Author Topic: Weird Electrical Issues  (Read 4036 times)

Offline Leewit

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Weird Electrical Issues
« on: January 16, 2018, 09:12:41 AM »
I have a '78 454 Scottsdale 3/4 ton (I think). I went to drive it last week and it died in the road very slowly. Normally the truck takes a little to prime with fuel and I know it guzzles but it runs like a race horse once it's going. I had driven maybe three blocks and I had a quarter tank of gas according to the gauge. So it dies as I dive for the curb. A good Samaritan tried to help me by pouring gas down the carburetor, but by then the starter gave up and the electrical died completely. So it got left. Next day I put 3-4 gallons in the tank with a can. I hooked the battery up for a jump and tried to start the truck. It cranked but wouldn't turn over. When I turned the key off the entire ignition cylinder came out of the column and the starter kept going until I could get the battery disconnected. So I replaced the starter solenoid and tried it again. I had full electrical but the starter only clicked after that. The battery kept getting hot and the cables would get hot so I took the battery and had it tested, tested as fully charged, appears fine. I checked the positive and negative cables, they've been replaced and they aren't corroded, loose or damaged. No corrosion or acid build up on the terminal posts or cable clamps.

I'm thinking I need to test my starter out of the truck, clean it and the mount and reinstall it. The battery cables getting hot has me concerned however, because it does it when the battery is connected, even if the key is off. To make sure the (now removable) ignition cylinder wasn't the culprit, I rigged a push button and had the same results. I'm at a loss for what else could be happening. Also, I have no idea if it's related or not but the day all this started the rear tail lights quit working; the brake lights work, so do the turn signals. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Offline Irish_Alley

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Re: Weird Electrical Issues
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2018, 04:04:57 PM »
sounds like the starter is shot. almost sounds as if its stuck "on" and froze up at the same time. why did you replace the starter solenoid? could you have hooked the wires up wrong?
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Offline Henry

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Re: Weird Electrical Issues
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2018, 01:34:07 PM »
Hi Leewit:
Well it sounds like you had an initial problem where the truck stalled and then a new problem was created when your ignition cylinder came off or broke after all the cranking which was not solving the first problem...I think you need to diagnose them as 2 separate problems.

The first problem is either no spark at the plugs or no fuel to the carb float chamber. Most likely a fuel problem since you said you needed to prime a lot for starting cold. But, for standard process it is easiest to start with electrical checks (distributor and coil stuff) then go to carb/fuel pump checks.

The second problem sounds like you damaged something in the starter solenoid by overcranking...fix whatever happened to the ign switch so that doesnt happen again and then replace/rebuild solenoid...no need to crank the engine excessively until first problem is diagnosed.

Regards,
Henry


Offline Henry

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Re: Weird Electrical Issues
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2018, 01:39:47 PM »
Hi Leewit:
Sorry, on the last post I meant replace/rebuild the STARTER not the solenoid, since you already replaced the solenoid...sounds like you damaged the starter from too much cranking...you can have them check it out at a parts store.
Regards,
Henry

Offline Leewit

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Re: Weird Electrical Issues
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2018, 03:47:54 PM »
Ok, some back story. An idiot I was dating replaced the ignition cylinder a few months back, haven't had any issues with that until it pulled out of the column last week. Rigging the push button ignition allowed me to eliminate that as the problem however. Because it does the same thing when I tried to start it off the button.

So today I got the starter out, took the spring the solenoid came with out, and put my old spring into the new solenoid. I tested the starter on the ground with the fully charged battery using jumper cables. It operates as it's supposed to. Pops out, spins, pops back and stops. I cleaned up the mount area on my block and on the starter, and reinstalled it.

I tried to start the truck. Turned over, wouldn't crank *wrong word wouldn't bloody fire-up. I let off the starter, and it kept going on and on again. Had to pull the battery cables off to get it to stop, again. So, yes, it seems that something in the starter must not be disconnecting the hot when the S cable isn't sending a signal. Guess that eliminates the solenoid as the culprit, but frankly it was a cheaper attempted fix than going for the starter right off. Besides, I've never had a starter "go bad" that wants to just keep running and running. I'm used to the stupid heartbreaking click.

This sucks. Only good thing is that this time the battery cables didn't get hot and the battery didn't try to boil. I'd be inclined to look for shorts in the wires, except that running the push button start with brand new wires would have solved that too, unless there's a problem with the terminal cables, and they look fine.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 11:04:18 PM by Leewit »

Offline bd

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Re: Weird Electrical Issues
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2018, 04:39:01 PM »
The ignition lock cylinder is retained in the column by a screw.  The screw was probably left out.

...Turned over, wouldn't crank....

What do you mean by this ^^^^^ ?
Rich
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Offline Leewit

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Re: Weird Electrical Issues
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2018, 10:44:44 PM »
Instead of clicking like last time I tested it, the starter engaged and started the engine turning over.  When I took power off the signal wire today, the starter continued to spin, along with everything else. Today was fairly warm and I expected the truck to start but I can't figure out why the bloody starter won't quit when it's supposed to. I just found this thread.

http://www.ls1lt1.com/forum/general-tech/48666-starter-keeps-spinning-without-key-ignition.html

The heat shield mounts between the starter and the block, it wouldn't cooperate when I put the starter back on and I moved it aside. I wonder if that tiny difference is hanging up the pinon gear and keeping it from disengaging.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 11:02:51 PM by Leewit »

Offline Leewit

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Re: Weird Electrical Issues
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2018, 10:34:32 AM »
Every forum I've checked leads back to the starter/solenoid being bad. What I don't understand is why the truck died while running in the first place. That it died slowly, electrically still sticks in my mind. If it had run out of gas it would have just puttered and died. My car, '95 Escort, did this a few times- died slowly on the road, radio and lights fading to nothing while dying. In the car, sometimes it could sit about 20 minutes and go from total dead to partially alive and even start again. A new alternator fixed the car.

Offline bd

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Re: Weird Electrical Issues
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2018, 12:11:14 PM »
It's an interesting problem.  With the starter installed, disconnect all of the cables and wiring from the solenoid.  Remove the torque converter/flywheel dust cover.  Momentarily connect a jumper between the battery B+ cable and the "S" terminal of the solenoid.  The solenoid should definitively extend the pinion gear to engage the ring gear with a loud snap, w/o cranking the starter.  Disconnecting the jumper wire should cause the pinion gear to retract from the ring gear the same way.  Does it?
Rich
It's difficult to know just how much you don't know until you know it.
In other words... if people learn by making mistakes, by now I should know just about everything!!!
87 R10 Silverado Fleetside 355 MPFI 700R4 3.42 Locker (aka Rusty, aka Mater)

Offline Henry

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Re: Weird Electrical Issues
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2018, 03:09:30 PM »
Hi Leewit:
So from the last couple of replies you have done, it sounds like the starter is fine...spins like crazy. When it runs continuously after ign switch is disconnected, this has to be the high amperage contacts in the solenoid sticking on...the starter motor is just a "dumb" motor that does whatever commands it is given by the solenoid...when you remove command voltage from the solenoid, the spring is supposed to disconnect the high amperage contacts which provide power to the starter motor. Did you say you replaced the solenoid with a new or rebuilt solenoid after you first had problems? When the solenoids get old the contacts can weld themselves to the contacted position on protracted cranking as well as the return spring not functioning correctly. The solenoid contacts can get so buggered up they need to be replaced.

Yeah, the starter/solenoid problem should be fixed first as you will need the cranking ability to do some checks with the no-start/stalling problem. Do not rush to any conclusions on the no-start/stalling problem...very often the symptoms of this can be electrical or fuel and not be apparent at first guess. You have to be methodical about your troubleshooting. All these problems you are having (except the ign switch) have happened to me too!

Regards,
Henry

Offline Leewit

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Re: Weird Electrical Issues
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2018, 08:42:19 PM »
So I dug the starter out and hauled it to NAPA, it (and the new solenoid) tests out in perfect working order. My battery tested fine again too. The gentleman said in his experience, the culprit was the ignition switch... which I eliminated when I ran the new wires and rigged the starter button. Tomorrow I'm going to reinstall the starter, and put the heat shield back where it's supposed to go. I might pick up shims too, but I can't wrap my brain around the idea that the starter is suddenly getting stuck on the gear ring, because it never did before. If the bugger keeps cranking away, again, I'm going to have to test the alternator. I can't think what else could possibly be causing this problem.

Offline Leewit

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Re: Weird Electrical Issues
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2018, 06:02:05 PM »
So I reinstalled the starter today. I managed to get the heat shield on the bolt this time. I replaced about a foot of wire going from the starter to the distributor, it had an ugly exposed splice I hadn't noticed before. I tried the truck on the push button start and the starter did it's thing and then quit when I let off the button. Turned her over again and gave her gas and she fired up and ran strong. Starter operated perfectly. I have no idea if my problem was the wire, or still is the ignition switch or relay. It runs and I got it home which is what I needed for now. I can get the steering column rebuilt correctly and test the switch and the relay later.

Thank you to everyone for the replies. Mechanics is not my strong point and it helped a lot to hear the different perspectives.

Offline Henry

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Re: Weird Electrical Issues
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2018, 01:29:29 PM »
Hi Leewit:
Sounds like you are making progress...once you have that ignition switch problem squared away and the truck cranks OK, I think you still have to be concerned about the stalling on the street while driving. This is most likely going to happen again and is probably a carburetor problem (is it a oem Q-jet?) but you should still keep your mind open to an ignition problem. The standard troubleshooting should be followed which is electrical checks first and then fuel checks second. If it refuses to stall when at your residence (always the case with me), you can keep some troubleshooting tools in the cab with you to do some electrical checks (for spark) when it dies on you when doing an extensive test drive close to home with an assistant with you trying to get it to stall. Keep in mind that long continuous cranking of the engine is not good: it is hard on the solenoid and starter as they are not designed to dissipate heat from a lot of cranking. Short cranks are best with a few minutes rest between for the heat to dissipate.  If you dont have a Haynes service book for your truck I recommend you getting one as the troubleshooting section is pretty good.
Regards,
Henry

Offline NCali

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Re: Weird Electrical Issues
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2018, 02:32:47 PM »
Ive noticed that you have had the starter in and out several times. Have you shimmed the starter each time you have installed it? A starter installed with no shims will cause the gear on the starter to hang up in the fly wheel and continually run. That in turn will cause your cables to heat up
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