Post by: Spool on March 14, 2021, 08:28:18 PM
73 C20 here.
I'll try to keep this short and unemotional despite my frustration.
I've had a mechanic tell me I needed new shoes on my drum brakes on the back end in Dec- I took his word for it and he hasn't gotten it right to this day.
I'm seeking your professional opinion and any personal advice on how to proceed with this guy.
Here's the story.
My truck sat idle for a year while I was overseas.
In that time, my mechanic of years sold his shop to new management.
When I returned in late Dec of 2020, I figured I'd give him a shot- I needed a transmission service as my truck wasn't engaging into first when cold and also wanted my fluids replaced.
He calls, and says hey, you need new shoes and few other things... I green light it, as well as asking him to replace the bearings on the axels while he's down there.
This cost me $1,600 and an unreasonable 10 days of service.
I get the truck back and I'm burning oil on my headers- the valve cover gaskets he replaced we're done poorly.
I bring it in- he fixes it.
A week later, my brakes are squeaking.
He says put fifty miles on it, break them in.
I come back after fifty miles (7 weeks? I don't drive far.) He takes a look and now tells me the shoes he put in are defective and now I need new drums and shoes.
I get a little upset and he ends up covering the new drums on the house.
I get the truck back 3 days ago with new shoes and new drums and the truck is great for about 10 miles across two days of driving.
The brakes are now squeaking again and they're extremely hot (I washed the truck and steam was coming off the drums.)
Not only that, but now the truck is driving differently- wobbly almost. I turned home today because I felt I might not make it to the store.
Furthermore, when I go to use my brakes, they're not consistent- the truck stutters to a stop...
At this point, I'm fairly furious. I texted him and told him I'm coming first thing tomorrow morning.
So, with all of this, I ask you, have you ever heard of such a problem with drum brakes?
I never had a problem with my brakes until he told me I did and attempted to fix them 2 times, tomorrow being the third.
Is he incompetent? Do I take legal action if he doesn't get it right a third time?
Thanks for reading.
Any advice is always appreciated.
Post by: Mike81K10 on March 14, 2021, 09:41:14 PM
If the shoes he put on were defective, they would be under warranty by the way. Most likely, never changed them. He may have improperly installed the new ones or you have some other issues such as needing a brake bleed, brake proportioner, master cylinder, or brake booster. Would not let that person touch my ride again in your case.
Post by: Spool on March 14, 2021, 09:47:51 PM
My issue is, I’m right on cash right now and can’t be doubling down money wise to have someone different look at it.
Your advice is solid and small claims might be the result.
At this point, I go in tomorrow, slightly aggressive but still respectful hear what he has to say- at the end of the day, I just need it done.
Any idea of what would cause the brakes to stutter or heat the way they are?
He told me had had to press the housing into the new drums as it wasn’t a direct fit?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Mike81K10 on March 14, 2021, 10:16:25 PM
I would find out what it would cost and pay (if affordable) to have a reputable shop inspect your truck to see if anything is visibly wrong where the other shop worked on it. You do not have to get them to do repairs if money is the issue. If you do take it back to the same person, have him show you what he is talking about on your truck and take many pictures.
There should be no cost for a problem you already paid for.
Post by: Spool on March 14, 2021, 10:19:30 PM
Appreciate your time.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Mr Diesel on March 15, 2021, 12:29:00 AM
Post by: bigben5054 on March 15, 2021, 01:39:49 PM
As for legal action, that's up to you. Just filing the case will cost you a few hundred more $ and take a couple days of your time to prepare and actually go to court. Small claims court would be the best avenue, but you might have a tough time convincing a judge that knows nothing about auto repair that the first guy messed up without another mechanic coming in to testify how/what the first guy did wrong.
Sorry for your troubles. Good luck.
Post by: Spool on March 15, 2021, 03:16:35 PM
Unfortunately, I’m strapped for cash at the moment and can’t afford another mechanic.
I intend to take it back today and speak with the owner instead of the manager I’ve been dealing with.
I do keep paperwork on all things for the truck- including a receipt for the new drums that were covered on their end.
If he fails this time- I’m S-O-L and will have to find the time/money to go to a different mechanic.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: JohnnyPopper on March 15, 2021, 11:05:28 PM
Rear brakes are simple stupid as earlier described. Get a pic of the assembly before you attempt to confront this guy. Compare notes.
As noted, the fact he said he had to press on the drums clearly makes the case he is incompetent. There is a shoe separator that allows you to get the perfect clearance between new shoes and drums.
If he had to press on the drums, the shoes were incorrectly spaced, resulting your high temps due to lack of clearance between the shoes and drums.
With the abundance of DIY videos, you can probably fix it yourself. Man up, YOU can do it!
Post by: VileZambonie on March 16, 2021, 06:54:27 PM
Post by: Spool on March 16, 2021, 07:04:51 PM
I'm in LA (for now...)
Current status is I met him yesterday and explained how ridiculous this is over a brake job, and that although I appreciated him covering the drums for business loyalty on the last run, I expect him to resolve this now.
He said he's got the drums at the machine shop now, and he's still uncertain over what the issue is. He's guessing maybe my axel is worn down.
I told him my axel isn't worn down, and if it is, his mechanics should have noticed in Dec. when they replaced the bearings.
Tomorrow I'll get the truck back fixed and done, or broken w/ a refund on the brake job...
So far, he went from it's the shoes, to the shoes I put in were defective, it's the drum, and now it's the axel...
All the while I keep going back to, 'I never had a problem until you tried to fix one.'
I don't have a jack for my truck - thus no pictures with the wheel off.
Post by: Spool on March 17, 2021, 04:29:02 PM
I picked the truck up today.
Tells me (insecurely/lacking confidence/tired of dealing with me) that he replaced the drums he just replaced
and had them machined to be slightly thinner. Also told me they arched the shoes a bit.
Sends me video of him driving my truck on the freeway at 70mph as some sort of proof.
I asked him to provide an invoice describing the work done - he was reluctant, but finally did.
He goes on to say the leaf springs are bad, the shock absorber needs to be replaced, the axel housing may be warped...
I stopped him from talking and explained I understand the truck is old, but I never had a problem before this. Regardless, what do we do if they squeak again?
He says we're prepared to refund the cost of labor on the brakes if the issue isn't resolved.
I drove it home, down a hill, come to a stop, and sure enough they start to squeak again...
I'll drive the to the store in a bit and see how she feels.
But odds are, I'll be back tomorrow to collect my refund...
Post by: VileZambonie on March 17, 2021, 04:54:16 PM
Post by: Mike81K10 on March 17, 2021, 05:26:08 PM
Would not let that person touch my ride again in your case.
Post by: Spool on March 18, 2021, 09:33:16 PM
At best, he made it squeak far less - stopping on hills seems to be the trigger now.
I'll drive it for a few days because of work and bring this to end on Monday.
Post by: Spool on March 25, 2021, 09:06:33 PM
In search of a new mechanic, I found two that I liked as they specialized in classic cars.
However, their popular reputation has their schedules booked out at least two weeks for me to bring the truck in.
At this point, I'm thinking the 'universe' is screaming at me to do it myself.
My worry is the awful mechanic has more knowledge than me to begin with...
So, am I truly able to fix what he couldn't? Let's see... I could use a helping hand with this from you guys.
So, I found a decent video by that popular Chris Fix guy on YouTube:
https://youtu.be/Q5j3sKgNoEs
While watching the video and becoming more familiar with the drum brake, I was looking for two things.
1. Tools needed.
2. A hypothesis of what is going wrong in the first place...
In that regards:
1. I will need a lift and two jack stands. Which ones do you guys recommend I can buy without breaking the bank?
Also, when he lifts the truck, he lifts from the pumpkin and places the jack stands on the axel. Is this correct?
2. I'm thinking the mechanic either bought cheap parts or he assembled them incorrectly- which I'll need help identifying with you guys.
A more specific hypothesis is that he has adjusted the self-adjuster incorrectly. But, I can't figure out a reason as to why my brakes squeak intermittently.
They seem to squeak if I press the break too hard and when stopping on an incline. They also seem to misbehave more after 5 miles or so, so heat seems to be a factor as well.
The truck also intermittently speed-wobbles, almost like a skateboard when it gains too much speed. Yet it's all intermittent, so I'm having trouble finding a root cause.
With all that said, I think tools are first. So, can I trouble any of you for recommendations on a lift and jack stands?
Post by: Mike81K10 on March 25, 2021, 10:12:15 PM
If you buy the tools you need and get a maintenance manual you will learn and start saving money as you work on your own truck. You will also get a great deal of satisfaction and will be able to save money in years to come by fixing other problems.
You also have this forum to ask questions and there are many on this forum with a great deal of experience and there is the technical section of this forum with a great deal of info. If you buy jack stands, make sure they are good to be safe. Safety is also the first concern and take your time as you learn and do not take short cuts on anything. You will find yourself getting better as time goes on. Get a family member involved and make it fun.
Post by: Spool on March 25, 2021, 10:17:36 PM
And I couldn’t agree more with the personal satisfaction of learning and doing for ones self.
So, I see jacks online- my truck weighs 4,400 in total.
If I’m lifting just one end at a time, I can easily use two ton jack stands, correct?
(I know this is basic math, but I’d rather ask stupid questions than make stupid mistakes.- I’ve never jacked anything except a Honda to change a tire.)
How much is a fair price for two Jack stands? $100 for a pair or do I need to invest more for quality to ensure safety?
And then the same question for lift.
Should I invest in a lift as seen in the video, or smaller one that I can hide behind my bench in case I ever get a flat? (Not that I have a spare at the moment- but just thinking aloud for now.)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Jon87V20 on March 26, 2021, 01:09:58 PM
When the shop doing the gears had it all apart, the guy called me and said the rear shoes were in bad shape and needed replacing and he would do it without charging for labor. I figured I would have them do it since they were already in there and I wouldn't have to do it later. He said they replaced the shoes and resurfaced the drums.
When I got the truck back, I was initially really happy with it since the brake pedal travel was way less than it was before and my parking brake would bite right away.
Unfortunately, not long after I noticed while in slow moving traffic on the highway the rear right side seemed to be sticking and was making a squeaking sound and grabbing on that side once every revolution of the wheel. It was also getting very hot. I tried using the adjusters, but that didn't help. I called the guy and said what's the deal with the brakes sticking. He said he couldn't advise me about brakes over the phone, but he could have it towed up there, or I could drive to some other shop closer to me that he trusted (his shop is fairly far away from my house).
I decided against having it towed back up there as I was frustrated they didn't do it right the first time. After driving it to work a few more times, it seemed to clear up but started having issues again. I noticed the right side shoes have a stripe on them like they are rubbing there and getting really hot and there is a significant amount of dust in that drum compared to the other side.
After taking everything out on the driver side yesterday, I found the machined pads in the backplate the shoes slide upon (lands) are badly worn. They feel uneven and one even has kind of a ridge ground into it. This is on the side that wasn't even sticking so I'm expecting the other side to be even worse today. If the lands are beat up too much, it can cause the shoes to get stuck and not be able to retract when you let off the pedal from what I understand.
The advice I got in that thread was to try brazing to fill iln the uneven surfaces, then sand them back to be flat again. It's either that or I'll nave to pull the axles and replace the backing plates.
It's very frustrating they either didn't notice, didn't care, and didn't tell me about the worn lands when they were doing this work. It's another reminder to me of why I never pay anyone to do anything with my vehicles.
So anyway, take a look at the lands on your backplates and see if they are smooth, or worn. May be contributing to the brakes getting stuck.
Post by: Spool on March 26, 2021, 02:43:22 PM
Nice to know I'm not the only and also, I feel your pain.
You've basically described my issue to a T... the intermittent issues, the heat, the smell... It's a mess.
I will also say, I'm a bit intimidated. As much as I look forward to this job, I really need to keep it under the $775 I've been refunded.
Your description of replacing Axels or brazing the landing is also intimidating at the moment.
However, I did start this thread by saying I'll do my best to keep my emotion out of it...
Yet, while watching only less than an hour of drum brake material I've learned there is no 'housing unit' to be 'pressed into the drum.'
Thus, my mechanic was just talking to talk... I'm pretty upset. If this project ends up costing me more than $775, I may walk back over there
and try my hand and getting the full refund with a remainder of $900 for the other 'work' he did while mentioned the better business bureau.
I'm not the type of guy to cause a fuss, but I feel completely had and spending $1,600 doesn't come easy for me.
1st, what is the landing? Are we talking about the backing plate shown here in the picture attached?
(And if so, how much we talking to be replaced if needed?)
Post by: Spool on March 26, 2021, 02:48:24 PM
Anyone ever use the brand, Torin Big Red?
The reviews seem to lean towards the awful side on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Torin-Hydraulic-Trolley-Floor-Jack/product-reviews/B0028JW4PU
Maybe I could just use their Jack Stands and buy a better lift elsewhere.
Question: Better to have a scissor lift that I can keep in the truck for the future, or better to have a hydraulic lift to keep at home?
Post by: Mike81K10 on March 26, 2021, 08:30:04 PM
Post by: bd on March 26, 2021, 10:03:25 PM
Next, don't skip on a hydraulic jack or stands! The risks of serious vehicle damage and maiming injuries or death are too great. That doesn't mean that you have to spend a grip, but bear in mind that you get what you pay for. "Good Deal" jacks are inexpensive for a reason.
Regarding jack stands: procure matched 3-ton, square base, steel stands at a bare minimum - up to 6 tons. Always purchase stands in pairs - a minimum of two, but four can prove very handy. Compare extended and collapsed height specifications to ensure that the new stands are suitable to support your vehicle at a convenient work height.
I would not use a scissor jack for more than changing a tire or as a supplemental support for an otherwise stabilized load. Pairing with chocks is an absolute must!
Regarding hydraulic floor jacks: hands down, a floor jack is one of the most useful tools you can own. A wider wheel track spacing and longer wheelbase provide a more stable support stance that is less likely to tip while lifting or maneuvering a lifted vehicle. Heavy, steel frame jacks may be less susceptible to frame distortion with unbalanced loads or if a load shifts. Cast steel or forged wheels/casters are more durable than other materials. Quick-lift options can be very useful. Select a jack with an absolute minimum cradle diameter of 3", 5" is notably better and more versatile. Compare maximum (raised) and minimum (lowered) cradle heights. Look for jacks that have the greatest range of lift. Minimum height specification and extended wheelbases are most relevant with respect to ground-hugging vehicles. Nowadays, I wouldn't waste money on any hydraulic jack rated at less than 2 tons; 3 tons is becoming the new standard, 6+ tons is good for lifting unloaded, medium-duty trucks.
Now, for the downside. In today's marketplace, unless you spend a lot of jing, jacks are generally disposable. Most are constructed offshore and procuring service parts, even simple seals, can be a frustrating challenge. If a jack begins to leak, replacements are so inexpensive and readily available that it is generally better, and less costly, to discard it and procure another.
Post by: Mr Diesel on March 27, 2021, 06:18:55 AM
Get a manual for the truck. Chilton or Haynes from local auto parts store will do fine for you. About $20 I think.
Post by: VileZambonie on March 27, 2021, 07:29:35 AM
Post by: Spool on March 27, 2021, 10:46:34 PM
BD, I have some cinder blocks handy that can be used for wheel chocks. I went back to Pepboys today and settled for the 6ton jacks for $66. Even though I could have just as easily went with the 3ton jacks on sale for $25, I really appreciated the larger base on the 6ton jacks.
As for where to work, I understand I need a flat surface, but can I do this on a lawn or is concrete necessary?
I have a concrete area in the yard that could be cleared, but I've become very comfortable in my current area for all work which is on that lawn.
Diesel, good tip. Thankfully I already have a service manual on hand w/ bookmarks here and there from past jobs. Time to add a new bookmark for this next job.
In conclusion, I was comfortable with Torin's jack stands, but not their lift. I stopped by AutoZone to see what they have but was only reminded why I shop there less and less. It seems the lift will have to be an online purchase unless I'm forgetting another vendor in the LA area. Diesel, I know you mentioned Walmart, but I tend to stay clear of that place- I'll check out harbor freight though.
What brand lifts do you guys own/enjoy the most?
I noticed the nicer lifts with a base closer to 5'' as BD mentioned come in two makes- hydraulic and dual-piston with the latter being more expensive. Is one better than the other?
Post by: Spool on March 27, 2021, 11:11:05 PM
https://www.amazon.com/Blackhawk-B6350-Black-Fast-Service/dp/B0054WGRBA/ref=pd_rhf_dp_s_crs_dp_rhf_k2p_2?pd_rd_w=yC75i&pf_rd_p=19e936ea-548d-48be-af7d-3c9ad58b2970&pf_rd_r=5YG6RAFCJK5PTENMXSXN&pd_rd_r=3d3427dc-1136-41bf-ba46-9667fc1b303a&pd_rd_wg=VMbZv&pd_rd_i=B0054WGRBA&psc=1
It's about $20 more than the Torin lifts I mentioned earlier.
Reviews on Amazon rarely find an average - either extreme 5 stars or extreme 1... Hard to take into account before a purchase.
(Maybe Torin jacks aren't as terrible as the internet proclaimed they are?)
I'll be looking to get something before the weekend in hopes of being able to get her up and begin assessing what's going on mid week, so I can possible take a shot at this next weekend.
Post by: bd on March 28, 2021, 10:27:34 AM
I agree with Vile. Harbor Freight will likely be my destination when I need a spare.
Post by: Spool on March 28, 2021, 10:59:31 AM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on March 28, 2021, 11:55:45 AM
Regarding the picture of my wheel below, do we know what the bolts in the center are for?
It's been a while since I've removed a tired, but I'll loosen the lug nuts before lifting, and then proceed to remove the tire.
But will I need to remove the 8 bolts in the center or should they come right off as a whole once the lug nuts are off?
Post by: Spool on March 28, 2021, 02:22:55 PM
Perhaps a fluid leaking from the drum- brake fluid from the cylinder making its way?
Post by: bd on March 28, 2021, 02:50:09 PM
Post by: Spool on March 28, 2021, 04:26:12 PM
So, what is the proper order of operation for my Axel bolts?
Do I slightly loosen those before lifting as well?
And which would be wiser to remove first- lugs or Axel bolts?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: VileZambonie on March 28, 2021, 04:50:57 PM
Cordless impact, (I prefer Milwaukee Fuel) or an air impact if you have a compressor.
Torque Wrench - 250lb-ft
Brake Spring Tools
Wheel Bearing Lock Nut Socket
Gasket Scraper
Post by: Spool on March 28, 2021, 07:42:12 PM
I’m not exactly investing in tools as much as I am buying the absolute necessary tools to address my brake job.
I have a makita impact driver I can use for the lug nuts and Axel bolts.
I have a torque wrench, but only to 80ftlb.
I also considered the brake kit tools this week after watching the video I shared above, but figured I can just release/set the springs with a flathead and plyers for now to save forty bucks.
My budget is $775 for this at the moment. Thus far, I’ve spent $210 on the jacks and lift. So, $565 remaining.
I’m gonna post again tonight or tomorrow with final questions on lift and Jack etiquette before I hoist it up, remove the wheels and drums and take photos.
With that I’ll report back, so I can decide which parts and tools I’ll need to put together a nice to have list and a need to have list to proceed.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Mike81K10 on March 28, 2021, 07:53:28 PM
Post by: Spool on March 28, 2021, 08:05:33 PM
200-300ftlb torque wrench?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Mike81K10 on March 28, 2021, 08:42:04 PM
Post by: Spool on March 28, 2021, 09:26:01 PM
I have a fairly decent size of your everyday tools I’ve accumulated over the years though.
Just never lifted the truck or touched the brakes- so all new purchases would be brakes related as a necessity this time around.
Had a girlfriend in high school whose father told me- “everytime you do a job, you get at least one new tool.”
Post by: Mike81K10 on March 29, 2021, 12:19:00 AM
Post by: Spool on March 30, 2021, 09:32:06 PM
Please bear with me and my total inexperience- yet, I have googled and youtube the details that I wish to confirm now.
The most ideal spot for me to lift my truck is where I park it. It's in the yard which is mostly hard ground and fairly flat. (Picture attached)
Is it true I can use some thick 5/8ths wood under my jacks and lift to do my work safely here? If so I'll cut the wood to size, and place it appropriately.
The driver's side may need two pieces of 5/8ths plywood to make it perfectly level.
Now, for the support areas themselves-
Can I confirm that I safely use the lift on the differential and place the jacks on the axel? Specifically, place the jacks right under the leaf springs to get the jacks further apart from each other? (Picture attached)
Now, for the steps.
1. Park the truck, place cinder blocks in front of the front tires as chocks. (No e-brake on my truck.)
2. Loosen the lug nuts.
3. Place the lift and lift the truck.
4. Reach under the truck with my arm only to place the jacks under the axle.
5. Slowly lower the truck on the jacks.
6. Lift the lift so that it's just touching the differential, but not lifting, for extra safety in case the jacks give.
7. Shake the truck a bit to ensure it's firmly supported.
8. Remove the lug nuts.
9. ***Remove the axel bolts in the middle of my tire?***
10. Remove the tire.
11. Place the tire under the truck/in front of the axel as yet another safety step.
12. Attempt to pull the drum off - tap with a hammer if needed.
Once I get here- I want to examine as much as I can without disassembling the brakes and take photos to report back here.
I'm also thinking, I'd like to put the tires back on after this just to raise my comfort level a bit that I can successfully lift/remove+place tires/drop the truck, and drive.
Any thoughts?
Post by: JohnnyPopper on March 30, 2021, 11:02:49 PM
Alright. Hoping to see if I can confirm some basic details with you guys before I make this endeavor and lift my truck for the first time assess what's up.
Please bear with me and my total inexperience- yet, I have googled and youtube the details that I wish to confirm now.
The most ideal spot for me to lift my truck is where I park it. It's in the yard which is mostly hard ground and fairly flat. (Picture attached)
Is it true I can use some thick 5/8ths wood under my jacks and lift to do my work safely here? If so I'll cut the wood to size, and place it appropriately.
The driver's side may need two pieces of 5/8ths plywood to make it perfectly level.
Now, for the support areas themselves-
Can I confirm that I safely use the lift on the differential and place the jacks on the axel? Specifically, place the jacks right under the leaf springs to get the jacks further apart from each other? (Picture attached)
Now, for the steps.
1. Park the truck, place cinder blocks in front of the front tires as chocks. (No e-brake on my truck.)
2. Loosen the lug nuts.
3. Place the lift and lift the truck.
4. Reach under the truck with my arm only to place the jacks under the axle.
5. Slowly lower the truck on the jacks.
6. Lift the lift so that it's just touching the differential, but not lifting, for extra safety in case the jacks give.
7. Shake the truck a bit to ensure it's firmly supported.
8. Remove the lug nuts.
9. ***Remove the axel bolts in the middle of my tire?*** NOT NECESSARY
10. Remove the tire.
11. Place the tire under the truck/in front of the axel as yet another safety step.
12. Attempt to pull the drum off - tap with a hammer if needed.
Once I get here- I want to examine as much as I can without disassembling the brakes and take photos to report back here.
I'm also thinking, I'd like to put the tires back on after this just to raise my comfort level a bit that I can successfully lift/remove+place tires/drop the truck, and drive.
Any thoughts?
Other than that, you are spot on!!
I (we) look forward to your stunning success!
Post by: Spool on March 30, 2021, 11:16:43 PM
I’ll be doing this tomorrow or Thursday pending work and time to go grab some wood.
Edit- I just now realized I read past Vile saying I didn’t need to remove the Axel bolts earlier as well. Sorry about that, Vile!
I appreciate you all.
Post by: Spool on March 30, 2021, 11:39:13 PM
I’m not sure if my wheel is aluminum or steel though- I’m assuming the former?
Post by: JohnnyPopper on March 30, 2021, 11:54:14 PM
Post by: JohnnyPopper on March 30, 2021, 11:54:51 PM
Post by: Spool on March 31, 2021, 07:39:33 AM
I’ll buy a larger one down the road. (Pun intended?)
Post by: Spool on March 31, 2021, 01:10:16 PM
Is there a right/wrong way to place the drum back, or do you just push/tap it on and then the wheel holds it in place?
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 01, 2021, 12:35:05 PM
Post by: Spool on April 01, 2021, 09:58:44 PM
I went very slow and shook the truck quite a bit to ensure it was stable.
However, I got stuck at the axel bolts. Perhaps, I need to put the tires back, drop the truck and loosen them as well?
Pictures attached of everything.
**Edit** I forgot to add... I placed one extra piece of wood (which are all screwed together as one piece) on the driver's side and the jack is also one notch higher than the passenger's side.
I did this to get the truck level as best I could by using the leveler seen in one of the photos. Silly or okay?
Post by: Spool on April 01, 2021, 10:00:21 PM
I drove to the food store today to stock up before pulling the truck apart and on one occasion, the truck shook so badly when coming to a stop that I felt a knocking beneath my feet.
Post by: frotosride on April 01, 2021, 10:10:53 PM
I see you went with the 6ton big red's. I've used them for years without a problem. One thing to remember is to bend the small tab on the side of the red base. It's up towards the top and keeps the post from coming out if you use them as a handle or turn it upside down. I think it even shows this on the directions.
Highly recommend putting the tires back on and lowering the truck to break those bolts.. I think that was mentioned earlier.
Post by: Spool on April 01, 2021, 10:13:16 PM
The hammering of the pin was indeed in the instructions, I just held back on that step for now and only carry them from the base for now.
I must have misunderstood the prior instruction- I didn’t think I had to remove the Axel bolts.
In the morning, I’ll redo it and then remove the drum again.
Thanks Froto.
Post by: frotosride on April 01, 2021, 10:43:28 PM
The axle and hub has to come off the spindle to get the drum off.
I know there's a great write-up on this forum that'll help you. I'll try and find it and post it here.
Post by: Spool on April 01, 2021, 10:45:37 PM
Just new terrain for me is all, but I’ll keep it slow and steady as I’m dealing with all this weight.
I’ll post pictures tomorrow around noon PST showing the inside of the drum before I proceed further.
One of the best axels ever produced? I hope it’s not damaged! Is the backing plate separate from this Axel if the backing plate needs to be replaced?
Also, is there a ‘housing unit’ in any of this, or did my terrible mechanic just make that up?
Post by: frotosride on April 01, 2021, 11:07:35 PM
It is a highly sought after axle especially in the offroading community. It's tough so severe damage isn't likely. I wouldn't be surprised if it just has the shoes improperly adjusted.
Housing unit... Well depends how old he is. He may be referring to the differential housing, which has the carrier,ring and pinion in side or he could be referring to the axle hub housing on the spindles, which you will see soon.
I did read back through the thread and Vile did state that you don't have to remove the axle shaft bolts so you didn't miss read that. I also have no idea how to get the drum off without doing so.
Thanks Froto.
The hammering of the pin was indeed in the instructions, I just held back on that step for now and only carry them from the base for now.
I must have misunderstood the prior instruction- I didn’t think I had to remove the Axel bolts.
In the morning, I’ll redo it and then remove the drum again.
Thanks Froto.
Post by: Spool on April 01, 2021, 11:11:11 PM
His words were that he had to machine the drums and press the housing unit into them.
I’m very close to walking back over there to collect a full refund if I find he was making stuff up or did absolute garbage work.
My neighbor took her old 90 something Toyota pick up there after me for a brake job... he fixed the brakes but then the car wouldn’t start.
Post by: frotosride on April 01, 2021, 11:16:30 PM
Post by: Spool on April 01, 2021, 11:18:17 PM
Post by: VileZambonie on April 02, 2021, 06:28:44 AM
Quote
I did read back through the thread and Vile did state that you don't have to remove the axle shaft bolts so you didn't miss read that. I also have no idea how to get the drum off without doing so.
That is not what I said. I said that you do not have to remove the axle bolts before removing the wheel. Removing the axle before you remove the wheel is a good way to get get gear oil all over your wheel and make a nice mess before you even get started. If you don't have an impact, just break them loose first, but you shouldn't remove the axle bolts until you have your catch pan under the hub and are ready to get started.
Quote
You do not need to remove the axle bolts before you remove the wheel. Since you are investing in tools, some recommended items are:
Cordless impact, (I prefer Milwaukee Fuel) or an air impact if you have a compressor.
Torque Wrench - 250lb-ft
Brake Spring Tools
Wheel Bearing Lock Nut Socket
Gasket Scraper
Here are basic steps:
1. Remove wheel.
2. Remove axle shaft and axle shaft gasket (if used) or clean off RTV sealer.
3. Bend tang of lock washer away from the outer lock nut and remove the outer lock nut, lock washer and inner lock nut.
4. Remove outer wheel bearing.
5. Pull hub and drum straight off axle housing. If brake lining is dragging on brake drum, back off brake adjustment by rotating adjustment screw.
REAR WHEEL BEARINGS ADJUSTMENT
Before checking wheel bearing adjustment, make sure brakes are fully released and do not drag. Check bearing play by grasping tire at top and pulling back and forth or by using a pry bar under tire. If bearings are properly adjusted, movement of brake drum in relation to brake flange plate will be barely noticeable and wheel will turn freely. If movement is excessive, adjust bearings as follows:
1. Raise vehicle until wheel is free to rotate, then remove axle shaft.
2. Disengage retainer tang and remove retainer from axle housing tube.
3. Torque adjusting nut to 50 lb ft while rotating hub assembly. Ensure bearing cones are seated and in contact with spindle shoulder.
4. Back off adjusting nut until just loose.
5. Insert key into adjusting nut slot, if equipped. Install snap ring to retain key in position.
6. Lower vehicle, then install axle shaft.
Axle bolt torque: 90 lb/ft
Wheel nut torque: 120 lb/ft
Post by: frotosride on April 02, 2021, 07:54:42 AM
QuoteI did read back through the thread and Vile did state that you don't have to remove the axle shaft bolts so you didn't miss read that. I also have no idea how to get the drum off without doing so.
That is not what I said. I said that you do not have to remove the axle bolts before removing the wheel. Removing the axle before you remove the wheel is a good way to get get gear oil all over your wheel and make a nice mess before you even get started. If you don't have an impact, just break them loose first, but you shouldn't remove the axle bolts until you have your catch pan under the hub and are ready to get started.
Vile, I gotta regrettably say thank you for proving my wife right... Now even I know all the words go in to this lump above my shoulders.. that doesn't necessarily mean all of any of them get processed...
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 02, 2021, 12:24:55 PM
Oh, man... This is both comforting and painful to read, Jon.
Nice to know I'm not the only and also, I feel your pain.
You've basically described my issue to a T... the intermittent issues, the heat, the smell... It's a mess.
I will also say, I'm a bit intimidated. As much as I look forward to this job, I really need to keep it under the $775 I've been refunded.
Your description of replacing Axels or brazing the landing is also intimidating at the moment.
However, I did start this thread by saying I'll do my best to keep my emotion out of it...
Yet, while watching only less than an hour of drum brake material I've learned there is no 'housing unit' to be 'pressed into the drum.'
Thus, my mechanic was just talking to talk... I'm pretty upset. If this project ends up costing me more than $775, I may walk back over there
and try my hand and getting the full refund with a remainder of $900 for the other 'work' he did while mentioned the better business bureau.
I'm not the type of guy to cause a fuss, but I feel completely had and spending $1,600 doesn't come easy for me.
1st, what is the landing? Are we talking about the backing plate shown here in the picture attached?
(And if so, how much we talking to be replaced if needed?)
I thought this was the axle he was talking about
Post by: Spool on April 02, 2021, 01:04:39 PM
I’ve bent back these tabs and some appear to be missing, but how do I get this outer ring off?
I don’t need to buy this socket tool do I? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210402/a211474b24a0428312453f07430f43b2.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210402/5330d7b372ff9b1e017b17c1a6bc7ed6.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210402/cd4163499bc3ff8df29cffb25a123b8a.jpg)
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 02, 2021, 01:10:24 PM
I bought one at NAPA for my front end, they have a variety.
Post by: Spool on April 02, 2021, 01:11:24 PM
Edit*** Johnny, are you saying I need this tool to proceed? If so, what is it called and are there different sizes?
Post by: Spool on April 02, 2021, 01:33:37 PM
Sorry, Vile - this is kind of a new language for me.
Does anyone know what size socket is needed?
Post by: Spool on April 02, 2021, 02:04:35 PM
It measures at 2.5” and has six notches. I think I found it here?
The service manual doesn’t specify the size of the socket that I can see, but it does beg the question if I have 10-1/2” or 12-1/4” axels.
This is my daily, so I'm trying my best to get this done as soon as possible- if anyone wouldn't mind giving me a little bit extra help, I can be texted at 213.604.5436
I’m gonna continue to search the web for now.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210402/5de5edc27561e40470e2ae748375b283.jpg)
Post by: Spool on April 02, 2021, 02:32:47 PM
https://www.amazon.com/27046-Bearing-Locknut-Socket-Trucks/dp/B08R17PZHG/ref=sr_1_23?dchild=1&keywords=wheel+bearing+lock+nut+socket&qid=1617391891&s=automotive&sr=1-23
Post by: VileZambonie on April 02, 2021, 02:37:52 PM
Post by: VileZambonie on April 02, 2021, 02:39:15 PM
QuoteI did read back through the thread and Vile did state that you don't have to remove the axle shaft bolts so you didn't miss read that. I also have no idea how to get the drum off without doing so.
That is not what I said. I said that you do not have to remove the axle bolts before removing the wheel. Removing the axle before you remove the wheel is a good way to get get gear oil all over your wheel and make a nice mess before you even get started. If you don't have an impact, just break them loose first, but you shouldn't remove the axle bolts until you have your catch pan under the hub and are ready to get started.
Vile, I gotta regrettably say thank you for proving my wife right... Now even I know all the words go in to this lump above my shoulders.. that doesn't necessarily mean all of any of them get processed...
I think we all just have a switch that changes channels when the women start talking 8)
Post by: Spool on April 02, 2021, 02:42:43 PM
Any auto parts store should have it sitting on the shelf.
You would think, but I called NAPA, Autozone, Oreillys, PepBoys and Harbor Freight. Half don't know what a Wheel Bearing Lock Nut Socket is and NAPA/PepBoys didn't have any in stock.
I just bought the one on Amazon and it should be here tomorrow.
So, I lost a day, but at least I didn't Uber all around LA in the heat racking up taxi costs with a face mask on... :o :-\
While we're at it-
I'll proactively buy a strong torque wrench.
What else should I proactively start eyeballing? Diff fluid?
Post by: Spool on April 02, 2021, 03:41:57 PM
Should I be concerned about the health of these tabs? Or rather, can I continue to use them in the condition they’re in? This is the drivers side.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210402/fde69b48e5b595017505a88e7ac9e905.jpg)
This is the passengers side(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210402/39feae2f339d49f78136d5e683b81372.jpg)
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 02, 2021, 04:53:35 PM
They're pretty soft, so some break off after years of servicing.
If many are broken, look for replacements.
Post by: Spool on April 02, 2021, 05:06:03 PM
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 02, 2021, 05:48:39 PM
You get the torque you want on the nut, and move it more or less to the nearest tab/indent and bend the tab so it locks the nut to keep it from getting loose.
Over the years mechanics will not be careful when lifting the tabs to service the (fill in the blank) and they BREAK.
You will see jagged edges and notice that the tab will not reach it's desired indent.
If you have a few good ones you're pry good to go. If not, find replacements.
Post by: Spool on April 02, 2021, 05:53:03 PM
The drivers side was done correctly then, with one of the tabs lining up in one of the 6 grooves. The passenger side, nope- just a few bent against the lock nut. And I'd say just close to half of them are 'chewed' and bent. I hope I can get away with keeping this one for now.
Speaking of Torque, I'll need a new Torque wrench that exceeds the one I have now which is 80lbs.
Being on a budget, anyone have any recommendations? I'd like to get this craftsman one for $90 which is 50-250ftlb and 29inches long, but I think I can get something closer to the $50 range for now.
I might go EPAuto - https://www.amazon.com/EPAuto-2-inch-Torque-Wrench-13-6-203-5/dp/B01LX4NIFK/ref=sr_1_8?dchild=1&keywords=torque%2Bwrench&qid=1617403572&refinements=p_36%3A-8000&rnid=1243644011&s=hi&sr=1-8&th=1
I found them online and then they came up in a google search for top 9 torque wrenches in 2021 (for whatever that's worth.)
(I'm not thrilled about going cheap on new tools, but as mentioned, there's a budget on this one.)
Post by: frotosride on April 02, 2021, 08:52:49 PM
Post by: Mike81K10 on April 02, 2021, 08:59:33 PM
Post by: Spool on April 02, 2021, 09:23:12 PM
Mike, $90 is great for a craftsman. But I'm just not there right now at all.
Pinching every penny right now on this job, especially until I know what to fully understand what the repair will be.
Thanks guys.
Post by: frotosride on April 03, 2021, 01:45:56 PM
Post by: Spool on April 04, 2021, 12:02:57 AM
Got the outer lock nut off, tab ring, and inner lock nut off, but the outer bearings would not come out.
There's play in them, but they're not coming out. So, I pulled the drum and housing off with ease.
There is plenty and plenty of brake dust inside. I didn't push, blow or clean any of it at the moment and stayed clear of breathing any in.
The brake shoes are a brand called Centric, which isn't the Cardone shoes he told me he put in...
"I put in Cardone Heavy Duty Brake Shoes for you because the truck is so big." - Liar.
I'm keeping the order of everything coming off, even if only I have 4 parts at the moment including the drum.
I intend to print out a photo of the brakes themselves on a full piece of paper to use as a type of map when disassembling the brakes.
From here, I'd like to confirm what you guys could see as the culprit.
Thankfully, I do think it's just the brakes as the axel rods I pulled out seem to be perfectly healthy with no chips or signs of grinding on their grooves/teeth.
I'd like to compile a full list of parts before spending the money to UBER to Pepboys with everything from brake cleaner to shoe themselves.
I accidentally touched the inside of the drum with my greasy glove, so I'll have to clean that as well - what to use - brake cleaner?
If anyone could help me put together a list of needed items, I'd be forever grateful.
For the pictures... Here we go, anything pop out at you guys? *The shoes already look rough and the brake dust after just two weeks of hardly driving anywhere other than the food store seems like an awful lot.
I'll post many pictures now, first of the passenger side and then of the driver's side.
Post by: Spool on April 04, 2021, 12:03:49 AM
Post by: Spool on April 04, 2021, 12:07:12 AM
Post by: Spool on April 04, 2021, 12:08:09 AM
Post by: VileZambonie on April 04, 2021, 05:52:38 AM
Post by: Spool on April 04, 2021, 09:17:21 AM
The parking brake strut springs are upside down. Cap off the axle and hose them off good with your garden hose. Seems to be a lot of brake dust. Use a screwdriver to lift the shoe from the backing plate and see if the lands are lubricated. How was the adjustment? Looks like they were overadjustedParking brake strut springs are upside down... No bueno. My e brake hasn’t worked since I bought the truck/ foot pedal never moves, so I never forced it.
I’ll find something to cap the Axel and hose off right away this morning to take all new pictures. I’ll try my best to collect the water and dust in a Home Depot bucket as to best avoid a muddy work area.
I’ll carefully pry back the shoes a bit (1/4”? 3/8”?) with a flathead screwdriver while wearing some eye protection as I’m not sure where and where there is not any loaded tension that could spring loose on me.
I wouldn’t know about the adjustment because I don’t have that experience, but the drum on the drivers side was definitely touching the rear facing shoe as I felt friction when pulling it off.
Post by: Spool on April 04, 2021, 12:52:25 PM
Some of the landings appear to lubed.
I'm gonna go with a wild guess here and say the brakes aren't centered. 1/2'' gap on the rear side and 1/4'' gap on front side for both sides of the cars from the shoe to the edge of the backing plate - you can see this from the inside of the shoes placement on the landings of the backing plate. Thoughts?
I'll post all new pictures with the dust removed now- drivers side first:
Post by: Spool on April 04, 2021, 12:54:04 PM
1/4'' measurement is leading shoe.
1/2'' is the trailing shoe.
Post by: Spool on April 04, 2021, 12:55:05 PM
Post by: Spool on April 04, 2021, 12:56:38 PM
1/4'' is leading shoe.
1/2'' is the trailing shoe.
Post by: Spool on April 04, 2021, 01:10:32 PM
Quick google shows the brand is cheap for economy cars.
A more thorough search shows they have different types of shoes with mixed reviews.
Centric
CEN 11102480
111AC4607 66 29 N20
The mechanic told me he put heavy-duty Cardone shoes in there, which they clearly are not.
By searching CEN 11102480 I can see they sell for ~$30 with 'Front Drum Brakes' continuing to pop up...
With these specs:
https://www.globalindustrial.com/p/vehicle-fleet-maintenance/vehicle-brake-systems/disc-pads-and-brake-shoes/centric-premium-brake-shoes-centric-parts-11102480
I've been redundant in explaining I'm on a budget, but with the budget I do have, I would like my brakes to be top-notch not only for the truck and myself but before I let my wife drive this thing. Any thoughts? I'm expecting to head to Pep-Boys today with a shopping list.
Post by: Spool on April 04, 2021, 01:38:20 PM
When you said the parking brake strut springs were upside down, are you referring to the tab facing downwards opposed to upwards?
I'm watching this video on youtube right now, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wlQN1o_0YQ and he too has the tab pointing downwards.
Post by: Spool on April 04, 2021, 01:53:10 PM
-He said Raybestos, Bendix or Wagner.
I asked, if it was your 73, 3/4ton, 350 truck, what shoes would you use?
He said, Raybestos.
I asked, do you carry Raybestos?
He said, no.
I asked, what brand that you carry would you put in your truck?
He said, I wouldn't put anything we carry in my truck.
Hahaha. Not the first time they've had this attitude.
Thoughts?
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 04, 2021, 02:23:04 PM
Seems you're working on two different trucks?
Or am I just going mad??? :o
Post by: Spool on April 04, 2021, 02:24:04 PM
(I just changed the screenshot to show the YouTube logo on it to avoid confusion.)
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 04, 2021, 04:43:54 PM
Post by: VileZambonie on April 04, 2021, 04:52:30 PM
Post by: Spool on April 04, 2021, 04:59:59 PM
-new shoes- what size?
-wheel cylinder?
-lube the landings?
-should they be offset as they are with a 1/2” on one side and 1/4” on the other or should they be centered?
-What do you guys think of Centric and what brand shoes do you use?
-do I need to add more diff fluid now that I’ve lost some?
-do I need add a lube/grease to anything when I put it back together?
-locktite on the Axel bolts?
Mind you, I’m completely inexperienced, so I’m bound to make the same mistake without the proper sources. I’ve been watching YouTube videos all day but I’m kind of relying on this forum to point the light in the right direction for me.
If it were you, and you loved your truck, what would you do and with what brand/parts?
Post by: Spool on April 04, 2021, 05:28:42 PM
So, if I take it all apart, and clean my backing plate, what is the best shoes I can buy?
Was Pepboys correct on their recommendation of Raybestos?
I’ve already confirmed my shoes are not heavy duty with the part number.
This...
1. Take it all apart.
2. Clean my backing plate
3. Order new shoes
Correct?
Post by: VileZambonie on April 04, 2021, 05:31:17 PM
Post by: VileZambonie on April 04, 2021, 05:34:51 PM
Post by: Spool on April 04, 2021, 05:39:26 PM
Take your hand and push the shoes in the opposite directions and you will see they float on the backing plate. The shoes move back and forth on the lands. The primary shoe lifts off the anchor pin and the rear shoe wedges into the drum up against the anchor pin on duo-servo brakes.Yes, they do move. I learned about how the trailing does more of the work because of the rotation of the wheel and that’s why the leading shoe is ‘shorter.’
I learned about this in this video:
https://youtu.be/P8qMfFtj6Vo
But, because they move, should they be centered? Or rather, is it okay that the leading has 1/4” gap and a the trailing has a 1/2” gap?
Post by: Spool on April 04, 2021, 05:44:42 PM
Your shoes are the standard $50 shoe and should work fine as long as they are not damagedThere was quite a bit of dust for two weeks and little driving. Also, in the pictures o attached earlier, they are a bit knicked and scored near the top.
I’m thinking it would be wise to get heavy duty brake shoes as the mechanic normally told me. What brand do you like to use?
The inside diameter of my drums measure ~11.5”
So it’s safe to assume I need the specific, 11.5/32” heavy duty brake shoes.
That mechanic said he machined these drums - do I need to buy a tool to check the measure of this?
I'd like to buy new shoes this evening if possible.
As for my wheel cylinder - I don’t see any leaking. But when I touch the (silicon?) closing on either side, a bit of brake fluid came out. Do you think my wheel cylinders look healthy?
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 04, 2021, 08:00:39 PM
Your wheel cylinders look good too, no leaking on top of the E-brake blade. Don't worry if you find some behind the boot.
Drums look like they were turned, if not they look clean, no score marks.
The differential between the front and rear shoe vs the plate is natural, as the assembly moves left and right. (As VZ pointed out)
The difference is made up when you adjust the shoes. Don't overthink this ;D
Put it back together, adjust the shoes through the back plate before you install the axles.
Fill the diff, start motor, put in drive with brake, let it go and idle, allow oil to flow out to the bearings, top off oil.
Put your wheels on and burn rubber if you have the desire.
Don't forget, you need to deliberately come to a full stop in reverse for the brakes to auto adjust the gap out of your shoes relative to the drums.
Post by: Spool on April 04, 2021, 08:18:06 PM
I gotta say though, I'm having a hard time believing that after taking everything apart the answer is to just put it back together slightly differently to stop this incessant squeaking and heat problem. This mechanic had three shots at this- how could he be so terribly wrong with the same parts? Mind you, each time I got it back, everything's fine for 10-15 miles, then it starts to progressively get worse and worse. Would this not insinuate a faulty part?
(Not to forget, the last time I drove, it was so bad, I felt a thumping under my foot while braking- leaving me to believe the brake was shaking the wheel, then the axel, then the diff, then the drive shaft, and finally the trans underneath me. All of this from him not adjusting the shoes correctly?)
I've stripped everything to the backing plate except the cylinder considering I've come this far and I've just been researching this all day long.
Backing plate looks good to me - maybe a bit of rust but other than that, it seems fine... Maybe my lands are uneven like Jon had mentioned on page 1 of this thread?
Here's where I'm at though... At this point, why try the same thing a 4th time instead of just upgrading to new parts now if I can upgrade the shoes to heavy-duty with a new kit for both sides for under $200? I'd still have half my budget left over.
Plus, in spirit of restoring the truck, I've now learned drum brakes and can say that the rear brakes are 'spotless.' No?
I'll attach pictures again here: Drivers side first.
Post by: Spool on April 04, 2021, 08:19:20 PM
Post by: Spool on April 04, 2021, 08:37:55 PM
Spool, I just wanted to say I feel your pain on this and had a similar experience after letting someone else work on my truck. I normally try and do everything myself, but had taken it in to have both differentials rebuilt and re-geared with higher ratios. Here's the thread I started a while back http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?topic=37836.0
When the shop doing the gears had it all apart, the guy called me and said the rear shoes were in bad shape and needed replacing and he would do it without charging for labor. I figured I would have them do it since they were already in there and I wouldn't have to do it later. He said they replaced the shoes and resurfaced the drums.
When I got the truck back, I was initially really happy with it since the brake pedal travel was way less than it was before and my parking brake would bite right away.
Unfortunately, not long after I noticed while in slow moving traffic on the highway the rear right side seemed to be sticking and was making a squeaking sound and grabbing on that side once every revolution of the wheel. It was also getting very hot. I tried using the adjusters, but that didn't help. I called the guy and said what's the deal with the brakes sticking. He said he couldn't advise me about brakes over the phone, but he could have it towed up there, or I could drive to some other shop closer to me that he trusted (his shop is fairly far away from my house).
I decided against having it towed back up there as I was frustrated they didn't do it right the first time. After driving it to work a few more times, it seemed to clear up but started having issues again. I noticed the right side shoes have a stripe on them like they are rubbing there and getting really hot and there is a significant amount of dust in that drum compared to the other side.
After taking everything out on the driver side yesterday, I found the machined pads in the backplate the shoes slide upon (lands) are badly worn. They feel uneven and one even has kind of a ridge ground into it. This is on the side that wasn't even sticking so I'm expecting the other side to be even worse today. If the lands are beat up too much, it can cause the shoes to get stuck and not be able to retract when you let off the pedal from what I understand.
The advice I got in that thread was to try brazing to fill iln the uneven surfaces, then sand them back to be flat again. It's either that or I'll nave to pull the axles and replace the backing plates.
It's very frustrating they either didn't notice, didn't care, and didn't tell me about the worn lands when they were doing this work. It's another reminder to me of why I never pay anyone to do anything with my vehicles.
So anyway, take a look at the lands on your backplates and see if they are smooth, or worn. May be contributing to the brakes getting stuck.
Just revisiting your story here, Jon. Did you find a solution to this and how did you measure your lands?
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 04, 2021, 08:48:02 PM
I don't know him personally, but to put out that boundary, I have to take a serious look.
When brakes need replacing, in a functional auto adjusting scenario, the little wheel at the bottom is hyper extended, right?
Meaning, it has kept the gap between the shoes and the drum close, real close.
Now, inexperience mechanic, after installing correct parts, tries to reinstall the drum, it won't fit, he hammers and flails, cursing and using his biggest hammer, chipping and scoring the shoes, FINALLY realizes that he needs to reduce the length of the hyper extended thingamabob.
Still too tight, so after a short time of driving, it HEATS UP... screeching et al ensues.... :(
Go with the flow my friend, you will be just fine.
Post by: Spool on April 04, 2021, 09:00:53 PM
Forgive me, I've edited my last post if you wouldn't mind re-reading it? - Not sure if my edit would change your comment here?
I fully respect, admire and appreciate your opinion as well as Vile and BD. I've learned much in the last 5 years here and consider you all my digital mentors. You all have helped me tremendously. (There was another man named Henry, but I haven't seen him in two years - hope he's well.)
I'm just having a really hard time wrapping my head around a mechanic failing to adjust the adjuster correctly multiple times.
Not only that, it's not that I drive too far in one 'session' and then it begins to heat up due to friction... It's that I'll get the truck back, and it's perfectly fine for a day or two. Then it gets a little squeaky-intermittently after 3 or 4 days. Then it's getting so hot I can smell it and I'm turning heads at every red light as I shake and squeak to a complete stop...
So, if you're saying, after a short time of driving, it heats up - what is expanding? The adjuster is only supposed to expand after I wear down the shoes a bit, no? What would explain my description above? Surely, not the adjuster moving so quickly after only just 20 or so miles?
That's why, at this point, I'd rather just scrap it all and start fresh. Even my adjuster is coated with gook- the only thing that looks new is the shoes and a few two springs up top. I've been frugal thus far - I'd be very comfortable buying heavy-duty shoes and new pieces in a kit.
Post by: bd on April 05, 2021, 01:40:00 AM
If you've lost confidence in the quality of the shoes and are dead set on replacing them again, install Raybestos 248PG or Wagner PAB248DR shoes. Just bear in mind that squealing with brake application can result from the hardness of the lining, humidity or moisture, excess dust accumulation, drum finish, and drum hardness. Pull all of the wheel cylinder rubber boots back and inspect for the presence of brake fluid. Replace the cylinders if brake fluid is discovered under the boots. Bear in mind that a slight amount of water may have leaked past the cylinder pins when you rinsed off the backing plates. If water droplets are found under the boots, wipe the cylinders dry along with any surface rust that may have formed. Have the drums measured and compared to the legal wear limit when you go to pick up parts. Purchase, at least, a new hardware kit containing new springs and nails, four cans of brake cleaner, a nylon bristle parts cleaning brush, a wire brush, some medium grit emery cloth or sandpaper, a small tube of white lithium grease, and necessary fluids.
(http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=38616.0;attach=53090;image)
Thoroughly scrub and wire brush all of the oil, grease, and gunk off of the backing plate and axle spindle assembly. Disassemble the star adjusters and wire wheel the threads and pintle. Rinse the threads and pintle clean and then lube with white lithium grease and reassemble. Check the shoe lands (six per backing plate) for deeply incised grooves and, if necessary, sand them just enough to remove any abrupt edges that may cause the shoes to catch. Smear a dab of white lithium grease on each of the lands and remount the shoes, starting with the star adjuster and lower spring before lifting the shoes into place onto the backing plate, followed by the correct length nails, hold-down springs, and self-adjuster lever. Install the park brake strut with spring, the adjuster link, and the shoe return springs. Make sure that the park brake is backed off. Approximate the initial shoe adjustment so that the drum will slip onto the spindle and over the shoes with zero to very little resistance. The shoes may need to be rocked slightly from side-to-side to get the drum started. Perform the final adjustment after the wheel bearings are properly adjusted.
Post by: Spool on April 05, 2021, 02:17:50 AM
I just googled the RayBestos and Wagners and noticed the Wagners are 'Thermo Quiet,' but that appears to just be a marketing term for Wagners' ceramic material? Neither mention 'Heavy Duty'- is this important or do you think I'm getting hung up on a throwaway term?
You mentioned squealing can be a result of lining material. Is one type of lining material better than another in generally warmer climates like Los Angeles? If not a ceramic lining like Wagner, what other materials can brake manufacturers use?
I've been reading online that it's good practice to replace the cylinders when replacing shoes. With that I'm currently shopping for a brake kit that would provide me with as many new pieces as possible - springs, adjuster, cylinder, locking pins - even the 'e-brake arm' if you will... Any suggestions that you've enjoyed in the past?
Speaking of shopping, here's my have and needs:
Haves:
-Brushes
-Sandpaper
Needs:
-Shoes we mentioned
-The kit we just mentioned
-Brake Cleaner. I'll most likely order CRC online as store shelves have been empty.
-White Lithium Grease
-Differential Fluid (Are there different kinds or one size fits all?)
-Brake Fluid (Different kinds or one size fits all?)
-Flange wrench for brake hose (Do we know which size?)
-Small clear rubber hose so I may satisfy my curiosity of filming the air bubbles escape when I bleed the brakes.
-Caliper to measure drums
My drums:
I need to take a closer look at them and see the brand/other manufacturing markings to find the legal wear limit on them.
The mechanic said he had to machine them... but who knows?
It's not ideal for me to bring the drums anywhere, but I can measure them. I'd need a larger caliper as the one I have isn't large enough.
This video is informative https://youtu.be/7swXdE0YqFY
Should I hold off on buying the shoes before confirming the diameter of my drums?
"Disassemble the star adjusters and wire wheel the threads and pintle." - Is the adjuster in the bottom center? If not, do you happen to have an image or diagram pointing to this?
"The shoes may need to be rocked slightly from side-to-side to get the drum started." - Getting the drum started as in getting the shoes to fit within the drum, correct?
"Perform the final adjustment after the wheel bearings are properly adjusted." - This makes sense only because I was reading your old post while you replied here! Just to clarify though, properly adjusted is after I torque my inner and outer lock nuts, correct? I'm not sure if my backing plate has a window, but your instructions in this post should get me by just great! : http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?topic=31495.msg265059;topicseen#msg265059
Thank you again for your time, man.
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 05, 2021, 02:34:54 AM
So sorry I failed to note your issue of heat and smell. That is a horse of a different color... as someone once said.
Of late, we have spoken of the rubber flexible line that rides between the chassis and the front wheels. They can break down internally and retain pressure to the caliper. Like stepping on the brakes while in motion.
Given your description, that may be what is going on here.
Picture this: you step on the brakes, pressure builds in the rear line to two brakes, you slow down, but the flexible rubber line acts like a one-way valve, not allowing the pressure to bleed off.
Heat, smell, screeching.
The only other alternative is the proportioning valve is malfunctioning.
In either case, the dumb shoes, springs, cylinders, adjusters, are reacting as designed, to PRESSURE. ;D
Post by: Spool on April 05, 2021, 02:46:51 AM
Spooler-friend
So sorry I failed to note your issue of heat and smell. That is a horse of a different color... as someone once said.
Of late, we have spoken of the rubber flexible line that rides between the chassis and the front wheels. They can break down internally and retain pressure to the caliper. Like stepping on the brakes while in motion.
Given your description, that may be what is going on here.
Picture this: you step on the brakes, pressure builds in the rear line to two brakes, you slow down, but the flexible rubber line acts like a one-way valve, not allowing the pressure to bleed off.
Heat, smell, screeching.
The only other alternative is the proportioning valve is malfunctioning.
In either case, the dumb shoes, springs, cylinders, adjusters, are reacting as designed, to PRESSURE. ;D
That certainly would be a horse of a different color.
Let's cross our fingers (or press our thumbs as I learned they do in Austria) that it's just a botch job within the drum and that the problem does not go beyond it and into the lines. My patience would wear very thin if this was the case considering I've been 'solving' this issue since I gave the shop my truck a week before Christmas.
Yet, considering the progress made since deciding to address it in the driveway- we've come a long way since just March 25th and even though the repair was unexpectedly long and unfinished as of now- I must say, the little wins along the way are quite enjoyable. I'll never sell this truck- I love it too much.
But, it would be great if I could safely and quietly pick up my wife at the airport in it on April 15th!
With the forum's help, youtube, discipline and a bit of luck- I'll be able to knock this out and get back to that KillSwitch I wanted to do with you and BD.
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 05, 2021, 03:06:08 AM
The line I speak of is about 18" of rubber, between the chassis and the rear axle assembly. Not expensive and easy to replace.
As many have observed, your brake components look fine.
Post by: Spool on April 05, 2021, 03:09:10 AM
You said proportioning valve/ had me thinking I’d have to start at the front and work backwards with new lines.
Post by: VileZambonie on April 05, 2021, 04:34:28 AM
As I said I'm running late, but did you say your drums are 11" and you have 13" shoes? :o What is the opening measurement of the drums and the depth measurement?
Post by: bd on April 05, 2021, 09:56:06 AM
Addressing Specific Questions:
(http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=38616.0;attach=53087;image)
Study the image ^^^^. The star adjuster and its associated spring are located at the bottom.
Rocking the shoes from side-to-side may be necessary to "center" the shoes around the spindle so that the drum will slip over them easily during installation.
The adjuster windows for your brakes are through the drums.
Post by: Spool on April 05, 2021, 01:00:28 PM
I'm running a little late this morning so I didn't get to thoroughly read your updates. You posted a link to a video, that guy is using the wrong terms so be careful. The few seconds I watched he described the shoes backwards and referred to them as leading/trailing. Two different types of systems. There is a lot of misinformation on the web let alone youtube.
As I said I'm running late, but did you say your drums are 11" and you have 13" shoes? :o What is the opening measurement of the drums and the depth measurement?
Thanks Vile.
Learning on the internet is a lot like getting your news - you kind of need multiple sources to form a solid picture.
I don't recall saying 13'' shoes- maybe a typo.
I did say my drum measured roughly ~11-1/8 '', in which I was trying to clarify if that means my shoes would be the 11-5/32" I saw online.
Post by: Spool on April 05, 2021, 01:13:27 PM
I'll report back with on the drum size once I find a solution of getting these measured.
I've been extremely frugal on this budget as I attempted to keep my investment in necessary tools under the $775 refund I received from the shop, which I've excelled in thus far. Lift, Jacks, lock nut socket put me back about $240 thus far. Thus with the remaining ~$535, I feel very comfortable at this point spending roughly ~$200 to replace all parts within the drum- Shoes, springs, adjuster, cylinder, clips/nails, and perhaps the e-brake 'arm' as well.
Thanks for clarifying the brake fluid. I'll proceed with the mentality of what's on sale I suppose, but does it make any difference not knowing what I already have? Similar to not using orange coolant if your tank is full of green coolant? -(A concept I never fully understood.)
I am genuinely interested in sorting out my understanding of the term 'heavy-duty' brake shoes and the different materials used in the brake linings. Would you mind elaborating on their differences for me before I make a purchase?
When I research Gear Oil, which I have been naively calling Diff Fluid, I find that trucks will use a 75W140 product. I wouldn't want to mix oils- therefore, is this to assume I should flush and fill new when I'm done? And if so, which oil would be best for my 14bolt differential?
I've also noticed my 'flange' wrench for the brake line is infact a flare wrench. Ha, how adorable. I hope to reread this thread in another 5 years with cute admiration of this novice chapter in my truck journey.
Post by: bd on April 05, 2021, 02:52:54 PM
"Heavy-duty" generally relates to the hardness of the lining and the method used to attach the lining to the steel webs, but use of the term is somewhat murky. Essentially, you can think of heavy-duty as riveted (commercial and fleet applications) vs bonded (individual consumer applications). Additionally, heavy-duty lining is generally harder, therefore, slightly less sensitive to pedal pressure and more prone to squeal. Riveted lining better tolerates heat than bonded lining for greater service life in applications that transport heavy loads where brakes may run hotter.
Post by: Spool on April 05, 2021, 02:57:35 PM
I'm having trouble finding someone to measure these drums. (Customer service ain't what it used to be... I'm met with a lot of 'ummmmms....')
I've tried Autozone, TriStar and Pepboys. First two said no and Pepboys told me I could drop them off and then come back hours later, which I thought was kind of silly.
Also called a shop nearby but their customer service was also in the ummmm realm.
I'll continue to find a solution for this though- hopefully by the end of the day.
When I mentioned it wasn't exactly ideal, it's because I have to pay for UBER to get there and back which is $20 each way plus the weight of the drums in some stranger's trunk.
That's why I was thinking why not just buy a 12'' caliper for $20.
Post by: Spool on April 06, 2021, 12:29:43 AM
For the brake kit, I was looking at Classic Industries until I realized Summit had everything in one place.
For shoes, the Rabestos BD recommended:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/agb-248pg?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKCAjw6qqDBhB-EiwACBs6x2Er0quA8y9HgB5rtjQp5XXN6MHA0W0r9_p2t2gcQpaNjMsT8aT3zRoClfAQAvD_BwE
I like Summit, they got cheap lock nut tab rings I could throw in too:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/yga-33480?rrec=true
Hardware kits made by Raybestos to match:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/agb-h7018/make/chevrolet/model/c20-pickup/year/1973
E-brake hardware as well:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/agb-h2508/make/chevrolet/model/c20-pickup/year/1973
For Wheel Cylinders there's no Raybestos, but there's two types of Dormans... $12 and $25- why the difference?:
https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/wheel-cylinders/year/1973/make/chevrolet/model/c20-pickup?SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=wheel%20cylinders&kr=wheel%20cylinders
Pretty sure this covers me hardware-wise.
Thanks for DOT 3/DOT 4 explanation, BD.
Only other big thing is the Diff Oil. 75W140 best?
This is new terrain for me as well, which I'll address after I rebuild the new brakes- I suppose I can just top it off for now and learn how to change it properly later? The guy who changed my oil last week ($60, different shop I've been going to for years) said he'd do it for $85... I said no thanks as I knew this job was coming up.
(Looking super murky in there when it drained out of the axel.)
Post by: VileZambonie on April 06, 2021, 04:41:57 AM
Post by: Spool on April 06, 2021, 09:01:11 AM
80w90 GL5You’re the best. Thanks Vile.
Post by: Spool on April 06, 2021, 09:41:45 AM
When taking the drums off I had the outer ring, tabs, and inner ring for both sides.
Except I had this forth piece on the drivers side only- what is it, and do I need to buy one for the passenger side?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210406/828e5bc761b395aa6bef6b059277ffde.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210406/fe47e666fb3df5af00cfdbab2543457a.jpg)
Post by: Spool on April 06, 2021, 10:49:02 AM
Two measurements up top are for the passenger side and two measurements on the bottom are for the drivers side.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210406/e2be1f74afe68aa09797c358416e528c.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210406/1289c87eb52349f4ed00bf23ac62cb09.jpg)
Post by: MIKE S on April 06, 2021, 11:08:14 AM
Post by: Spool on April 06, 2021, 12:14:35 PM
The sheet was printed after I told him it’s a 73 c20 rwd 350 14bolt diff.
If he’s wrong and the mechanic is wrong, then who is right?
I’m also extremely confused why the mechanic machines new drums in the first place...
Thus, if the measurements are correct, but the paper for 11” is incorrect, it still stands that I then also need new drums as well...
Post by: TexasRed on April 06, 2021, 12:39:49 PM
Post by: Spool on April 06, 2021, 12:47:26 PM
This learning curve is getting the best of me today.
What would the diameter be on new drums? 11 5/32 = 11.156?
And then they wear down wider from there making them discard at 11.259?
Post by: Spool on April 06, 2021, 12:58:02 PM
He says, yeah I forgot the 1 in 11._82 but his confidence seemed as strong as a kid caught stealing.
Post by: MIKE S on April 06, 2021, 01:12:40 PM
Post by: Spool on April 06, 2021, 01:27:30 PM
Seriously, at this point... I'd rather buy new drums, take it to (and try a third mechanic) to press my hub into the new drums.
I've waited till today before buying the Raybestos shoes to make sure they'd fit in the drum...
I'm just gonna buy the parts and shoes I listed in post #121 to at least get them in the mail.
I don't have the time, money, or patience to be getting into UBERs with my drums in plastic buckets to have mechanics do a halfway job.
What is the quickest and best way to solve this? New drums and then have someone press the bearing and hubs into it?
What's the worse cast scenario? I install new shoes, cylinder and hardware with the drums I have no to find they're not round and I'm back to square one?
I literally started this thread with, I'll do my best to keep my emotions out of this- but this is really wearing me down at this point.
All I needed was a transmission service in December and here I am 4 months later learning brakes on the fly so I can properly drive my truck again. (End of rant.)
I appreciate you all and I'm extremely grateful for your time, knowledge and patience.
Post by: VileZambonie on April 06, 2021, 03:24:14 PM
Post by: Spool on April 06, 2021, 03:45:48 PM
Please let me know if anything comes to mind- I'm searching Raybestos as that's the brand I'm pretty much sticking with for everything except the wheel cylinder.
(Summit didn't have a wheel cylinder made by Raybestos that fit my truck.)
Also, what tools am I gonna now need to remove my hub and press it back into the wheel? I was under the impression this is a job for a certified 'mechanic.'
Post by: Spool on April 06, 2021, 03:51:40 PM
I went in and told him found he's marking up his parts incredibly, should never have machined my drums, put in Centric instead of Cardone, installed parts incorrectly and I have zero confidence in any of the work he's done as I haven't been able to drive it since he 'fixed' it in December.
I told him I want a full refund because of this. Which would be $825 on top of the $775 he refunded so far as I paid $1600 in December.
He basically told me, he'll see me in court. Lost the battle, but I did file a complaint with the BBB.
Post by: Spool on April 06, 2021, 06:50:39 PM
1. Raybestos 248PG - Raybestos Element3 Brake Shoes
2. Raybestos H7018 - Raybestos R-Line Brake Hardware Kits (Hardware Kit)
3. Raybestos H2508 - Raybestos R-Line Brake Hardware Kits (Left E brake)
4. Raybestos H2509 - Raybestos Disc Brake Kit Components (Right E brake)
5. Dorman W49680 - Dorman Brake Wheel Cylinders (Left)
6. Dorman W49681 - Dorman Brake Wheel Cylinders (Right)
7. Auto Extra AX8847 - AutoExtra Brake Drums (Only ones in stock that he says will fit.)
8. Yukon Gear & Axle YSPSP-007 - Yukon Gear & Axle Spindle Nut Retainers
Post by: Spool on April 06, 2021, 11:17:21 PM
7. Auto Extra AX8847 - AutoExtra Brake Drums (Only ones in stock that he says will fit.)
Summit was telling me they use the same photo for several different drums and that the part number described above would in fact fit my truck. Thoughts? Risky?
Perhaps I should just order drums from elsewhere and bring em to a different shop to press everything together?
Also purchased the 80w90 gl5, dot3, lithium grease and brake cleaner today.
Looking to purchase from Summit by morning.
Post by: Mike81K10 on April 06, 2021, 11:37:28 PM
Post by: Spool on April 07, 2021, 10:45:33 PM
Brake lines - 12mm flare wrench?
Post by: bd on April 08, 2021, 12:53:28 AM
Post by: VileZambonie on April 08, 2021, 04:18:00 AM
This is where I'm at right now with the mechanic...
I went in and told him found he's marking up his parts incredibly, should never have machined my drums, put in Centric instead of Cardone, installed parts incorrectly and I have zero confidence in any of the work he's done as I haven't been able to drive it since he 'fixed' it in December.
I told him I want a full refund because of this. Which would be $825 on top of the $775 he refunded so far as I paid $1600 in December.
He basically told me, he'll see me in court. Lost the battle, but I did file a complaint with the BBB.
You should expect to pay full list or 1.5 x cost on parts when your vehicle is in the shop. It's a necessary part of operating the business in order to cover operating expenses. You can buy a hamburger patty cheaper at the grocery store too but you wouldn't make it an argument at a restaurant. At this point, just move on from these guys.
Why are you replacing the wheel cylinders? Were they bad?
Post by: Spool on April 08, 2021, 08:13:59 AM
I’m replacing everything but the drums just to have it all go in new at once.
If I have a problem from here it’s either my installation (which I’ll confirm with pictures here,) the drums or something else.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 08, 2021, 01:15:29 PM
My parts arrived today, so I'll be assembling the new brakes.
Question for the gear oil though as I've never changed the oil in the differential.
1. Loosen bolts.
2. Catch oil.
3. Clean gasket.
4. Apply new gasket.
5. Reattached diff cover - 10ft/lbs per bolt and allow 1 hour to cure.
6. Remove filler plug.
7. Pour gear oil until it begins to spill out to know it's full.
8. Apply thread sealant to bolt before replacing.
For the gasket and thread sealant. May I use these two products I already have?
Post by: Spool on April 08, 2021, 05:46:57 PM
True or false?
Edit*** the new adjuster actually came with a bit of silicon lubricant. Pic attached(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210408/583a356a6d2705667029c16593bd3bbf.jpg)
Post by: Spool on April 08, 2021, 06:37:43 PM
Springs in the kit. Two are larger than the others. How to know which are which?
All of my current springs are the shorter size, except 1, which is the leading side spring on drivers side.
What would you do? Keep em all short?
In sum, between old and new, I have 3 long and 5 short.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210408/aac5951840ecb9c77c8fcddb8b3d0357.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 08, 2021, 07:04:47 PM
Post by: bd on April 08, 2021, 07:52:53 PM
The star wheel threads and pintle need to be lubricated. Since silicone lubricant was supplied by the manufacturer, use that. You should use the lithium grease on the backing plate lands.
Post by: bd on April 08, 2021, 07:54:38 PM
Hey Guys.
My parts arrived today, so I'll be assembling the new brakes.
Question for the gear oil though as I've never changed the oil in the differential.
1. Loosen bolts.
2. Catch oil.
3. Clean gasket.
4. Apply new gasket.
5. Reattached diff cover - 10ft/lbs per bolt and allow 1 hour to cure.
6. Remove filler plug.
7. Pour gear oil until it begins to spill out to know it's full.
8. Apply thread sealant to bolt before replacing.
For the gasket and thread sealant. May I use these two products I already have?
This ^^^^ should work out well for you.
Post by: Spool on April 08, 2021, 08:18:40 PM
Regarding the springs, see the image below. The shorter spring compensates for the added thickness of the adjuster lever.Brilliant... It compensates for the added thickness. Thanks BD!
The star wheel threads and pintle need to be lubricated. Since silicone lubricant was supplied by the manufacturer, use that. You should use the lithium grease on the backing plate lands.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 08, 2021, 08:21:40 PM
I ordered Dorman cylinders and they sent Wagner’s. They fit- almost... I needed to grind the top of it ever so much for clearance to fit.
Cleaned up the backing plate nicely too.
But noticed the bottom two landings have a nice little groove in them... Can I still get more life out of the backing plate?
(Pics attached.)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/e7a735e62b0c1479d3b3f019bc474237.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/43237140a9148c017bef7e67c705ef9b.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/ee1be1d86de233a0a65dddfe93a269e5.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/814e1a2244254950de1d08e67e3b8b73.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/f8c03bb754bd299b2e4040aa500309a2.jpg)
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 08, 2021, 08:52:01 PM
Post by: bd on April 08, 2021, 08:58:49 PM
...Check the shoe lands ... for deeply incised grooves and, if necessary, sand them just enough to remove any abrupt edges that may cause the shoes to catch. Smear a dab of white lithium grease on each of the lands...
Post by: Spool on April 08, 2021, 09:22:04 PM
Good to hear to still use them, as I just discovered the same on the drivers side.
Sanding them isn’t getting me very far, but they’re sanded for sure.
But they’re by no means flat.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/81db843af02666a096b5449914cf8a84.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: bd on April 08, 2021, 09:29:49 PM
Post by: Spool on April 08, 2021, 09:32:48 PM
I have a sander, but only 150 for it at the moment. I’ve been using coarse emery cloth at the moment.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 08, 2021, 09:39:27 PM
Well, per bd, you don't want them to catch, but it doesn't look like there are any burrs or ridges.
Couple of fixes: A: Weldy weld, grindy grind smooth. B: Braze and fill, grind smooth. C: JB weld, grind smooth.
Maybe B & definitely C would require removal of the plate so as to apply work to a flat surface.
In the grand scheme of thing, your brakes are going to ignore those grooves.
Post by: Spool on April 08, 2021, 09:48:11 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/18d48a63e4a66adcd2bba4c9f05a9336.jpg)
Post by: bd on April 08, 2021, 10:10:11 PM
Post by: Spool on April 08, 2021, 10:11:55 PM
Yet, one last question for the evening:
In the picture, from bottom to top- outer lock nut, ‘tab lock’, inner lock nut, and.... what is the forth piece?
I only had one on the drivers side, not the passenger side. Is it essential?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/52cc929330a2db1b876da9c7a366e4b1.jpg)
So, after I finish assembling these brakes, bleeding the brakes and posting final pictures to confirm, I'll be looking to get the drum on for adjustment, before the tire.
Question still remains... This forth piece I have for the drivers side, do I need one for the passengers side? If so, this is gonna put me another two days behind schedule.
Post by: Spool on April 08, 2021, 10:12:54 PM
That's a wood rasp. Good luck using it on steel.Haha- believe it or not, it did the trick.
There’s a groove, but less of one with no significant lip!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 08, 2021, 10:14:12 PM
Better to fill and grind smooth or just leave them alone.
I would run them...
Post by: Spool on April 08, 2021, 10:18:45 PM
White lithium grease
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 08, 2021, 10:23:34 PM
I’m gonna be burning the midnight oil assembling the brakes- I’ll post pictures to confirm my assembly when I’m done.
Yet, one last question for the evening:
In the picture, from bottom to top- outer lock nut, ‘tab lock’, inner lock nut, and.... what is the forth piece?
I only had one on the drivers side, not the passenger side. Is it essential?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/52cc929330a2db1b876da9c7a366e4b1.jpg)
It's a keyed spacer between the bearing and the first adjusting nut. Originally came one for each side. sorry... ::)
You can pry get away without it, but...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 08, 2021, 10:41:33 PM
It doesn’t fit snuggly against the bearing though- it floats around.I’m gonna be burning the midnight oil assembling the brakes- I’ll post pictures to confirm my assembly when I’m done.
Yet, one last question for the evening:
In the picture, from bottom to top- outer lock nut, ‘tab lock’, inner lock nut, and.... what is the forth piece?
I only had one on the drivers side, not the passenger side. Is it essential?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/52cc929330a2db1b876da9c7a366e4b1.jpg)
It's a keyed spacer between the bearing and the first adjusting nut. Originally came one for each side. sorry... ::)
You can pry get away without it, but...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I missed it when I originally disassembled everything, and then it fell out of the drum a day later when I flipped it over.
So, you’re saying I need another one?
Don’t happen to know the part number do you?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 08, 2021, 10:43:17 PM
So I just slide that on the Axel before the inner locking nut?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/e248d17678b90b47a0d46d44a44becbe.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 09, 2021, 01:20:27 AM
I'm fighting myself with these upper springs- I think I made the mistake in my order of operations.
So, I'm gonna take it apart tomorrow and try again.
Post by: bd on April 09, 2021, 07:38:17 AM
The gold-colored spring seat (under the red spring in the yellow circle) is in the wrong position. The spring seat actually fits under the gold-colored adjuster lever hold-down spring (located in the red circle).
The long tube of the spring seat protrudes through the adjuster lever and functions as a fulcrum for the lever. If you study the shape of the seat it should become clear how it assembles with the lever and the spring.
Post by: Spool on April 09, 2021, 09:19:36 AM
I started with and this order
1. the trailing shoe/ebrake/adjustment lever.
2. the leading shoe
3. Star Adjustment and spring.
4. Upper return springs, but this when I ran into trouble.
I’m going to source a different approach on YouTube to see if I can switch the order up a bit.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: bd on April 09, 2021, 09:22:05 AM
Post by: MIKE S on April 09, 2021, 10:40:46 AM
Post by: bd on April 09, 2021, 10:50:06 AM
Post by: Spool on April 09, 2021, 11:08:12 AM
Do you have a reference photo of this seal? I’m completely lost on the subject.
Are we speaking of a seal here, where the Axel tube contacts the hub?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/f3d8733d6dc38cefe68cb22a97892b2d.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: bd on April 09, 2021, 11:18:56 AM
(http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=38616.0;attach=53043;image)
Post by: Spool on April 09, 2021, 11:21:44 AM
Post by: Spool on April 09, 2021, 11:41:43 AM
First two are the drivers side. Last two pictures are passenger side.
Post by: Spool on April 09, 2021, 12:55:15 PM
I found that my new nails were a quarter inch shorter than my old ones - so I'm using the old ones.
I also found that my 'trouble' last night is because I was being too gentle with the springs... Got em' fairly easily just now.
I'm finding the adjustment lever is loose, but I think that's what Johnny was saying about remembering to brake in reverse to set the brakes? Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMEIkVI1cAo
I've attached pictures of my work below. I think it's good to go and will work on the other side now. What do you guys think?
Post by: MIKE S on April 09, 2021, 02:08:33 PM
Post by: Spool on April 09, 2021, 02:26:09 PM
Guys, what is the trick to get this ebrake spring cable on the lever? I cannot get the drivers side for the life of me.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: bd on April 09, 2021, 03:08:40 PM
Usually, the cable is attached to the lever BEFORE the shoes are mounted on the backing plates. The easy way is to use the special pliers designed specifically for the purpose of compressing the cable spring. It can be a tiger to reattach the cable.
Post by: Spool on April 09, 2021, 03:09:14 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 09, 2021, 03:13:56 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/f55b187d62c06441f81995b06bf1dcf2.jpg)
Sandpaper to round this?
Also, is there any other trick other than buying the ebrake tool? The passenger side one was much easier.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 09, 2021, 03:31:41 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 09, 2021, 03:40:15 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/05a16df6511e2b4dab61350dc2a7a2f0.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/4701fd4c47a45a045fcf4883a431853e.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/4a749e587bc701d437c60d5d2903bbe0.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/bfb0de25cae58b114f042df00ef6bd7c.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: MIKE S on April 09, 2021, 03:43:59 PM
Post by: Spool on April 09, 2021, 03:44:46 PM
Post by: MIKE S on April 09, 2021, 03:46:56 PM
Post by: Spool on April 09, 2021, 03:51:08 PM
I’m gonna be burning the midnight oil assembling the brakes- I’ll post pictures to confirm my assembly when I’m done.
Yet, one last question for the evening:
In the picture, from bottom to top- outer lock nut, ‘tab lock’, inner lock nut, and.... what is the forth piece?
I only had one on the drivers side, not the passenger side. Is it essential?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/52cc929330a2db1b876da9c7a366e4b1.jpg)
So, after I assemble the drivers side, bleed the brakes, remove that rough edge on the axel with emery cloth, I'll be looking to fit the drums. Which I understand is to make it so it just barely touching the shoes when you spin it.
However, the million dollar question is, do I need that 'forth piece' show above for my passenger side as well. If so, I'm gonna lose another two days on shipping.
Post by: Spool on April 09, 2021, 03:56:37 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/d70623fe559232849f38b4c05a3a4124.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 09, 2021, 05:02:09 PM
What do you guys think?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/2377583be7ab71e2e9d3802c3b0598f7.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/d9c4a81fd6313c0da76d1e2c3f2c9d8f.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/667e5df8586c961dc202e356abbbbf66.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/da39170da76f968a84381588f57731bf.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/01df8964e9db7e8c19accf1bfb1aceeb.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/73b3965364d678dff01920628830e4c7.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 09, 2021, 05:03:48 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210409/8535560283d8731f25812bad5e066bba.jpg)
Post by: MIKE S on April 09, 2021, 05:52:05 PM
Post by: Spool on April 09, 2021, 05:57:48 PM
But will look for a new spacer on summit and get it in the mail to install very shortly after this week or so.
Thus the order would be, drum/housing, spacer, inner lock nut, 'locking tab', outer lock nut. Are there torque specs for the lock nuts?
Alright, I'm gonna bleed the brakes while I wait for confirmation on whether or not I'm good to go with the seals I currently have.
I got some clear tubing that I'll attach to the bleeder valve.
The other end of the clear tube will run through a plastic cap of an empty water bottle with a bit of DOT3.
I'll be sure to have the plastic tube submerged in the DOT 3 once inside the bottle.
From here, I'll proceed with gently pumping my brakes until the hose if full of DOT3 and absent of any air bubbles.
All the while checking my master cylinder for brake fluid levels.
After this, I'll set the drums and see how they fit with the shoes as I have them now...
(Huge job for me... Thank you all. I truly can't express how grateful I am to have you and be apart of this forum.)
I just thought of something... Do I need to bleed all the brakes, or just the two cylinders I swapped?
I also see online that you're supposed to bleed the brake furthest from the master cylinder first- so, I'll bleed the rear right, then the rear left.
After that, hopefully I can confirm if I need to bleed the front wheels too.
Post by: MIKE S on April 09, 2021, 06:27:00 PM
Post by: bd on April 09, 2021, 09:31:23 PM
I agree that the missing washer should be replaced. It functions as a thrust surface in the event that the inner race of the outer bearing rotates on the axle tube.
Post by: Spool on April 09, 2021, 10:23:23 PM
Thank you, BD.
In an optimistic sense, the seal is only 4 months old when the mechanic replaced my axle bearings.
In a pessimistic sense, that mechanic is awful and I should replace the seal.
In a realistic sense, I'd love to have it perfect, but I may be taking on too many new tasks I've never experienced at once while under a time restraint.
With all of that, I'd like to say the seal appears to be okay. It's not a work of art when I investigate it, but it also didn't catch my eye as a red flag in the last couple days. I looked at it a few times, and then more closely when Mike pointed out I should inspect it. The seal seems newish, with a thin black ring around it. No knicks, but not 100% even either. What does bother me is I can tell whoever placed it hammered it in without using a flat piece of wood to avoid little indents here and there. Overall, it seems okay, and I'm going to go with it for now. However, I can be a bit of a perfectionist at the wrong times- so it's probably good to use it now but add it to my list of things to replace.
Question: When/if the seal/bearings did start to go, what would I feel? How would I know?
Post by: Spool on April 09, 2021, 10:37:49 PM
Regarding Bleeding Brakes. Much harder than I thought it'd be.
I think my biggest problem is ensuring my clear hose is air tight on the bleed valve.
With the help of three or four YouTube videos, I took a shot at it, but I'm not comfortable and need to try again in the morning.
I started with the furthest brake line first, that being the right rear brake line.
1. Attached my wrench and then my hose.
2. Checked the brake fluid reservoir... my brake fluid is as dark as night :'(
3. I took an empty and dry plastic bottle, fed the other end of the tube into it through a hole in the cap while also drilling a second little air hole in the cap as well.
4. I submerged the end of the hose in a bit of clean brake fluid into the plastic bottle and placed it beside the wheel.
5. The hose is about 1.5ft long. The bottle is lower than the cylinder, but the hose arcs upwards from the cylinder before heading down to the bottle.
6. I opened the bleed valve and wedge a piece of wood between my seat and the brake pedal.
7. I closed the bleed valve and removed the wood.
8. I opened the bleed valve and wedged a piece of wood between my seat and the brake pedal.
9. I close the bleed valve and removed the wood.
10. This was repeated while checking my reservoir brake fluid levels.
11. My goal was to flush the dark and dirty brake fluid through, which was a success, and now I have clean brake fluid in this brake line.
12. My second goal was to pump the brake fluid all the way into the bottle to ensure 100% there was no air, which was a failure.
13. The air in the tube will sit at its highest point in the hose, which makes me think my hose at the bleed valve is not air-tight.
14. Is this necessary though? Do I need the brake fluid to clear the entire hose and into the bottle?
I struggled with this for three hours. (excuse me, I learned what I was doing was working for three hours.)
Questions:
Why do I have two brake fluid reservoirs?
Why is only the reservoir nearest the radiator 'taking' the brake fluid?
What am I doing wrong?
There was one scenario where I gave up on the bottle. I pulled the hose from the bottle and held the hose straight up above the cylinder.
With the bleed valve open, I just let the brake fluid rise to the top and spill out to the ground- thus having a hose with no air. - does this work as well?
Photo attached is clean brake fluid versus my murky brake fluid. (I wish the mechanic said, 'hey, you need new brake fluid.'
Post by: Spool on April 09, 2021, 10:53:57 PM
-I'm happy with how I assembled the new shoes/hardware on both sides. (Unless anyone sees any red flags.)
-I'm struggling to bleed the brakes, but this is the goal for tomorrow.
-Once the brakes are bled. I intend to mount my drums and begin adjusting my shoes for clearance. I understand the drum needs to just touch the shoes before adjusting the star adjuster a notch or two to ensure the drum can then spin completely free of the shoes to be at the proper 'setting.' After this, the brakes will set themselves when I brake in reverse later. (I'm sure this can be worded better, but this is the idea, correct?)
-After the drum and hub, (with the current seal,) I will place my inner lock nut, 'tab lock', outer lock nut.
-Question: Vile mentioned the lock nut torque specs were 120ft/lbs, is this for both inner and outer?
-Question: If I don't have the spacer on the passenger side, perhaps I should only snug the inner lock nut and torque the outer lock nut?
-I will then place my axel rods back in.
-Question: Is there a gasket needed here?
-I will snug down the axel bolts and lug nuts.
-Lower the truck and torque as follows:
---Lug nuts: 90ft/lb
---Axel bolts: 90ft/lb
From here, I will lower the truck and then take the journey of changing my differential oil.
(I know some may say, keep the truck lifted while you swap the diff, but I'm pretty comfortable with the hydraulic lift where it is on the pumpkin and just for my own inexperience, I'd feel more comfortable getting this truck back on the ground for now.)
-The filler bolt for my differential is not a T-55 like I thought. It actually looks like 1/2 socket fits right in there. Is this the right filler bolt?
-I noticed there's a hose coming off the top of the pumpkin and looks like it 'grounds' to the chassis- what is that about?
Guys... I said it before, but it's the utmost truth and worth repeating - You're all amazing. Thanks for your time. Appreciate you teaching me what you know and having patience with me as I learn.
Post by: Spool on April 09, 2021, 11:01:20 PM
The GM part number for the washer is 3663658. It is discontinued. There are plenty of dealers that still have it but unfortunately, there are none in your area. If you put the # on ebay there are some on there. But looks like you have to buy a bag. Maybe a member has an extra from a junk axle.
Post by: bd on April 10, 2021, 12:44:27 AM
Unless you are performing a gravity bleed, bleeding brakes involves two people, one to depress the brake pedal while the other opens and closes the bleeder valves in sequence. The dual reservoir is a safety feature. One reservoir supplies fluid to the front brakes while the other reservoir supplies fluid to the rear brakes. Dual reservoir master cylinders decrease the risk of complete brake failure if a leak develops either in the front or the rear.
It is fairly common for a 1/2" drive breaker bar (or ratchet if there is room) to fit the fill plug. Taper pipe plugs have a tendency to lock in place over time. When installing the plug after filling the axle with lubricant, snug the plug back into the hole but avoid cranking down on it too hard or you may not be able to remove it the next time you need to check the fluid level.
The hose attached to the top of the axle housing is a vent to the atmosphere for relieving housing pressure as the axle temperature fluctuates. Venting the housing prevents pressure buildup from pushing lubricant past the seals. In addition, the vent hose routes upward toward the bed to prevent water from being drawn into the housing and contaminating the lubricant in the event that the axle is submerged.
You are making good progress. Soon you'll be finished and filled with the satisfaction of new skills demonstrated by a job well done. 8)
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 10:10:13 AM
Thankfully I didn’t disrupt my brakes when attempting to bleed without the drums.
I’ll replace the order of my process today after I finish my job in a few hours.
I am a one man show at the moment- any idea why I can’t get my brake fluid past the highest point in the hose to press the fluid into and past the fluid I have in my capture bottle?
So, if I have two reservoirs, than I have “two brake systems” which is to say, I don’t need to bleed the front brakes at this moment?
Also, can I use a thin layer of white lithium grease on the bearing seal before carefully replacing the drum?
I know overloaded a few questions above, but if I can also confirm, the torque specs of locking rings, lug nuts, Axel bolts and if I need to place a gasket to the Axel tube against my hub?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk in
Post by: bd on April 10, 2021, 12:23:05 PM
...I am a one-man show at the moment- any idea why I can’t get my brake fluid past the highest point in the hose to press the fluid into and past the fluid I have in my capture bottle? Without an image of the configuration, I surmise that the bleed hose is looped in the shape of an upsidedown U. There may be an insufficient flow of fluid to displace the trapped air.
So, if I have two reservoirs, then I have “two brake systems” which is to say, I don’t need to bleed the front brakes at this moment? Correct. However, now would be a great time to flush the front brakes with fresh fluid, no? Bleed the front after the rear is completed.
Also, can I use a thin layer of white lithium grease on the bearing seal before carefully replacing the drum? Yes.
I know overloaded a few questions above, but if I can also confirm, the torque specs of locking rings, lug nuts, axle bolts, and if I need to place a gasket to the axle tube against my hub? Though I prefer gaskets, the gasket is optional. With careful preparation, you can substitute a silicone sealant (https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-81182-Gear-Gasket-Maker/dp/B0023GM2KK/ref=asc_df_B0023GM2KK/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=&hvpos=&hvnetw=o&hvrand=&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584276305064916&psc=1) for the gasket if you wish.
Excerpts from the 1973 Factory Service Manual:
BEARING ADJUSTMENT
Before checking bearing adjustment, make sure brakes
are fully released and do not drag.
Check bearing play by grasping the tire at the top and pulling
back and forth, or by using a pry bar under the tire. If
bearings are properly adjusted, movement of the brake drum
in relation to the brake flange plate will be barely noticeable
and the wheel will turn freely. If movement is excessive,
adjust the bearing as follows:
1. Remove the axle shaft and raise the vehicle until the
wheel is free to rotate.
2. Disengage the tang of retainer from the locknut and
remove both the locknut and retainer from the axle
housing tube.
3. Use the appropriate nut tool as listed for the specified
axle.
4. Tighten inner adjusting nut to the specified torque at
the same time rotating hub to make sure all bearing
surfaces are in contact. Then back off the inner nut
to the specified amount of turn-back.*
5. Install tanged retainer against the inner adjusting
nut. Align inner adjusting nut so short tang of the
retainer will engage the nearest slot on inner adjusting
nut.
6. Install outer locknut and tighten to correct specified
torque. Then bend long tang of the retainer into a slot of
the outer nut. This method of adjustment will result in
the proper bearing adjustment.
REAR DRIVE AXLE WHEEL BEARING ADJUSTMENT SPECIFICATIONS
Type of Bearing: tapered roller
Ring Gear Size: 10-1/2”
* Bearing Inner Adjusting Nut Torque with Wheel Rotating and Zero Brake Drag: 50 Ft-Lbs, then back off nut and retighten to 35 Ft-Lbs, then back off nut 1/4 turn. Install the retainer ring and outer locknut.
Outer Locknut Torque: 65 Ft-Lbs
Resulting Bearing Adjustment End-Play: 0.001 to 0.010"
MISCELLANEOUS TORQUE SPECIFICATIONS
Axle Flange Bolt Torque: 90 Ft-Lbs
Wheel Lug Nut Bolt Torque: 90-120 Ft-Lbs (9/16" studs)
APPROXIMATE FLUID CAPACITY
10-1/2" Ring Gear: 5.4 pints
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 12:46:41 PM
And yes, I agree, now is a great time to bleed the front brakes- but I'll finish the back end first before I add more to my list. Great to learn they are separate systems though.
Regarding the bearing adjustment.
When I shake the tire to check for bearing play, the tire is sitting freely with no bolts, or do I roughly assemble the axel tube, lug nuts and axel bolts when checking for bearing play?
Post by: bd on April 10, 2021, 01:01:14 PM
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 01:25:59 PM
I'll do this right after I figure out how to bleed my brakes properly.
Question regarding bleeding the brakes... If I can't get this gravity situation to work out, what of holding the tube vertically above the cylinder, leaving the bleeder open, and allowing the brake fluid to spill out the top with no air bubbles? Sufficient or misleading?
(I'm nearly done with my work, so I'll be heading out to the truck with all this new information in about an hour or so.)
Post by: bd on April 10, 2021, 01:29:20 PM
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 01:36:45 PM
I watched several youtube videos and went this method here from Chris Fix:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1NvtUwfRJc&t=318s
His 1 min process happens at 6:40 in the video.
I just noticed something though in his video, his brake fluid also stops at the highest point, and doesn't fill the entire tube from bleeder to bottle- yet he's still pushing the air clean through the hose. Perhaps, I was doing it correctly, but thought I needed the entire tube to be full of brake fluid from end to end to ensure success.
Post by: bd on April 10, 2021, 02:24:33 PM
...[I thought] I needed the entire tube to be full of brake fluid from end to end to ensure success.
Although not intuitive, that concept is not true. Static air in the drain tube is irrelevant. It is not part of the closed hydraulic system.
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 02:33:29 PM
Thus, I proceed as in the video, and have no air from the bleeder to highest point in the tube, I’ve successfully bled the brakes?
What if the situation I had earlier, where I scrapped the bottle and held the tube vertically with the bleeder open until the tube was full of brake fluid and 100% no air? Also successful or mid leading?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: bd on April 10, 2021, 02:39:55 PM
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 10, 2021, 02:44:48 PM
You are overcomplicating the process. "No air" means "No air".
In other words stop "Worrying the crap out us" ;D
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 03:11:14 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 03:13:15 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210410/3dd7c80ec02deb4fb9ae0bdfd384d675.jpg)
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 03:39:52 PM
Okay. That’s better.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 03:58:31 PM
Quick even touch of coarse emery cloth.
Hit it with some brake clean. (Not the bearings.)
Wiped dry.
Thin layer of white lithium grease on seal.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210410/cc10dfbf525085f92dff6eeb274cf00a.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210410/df644247f7771ed1a8b1ea03fb415d4e.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210410/198d6c199ed0da30b3e6848f8204a5b8.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: bd on April 10, 2021, 04:17:29 PM
STOP!!!
Wipe that gunk off!!
The face of that seal should be clean and dry! Smear lube around the black seal lips on the inside diameter of the seal. The seal lips contact the axle housing, not the seal face!
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 04:28:37 PM
(I’ll pull it off and wipe it clean.)
And apply the the white lithium on the inside diameter just before bearing.
In regards to the adjusting the shoes through the window. I backed off the drum just a bit to peek inside and found my shoes were just about a mm or two away from the drum. Good stuff?
Also when I’m done, do I need to poke the adjustment lever into place or will braking in reverse do that for me?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210410/1783ecb8455d8aac2bcc4abfa2ed03cd.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 04:38:26 PM
The concept of this seal just made sense...
I’ve been looking at the red lining around the steel, on the inside of the drum.
This black seal, is 110% healthy. Brand new and in great shape. Fullly confident in using it and now properly lubed!
Ha... thanks for that catch BD!(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210410/5f0246db64a8ef89e89fd59f2c7a27b5.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 04:54:34 PM
If in order for me to check bearing clearance properly, I need zero drag, than I should probably back off the adjuster so the drum turns completely free of the shoes.
Then, bleed the brakes.
Tighten my lock nuts.
Throw the tire on.
Check for bearing play.
Sound about right, right?
(Or am I over thinking again.)
Edit*** that’s exactly what I just end up doing.
Also, to note, either the drums are perfectly round or the shoes are just a little off center.
I can hear them slightly drag and then not when I turn on both sides.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: bd on April 10, 2021, 05:01:35 PM
2) Adjust the brakes.
3) Finish bleeding the brakes.
4) Test the pedal feel with it in the air.
5) Install the axles.
6) Fill the differential housing with lube.
7) Road test on a quiet street.
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 05:06:25 PM
I’ll do just that.
I’ll back off the shoes, assemble the inner locks and tabs as you specified before, pop the tire on and wiggle her around.
(Fingers crossed.)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: bd on April 10, 2021, 05:28:03 PM
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 05:30:25 PM
I’ll pop the tire off, and get those shoes to just barely drag before calling that a day and moving to the bleeding them.
Excellent.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: MIKE S on April 10, 2021, 06:02:38 PM
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 06:14:29 PM
Bleeding the brakes now. Zero air. Good. Good. Good.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210410/5dee4281b3ea17ed9692a88afa6f379d.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 06:28:15 PM
As far as adjusting the shoes. I’ve adjusted it so until I can just hear it drag ever so slightly at one point in the rotation and leave it at that.
Correct?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 06:34:55 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210410/8b84ece5ff42226289e8c09cd855ce77.jpg)
Post by: bd on April 10, 2021, 07:05:14 PM
BD, I accidentally switched 2 and 3, and bled the brakes before adjusting the shoes. Is this okay?
As far as adjusting the shoes. I’ve adjusted it so until I can just hear it drag ever so slightly at one point in the rotation and leave it at that.
Correct?
Yes, to both questions.
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 07:12:49 PM
Just cleaned everything up.
With that confirmation. I’m gonna tighten it up, add some diff fluid, lower her down and torque it up.
Take it in reverse two three times to ‘click’ the adjuster and then take it for a small drive on the secondary roads to see how it feels.
If I feels good. I’ll take it on the secondary roads.
If all goes well, tomorrow I’ll do the swap the differential oil and gasket along with flushing that bad brake fluid out of the front brakes.
Nice. Nice. Nice.
BD... thank you! You’ve made my learning curve less of a parabolic tangent into a more comfortable surf.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 07:19:35 PM
They’re about 6 inches from being flush.
{Ignore this. I ask too many questions sometimes.}
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 08:35:23 PM
So, started the truck and the brake pedal goes straight to the floor when the engine is on.
With that, I kept it in the driveway, but I need to push the pedal all the way do in order to stop.
Also, coming out of park into reverse and shifting into drive causes a quick jerk forwards or backwards.
Any ideas?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: bd on April 10, 2021, 08:45:17 PM
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 08:49:45 PM
Reservoirs are full.
I suppose I bled the brakes wrong?
I didn’t break my master cylinder with my trying to bleed my brakes for hours with the engine off did I?
The brake pedal is very loose, pretty much goes to the floor with hardly any resistance with the engine off.
If I turn the engine on, pedal goes straight to the floor.
If I turn the engine back off. I need to pump the brake two\three times before it becomes firm again.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: bd on April 10, 2021, 08:59:26 PM
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 09:20:22 PM
In the morning, I’ll lift her back up, and adjust the shoes further out.
So, having the pedal go to the floor with the engine on, could really just be a result of the shoes being too far from the drum?
The brake pedal barely gets stiffer if I continue to to pump.
Let me ask this though, just to try and rule out the worse case scenario- I didn’t harm my master cylinder or vacuum by depressing the brake so many times with the car off did I?
Strange the shifting of R/N/D is so jarring as well.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 10:35:37 PM
He then found that the wheel cylinder itself was pulling air in.
Link to video: https://youtu.be/tYYMoZGEzCc
Now, when I pushed my pistons into the wheel cylinder, I used quite a bit of force with my thumb to get it snug. Then pushed the the other side in and found the other side would pop out. So I lined them and at the same time, squeezed them hard in place. I could feel the wheel cylinder mechanism move when I did this.
In fact, when I installed the drivers side wheel cylinder, it wouldn’t fit at first, I had to push on the boots to get the inside mechanism to retract to be able to fit the wheel cylinder in place.
Any thoughts?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 11:03:10 PM
https://youtu.be/ag-Q_lP0dOk
In the video, he built the same apparatus with a clear tube and plastic bottle. Yet, he didn’t have any trouble getting the brake fluid to clear the height of the tube and proceed into the bottle. He also left the bleeder valve open and just continued to pump the brake. I didn’t do this.
I depressed the brake and held it with wood leveraged from the cab bench. Opened the valve. Closed the valve. And let off the brake. I continued to do this but could not get the brake fluid to clear the entire hose. I might have had the bleeder open too much-(allowing air back into the wheel cylinder.)
Today, I was more careful of not allowing air back into the wheel cylinder and only loosened the bleeder valve a half turn. But I did away with the bottle apparatus- and just suspended the clear tube vertically with an open end. Proceeded with the same order of operations as above and once all the air bubbles rose to the surface and I had a solid 6 inches of just brake fluid in the tube, I called it a day.
Any thoughts on this?
Perhaps I should do it exactly as done in this video. (I’ll need to walk somewhere and grab more brake fluid though.)
In the morning, I’m gonna try your first approach BD, and adjust the shoes further out. I’m still confused why the brakes sink with the engine on though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: bd on April 10, 2021, 11:15:17 PM
You haven't damaged anything. Don't let your imagination run wild with mystery. Keep a level head.
Check the brake adjustment: With the rear wheels off the ground, tighten the adjuster for one drum until you cannot rotate that wheel using both hands. Back the star wheel off in the opposite direction 20 - 25 "clicks." Recheck that wheel for rotation with a light brake drag. Repeat on the opposite side.
Pressure bleeding really works best with two people because there is better control over the fluid.
As an alternative, you can also try gravity bleeding. Verify that the master cylinder (m/c) is full of fluid. Top it off as needed but leave the m/c cover loose. Slip a drain tube over the right rear wheel cylinder bleed valve and anchor the free end of the tube in a large empty container. Open the bleed valve and let gravity draw fluid from the tube directly into the pan. Always keep the m/c at least half full, never letting it run dry! When totally clear, bubble free brake fluid discharges from the hose (allowing, perhaps, 20 or so minutes), close the bleed valve. Move to the left rear wheel cylinder and repeat the process. Be certain to never let the m/c run dry or you will have to start over. Diligence and patience are crucial when gravity bleeding.
Post by: Spool on April 10, 2021, 11:33:51 PM
Thanks for describing another approach to adjusting the shoes.
I'm hoping my reverse action this afternoon in the truck 'set' the adjustment lever.
Otherwise, I'm gonna have to roughly 'count' what I can see on the star wheel through the window of what would be 20-25 turns. If I look at a photo I have of the star adjuster, I count 15 teeth on half of it. So, I could turn the star adjuster 3/4 of the way when backing off.
Regarding bleeding the brakes, did you happen to watch the video I shared? It's done by 1Aauto and runs five minutes. It's very similar to the gravity method you just described, but the tube runs into a different source of brake fluid and they continually pump the brakes with the valve open. Curious to know your thought on that - (or just tell me, 'I don't wanna watch your video!') Either way, I gotta pick up another liter of brake fluid in the morning.
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 11, 2021, 12:43:02 AM
Turn it till it stops the drum from turning, then back it off till you have a little drag.
Over.
Post by: Spool on April 11, 2021, 12:49:36 AM
Running a count of clicks on the star adjuster is a baseline.Thanks Johnny.
Turn it till it stops the drum from turning, then back it off till you have a little drag.
Over.
And then backing the truck up and hitting the breaks, sets the adjuster lever, correct?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 11, 2021, 01:03:01 AM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: VileZambonie on April 11, 2021, 06:29:59 AM
*updated picture
Post by: MIKE S on April 11, 2021, 10:08:27 AM
That’s a better picture ;)
Post by: Spool on April 11, 2021, 10:17:44 AM
Vile, at the time of my message, I was unaware of how to proceed with only having one spacer (that being on the drivers side.)
The spacer I was speaking of is the top ring in the photo attached.
Since my message, we agreed here in the thread that I can proceed without it for now just to get the truck going, but that a spacer should be procured in the near future for the passenger side.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210411/7e22aa6ccf84141d3431953ffdb8c136.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: VileZambonie on April 11, 2021, 10:45:28 AM
Post by: Spool on April 11, 2021, 12:01:39 PM
Are you saying you are missing the thrust washer #6?I believe so, yes.
The part just behind the inner lock nut.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 11, 2021, 12:17:23 PM
Lifted and adjusted.
Too much hassle to work through the wheel, so I took those off and tightened the adjuster until I couldn’t move the drum freely.
I don’t hear clicks when I back off, so I backed off about 3/4 of a full rotation of the star adjuster itself.
I just turned the truck on to test the pressure in the brake pedal and it has significantly improved. Yet, not as tight as I would like it.
Should I,
A) tighten the adjust until I get my desired pressure on the pedal?
B) try bleeding the brakes again while the engine is running?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 11, 2021, 05:38:36 PM
I did both things I questioned earlier.
Good news- I have brakes.
Bad news- they squeak if I hit em hard.
Gonna back off the adjuster a bit and try again.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 11, 2021, 06:13:56 PM
Are you sure it's not your front brakes?
Disc brakes are more prone to squeak than rear drum brakes...
Post by: Spool on April 11, 2021, 07:22:37 PM
The drum brakes:
I kept doing test runs, where I would reverse and hit the brakes hard to see if it squeaked. Once I did that, they were more prone to squeak on normal stops. Is this a result of the adjuster over adjusting when I hit the brakes hard in reverse?
I took it home, lifted it, backed off the adjuster and repeated this process. Each time, the brakes were great, until I applied too much brake to stop on a dime, in which, they would be more prone squeak.
I repeated this until my brake pedal became too spongy for my liking. So I lifted it again and advanced the star adjuster about twenty clicks. Now, I have a nice brake pressure and I’m currently driving around a bit without doing the hard brake test that makes it prone to squeak. It brakes great, for now.
I also feel like the drums are indeed not round. I may be hearing things, or convincing myself or hearing things, but I feel like I can hear when the uneven part of the drum connects to a certain part of the shoes when braking slowly.
Any thoughts?
Edit** My jerky transmission shifting in/out of R/N/D has seemed to subside today.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 13, 2021, 05:22:57 PM
It's been three days and the truck still has brakes. Success.
Wanted to touch base about my thoughts of how the brakes feel a bit spongy. I may advance the star a bit more.
Wanted to follow up though about the potential squeakiness, because I know that if I hit the brakes hard, they will begin squeaking again.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 13, 2021, 06:20:37 PM
It would be weird, but the original mechanic thought he needed to 'turn' them, maybe that was why.
Or if you haven't trashed your old ones, look at them for the same sign.
If there is none, look at how your shoes are wearing. High spots? Or broad and even?
In theory, there should be no metal to metal contact, just brake shoe to iron, which under normal circumstances is quiet.
Post by: VileZambonie on April 13, 2021, 06:45:34 PM
Post by: Spool on April 13, 2021, 06:55:11 PM
Vile, I kept the drums for now, but as mentioned before, I feel like I can hear the unevenness in it when I turn it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: MIKE S on April 13, 2021, 09:02:24 PM
Post by: Spool on April 13, 2021, 09:39:46 PM
Well, this afternoon I decided my brakes were a little softer than I preferred.
So, I adjusted each side roughly 4 clicks and the pedal felt great, but the squeak came back after I went to the car wash.
Mmm.....
Maybe tomorrow, I'll adjust them backward 4 clicks.
Post by: MIKE S on April 13, 2021, 09:48:15 PM
Post by: Spool on April 13, 2021, 09:55:45 PM
Unless, the pressure from the shoes is causing the Axel to move because there’s no spacer?
(I’m blindly reaching on that one.)
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 13, 2021, 10:21:55 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 13, 2021, 10:28:22 PM
I’ve measured the drums (pep boys did and that was debatable.)
Thus, I’d we can confirm it’s not the shoes, then it’s the drums? But what about the drums needs to be inspected- that they aren’t perfectly round?
The strangest part to me is that it’s intermittent. If I back out of the driveway at 5mph they’ll barely squeak when I come to a complete stop. Then maybe they’ll squeak later, maybe not. I can’t seem to draw a connection to it other than I cannot brake heavily unless I’m willing to listen to it squeak.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 13, 2021, 10:35:30 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 13, 2021, 10:42:11 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spool on April 13, 2021, 11:26:38 PM
Measuring the inside diameter is different from measuring out of round.
I see. Well, I’m start pricing out new drums.
How would the drum go out of round? I watched a video on YouTube, I think Eric the car guy, where he showed the workings of the machine that widens the drum- it seemed like the only mistake you could make would be taking too much off.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 14, 2021, 12:57:15 AM
Post by: bd on April 14, 2021, 01:22:10 AM
Look. Brake shoe lining is a molded, porous, composite material composed of high friction particles in a binding matrix. Generally, brake shoes need to undergo a period of heat cycling from moderate use in order to fully cure and achieve a stable temper. Based on your narrative I suspect that the surfaces of the shoes glazed ever so slightly as a result of the repeated aggressive brake applications, initially. Hammering the brakes right out of the gate was a bad idea. Remember, I said to get a proper manual adjustment and not rely on the self-adjusters? Compounding the problem, the lining hasn't fully conformed to the drums yet. High spots on the lining are doing all the braking, which requires a little more pedal pressure. This is one reason, besides ensuring concentricity, that brake drums are machined when replacing shoes. The roughened drum surfaces accelerate the seating and conditioning of the shoes with normal braking.
Post by: VileZambonie on April 14, 2021, 09:36:46 AM
Quote
Vile, I kept the drums for now, but as mentioned before, I feel like I can hear the unevenness in it when I turn it.
Drums not only out of round but tapered or bell mouthed will cause the shoes to lift and vibrate, hence your squeal. Looks like you did two things that need addressing. Replace the missing thrust washer and replace or machine the drums.
Post by: bd on April 14, 2021, 09:46:15 AM
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 14, 2021, 09:59:52 AM
Spool, if you're not familiar with those terms, the shoes should wear flat, or square with the inner surface of the drum. In some cases, that wear pattern can be distorted by various factors and result in a irregular wearing inside the drum. New "square" shoe will be affected adversely until they adapt to the irregular surface inside the drum.
In all fairness to the drums, if they are within tolerance, the culprit may lie in their being tapered, bell mouthed per VZ, or glazed smooth. I recall some pics that showed that.
Were this my truck, I would have them checked for being round, square, and then have them machined to cut the glaze and reinstalled.
Paired with new, albeit HD shoes, and mild braking until they are acclimated per the bd'ster, you should get them to behave.
Post by: MIKE S on April 14, 2021, 12:37:02 PM
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 14, 2021, 04:49:26 PM
Good points on new products.
Post by: VileZambonie on April 15, 2021, 06:30:53 AM
That's reasonable. But how do you prevent a recurrence? Replacing the drums will increase drum mass which will alter the harmonics. Even if drums are perfectly round and concentric when first installed, what prevents them from distorting with repeated heat cycles? This isn't to argue with your statement but how do you ensure long-term reliability?
Drum brakes are like a high maintenance girlfriend always needing attention. ;D Clean and adjust for optimum performance. Shoes vibrating resonates through the drum, so make sure they do not vibrate and they will not create the harmonic. I have never had drum brake noise not be solved with good cleaning and proper lubrication, good hardware, proper adjustment, and a properly finished surface. Let's ASSume the measurements he got on the drums were correct, they should have been resurfaced or replaced at that point. Since he can't find someone competent in his area to properly refinish drums (this is quite disturbing), the next best option is replacement.
Post by: Spool on April 18, 2021, 10:58:13 AM
Johnny, you had mentioned the drums may be out of round causing the shoes to squeak against the backing plate. This makes sense to me. When I was adjusting the shoes/turning the drum to the point where I was unable to turn it anymore, to then back off 25 clicks, I could feel that at one point of my full drum rotation that there was contact with the shoe- leading me to believe that the drum was in fact not round. So, perhaps this is it.
Someone else mentioned maybe the drums still had glaze. I kept the old drums for now as to not have to bother with trying to press out the old hub and press the new hub into new drums. That, and the drums were still within legal wear according to the measure I received at PepBoys. However, I did score the inside the of the drums with a coarse emery cloth before installing placing them again.
Now, Mike mentioned that new products aren't made like they used to be. With that I didn't score the brake shoes themselves, I merely set the hardware as best I could to represent the reference photos I had and then confirmed here on the forum. Hit it with some brake cleaner (no the backing plate landings which had white lithium grease on them) and then reinstalled the drums. As Vile, mentioned, the drums will need a lot of attention to get it perfect.
Lastly, BD mentioned how my brakes aren't squeaking due to them being out of round, but they are squeaking due to resonance. This makes perfect sense to me. At the moment, when my brakes do squeak, they are singing as loud as an opera! After driving for about 5 days now, I can draw one conclusion- they appear to squeak after I drive/brake for about 15 minutes. Mind you, that 15 minutes, is usually stop and go traffic, so I believe the rear brakes begin to squeak after they heat a bit due to friction.
In conclusion, it sounds like I made a dire mistake in 'testing' my brakes my hammering on them to see if they worked.
Further more, it sounds like I should obtain my spacer behind the inner lock nut first and fore most.
1. Take the drums off.
2. Confirm the shoes are still properly in place.
3. Sand the surface of the shoe landings with emery cloth and the same with the drums.
4. Hit with brake clean.
5. Place the drums, adjust till I can no longer rotate the tire, and back off 25 notches again.
6. Drive with the brakes, yet do not hammer on them.
7. Give it a bit of time for the shoes to adjust to the drums.
After this, if the problem persist, I'm to find a proper machinist to either
a) machine the drums to ensure roundness or b) replace the drums entirely.
Would you guys agree with this?
Post by: JohnnyPopper on April 24, 2021, 11:18:46 AM
REAR DRIVE AXLE WHEEL BEARING ADJUSTMENT SPECIFICATIONS
Type of Bearing: tapered roller
Ring Gear Size: 10-1/2”
* Bearing Inner Adjusting Nut Torque with Wheel Rotating and Zero Brake Drag: 50 Ft-Lbs, then back off nut and retighten to 35 Ft-Lbs, then back off nut 1/4 turn. Install the retainer ring and outer locknut.
Outer Locknut Torque: 65 Ft-Lbs
Resulting Bearing Adjustment End-Play: 0.001 to 0.010"
MISCELLANEOUS TORQUE SPECIFICATIONS
Axle Flange Bolt Torque: 90 Ft-Lbs
Wheel Lug Nut Bolt Torque: 90-120 Ft-Lbs (9/16" studs)
APPROXIMATE FLUID CAPACITY
10-1/2" Ring Gear: 5.4 pints
[/quote]
bd would this bearing adjustment apply to front bearings on a K10?
Post by: Spool on May 01, 2021, 11:53:46 AM
Hope all has been well with you. Been a little distracted from the truck these past two weeks.
My wife flew into LA after four months apart - (she's Austrian and pandemic severely bottlenecked out residency card processes to live abroad- so we travel to and fro at the moment.)
Anyway- Small update.
Last week, I placed the the spacer behind the inner lock nut that I didn't have on the passenger side.
Also, took off the cover for the pumpkin, drained the gear oil, replaced the gasket and filled her back up. Fun job and first gasket I ever replaced! Good stuff.
The squeaky brakes have been less squeaky lately, so I've been riding them out to see how they behave.
I believe, I can say with confidence, that they only squeak when the temp in LA rises above 80F- am I crazy?
They've been behaving pretty well, so I figured if they start misbehaving, then I'll take it apart and proceed with sanding down the shoe and drum a bit more.
Thoughts?
Okay. Thank you all for for the great info. Allow me to address many of your points into one cohesive post to see if we can collectively come to a new point.
Johnny, you had mentioned the drums may be out of round causing the shoes to squeak against the backing plate. This makes sense to me. When I was adjusting the shoes/turning the drum to the point where I was unable to turn it anymore, to then back off 25 clicks, I could feel that at one point of my full drum rotation that there was contact with the shoe- leading me to believe that the drum was in fact not round. So, perhaps this is it.
Someone else mentioned maybe the drums still had glaze. I kept the old drums for now as to not have to bother with trying to press out the old hub and press the new hub into new drums. That, and the drums were still within legal wear according to the measure I received at PepBoys. However, I did score the inside the of the drums with a coarse emery cloth before installing placing them again.
Now, Mike mentioned that new products aren't made like they used to be. With that I didn't score the brake shoes themselves, I merely set the hardware as best I could to represent the reference photos I had and then confirmed here on the forum. Hit it with some brake cleaner (no the backing plate landings which had white lithium grease on them) and then reinstalled the drums. As Vile, mentioned, the drums will need a lot of attention to get it perfect.
Lastly, BD mentioned how my brakes aren't squeaking due to them being out of round, but they are squeaking due to resonance. This makes perfect sense to me. At the moment, when my brakes do squeak, they are singing as loud as an opera! After driving for about 5 days now, I can draw one conclusion- they appear to squeak after I drive/brake for about 15 minutes. Mind you, that 15 minutes, is usually stop and go traffic, so I believe the rear brakes begin to squeak after they heat a bit due to friction.
In conclusion, it sounds like I made a dire mistake in 'testing' my brakes my hammering on them to see if they worked.
Further more, it sounds like I should obtain my spacer behind the inner lock nut first and fore most.
1. Take the drums off.
2. Confirm the shoes are still properly in place.
3. Sand the surface of the shoe landings with emery cloth and the same with the drums.
4. Hit with brake clean.
5. Place the drums, adjust till I can no longer rotate the tire, and back off 25 notches again.
6. Drive with the brakes, yet do not hammer on them.
7. Give it a bit of time for the shoes to adjust to the drums.
After this, if the problem persist, I'm to find a proper machinist to either
a) machine the drums to ensure roundness or b) replace the drums entirely.
Would you guys agree with this?