Author Topic: Replacing my Coolant Hoses, Thermostat, and Heater Core.  (Read 7371 times)

Offline Spool

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Replacing my Coolant Hoses, Thermostat, and Heater Core.
« on: June 20, 2018, 09:18:18 PM »
Hey all.
73' C20 here.

Been a bit crazy this spring with work and school, yet it's finally time to repair my coolant system.

I have:
-a leak near the thermostat.
-a leak from what I'd imagine to be my heater-core; you can see it's wet sometimes if you pull the rug up.
-swollen hoses through-out that are in-need of replacement with some fresh good looking ones.
(It would also be wise to finally purchase a coolant reservoir as well.)

With all of this, I began researching online as to the parts and process as to not just start this thread cold before asking for help.
But I would like to ask what everybody thinks about flushing the system before taking on this job?

This video about flushing your coolant system seems to be straight-forward and informative: https://youtu.be/s--5ft5YiHg
It's a 20 minute video, so here is list of the steps:

0. He pours a Coolant Flush and Cleaner into his system 100miles before he's ready to begin flushing.
1. Releases radiator petcock to drain existing coolant.
2. Removes the thermostat temporarily and reattaches upper radiator hose and petcock.
3. Fills system with distilled water and an additional Coolant Flush and Cleaner.
4. Runs the truck for 10 minutes with the heat on.
5. Allows it to cool and then drains the system again.
(Repeat to clean: observing the color of the water when you pull the petcock.)

My idea is I can do steps 1 thru 5 to clean the system before replacing my thermostat/gasket, hoses and heatercore.

Any pros or cons to this method?
Thanks guys!

(Attached are some pictures of the current condition.)

Offline 75gmck25

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Re: Replacing my Coolant Hoses, Thermostat, and Heater Core.
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2018, 05:05:09 AM »
Coolant flushing has been around for years, and the process has never changed much.  His video is probably as good as any other.  However, I'm not crazy about introducing new chemicals into my engine unless they really work, and I don't know how well the commercial chemicals break up the crud in the cooling system.  The most stopped up area is usually the radiator tubes, and it takes a lot to break up all the corrosion that is in there.

If it was my truck, I would first replace all those swollen hoses, and put on new clamps, leaving the thermostat out initially.  Then follow the directions on the radiator flush and let it work on the corrosion in the radiator and the rust in the engine. Run through a couple of clear water flush cycles and get all the crud out.  If you really want to get it out of the block, unscrew the two block drains (one on each side of the engine below the exhaust manifolds) and run water into the thermostat housing while water drains out the bottom.  When you buy a new thermostat, get a high flow 195 degree thermostat.  Do not make the mistake of buying a low temp thermostat because you think it will reduce overheating - it will just screw up your winter heat, and not solve summer overheating problems.

There are other online articles that explain how to replace the heater core on a square body, which is moderately difficult.    There are a couple of bolts hidden up under inner fender cover, and they are easier to reach if you unbolt the inner fender first.  Its also a little challenging to get the plastic housing bolted back into place from the inside, since you are working against firewall insulation while trying to bolt it on from the engine compartment.   However, its a lot more complicated job on many other vehicles.

Bruce

Offline Henry

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Re: Replacing my Coolant Hoses, Thermostat, and Heater Core.
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2018, 12:00:49 PM »
Hi Spool:
What does your radiator look like? Do you see any signs of exterior weeping or corrosion? When you look down the filler, what does the it look like inside the core tubes?...you may have to let some fluid out to see the top core tubes. What does your water temp gauge read? The reason I ask these questions is that usually when the heater core starts leaking and the thermostat housing is leaking, and the hoses are getting old, the radiator is due for a professional cleaning and/or repair as well. I have gone through the exercise of flushing and parts replacement just to have to replace the radiator 6 months later anyway. The flushing kits you buy just dont have the good strong and harsh chemicals to really clean out the radiator. If you have a block of rust growing in the radiator somewhere, the flush kits you can buy will not remove it.

If you dont know the age of the radiator and any of the above inspections indicate a problem, I would first spend money on having the radiator cleaned, inspected, and pressure tested...while the radiator is out, you can then work on removing the heater core (big job in itself) and taking the rest of the stuff off and flushing the block with just fresh water.

Regards,
Henry

Offline Spool

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Re: Replacing my Coolant Hoses, Thermostat, and Heater Core.
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2018, 09:05:25 PM »
Thank you guys!
My apologizes... I didn't think anyone had responded, but it seems I had forgot the notify button of my post.

75gmck25, Why should I get a thermostat with a high flow of 195F other than the seasons?
Or rather, is that an appropriate thermostat for my 5.7L 350, 4Barrel engine?

Henry, I've concluded exactly what you said and would like to ask what you recommend as far as radiator replacement with a couple things in mind.
Down the road, I will like to install AC in my truck. Will getting a 3-row or 4-row radiator be superior or sufficient for a future AC system?

I notice most aluminum 3 or 4 row radiators are silver in color. Aesthetically speaking, is there a company that makes a black aluminum radiator?
OER makes a Copper/Brass 4row that is black and looks super sharp, but it's twice the price at $486.

BD, had posted this super informative page years ago that I found super useful as well:
http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?topic=26681.msg222327#msg222327

Thanks guys!
(And sorry for the delay, I didn't think anyone responded.)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 09:20:43 PM by Spool »

Offline Henry

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Re: Replacing my Coolant Hoses, Thermostat, and Heater Core.
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2018, 10:34:09 AM »
Hi Spool:
My recommendation on a radiator is to stick with the design you have, even if it is a 2-row. My opinion is that the 3-row and 4-row are for heavy duty applications such as wreckers, commercial applications, or high compression hot rodded engines, and have more cooling capacity than you will ever need, even with air conditioning. Furthermore, the fitment of a radiator that is larger than the one you have can be problematic. I am assuming the radiator you have fits properly right now and is the OEM design. Even going from a 2-row to a 3-row, the thickness of the radiator will cause a problem with the attachment of the fan shroud, upper radiator mount, and the size of the lower rubber isolators...you will have to make modifications. For example, I decided many years ago to install a standard 4-row radiator in place of my standard 3-row radiator because I did some periodic heavy towing and hauling. My truck is a stock C-20 with A/C. It made no difference on the temp gauge or the performance of the engine. My stock lower rubber isolators did not fit (had an almost impossible time finding bigger ones), the lower fan shroud clips missed the lower frame attachment (had to make custom clips), and the upper radiator attachment is tight and has to be forced. I also had to clearance (bang away) at the interior bodywork to make sure it did not contact the cooling tubes in certain places on the sides of the radiator. Just that tiny increase in thickness caused all these problems. As long as your truck has a close to stock performing engine, and it originally had a 2-row radiator, you should be fine with it even with air conditioning. An aluminum radiator will give you insignificant change in cooling performance. Now, it is possible your truck originally came with a 3-row radiator because it is a C-20 and later on someone replaced it with a 2-row for matter of economics...you can inspect the current fitment at the places I have mentioned and see if you have a little bit of clearance to go thicker...but I would definitely not go wider or taller than stock.

195F thermostat is standard for older Chevys than ours and going to a lower temp one doesnt do anything but cause problems on a stock or slightly modified engine.

The stock cooling systems designed by GM for their trucks were excellent designs and did not need any improvements for stock applications...all the millions of aftermarket parts and improvement items are only needed for highly modified engines or race cars pumping out a lot of power and heat. Most of these parts are just bling and a waste of money and dont last as long as OEM designs anyway.

Regards,
Henry

Offline bd

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Re: Replacing my Coolant Hoses, Thermostat, and Heater Core.
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2018, 12:17:09 PM »
Thomas, whether a larger core is of any advantage depends largely on where the truck is operated and the ambient summer temperatures experienced.  For example, a truck operating in the desert SW will experience substantially higher summer temperatures that remain persistent for extended periods than a truck operating in the NE or NW or Canada.  Summer temperature extremes in Los Angeles generally crowd 100° F with occasional spikes.  That is easily within the heat rejection capacity of a two-row radiator as long as the cooling system is otherwise in good health and block sedimentation is minimal.  Nonetheless, if you are considering a thicker radiator, speak with a local radiator shop that may be able to swap the tanks from your existing radiator onto a thicker core.  This will minimize fitment issues, although minor interference issues still may occur between the fan shroud and core. 

Perhaps more important than the number of rows is fin density.  The majority of heat rejection occurs from airflow across the fins rather than the tubes.  Whereas more and/or wider tubes provide greater contact between fins and tube walls, it is airflow across the fins that draws the majority of heat away from the radiator, allowing the fins to sink the heat originating from the tubes.  Place two radiators side-by-side that share similar materials, core thicknesses and row counts, yet vary significantly in price and you are likely to observe a notable difference in fin density.  So, when replacing a radiator, never downgrade from the existing fin density, measured in fins per inch, or you may worsen your circumstances and experience a disappointing surprise. 

Regarding aluminum radiators, the aesthetic and cooling advantages of expensive aluminum radiators can be short lived if electrolysis occurs.  Electrolysis can turn an aluminum radiator into a lawn sprinkler inside of a year. 

So whatever course you decide upon, buyer beware!
Rich
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In other words... if people learn by making mistakes, by now I should know just about everything!!!
87 R10 Silverado Fleetside 355 MPFI 700R4 3.42 Locker (aka Rusty, aka Mater)

Offline Spool

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Re: Replacing my Coolant Hoses, Thermostat, and Heater Core.
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2018, 01:54:55 PM »
Thank you guys.

Here are a few notes on my current situation:

-My water temp is usually 200.
210 when I shut the engine off, 200 when I drive/idle.

-I was unable to find the dimensions of my radiator in the service manual, but the dimensions I measured are about:
Width: 33 1/4'' - 33 1/2''
Depth: 2 7/8'' - 3''
Height: 19''

-The service manual did make mention of having a cross flow system where the illustration shows 4 rows of arrows depicting the direction of coolant.
(Image attached.)

-There is some rust and bent fins on my current radiator.
(Image attached.)


Here are my take-away's from this thread so far, please correct me if I'm mistaken:

-Thermostat replacement should be a 'high flow 195F'
-It's best to replace my radiator with the same model/same dimensions I have now to ensure proper fitting while acknowledging my needs aren't large for extreme cooling.
-A 2 row radiator in Los Angeles with temperatures ranging from 80-100 in the summer and 60-80 in the winter will suffice.
-A 2 row radiator will be sufficient in such LA temperatures even when I decide to install an AC next spring and/or ever need to load my 3/4ton or tow a trailer.
-Don't downgrade fins per inch upon replacing my radiator.
-Aluminum will not offer any superior benefits from the steel/alloy I currently have.

Questions:
-How to I determine if my current radiator is original?
-How do I determine how many rows my current radiator has?
-Will a 3 row be proactive in avoiding heat rejection when I eventually install an AC or need to fully load/tow a trailer on future hot days that reach 90F-100F?
-How do I count a fin per inch correctly; is it one cycle or a half? (Image attached.)
-Should I also consider replacing my water pump?

Much appreciated.
-Thomas

Offline Henry

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Re: Replacing my Coolant Hoses, Thermostat, and Heater Core.
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2018, 08:40:48 AM »
Hi Spool:
Your water temp sounds fine.

GM service manuals have very little info about identifying what you have or the specifications of components...they just tell you how to fix what you are supposed to have. Trying to identify if you have the original design in your truck is going to take a little bit of work...first off, if the fitment appears good with the upper brace, lower clips, fan shroud, this is a good indication. 2nd, does your radiator have the integral auto transmission cooler?...this would be two threaded ports on the passenger side radiator tank below the filler...this is OEM. Third, can you find a little metal tag somewhere on the radiator?...this indicates the manufacturer, and I think the original manufacturer was Modine....they used a stylized "M" on the tag with a serial number following it. Fourth, the number of fins: I cannot be of help here, but a good radiator shop should have a old book of OEM part numbers for GM with fin specs and sizes etc...if you cannot find this, give me a e-mail shot and I can go to my shop who I know have this book...maybe BD knows.

Your take-aways are all correct: Yup, 195F thermostat is what the doc ordered...will allow cooling just as well as a lower temp one....lower temp ones simply open faster which does not allow your engine to warm up properly. Your mediterranean climate in LA is easy on engines.

Yes, if the current radiator is on the way out (has leaks and has blocks of rust inside that cannot be removed), it would be proactive to get a 3-row OEM replacement radiator if it does not create fit problems and is reasonably priced in comparison to a 2-row replacement. From your temp readings and photos it appears to be OK, but outside appearances can be deceiving. I once took my car radiator to a shop to be cleaned and it had a huge block of rust that could not be removed...water temp was fine and cooling was fine....but at some time that block would have broken free and caused a catastrophic problem, if not a slow degradation.

Those guys at Classic Industries have a huge selection of the OEM designs and you can probably see if yours is there...you could probably also ask them what their fin spacing is on their OEM replacements.

Is your water pump leaking?...they have a weep hole at the bottom of the unit that drips to let you know when they are starting to go south...if it is dry, the pump is still OK. OEM style water pumps are not that expensive so if your are going to do a radiator removal and general cooling system cleaning you can replace it at the same time...go with the OEM and cast iron...all the aftermarket "high flow" designs are unneccesary and aluminum will just cause galvanic problems as BD has mentioned.

Regards,
Henry

Offline Henry

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Re: Replacing my Coolant Hoses, Thermostat, and Heater Core.
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2018, 09:12:07 AM »
Hi Spool:
BTW: the photos you included on your last post show that you have the OEM one piece fan shroud...dont let that thing go or try to replace it with another one such as a two piece shroud or another one piece of different part number! Your shroud is important to cooling system fitment and these one piece C-20 shrouds are not available anymore...even if yours has cracks, just repair them. Also there is a 3rd top attachment screw on the inside of the duct at center where fan blades are...hard to get to and is not seen as other screws are.
Regards,
Henry

Offline Henry

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Re: Replacing my Coolant Hoses, Thermostat, and Heater Core.
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2018, 10:43:44 AM »
Hi Spool:
When you measure a radiator, you measure the core...the finned area and not the side tanks. So length, width, height is just the finned areas. Thickness can be determined by pushing a wire through the fins and then measuring the wire length. Actually, Classic Ind does not have the 2-row OEM radiators....Brothers out of Corona should have a competitively priced selection of 2 and 3 row OEMs in brass (tanks and tubes) and copper (fins) and they have the dimensions you can compare yours with. For a REAL confirmation of what you have or need you need to see that book that the radiator shop has to see what the side tank dimensions are. Also, you need to be aware that some tanks had a heater hose fitting and some did not.
Regards,
Henry

Offline bd

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Re: Replacing my Coolant Hoses, Thermostat, and Heater Core.
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2018, 01:22:43 PM »


^^^^ More like 16 FPI

-Will a 3 row be proactive in avoiding heat rejection when I eventually install an AC or need to fully load/tow a trailer on future hot days that reach 90F-100F?

Heat rejection represents the amount of heat dissipated to the air flowing across the radiator fins and is a good thing, not something to avoid.  Fin density, tube cross-sections and airflow remaining equal, a three-row radiator will dissipate more heat than a two-row radiator.  Earlier I stated that a two-row core will provide adequate cooling for a stock 350 engine.  This was not to imply that your truck should have a two-row radiator.  Your truck should have, at the minimum, what it was engineered to have from the factory.

To determine the number of rows in the existing radiator core, while the engine is cold, remove the radiator cap and look down into the tank using a flashlight.  Count the number of tube ends exposed in the core head plate, in a horizontal line from front to back.
Rich
It's difficult to know just how much you don't know until you know it.
In other words... if people learn by making mistakes, by now I should know just about everything!!!
87 R10 Silverado Fleetside 355 MPFI 700R4 3.42 Locker (aka Rusty, aka Mater)

Offline Henry

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Re: Replacing my Coolant Hoses, Thermostat, and Heater Core.
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2018, 12:16:57 PM »
Hi Spool:
Reviewing your photos, I see that your heater hose return line goes to the top of the water pump. This was standard for trucks that did not have A/C and had the 2-row radiator. Yet, another photo shows that you have a radiator with the heater return connection right below the radiator filler which is standard for trucks with A/C. Where does this hose go from this connection on your truck? This leads me to believe that your 2-row radiator is not the original 2-row radiator it came with...the original did not have this connection. Besides, I cannot imagine the original radiator surviving this many years even being well maintained.

The same photo that shows the heater return line on the water pump also shows your fan blades exposed quite far to the rear of your fan shroud...I think you are missing a spacer that goes between the water pump and the fan which would move the blades under shroud. I am not very knowledgeable on this, so I would encourage others opinions on this. Also, do you have the fan clutch (thermostat) installed on your fan?...it is mounted on the front of the fan just behind the radiator under the shroud.

Getting back to the radiator, I think the standard way to gauge fins is counting each blade of metal...ideally the radiator would be lots of perfectly vertical sheet metal blades but the manufacturing is too difficult, so the blades end up being slanted and all connected together looking like a sinusoidal wave. I measured mine and it is about 8 fins per inch...this is only half of yours, but I think it is supposed to be half because my radiator is about twice as thick as yours (4-row vs 2-row) and if my fin density was the same then the fan would not be able to pull the air through such a thick and dense restriction. From the close up photo of the filler, it appears that the rubber isolator under the top radiator bracket fits pretty well so I think your OEM radiator was 2-row. If you finally make the decision to go 3-row, you most likely will need to buy a set of new rubber isolators as the thickness of the side tanks are probably going to be more than the 2-row. (4 isolators per installation)....the rubber isolators have a nice curve fit to the tank seams to hold it in place perfectly and isolate it from engine vibrations and allow it to float as it heats up and cools down.

Concerning your overflow bottle, your 73 bottle should be a different design than all the later squarebodies...you should have a bracket down there that the bottle sits on...is the bracket still there? The later bottles attach to the forward valence directly and I dont think you have the same hole pattern to accomodate the later bottles.

Regards,
Henry 

Offline Spool

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Re: Replacing my Coolant Hoses, Thermostat, and Heater Core.
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2018, 01:13:53 AM »
Thanks guys.

In determining whether or not I have the original radiator:
I'll take a look at my radiator on the passenger side to see if I have to two threaded ports in identifying an integral auto transmission cooler.
I've never noticed a manufacturing tag on the radiator before, and it appears I have 16 fins per inch on my radiator.
I would say everything looks like it fits nicely, except for the fan shroud; however, Henry, you mentioned it appears to be the original 1 piece shroud?
My fan shroud has been cracked on the bottom since I purchased the truck and in taking the shroud off as I have before, I thought it was intentionally cracked just to fit as it's very cumbersome installing and removing with the fan blades. It's a significant crack by the way, 4 inches at least.
Also there is a 3rd top attachment screw on the inside of the duct at center where fan blades are...hard to get to and is not seen as other screws are.
Henry, I'm sorry but I'm a bit confused by this, what does this 3rd top attachment screw to?
If this is in regards to my shroud, my shroud is currently held in place with 4 screws; one in each corner.



3Row Radiator Replacement:
I'll give the guys at Classic Industries and Brothers a call and see what's available for my truck.
I'd like to stay away from Brass or Copper due to it's color and price.
Something cast iron/steel/black would be ideal at this moment of my understanding and desire for the look of the truck.

Measuring my Radiator:
Thank you Henry for correcting me.
I accidentally measured the tanks as well as the finned area.
I'll remeasure for accurate dimensions.

Row Count:
Thanks BD, I'll take a peak inside and count how many tube ends I can see.

Heater Hose:
Reviewing your photos, I see that your heater hose return line goes to the top of the water pump. This was standard for trucks that did not have A/C and had the 2-row radiator. Yet, another photo shows that you have a radiator with the heater return connection right below the radiator filler which is standard for trucks with A/C. Where does this hose go from this connection on your truck?

The hose in the photo is actually plugged; it doesn't go anywhere and is only a couple inches long.

Overflow bottle:
I do have a square like bracket between my radiator and battery, where the bottle should be.
I've never had one, since I've owned the truck.

Water Pump:
I don't believe my water pump is leaking, but will have to clean the area free of messy coolant to determine if it is or not.
My mention of replacing the water pump was only because everything else in the coolant system will be replaced soon.

Fan Clutch Thermostat and Spacing.
Henry, What does a fan clutch thermostat look like?
And when you speak of my spacing, are you saying my fan blades should sit further into my shroud?

Thanks for everything guys.

Offline Henry

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Re: Replacing my Coolant Hoses, Thermostat, and Heater Core.
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2018, 11:26:16 AM »
Hi Spool:
Radiator: Your existing radiator is brass/copper...it is just painted black...all brass/copper radiators are painted black...it is the way they all are. That plugged port on yours is for hot water return from heater on A/C models. Non A/C models had it at the water pump as you do...when you buy a water pump, a threaded plug is usually supplied with the pump so you can choose to use it or not. My truck has the threaded plug in the water pump so I use the radiator port.

Overflow bottle: that is good that you have the original bracket still there...if it was missing you would have trouble mounting any water bottle...be sure to order the 1973 bottle.

Fan shroud: maybe you have a different design shroud than me...I am aware of at least 3 different designs (and different top retainer plates). Mine has three screws across the top and two clips at the bottom. The 3 screws at the top are all threaded into the top radiator retainer plate which has clip nuts...two at the top corners and one in the top middle which is accessed from inside the shroud...you have to get your head down by the fan and look forward inside the shroud. Your fan shroud is probably cracked because it is too tight to remove it without removing the fan first. You can call me one night if you want to talk through it as it can be confusing trying to explain it all by writing.

Fan spacer: Yes, I am saying the blades of the fan should be completely inside the fan shroud. The spacer is sandwiched between the water pump flange and fan mounting flange.

Fan clutch/ thermostat: the fan clutch is a aluminum disc shaped device that attaches to the front of the 4 fan mounting screws. It is about 1/3 the diameter of the fan blades...you can google it to see what it looks like as they all look the same.

Water pump: even if your engine is dirty and gunked up, if your fan weep hole was leaking you would have a puddle of anti-freeze under your truck every night...if you dont then it is not leaking. If I did not know how old my water pump was AND I was going to remove the radiator and heater core AND change out all the hoses then I would replace the pump because it probably has a lot of miles on it and would start leaking not too long after you fixed everything else in your cooling system...once the radiator is out the water pump is inexpensive and easy to replace.

Regards,
Henry


Offline Spool

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Re: Replacing my Coolant Hoses, Thermostat, and Heater Core.
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2018, 01:09:09 AM »
For someone who doesn't have children, I sure can't seem to find the time...
It makes me wonder what that road will be like.

Thank you, Henry, for your response.
After a second look, I stand corrected as my fan shroud does in fact have three screws above and two clips below.
Fan Spacer... is this necessary? If so, may I trouble you for the process?
After inspecting my water pump, I see no signs of leaks.


BD,
I was unable to identify any rows in my radiator when looking in the filler. Picture attached.

--------

I had the chance of going back to retake my measurements.

Radiator:
29" W
18" L
1 3/4" D

Top Radiator Hose to Housing Temp: 24 1/2" long, 4.5cm Diameter.
Bottom Radiator Hose to Water Pump: 21" long, 5cm Diameter.
Top Heater Core Hose to block: 36" long, 2.5cm Diameter.
Bottom Heater Core Hose to Water Pump: 33" long, 2.5cm Diameter.

--------------

I'm looking to purchase the following items but am having a bit of trouble knowing what's best, suitable and well built.
Does anyone have any advice for parts on a 73 C20 350 4BL?

195 Thermostat
Radiator : 2 or 3 Row, At least 14FPI (I'd like something suitable but capable of an AC down the road.)
4 Hoses- Upper/Lower and 2 for the Heatercore
Water Pump
Overflow tank.

Thanks guys.



« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 01:13:15 AM by Spool »