73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Performance => Topic started by: jeremy.farlow on May 20, 2020, 03:44:51 PM
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I’m building an engine.
I have A LOT of money in it.
I’d like to do EVERYTHING possible to keep from grenading this expensive engine immediately.
I’m fully aware I could BUY a prelube setup... save I haven’t had an income since January. I’d rather not BUY anything I don’t have to right now.
I have this:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200520/d1d6836cbd6a99ae1a7e2f4acc76742c.jpg)
Pressure pot with fittings rated at double the pressure any Chevy oil pump generates.
And this:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200520/fa4177b00db95d50e7eed05c583a85e5.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200520/72d55162fcd5548b6e83c2f2c26730b9.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200520/f6440e346f92bd49a8975d862dd54ba4.jpg)
I’ve got this:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200520/7648b122713d4e3b66ad9282ee16e86c.jpg)
Concept is to shove oil, as of from the engine driven pump, though the pressurized side of one of these points:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200520/f344927dde88bb337e423fd0abfd215c.jpg)
Right???
Am I missing anything? Replicate the work being done by the engine BEFORE the engine has to do it? Shove oil into the nooks and crannies... fill the galleys, theoretically WATCH it happen by pulling the valve covers? Make a mess that way...
Is it just that simple, or am I missing some crucial element?
I’m thinking the nice thing using the pressure pot is I can drain the sump a number of times and KEEP shoving oil through the system. Spin the crank while I’m doing so. Make sure I have a totally oiled engine before I let her rip.
Is it just that simple, or am I missing something?
Jeremy
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I get your being cautious, it will probably fill some oil passages but most of it will bleed off.
If you have used assembly grease on all the vulnerable parts you should be fine.
Let us know how it goes, please. ;D
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I am not familiar with what you are trying to do. What are those two fittings for - engine oil cooler? Anyways, doesn't an oil pump primer (free loan-a-tool at most auto parts stores) do the same thing? Plenty of assembly lube, fuel in the carb and distributor in close to where it needs to be and I think you'll be fine.
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I am not familiar with what you are trying to do. What are those two fittings for - engine oil cooler? Anyways, doesn't an oil pump primer (free loan-a-tool at most auto parts stores) do the same thing? Plenty of assembly lube, fuel in the carb and distributor in close to where it needs to be and I think you'll be fine.
This is the correct tool for the job. You can even make one out of an old distributor and a drill.
You are being very cautious, that is great. Assuming you have taken every other precaution possible, you could fire up the engine without priming and it will have pressure right away. Even better would be an oil pump primer.
In my opinion your method is like going the really long way around instead of taking the direct route
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Both Comp Cams and Melling advise a pre-oiler as the absolute best way to assure lubrication. I’m fully aware I can pull the distributor and develop oil pressure. Comp says that’s the SECOND best method... after pressurized oil injection.
I’ve got better than $10k in this motor... I’m willing to take out every insurance policy I can.
Is it absolutely necessary? Maybe not, but I’m OUT of money and I’ve got 99% of what I need to make this thing. I may be missing a fitting here or there, but that’s easy to fix.
So yeah... I can use a drill to spin the oil pump... I could just wing and prayer it, fire the engine and HOPE for the best... I could also score the bearings immediately. I’d rather not do that.
Jeremy
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Yes... those are the oil cooler fittings. They’ll likely need blocked off.
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Fair enough. I wasnt trying to come across in a negative way.
I am curious about this so I hope you keep this going and post lots of pics and info
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I have built 6 engines that are a combination of SBC and BBC. Every single one I have used assembly lube and a oil pump pre-luber attached to a drill. Connect a oil pressure gauge and spin it up to pressure. I have never had a problem. I am sure your method will work just fine. As long as your engine fires right up and you are not excessively cranking it, there will be little in the way of wear for those few seconds before oil pressure builds.
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Jeremy, we all understand your concern and might proceed similarly with that extent of investment. Besides, judicious care is a rewarding aspect of any high-performance build. It's part of the journey. But consider this, if bearings score it will be from a block or oil pump that wasn't effectively clean, from debris that was introduced during assembly, or from bearings that were poorly fitted. All of the pre-lubing in the world won't compensate for any of those issues.
That stated, it sounds like you have a workable plan to dot every "i" and should proceed with that plan so that you can enjoy the satisfaction that it brings. Just be sure that your pre-lube setup is spotlessly clean and doesn't inadvertently introduce particle contamination. BTW - pre-lubing with the valve covers removed and the engine off shouldn't create a mess. 8)
How much oil pressure do you project for the engine once it's running?
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The pump I’m using is a Summit high volume pump. It’s basically a stock replacement item, but I’m not finding any specs for pressure. The bearing clearances are on the tighter side. My guess would be 60-70 psi cold, likely dropping 15 psi or so warm???
Jeremy
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Just curious, why a Summit HV rather than Melling or Moroso, and why high volume with tight bearings? Is it driven by a hardened ARP or equivalent shaft?
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I had great luck with the modified distributor on a drill method, but then again, I didn't have a $10k motor. I can see why you want to take every option available to protect your motor.
The 1 thing my machine shop told me to do once the motor built oil pressure (verified by the gauge and the valvetrain with the valve covers removed) was to rotate the motor by hand a few times then repeat the priming process.
I'm not sure what this accomplished or if it was necessary. Has anyone ever heard of this? Maybe BD can shed some light on this.
I'd love to hear the specs on your new motor.
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Tight bearings because I plan on running a lightweight synthetic oil and changing it frequently. Cheap high-volume pump for two reasons. First, ultimately I want a dry-sump motor. Second, it’s a truck, with stuff like the previously mentioned oil cooler and space... TONS of space... for a big, deep sump, I chose cheaper, matched parts, with the view of them as semi-temporary.
Even prior to the current unpleasantness I still had a budget as well. Just a much larger budget than I would allow myself currently. I think it’s like an 8-quart pan I’m using, with the high volume pump. The cooler will add at least another quart.
My theory, currently is LOTS of oil, cleaned efficiently, with a big sump to let particulate fall into. Ultimately I desire a tiny little sump, with an even bigger reservoir, pushing a lot of oil through the engine. Trying to use what mama GM gave us... LOTS of room... behind the cross-member and just in general... MORE oil means more oil to heat up and longer before the oil breaks down. Seemed pretty common sense at the time. Being that the current unpleasantness is gonna set back later stages... maybe it’s another hindsight moment... but I think I’m okay. The Summit setup is by no means “SEXY”... but I think it should work fine. I did spring for the ARP driveshaft. Another bit of cheap insurance from my perspective.
To the point of this topic: we all agree that SOMETHING needs be done to assure the engine is fully lubed before it’s run in anger. However that happens seems to be the debate. I’m not gonna spend a foolish amount of time in this pursuit... but I am blessed with means different and beyond many. I’ve got the pressure pot. Chances are I’ve got a fitting to make the transition with and I’ve got time... I don’t like WASTING that precious time... but I also cannot afford to repair/rebuild/replace this engine at this point. And I wanna DRIVE this truck. So the cost/benefit analysis is this:
If I have, on hand, a means to shove pressurized oil through the galleys, is there a reason not to? On top of that I WILL make certain the oil pump is primed and working properly by driving it as intended. Points about cleanliness have been received... ultimately THATS my biggest concern as well, as a metal/wood fabrication shop is NOT the best place to build an engine. All that said, hooking up the pressure pot and visually verifying oil flow cannot hurt. I’m not gonna run the pressure pot beyond 40-50psi and I see it as cheap insurance... and a day at the shop during quarantine. My concern was that I was missing... something.
Necessary step?!? Up for debate. If I can put it all together in a mild, quarantine day at the shop, unless I’m risking damaging something, I don’t see a downside.
Jeremy
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No downside.
Thanks for the inspiration, reinstalling a 383, will run the pump first, go through a couple of quarts of cheap Penzoil to clear out the galleys while she's turning over on the engine stand.
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Based on your reasoning and thorough explanations I don't believe you've overlooked a/g. Certainly, you will not harm a/g by pre-lubing using a pressure pot. Quite the contrary. My only passing thought, again based on your comments, is to consider running the pressurized pre-lube through a good inline oil filter just prior to oil galley injection using an oil filter sans internal bypass, guaranteeing that undetected particle contamination is captured before introduction to the lube system.
Building the oil pressure to as low as 30 PSI should be more than adequate since there will be little bearing load on the rotating assembly, meaning that your plan of 40-50 PSI is spot-on IMHO. Spring loads imposed on the camshaft bearings and valvetrain are irrelevant at cranking RPM if the components were suitably lubricated during assembly, as I am sure they were.
So, I see no downside to your plan.
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Thank you for saying.
I really like your idea of prefiltering. Just like starting a fresh hydraulic system. Not a difficult step to take either.
I have a friend with a prefilter setup for hydraulics. It’s just fittings.
So now the goal is strained and filtered oil injected under pressure to my engine. Probably a couple of times. Verify as best I’m able, while the engine is on a stand, that everything gets oil.
After that there will be sitting... I’ve got to stuff the motor in it’s hole etc. plumbing, wiring. I’ll leave the distributor out until last and spin the pump with a drill motor. After that I’ll keep the spark plugs and fuel pump fuse out and spin the engine on the starter a little bit.
After that the thing will have to run and self sustain. I’m using a roller cam, so I shouldn’t need intensive cam break-in. Once the cam is broken in, or realistically once I’ve verified that I didn’t IMMEDIATELY smear a cam lobe, the goal is to seat the piston rings as hard and fast as possible. “Pops” Yoshimura said “fast break-in, fast engine”... or something close to that. I plan on finding a goodly pitched hill and making my truck get up it as quickly as possible. Lather, repeat.
The point is to seat the rings against the cylinders as hard as I can. Making the engine develop big cylinder pressure is the way to do it. Make it work... as it’s designed to do.
After all that I’ll probably drive this thing like a grandma.
Speak softly and carry a big stick.
Jeremy
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The 1 thing my machine shop told me to do once the motor built oil pressure (verified by the gauge and the valvetrain with the valve covers removed) was to rotate the motor by hand a few times then repeat the priming process.
I'm not sure what this accomplished or if it was necessary. Has anyone ever heard of this?
It's an effort to purge all of the air from the lube system and evenly distribute lubricating oil to all of the friction surfaces that don't rely on oil splash. I think a better method is to supply a continuous oil feed while rotating the crankshaft slowly. Albeit, all roads lead to Rome - the outcomes are similar.
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That’s the base of my thinking with the pre-oiler... to force oil through the places designed to have pressurized oil in them, while also spinning the engine. Ideally to assure that oil has fully filled the bearings and there won’t be any metal on metal. I don’t think it’s absolutely necessary, but it’s not so difficult to not consider. I have most of what I’ll need on hand.
Jeremy
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After you prime the engine, you should ALWAYS, spin the engine with the starter with the spark plugs removed, and verify your oil pressure gauge is reading pressure. You need to validate the engine's oiling system is working. A pre-lube system is fine but unnecessary for your engine. On some applications, the oiling system does require a method of pressurizing the system with a pre-lube charge vessel. It won't hurt unless you introduce something foreign into the system, but make sure your internal system is good to go because that is what matters.
Tight bearings because I plan on running a lightweight synthetic oil and changing it frequently.
Tight clearances, high volume pump, and lightweight oil ??? Now you're scaring me
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As I’ve said from the beginning... the goal has never been outright power, the goal has been to build the most efficient BBC I can. A lighter synthetic oil is gonna have less parasitic losses... The only reason I can see to be worried about a high-volume pump would be in a car application with the necessarily smaller oil sump. I’ve got an 8-quart pan along with the oil cooler. Despite being listed as high-volume, I’m guessing only marginally higher volume than the stock pump.
I’m not at the shop to verify, but the bearing clearances are still written on the caps. I’ll take a look next time I turn the engine over. They struck me as being on the tighter side... as the machinist and I had discussed. I mentioned wanting to run lighter oil...
I’m learning and open to advice... as I wrote above, I thought building a Chevy would be a little easier than its turned out to be. There’s too many options sometimes and I don’t have the wealth of specific knowledge of this forum... that’s why I’m here. I fancy myself fairly intelligent... with a decent enough background to avoid making the worst mistakes. That said, I’m learning new every day.
Jeremy
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I don't think you should be building a big block with light weight oil in mind for efficiency especially when you are already obviously very concerned about oiling.
In my opinion, ditch the high volume oil pump and run a standard volume pump with your tight clearance bearings. Remember the main functions of the oil:
L - Lubricates
C - Cleans
C - Cools
C - Cushions
S - Seals
Light weight oils do not provide the cushion big blocks need.
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I think we’re missing each other coming here... I don’t mean 0-weight oil... ever. I mean addressing the new realities from when this motor architecture was originally conceived. This engine ISN’T ever gonna see zero-weight oil. MAYBE 5-weight... in the winter.
That being said... although I cannot PROVE it, I’d put money that the factory recommended 20w-50 in the summer. Honestly, I’ll do one better... the ORIGINAL specs on the architecture of the engine in discussion likely didn’t factor multi-weight oil period. Better than 40-years later you have to look HARD for 20w-50. It’s OBSOLETE.
The new reality is that 15w-40 is a heavyweight oil, in 2020. Original factory specs were likely for straight-weight. I’m not talking about zero-weight, or castor-bean oil or negative weight royal purple changed every run as guaranteed by my sponsor... Royal Purple.
I am saying that things have come a long way...
I’m certain I can and will change a 5w or 10w synthetic oil way more often than absolutely necessary. I’m certain, in MY experience that the INITIAL treatment of a fresh engine is the thing that concerns me the absolute most. I’m meticulous. Diligent. I didn’t just FIND myself here. I’m not worried about KEEPING a motor running... been doing that for a while. I’m really the most worried about creating that initial, original bit of oil-film that will prevent metal-on-metal contact.
THAT’S why I’m even here talking about a pressurized oiler.
Small pan, I’d definitely understand concerns with a higher volume pump. Perhaps even if my end desire was a high-G application like autocross or the like. Even roundy-round racing... I’ve got none of that in mind. And even so... you guys have made me seriously rethink shooting pressurized oil through the engine.
All I’m getting at is we’ve made a lot of advances since the “bibles” on these type motors were written. We have a different reality... a better reality strictly in terms of what we can pour in the crankcase.
I was talking to a farmer friend recently... he’s now a diesel convert... and a Ford guy as a result. All that said he summed up our new reality wonderfully: “gas engines last a lot longer these days. Fuel injection doesn’t wash out the rings and ruin the oil and wear them out as quickly as a carburetor”...
The only gas engine Loran has is his old Ford tractor. It’s got a side draft carb, so little of that’s a concern. I’ve got EFI... not at all a concern for me.
I’m gonna spin the pump to replicate high-RPM running. Long enough to make sure the sump doesn’t empty. To Vile’s point about oil “cushion”... totally heard. But seriously... in my experience I want to do everything I can to assure there’s oil present between crank journal, rod journal, and associated bearing. If there’s oil THERE, before the spark event takes off... KNOWING THAT is the goal. ASSURING THAT, since I really cannot KNOW it... seems the best idea.
I didn’t admit before... the BOTT motor I build was the second attempt. I blew it up immediately the first time. It wasn’t catastrophic... but it took complete reassembly to fix. All new bearings, despite only truly wiping one. Because on a motorcycle, if you’re gonna split the cases, you should put new bearings in. Personally, if I’ve gone that far I’d put new bearings in anything. Cheap insurance. Point of this thread.
Despite chasing every thread in that BOTT engine... running wire through every galley I could see... the cases had sat. Outside... I have no idea of the Latin name, we call them dirt-dobbers in the south, colloquial, had made a home in a main oil galley. Fortunately it wasn’t a catastrophic failure and that same crankcase and crank went on to do good things... the initial failure made an impression though. I’m open to a failure on this one... but I’d just as soon not. It will be expensive. Even if I catch the tick and shut it down immediately.
Engines IDLE at hundreds of RPM’s... they run at thousands. It doesn’t take much loss of oil to ruin a bearing with those basic operating parameters. I’m talking about an engine just sustaining itself, not actually doing any OUTSIDE work. The reason everyone knows about zinc and ZDDP right now is because they HELP to assure that initial oil film. GIs in the pacific had to refill gas tanks on running Jeeps with no oil in the crankcase. The Jeep factory that built those motors wouldn’t have had the same results.
The purpose of this post was to question the best way of assuring an initial oil film between bearing and “spinning-part”... Regardless of pump or anything else that oil film is far easier to support than to build... and once you’re relying on an explosive event, with the pressures and speeds, there’s little, if any opportunity to correct.
I had a plan to build this thing... and a purpose. Even a philosophy, if you will. I’m not super worried about moving so much oil I starve the pump. I’m not worried about the oil being too thin. I AM worried about having oil between journal and bearing, before an 11:1 spark event takes things out of my hands.
Ultimately I want to go dry-sump... not because I need it, but because it’s efficient. It’s a philosophy. I want to get the most from every gasoline molecule I feed this thing. I don’t expect 30 MPG... that’s stupid. Not down a hill with a tailwind. But thin oil and fuel injection, high-compression, a lead-free right-foot and a scavenged, dry-sump may allow an honest 15 MPG... with a whole bunch of fun factor. 14 MPG sans dry-sump. And I’ll be able to say that I did it. The real point of this exercise is becoming keeping Jeremy sane through quarantine. I just don’t want to blow it up before I can hammer on it.
#lowerexpectations
Beat the virus, stay healthy, stay safe.
Jeremy
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Mains as listed on the block. I paid good money for these measurements, so I’m assuming they’re correct.
1: 0.0035
2: 0.0035
3: 0.0030
4: 0.0035
5: 0.0045
He went a little big on #5 as is generally accepted. Tightest I can find anyone recommending is 0.0025. Loosest acceptable seems to be in the 0.0045 range. So I am trending tighter, but I don’t think dangerously.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200526/e2a3bb4f20e61d86983fb5e7988b4ba6.jpg)
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I want to emphasize I’m not trying to be combative. I appreciate the wealth of knowledge available to me on this forum. I want to emphasize equally that I do have my own knowledge base, enough so to embark on this journey with a philosophy. Part of that knowledge base includes the knowledge that things are substantially different now from when these engines were originally designed. In many ways far better now. We’ve got multi-weight synthetic oils. I want to take the best advantage I can of that fact.
Jeremy
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I think we're talking about two things:
Potential damage on commission, and,
Oil preference.
On the former, I make sure my bearings are coated with a viscous assembly lube at all points of metal to metal contact.
One that doesn't run out. Pre-lube with only oil will run out except for where gravity or vacuum holds it in.
One downside is that the oil will flush out the pre-lube.
On the latter, I go with my gut most of the time, based on research, experience, and feedback from other gear heads. Real scientific, I know, but it's worked for 40+ years.
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Are you running a roller cam?
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Yes. Roller cam.
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