73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Engine/Drivetrain => Topic started by: LTZ C20 on July 17, 2015, 02:17:43 PM
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Hey all, suddenly my truck is having issues when I start it. I wanted to throw this out here incase some of the more experienced engine guys have seen and found or know of a solution.
My truck HAD the old style 500 lbs starter on it, I was having a heat soak issue, found it was the starter. At this point I found I can use a gear reduction starter as a replacement. So I got a reduction starter, installed it, was working good for a long while. Now, it grinding everytime I try to start it, it's requiring 3-4 tries to get it to start, being that it will grind the first 2-3 times before it actually engages properly and spins the engine over.
I got under the truck with flywheel cover off, had someone start it multiple times. The starter gear is only engaging the front half of the flywheel, so it will start to spin and then slip off and grind, slip off immediate and grind or spin and grind and the same time. The gear when extended, does not make contact on the full width of the ring gear, only the forward half. The flywheel is not damaged, just the teeth tips are a little scraped, still use able, the starter gear is pretty chewed up tho. Not gonna be use able for much longer.
The engine block is a late 90's Chevy 350, also known as an "R" motor (engine designation on a VIN #). The flywheel is a GM piece, new, proper to the block and crank shaft, it is the flywheel that's supposed to be there. The starter is also a GM piece proper to the engine and flywheel for a late 90's 3/4 or 1 ton truck with an "R" motor. So all these pieces SHOULD work together properly, but aren't obviously.
Has anyone seen this? Do they know why? Is it simply a starter just not pushing the gear out enough? Possible shim or some kind of alignment issue between the starter and flywheel? What is my next step in the diagnosis? I would like to continue using some sort of reduction starter, preferably a GM one, as it has cured my heat soak problem, but if some kind of adjustable aftermarket unit is required then I'll have to use it.
Thanks guys.
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Replace the starter before you damage the ring gear. After you replace it, check for proper clearance. There is a how to in the tech section
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Saaawheeeeet. Thanks Vile, I'll do that. If it clearances good then I'm done? If it clearances out of spec then I go further with diagnosis?
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Sounds like the bendix might be bad.
As far as the measurement, just need to shim according to the instructions with the starter.
Unless you have a damaged flex plate or you will if you keep grinding it.
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I had work order another for me, I'm either gonna park the truck for a couple days till it arrives or go to the auto parts store, get a stupid cheap one and put that on till the good replacement arrives. Then I'll do the necessary checks.
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This must be the how-to right?
http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?topic=20263.msg164837.msg#164837
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Hopefully the new starter fixes it.
Another thing to check is your battery cables. I had a small block with a similar problem. I spent hours swapping in a bunch of used starters from my parts collection. These were all starters that worked fine when I pulled them off trucks that I parted out. Now all of the sudden they were all having the same problem. It just seemed like they weren't fully meshing with the flywheel.
After trying 5 or 6 different starters the I replaced the battery cables. The truck fired right up without any gringing. That was the problem all along.
Keep us posted.
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Covered that one already, battery cable are less than a year old, peaked at the positive while checking the starter, it's good.
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Ok, the fly wheel is installed correctly, as I expected it to be lol. Is it possible to have to shim a torque, putting washers or shims between the converter and flexplate mounting pads in order to force the ring gear closer to the engine. It appears the old starter is working, and the flex plate is not bent but I think with the converter bolted on, it's pulled the ring gear to far toward to the transmission? Is shinning possible or am I full of crap?
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Being that the tq converter floats on the trans anyway i say no.
Also if you had that much end play in your crank you have other issues.
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Don't reach for wild solutions! Focus and remain systematic.
Disconnect the positive battery cable from the starter and tape it up so it can't arc to ground - leave just enough of the terminal end bare to clip a test lead to it. At this point, nothing should be connected to the 3/8" solenoid stud. Remove the converter dust shield. Clip a test lead to the solenoid "crank" terminal. Touch the opposite end of the test lead to the bare spot on the disconnected and taped positive cable. This energizes the solenoid and draws the pinion into the ring gear w/o cranking the motor. The solenoid should energize and release with an authoritative snap & thud. Now, you can accurately evaluate pinion engagement with the ring gear w/o losing a finger or snagging your hair in a rotating flexplate. Check the pinion penetration and lash. Typically, pinion gear penetration is 55 - 70% of ring gear width - the greater the better - but it will never penetrate 100%. Don't concern yourself with shimming the starter at this time, unless the pinion engages the ring gear with an interference fit that prevents it from either engaging or releasing when power is applied to, or removed from, the solenoid. Shim to resolve whining.
I concur with blazer74. Do not attempt to shim the converter or flexplate. I also agree, perhaps prematurely, that either the drive or solenoid is the source of the problem. If the engine even hints at starting and overruns the pinion, a weak drive or broken drive spring can momentarily allow the pinion to spin out of engagement with the ring gear, but not clear it completely. If the solenoid is not simultaneously de-energized it will hold the pinion against the face of the ring gear and grind away without reengaging.
Another possibility is that the solenoid is energizing the cranking motor prematurely, before the pinion actually penetrates the ring gear. Remember, the solenoid not only forces the pinion forward into the ring gear, but also closes a high-current switch that energizes the starter motor precisely after the pinion engages the ring. Or, at least it's supposed to.
So, if the starter grinds immediately, before the motor actually cranks - the solenoid is at fault. If it begins to crank and then grinds - the drive is the culprit. Make sense?
Finally, don't overlook performing voltage drop tests across the battery positive cable, the starter-to-battery ground, and the solenoid battery cable stud-to-solenoid "crank" terminal, all while cranking the engine with the ignition defeated. If adequate voltage isn't arriving where it should, when it should, even an otherwise perfect starter will labor and throw aggravating tantrums.
With no intention of demoting what others have posted, I think Vile has provided the best advice, thus far. Replace the starter and then check the operating clearances.
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Oh Bd, my friend, great information as always. I'm gonna a have to address each paragraph one at time just to keep everything in order and clear.
P1. Don't worry, I wasnt. I was throwing an idea out just to see if that's something that is actually possible or common. I've never heard of shimming the converter, but shimming the starter, that's normal chevy lingo. Lol.
P2. I thing I did this in a different way. I already had the old starter off. I hooked jumper cables up to my battery, at the other end I hooked the positive onto the lug of the solenoid that has the large cable going from the solenoid into the starter body. Then I completed the circuit by touching the ground clamp to the body of the starter. It spins but did not kick out. Then I hooked the positive clamp up to the lug on the solenoid where the battery cable goes, ground clamp to the body of the starter, then I used a jumper wire to go between the battery cable lug and the much smaller lug. When I do this, the starter kicks out, spins and then stops spinning and kicks back in when I take the power away. I think what I've done is the same as you described just an a bench and not on the truck. Never did it push the solenoid out without spinning it. So did I do it right or did I miss something? Also, both new and old units operated the exact same during my "tests".
P3. I have not shimmed anything yet.
P4. This issue just starter the other day, haven't had a single issue with starting the truck until this.
P5. It does make sense. Sometimes it would grind immediately, sometimes it would begin to crank and then grind, sometimes it would crank then grind then crank then grind and then crank again all in just a few seconds. Ide give it a little gas as it rotates just to give it a shot to start so I don't have to keep grinding it.
P6. I checked when I replaced the battery cables, it was getting good voltage. Haven't had any electrical issues so I think it still is. Didn't do any checks tonight tho.
P7. I replaced the starter tonight, it's working normally. I would like to get this fixed before it happens again obviously. It was about 2 months between installing the first 1 and it turning into an AC Delco rock crusher 5 days ago.
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Bench checking the starter as you did would be "a limitation" if someone brought the starter into you for evaluation with the list of symptoms you reported. Your resulting expression might be something akin to... :o. Better to check it on the vehicle so you can evaluate the complete system and operating environment, including pinion engagement with the ring gear, which is the crucial observation missed on the bench - no?
The moment you begin making assumptions (e.g., the cables are only a year old... "I checked when I replaced the battery cables [one year ago], it was getting good voltage. Haven't had any electrical issues so I think it still is.) is the moment you tie your shoes together. You may well be correct in your assumptions, but experience humbled me and those I worked with many times over. A word to the wise: Low voltage can result in mechanical damage that festoons into catastrophe, sometimes hiding the original issue. Check the operating voltages again, in a new unit of time, to help ensure your purpose:
...I replaced the starter tonight, it's working normally. I would like to get this fixed before it happens again obviously. It was about 2 months between installing the first 1 and it turning into an AC Delco rock crusher 5 days ago.
Don't make assumptions!
Since the new Delco starter is only a few months old, have your warranty admin replace it. That's why warranty exists.
Now, circling back to the beginning and Vile's advice...
Replace the starter before you damage the ring gear. After you replace it, check for proper clearance. There is a how to in the tech section
;)
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Thanks. The only issue with the warranty replacement I'm having is will they warranty it when it's working. Just the teeth are ground off. IF indeed the starter is the root cause, I have no problem with warranty replacement. IF the starter is NOT the root cause, I do not want to claim that it was because that seems dishonest to me and I don't want to get cause a trust issue with my work. So how do I approach honestly covering the cost of the new one.
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So, check e/g out as discussed, both mechanically and electrically. If you don't discover an external cause, that leaves the starter (which, factually, sounds like the case). It's not unprecedented. It's not a question of dishonesty. It's more a matter of routine. If your warranty admin is worth his/her salt, he/she should have no qualms applying for AFA resolution and settling the claim successfully through the OEM. With GM, it's almost a surety.
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Ok. I see. I think our warranty admin will have no problem with it. As of right now, the new one, is working properly. Tonight, I will be re checking the engagement of the new unit, along with voltage drop and ring gear to pinion gear clearance.
The only other thought I had is, the physical dimensions of the smaller reduction starter, specifically the cone area where the gear slides out, is physically shorter than the more standard and much heavier regular starter. So it's just simply not long enough for proper engagement. Again only an idea, I have to preform the tests first.
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Well I've been using the 2nd gear reduction starter for about a week n half or so, it's beginning to grind again at times. I figured out that it's more when it's heat soaked for an hour or less or for a shirt period like 10-15 or less, like stopping at a gas station. When cold, it works but right ad I release the key to the run position it makes a little noise as the starter disengages.
I've done some more digging around, and I never knew about this but apperently some vehicles have a starter brace, a bracket that supports it in some way. I don't know whether it's based on engine or starter, when your supposed to use this brace.
Also, I plan to remove the direct drive starter from my 97 silverado, put it on my truck and then start it alot and use it for a week or so and see if it solves the issue.
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Ok, I may have found an important piece of information. I carefully pulled the starter gear out (as info to in gage the flywheel) with it fully extended, I can fit a 1/8 inch allen wrench between the ring gear and starter gear. What I mean buy that is, with 1 tooth of the starter gear inside 1 valley of the ring gear, I can fit a 1/8 allen wrench. Like this.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/06/651995361d5f0d3daa4e1257c63fc96a.jpg)
Does this extended far enough into the width of the ring gear?
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/06/ec0efa3d2970ad7a068adf211c584efc.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/06/c2bab7c5e70f36c62e849c49b757018f.jpg)
This is the end of a 1/8 inch thick small pick tool between the teeth of each gear?
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/06/8a7eccd86d17dbc4570d2c4a9500af41.jpg)
Could this be my whole issue I didn't see the first time? Too much clearance? I need a shim to push the teeth of each gear closer together?
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Rechecking using this picture from the link on page 1.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/06/d66befa950888cf119ffdd980128ac3e.jpg)
Using steps 2 and 4. I can fit a 1/4 inch allen wrench between the ring gear and pinion shaft. Twice the distance of the 1/8 gauge tool they reference in the picture.
I think that's the problem right there right? Should I install a 1/8 shim and recheck clearance?
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From what I can tell from the pictures those teeth are barely touching when they spin. Something definitely isn't right and needs to be shimmed.
Are you able to get a clear side side of the flywheel and starter? In one shot it looks like it might be ok.. in another it looks way out.
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Unfortunately I can't get this flat screen of a smart phone in there to take a clear picture, it will only appear like grizzly bear in a snow storm. It's definitely way off tho.
Using simple math, I had 1/4 inch of clearance, the measuring tool is 1/8 inch thick, so I installed 1/8 inch worth of shims. Now 1/4 inch minus 1/8 inch should equal 1/8 inch. Now I rechecked and it's already vastly improved, however there is still about 1/16 inch of space between the measuring tool and the ring gear when the measuring tool is touching the pinion shaft. Is that 1/16 extra ok or do I need more shim?
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Best as I can for pics, this is with the shims I just mentioned above.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/06/a1162a1323eeeaf43b5fddf6328e2272.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/06/599115cced80cb7b7738ee24567e0c3f.jpg)
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That ring gear looks pretty chewed up at this point. I recommend replacement before it tears up the pinion gear on the new starter.
From w a y back on the first page...
...Disconnect the positive battery cable from the starter and tape it up so it can't arc to ground - leave just enough of the terminal end bare to clip a test lead to it. At this point, nothing should be connected to the 3/8" solenoid stud. Remove the converter dust shield. Clip a test lead to the solenoid "crank" terminal. Touch the opposite end of the test lead to the bare spot on the disconnected and taped positive cable. This energizes the solenoid and draws the pinion into the ring gear w/o cranking the motor. The solenoid should energize and release with an authoritative snap & thud. Now, you can accurately evaluate pinion engagement with the ring gear w/o losing a finger or snagging your hair in a rotating flexplate. Check the pinion penetration and lash....
Radial penetration (mesh) of the pinion into the ring gear should leave 0.020" (preferred) - 0.030" (maximum) clearance, measured as indicated in the attached image. You can use a paper clip as a gauge.
If you need to use half-shims, consider fabricating a support for the motor end of the starter, using the image posted by Irish_Alley for ideas. A simple but effective support can be fabricated from 3/4" angle iron. There should be a 1/4" bolt hole in the side of the block that can be used to anchor the support.
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Well guys, I seriously appreciate all of your help. I shimmed it, rechecked clearance, seemed to be good, tried starting it about 10 times, 4 or 5 of those were just holding the key down and letting it crank away for 10-15 seconds continuously to make sure it didn't skip off or grind. Was working like a champ. Then I found an extra shim, realized I missed counted and it didn't have as many as needed, so loosened it back up, put the extra shim in, restarted about 3 times, got a little grinding. Ok, fair enough, that was 1 shim too many, rechecked with gauge, sure enough, the gap is little to big. Removed extra shim, retightened bolts, restarted about 3 times, on the 3rd try, I got a grind and then a whiz, that's right, starter is spinning freely and not spinning the engine over. Tried to restart about 5 times, everytime it's a 1/2 second grind then whiz. Truck won't even turn over.
So I've either stripped the teeth off the pinion gear or off the ring gear. I'm leaning toward ring gear tho, because I rotated the engine over about 90 degrees with a wrench and socket on the front crank bolt, then tried to restart, got another 1/2 second grind and the engine turned over enough to start. So I think there is now a bad spot on the flywheel.
I think now I'm gonna have to examine the starter for damage, replace if needed, replace the flywheel and start all over again at the beginning, from scratch, fresh flywheel, fresh or good starter, check all clearances, make a bracket if needed and use a better assortment of shims.
Needless to say, I'm very frustrated, pretty pissed off at the moment and wish I would have just not messed with the extra shim when I found it. Oh well, how do we learn if we don't screw it up the first 100 times right? Thanks again for all your help guys. I've very grateful.
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Taking another look on my desktop and not laptop that flywheel is absolutely shot. Look at the pic I've attached and you can see the worn out part and the beveling.
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Yea your telling me. I knew that was gonna happen. Really just mad at myself for not figuring out the shimming thing sooner and getting it fixed properly. Now I'm paying the price with a new flywheel. The shims I got weren't that great either, they were all the same size, I had 5 stacked up when it was working good but failed shortly after. Now I'm carrying my big 1/2 inch long handle ratchet and crank socket in the truck, if it don't start, roll the engine over a bit and try again lol. Gonna order a new flywheel this morning, I'm hoping we have one in stock. Fix it this weekend if I can.
I think with that article I posted earlier and on page 1, your guys help and that small black and white image BD posted I should be able to get it right now.
I also just learned your not supposed to use more than 2 or 3 shims max, so being as the parts store gave me the really small ones, I had too many stacked up.
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Measure carefully and don't get shim crazy. In 30 years of repairing these pigs I rarely had to shim a starter. Are you cramming all of those shims under only one bolt?
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Measure carefully and don't get shim crazy. In 30 years of repairing these pigs I rarely had to shim a starter. Are you cramming all of those shims under only one bolt?
That's what I'm hearing, I shouldn't need to shim alot, yes they were all under 1 bolt. I'll just start all over on Monday when the new flexplate arrives. That way I've had time to relax, regroup and be a little more professional about the whole thing. Haha
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Update: Monday nite I got the trans seperated, 5 of the 6 flexplate bolts out. The last 1, for what ever reason was tighten to the German specification of gootentite. Last nite I dropped the crossmember, move the trans back a bit more, got the stuck bolt out, new flexplate on with new ARP 12 point flexplate bolts.
Tonight will be the remating of the trans and engine and put the crossmember back. Anything, I don't get done tonight will be done tomorrow. And either tonight or tomorrow will be when I start over from scratch and evaluate my starter to flexplate alignment and mesh.
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Update: Tonight, I got the trans reattached and everything all back together. I also was able to check the ring to pinion gear mesh and alignment.
I started from scratch, bolted starter up, checked, added a little shim, rechecked, added little more shim, rechecked and got a good result. Now, the starter was engaging about 2/3 or 3/4 of the width of the flexplate. Used a paper clip, I have light drag between the 2 gears, just like gapping a spark plug.
So then I tried to start it and it didn't start, it sounded different then grinding. So with an extra person, I watched the starter while they tried to start it. You guys will never believe this! The starter extends the pinion gear, it makes solid contact with the ring gear, then it cranks the engine over about 1/4 of a revolution and the pinion gear stops spinning, as soon as the gear stops turning, the pinion shaft continues to turn inside it on its own just making the whiz noise that starters make when you run them on work bench when they weren't attached to anything.
It only does this when on the engine, something about having to spin a V8 under compression makes the shaft break free of the gear and spin on its own, leaving the gear just sitting there until it disengages and the gear drops back into the starter body. I tested it on the work bench and it operates properly. I've never seen or heard of a starter doing that before.
Now this current starter, #2, I paid for out right because I knew it was my fault the teeth got chewed up on starter #1. I think it's save to say tho, there will be no problem being able to warranty #2 and getting the replacement, #3. Starter #2 worked right a total of about 10 times. It made the whiz noise against the beat up flexplate, I assumed the flexplate was just done, (which it was anyway), so it wasn't until I had the new flexplate on that I discovered the starter itself had also gone kahput!
So now just waiting on another starter, get that and it should be good to go.
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Update: Got the 3rd starter, (I should start collecting extra starters and flexplates just in case haha), got it shimmed up passes the paper clip test. The engagement depth and gear to gear mesh is most excellent now. Sounds good, cranks good. I left the distributor and fuel pump unplugged for a few hours last night, every 15 min or so I would crank it for 3-5 seconds just to keep rechecking my work. Has been working good, every once in awhile today to I start it really quick. I wanna keep rechecking it so I know I won't have to do this again. Been working great so far, knock on wood.
THANK YOU all for all of your great help as usual. So far another problem solved with this site and it's members. :D
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Update: ...I should start collecting extra starters and flexplates just in case....
Hmmm. You could found a GM starter museum and apply for nonprofit status.... ;D
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Update: ...I should start collecting extra starters and flexplates just in case....
Hmmm. You could found a GM starter museum and apply for nonprofit status.... ;D
Haha, that would be an interesting endeavor. GM starter and alternator museum... that place would probably be pretty electrifying. (Pardon the pun lol)
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Like I always say, the third starters a charm.
Glad to hear that the trucks running again.
Did you ever make the starter bracket for it?
I gotta admit, on SB Chevy's I always tossed the starter bracket in the trash. I don't know why (just lazy I guess).
I've never run into a problem, but in your case, I think its worth buying or making a starter bracket.
Maybe the Engineers at GM put a little more thought into it than I did as a 17 year old high school kid with a camaro.
One more thing to consider is buying new GM starter bolts. Like the starter bracket, I never thought twice about reusing starter bolts. Now that I have a small fleet of 6.2 powered Chevy's, my thinking has changed. Many 6.2 engine blocks have been damaged by not using the starter bracket (especialy when using the heavy direct drive starter). The articles I've read online recommend replacing the 6.2 started bolts whenever they are removed. I don't think they are torque to yield bolts, but I've heard horror stories of the bolts snapping off in the block when reused. Granted this is probably due to the started dealing with the high compression of the 6.2, but in your case, it may be cheap insurance.
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Yea 3rd starter and 2nd flexplate have been working like a charm so far. My truck never had a bracket when I got, my 97 doesn't have one, doesn't been it didn't disappear sometime before I got it and my 91 camaro never had one either. I have the gear reduction starter on the truck and now that I got it shimmed properly, I don't think I'll need the bracket. It's definitely alot quieter during starting now. I got new bolts when I bought gear reduc. starter #1. Starter, bolts and flexplate are all GM parts from work. I will most likely be getting a heat blanket or heat shroud sleeve tho soon.
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If you added shims asymmetrically under the starter flange so that the flange is angled with respect to the block, the starter isn't evenly supported across its flange. This can allow subtle flexing and result in added stress on the bolts. Fabricate a support bracket for the heavy end of the starter. That is, unless you want your next lesson in humility. Installing a simple support bracket, now, is easy and relatively painless!
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Ok, so this bracket should go where? The heavy end would be the end that doesn't have any bolts and where on the block should the bracket go?
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(http://www.chevycumminsparts.com/uploads/1/0/2/7/10279285/3513686_orig.jpg?316)
There should be two 1/4" bolt holes in the side of the block directly above the starter butt plate and just below the deck surface (used to anchor spark plug wire looms, the oil dipstick tube and starters in various years). You should be able to fabricate a simple brace from ~3/4" angle iron with a mounting hole at each end. The limb of the angle iron normal to the block will need to be notched, bent and welded to bring the bottom of the bracket into alignment with a butt plate bolt (or some similar configuration that works with your particular starter). It doesn't need to be beefy - just stout enough to stabilize the free end of the starter's mass against vertical movement. Keep it simple and allow for ample clearance with the battery cable.
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Ok BD, I got ya, pretty sure I know what ya mean now. Also, what starter heat shields do you guys recommend?
I've been looking online at DEI and Heat Shield Products on Summit Racing, but the product links are from their manufacturer's website. These are the few I have been looking at.
DEI:
http://www.designengineering.com/category/catalog/design-engineering-inc/component-specific-products/ultra-shield-ma-starter-shield
HSP:
Specifically the #501000 here.
http://www.heatshieldproducts.com/automotive/component-specific-heat-shields/hp-starter-shield
Not sure but probably the #501070 here.
http://www.heatshieldproducts.com/automotive/component-specific-heat-shields/lava-starter-shield
I think that overall I'm considering going with the HSP 501000. However the 501070 seams better than all 3 and the DEI piece is the most expensive.
Opinions?
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Haven't obtained a heat shield yet. My only bone of contention with those is that they might deflect the heat from the headers but they retain the heat inside the starter. So I had a thought. Instead of putting a shield on the starter, I'm considering wrapping that area of the header with header wrap. This should help retain the heat from the exhaust and keep it in the exhaust. In turn, allowing the starter to be open as normal with constant air flow to help keep it cooler. Plus, it's on the right side so it won't affect the reading of the O2 sensor, I only have 1 and it's on the left side.
To me, this sounds more logical, what do you guys think?
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Heat shields may not function quite in the way that you're thinking. The metalized layer(s) reflect(s) intense, direct radiant heat emitted from the exhaust, up to ~2,000° F. The fabric layers help to insulate from convective heat while increasing shield durability and stiffening the shield to help maintain its shape. The conductive heat that passes from the engine block through the starter frame is insignificant. The primary concern for the starter is the intense heat radiated by the exhaust or exhaust leaks in the vicinity of the starter.
Think of a Nomex hand and arm glove. It doesn't cause your arm to overheat by trapping body heat, it insulates your arm from severe outside heat to protect it from burning. The starter blanket doesn't keep the starter cozy warm, it protects it from broiling.
So the bottom line is: "...six of one, half dozen of the other...." The main goal is to shield against intense exhaust heat. How you accomplish that goal is moot.
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FYI - I use the DEI-010402 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dei-010402). It does its job very quietly and there are no moving parts. ::) But, I won't defend it as superior to anything else, just convenient.
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That's exactly what I was thinking. If I gave the impression I expect the starter to be cool enough to keep my beer cold then I apologize. I know it's going to get hot, I just don't want it to broil it like you said.
I have 2 inch DEI wrap around the exhaust pipes running the full length of section of pipe that is under the cab. Helps keep floorboard heat down and works great. Being as I've had great luck with that, I'm going to employ it on the header tonight. My local O'Reilly's has the DEI wrap in black in stock with the steel locking ties. Buying those 2 items is the same as 1 heat shield. "6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of the other". Plus I have to make that support bracket also tonight.
I'm going to check my rear brakes tonight, letting the exhaust cool then I'll wrap and fab up that stuff.
Thanks for yours guys help again. Especially BD, extreme fountain of knowledge that guy is.
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That's exactly what I was thinking.... I expect the starter to be cool enough to keep my beer cold....
Hey! If you figure out how to do that, you'll have my undivided attention!!! I'll even look into a patent for you us! ;D (Always read the fine print).
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That's exactly what I was thinking.... I expect the starter to be cool enough to keep my beer cold....
Hey! If you figure out how to do that, you'll have my undivided attention!!! I'll even look into a patent for you us! ;D (Always read the fine print).
Haha ok deal.
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That's exactly what I was thinking.... I expect the starter to be cool enough to keep my beer cold....
Hey! If you figure out how to do that, you'll have my undivided attention!!! I'll even look into a patent for you us! ;D (Always read the fine print).
I do have a TEC cooler at home that could easily be setup to run on something like a starter lol.
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I'm sure there are a few different ways you could figure something out using a starter motor.
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Check out the header wrap dudes.
Top side, did 2 laps around the rear tube just to get the wrap started.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/19/24790ba0874d7c8fef124dc2cf84946b.jpg)
In both of these, it looks like alot of overlap but doing it on the truck, on my back, with my LED flashlight and the underhood lamp, it's not to bad. It takes time to cover the outside of a corner too, you keep going over the same area on inside of the corner but the outsid has way more space to cover.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/19/69f550bba391bbc812135c64cb7242e8.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/19/d91e535b8f4ef9b4627970893249d2f4.jpg)
Even with gloves on, this stuff is so itchy it's stupid lol.
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Header wrap = fiberglass
When working with header wrap long sleeves and gloves and when you are done wash everything including yourself in cold water.
Also just be careful with header wrap as it can trap moisture and rust out the headers.
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I agree with enaberif, the wrap will accelerate rusting of the exhaust. But, seeing how the collector crowds the starter, a starter blanket would not provide nearly the heat protection afforded by the wrap.
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Yea fiberglass sucks haha. I did think about water getting in there but I didn't think about it rusting. It's 2wd so it never goes river rafting, only time the whole engine actually gets wet is once in a while when I spray the dust and dirt off. Plus the headers are ceramic coated and the headers are only about a year old, I think I got awhile before I have to worry about rust. And I always start it after I wash it so it drys quickly. I touched it real quick after I got to work, even right after I shut it off, I could touch it for a few seconds which is better than not at all with no wrap. That stuff really works.
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As far as the header wrap goes, I don't think rust is a major concern.
When I bought my 69 camaro 15 years ago, it had a set of Hooker super comp headers with exhaust wrap on them.
My best guess is that the headers were installed in the late 70's. I'm not sure what year the wrap was installed. The headers were wrapped from the head flange all the way to the collector.
I kept those headers on the car until 2005 when i installed a rebuilt small block.
When I installed the motor I installed a new set of Hooker ceramic coater headers. The new headers were installed just for an updated look, the old ones were still holding up just fine.
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Yea, I'm not worried at all.
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Well I'm back here again gents. The starter on the pickup is toast again. Tried to leave the store Walmart Saturday night, made a few half grind/half turn over noises and then went full grinding. So not being in the mood to diagnose it in the lot, I had AAA send me a hook truck, towed it home, dropped it in the yard and bounced, went to the party I ended up being an hour and half late for.
This morning preformed my diag, starter gear is stripped out, there is a crack in the body on one of the mounting bolt bosses, the flexplate in unharmed (thank goodness). I've replaced that thing once already.
So all the clearances where good and it had a few shims but everything was in check, not sure why the gear stripped out. That's the second gear reduction unit of roached. I'm thinking compression is to much for it to handle.
So the questions now is, do I just replace with a direct drive unit or a direct drive from a big block, I've heard those will bolt up no problem but have more torque. Do I replace with another small block gear reduction or a big block gear reduction.
The truck has a late 90s Vin letter "R" 350ci block, 1 piece rear main seal, matching GM flexplate and 1 newly stripped off GM gear reduction starter.
Maybe a cheap unit from the O'Reilly, friend of mind did that on his truck and has never had an issue, my 97 Silverado has a reman direct drive starter that was on it when we bought it and it works great also. Both the 97 and my truck have the same engine block, flexplate and transmission. The truck is basically a high performance version of the stock drive train in the 97.
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Look into a high tq mini starter, hear they are the best route to go. Will be my next starter.
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Look into a high tq mini starter, hear they are the best route to go. Will be my next starter.
I looked into it but my understanding was that a factory gear reduction starter was the same thing. More torque due to the gear reduction setup instead of direct drive. But I've killed a few of those already. I'm wondering if a regular replacement direct drive for a 97 Silverado would be the best thing to do seeing as how my lower end is the same as a 97.
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Good quality new unit?Hard to know what that is these days tho.
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All 4 starters I've torched have been brand new AC Delco units. I just bought a new Ultima direct drive for a 97 and a reman direct drive for a 70s truck. I'm going to install both starters, and then inspect fit, clearance and operation and see which seems better. The 70s starter came with shims the 97 starter did not. My 97 truck has no shims and no support brace of any kind. A 70s starter may require shims and does require a support brace.
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Interested. Lot of (new) GM parts are Chinese sadly.
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Yea, only thing wrong with the one I took off this morning was the gear is stripped. I mounted up the 70s reman unit, starter clearance is good with 1 shim. It fits, I have an old heat shield that fits on it and I have a support bracket I started to fabricate but never finished that looks like it will fit. Now I'm gonna try the 97 starter, which has no heat shield or bracket provisions. I did not hook up wiring and test it tho. Want too try fitting the 97 starter first.
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Better the bendix gear failed then the flex-plate/flywheel.
I've got a bad spot on my flex plate that shows up at the most inopportune times.
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Better the bendix gear failed then the flex-plate/flywheel.
I've got a bad spot on my flex plate that shows up at the most inopportune times.
The bendix gear & flywheel both failed 3 starter replacements ago. That was when the very first starter destroyed itself and the ring gear. Replacement of the flexplate that was only 6 months old already is something we don't discuss because it will only aggravate me at the highest order, I almost put a 12 gauge slug threw the block that day......
Well now the 70's starter is installed with an extra heat shield I had and support brace that I fabricated, along with 2 new accessorie power wires that go to the positive cable stud. All works well 3 times in a row, but I keep starting it just to be sure.
During assembly, those 2 power wires had black chunks falling from inside their loom. So pulled the loom off and found this.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160301/b09e099a26c0f48cf9b59593cd475242.jpg)
I cut the wires off where they were still good back behind the block and repaired them good and proper.
Here's the failed starter.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160301/4de2a19d172a624b33ad0e8de09b0099.jpg)
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Wow, serious amp draw or excessive heat.
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I think it was heat. I have headers and the delco starter above had no provisions for a heat shield. Now I have a heat shield, new wires, I routed them a little different and header wrap on the lower half of the header that's right by the starter. The wrap was there already but not anywhere near the time period those wires have been down there. The new routing has more airflow area and I can see them from the top so I'll keep an eye on them.
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LTZ, failure analysis is a vital component of success. Take a few minutes and lay out all of the parts. Look at them. Inspect every detail. Observe each failure, both independently and collectively. Don't conclude anything until you have inspected everything. Based only on what you see, what was (were) the cause(s)?
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BD, are we referring to the starter failure or the 2 damaged wires?
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BD, are we referring to the starter failure or the 2 damaged wires?
Both.
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Ok so here's what I saw.
Starter failer:
-starter gear stripped
-flywheel not stripped
-bolts where tight, no shims had fallen out (had 4 shims, I've read somewhere should be no more than 5 total)
-starter was a Delco gear reduction type, (more torque than a direct drive? Not sure on that)
-no provisions for a support bracket, so there was no bracket installed
Possible cause of failure:
Starter creates to much torque during cranking, the number of shims and no support bracket allowed the starter body to flex away from the flexplate and over time wear the gear down untill it stripped out completely. Gear lash was in spec when I installed it.
The new starter (a direct drive unit) has a support bracket, only 1 shim, bolts are torqued to spec, gear lash is in spec. It is working good so far.
Damaged wires:
-no heat shield
-wires were routed too close to header even tho they weren't close enough to flex and touch
-the loom was soaked in oil from a previous leak.
-no protective header wrap to help dissipate heat.
Possible cause of failure:
The previous oil leak soaked the loom in oil which over time soaked into the insulation of the wiring, degrading the material, along side being in the same area as an object which radiates high heat. The heat cooked the the oil which burnt the insulation to a crisp, destroying the wires. The exposed wiring turned gear due to exposure to atmosphere which could be wet or damp at times, oxidizing the exposed area.
The header now has heat wrap around the entire starter area, the oil leak was fixed, the wires routed with more air flow and room between them and the header, all of the oil soaked loom was removed and the wiring cut back where it was still good and repaired and reloomed.
Best as I can tell, that's what makes the most sense to me.