticed the Milodon Water Pump uses GMB castings and some local parts places has their own brand of pumps with GMB castings. Still, the Milodon I ordered states it is a HV pump and I could not find any local pumps that were HV pumps.
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I think the only thing that makes them high volume is a different impeller. Castings would remain the same.
Edit: Removed comments and link for electrical cut-off switch and put it into the correct thread.
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The stock water pump circulating the coolant is what you need. Let the cooling system do its job as designed. Until the thermostat opens you are circulating it through the bypass circuit. If you wanted to increase cooling capacity use the big block radiator. What would you gain with (high volume) ?
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Thanks VZ! Mr. Diesel, I think you are correct in that the only difference is the HV has a slightly larger or different impeller in it.
I am beginning to think I should have bought a complete engine fully dressed with all accessories. It would have been about the same price or perhaps less expensive. Buying a short block and completing it really costs.
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With the quality of things these days you're better off. Plus you can say built, not bought.
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Your Thermostat isn't going to open up any further...
Unless they make a HV unit ::)
Be my luck that someone does...
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I bought a:
Stant Superstat ® Premium Thermostat , 180 Degree
The description of the thermostat says:
Premium Superstat thermostat.
Uses high venturi for maximum cooling capacity during high temperature, high load oepration.
25% larger piston in diameter that delivers 1 1/2 the power of standard thermostats.
Stanless steel flange is burnished to a bright finish for stress relief and added corrosion resistance.
Thicker flange.
Fit type: Vehicle Specific
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I bought a:
Stant Superstat ® Premium Thermostat , 180 Degree
The description of the thermostat says:
Premium Superstat thermostat.
Uses high venturi for maximum cooling capacity during high temperature, high load oepration.
25% larger piston in diameter that delivers 1 1/2 the power of standard thermostats.
Stanless steel flange is burnished to a bright finish for stress relief and added corrosion resistance.
Thicker flange.
Fit type: Vehicle Specific
Curious
Wiki: "In inviscid fluid dynamics, an incompressible fluid's velocity must increase as it passes through a constriction in accord with the principle of mass continuity, while its static pressure must decrease in accord with the principle of conservation of mechanical energy (Bernoulli's principle). Thus, any gain in kinetic energy a fluid may attain by its increased velocity through a constriction is balanced by a drop in pressure".
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I bought a:
Stant Superstat ® Premium Thermostat , 180 Degree
The description of the thermostat says:
Premium Superstat thermostat.
Uses high venturi for maximum cooling capacity during high temperature, high load oepration.
25% larger piston in diameter that delivers 1 1/2 the power of standard thermostats.
Stanless steel flange is burnished to a bright finish for stress relief and added corrosion resistance.
Thicker flange.
Fit type: Vehicle Specific
I bet your truck will do wheelies now... ;D
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Just hope with the water pump and thermostat, it wound over heat. My brother has 2 cars that will pull the front end off the ground. A 78 trans am race car and a 74 firebird daily driver.
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Worked on the engine some today. Installed the heads and wanted to get the pushrods measured for the proper length needed. Could not complete the pushrod measurement because my adjustable pushrod measuring tool appeared to be too long. The minimum length was the same as the OEM pushrod and I did not think it would be shorter.
I went ahead and put the intake manifold and valve covers on to see how they would look. I had to order new gaskets and they will not be in till Monday. The gaskets I had were not what the AFR Head manufacturer suggested. Still have to figure out my proper pushrod length and order the correct ones as well.
I removed my engine from the engine stand and put it on an engine cradle. Seems safer since all that weight is not being put on the back of the engine with four bolts for an extended time. Beside that, it is easier to move around and takes up less room. This is the first time I have ever used a cradle.
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4 bolts are fine as long as you aren't doing anything crazy. It's coming along!
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Looks good Mike! Do the valve covers clear the power brake booster?
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Don't know yet!
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Strange, Was looking at was the list price of my 81 K10 when new, it was $7,920.00. The engine I am building for it cost more than what the list price was for my truck when new.
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Yup, different times, but also extra possibilities, like a new block, not an over-bored veteran that needs a lot of machine work to make true.
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My pushrods measurements came up .600 shorter than the OEM I had in my crate engine. Don't know if it is partly because of 1.6 scorpion roller rockers, the heads, or the roller engine block. Everything is different then the old flat tappet GM Block. My old pushrods were 7.800.
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It's because you need the roller cam pushrods. Like a 1995 caprice 5.7L engine etc
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I have seen a few different methods for measuring push rod lengths. I will do my measurements again tomorrow to double check my pushrod length and the proper geometry of my rockers arms/lifters.
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Don't over think it. You need the pushrods I mentioned above.
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I checked out the 1995 Cprice 5.7L engine and the pushrods run just over 7.8 in length. I used a couple of methods now (last time today) to check for the correct pushrod lengths and both methods came up to a 7.200 pushrod length.
The last method I used to check the pushrod length was very easy and effective. I checked for the rocker geometry, which gives you the length of the pushrod. Seemed to be very accurate.
Rocker Geometry:
1) The Gross Valve Lift of Cam: .792 / 2 = .396
2) Thread Pitch on 3/8” studs = 24 TPI (.042” per turn)
3) Make 90 Degree Mark on rocker arm (Center bearing to Center roller)
4) Put a mark on top of adjuster nut so the number of turns can be counted
5) Put Rocker on the stud and measure with an Allen wrench from valve to stud the 90 degree line.
6) Figure to determine turns on adjuster nut: .396 /.042 = 9.43 (turns needed)
7) Put tape on top of adjuster nut and mark it to determine the number of turns.
Figures:
Intake Lift .495
Exhaust Lift .502
Rockers 1.6:1 (Full Roller - Scorpion Rockers)
.495 x 1.6 = .792 (Gross Lift)
.792 / 2 = .396 (Half of gross valve lift)
.396 / .042 = 9.43 (Turns needed on adjuster nut)
Afterwards: Insert and adjust pushrod checker, then removed rocker and pushrod checker. Measure pushrod checker.
Equation used to find Gross Valve Lift:
Intake Lobe Lift x Rocker Arm Ratio = Inches Gross Lift
I went ahead and ordered and the information on the pushrods from Summit Racing is below:
HDR Thickwall Chromoly Pushrods SUM-14957200
Compatible with Guideplates: Yes
Pushrod Tube Diameter: 5/16 in.
Pushrod Material: Chromoly
Top Tip Style: Ball
Bottom Tip Style: Ball
Intake Overall Length (in.): 7.200 in.
Exhaust Overall Length (in.): 7.200 in.
One-Piece Pushrod: Yes
Oiling: Yes
Tapered: No
Tip Attachment: Formed
Top Tip Diameter: 5/16 in.
Bottom Tip Diameter: 5/16 in.
Wall Thickness (in.): 0.105 in.
Heat-Treated: Yes
Quantity: Sold as a set of 16.
Notes: Commonly used with SBC O.E. hydraulic roller cams, .105 wall 210 degree ball ends.
Summit Racing™ HDR Thickwall Chromoly Pushrods
Summit Racing™ HDR premium thick-wall pushrods are a great upgrade for your engine. Factory pushrods (and even .080 wall aftermarket versions) act like a pogo stick in a running engine. Not only is static spring pressure working against them, it's also the valvetrain inertial mass increasing with RPM. This reduces power and valvetrain life. While a .080 thin-wall pushrod may not break, it doesn't mean it's the best option.
Enter the HDR's. Summit™ used FEA (Finite Element Analysis) in the initial testing. We didn't just compare them to thin-wall welded-ball factory pushrods, but with aftermarket models, as well. The results speak for themselves!
* The Summit™ HDR 5/16 x .105 wall pushrods have 20 percent less stress and 25 percent less deflection than a typical 5/16 x .080 chromoly pushrod
* The Summit™ HDR Pro LS 11/32 x .120 wall have 25 percent less stress and 28 percent less deflection than a typical 5/16 x .080 wall chromoly pushrod
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I checked out the 1995 Cprice 5.7L engine and the pushrods run just over 7.8 in length
That's not correct: MPR373
Overall Length (in): 7.195 Inch
Overall Length (mm): 183mm
Shaft Diameter (in): 5/16 Inch
Shaft Diameter (mm): 7.92mm
Top Tip Type: Ball
Bottom Tip Type: Ball
Top Tip Diameter (in): 0.312 Inch
Top Tip Diameter (mm): 8mm
Bottom Tip Diameter (in): 0.312 Inch
Bottom Tip Diameter (mm): 8mm
Wall Thickness (in): 0.060 Inch
Wall Thickness (mm): 1.524mm
Oversize (in): 0 Inch
Oversize (mm): 0mm
Material: Steel
Drilled: Yes
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Guess I must have looked at the wrong ones. Thanks!
AFR and Scorpion informed me that I have to use after market hardened 5/16", chromemolly, heat treated, thick walled push rods for my engine.
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Yes because you have guide plates.
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Thanks for clarifying why!
I have never used aluminum heads before nor guide plates. My prior engines were Gen I flat tappet cam engines with iron heads. I am learning some new things with this engine build that I did not know prior. My prior build was easier to deal with and this one is becoming much more expensive.
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Got my pushrods in last night and installed them this morning. Will soon put my engine in my truck! I could not find 5/16" push rods with a .125" wall, those I got are .105" wall. So they are thicker than normal for guide plates. Larger diameter rods have thicker wall options.
I have been keeping areas that access is not needed closed off to prevent dirt and anything falling in. Including the valley with valves and rods, covering removed for pic.
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Almost too pretty to cover up, eh? 8)
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Did not have much time to get a lot done today. However, I installed my intake and used Loctite 518 Anaerobic Gasket Maker 2096059 with the spray activator on the four corners were the gaskets meet. Usually use Permatex Silicone gasket maker and sealer on that. My valve cover gaskets is a little thick and will need to get some mounting hardware for them, cannot use the OEM I have.