73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Engine/Drivetrain => Topic started by: Skunksmash on January 23, 2009, 12:30:16 am
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I just wanted to get you guy's opinions on what the best quality oil to use on our flat tappet motors is. I know that opinions will vary, but maybe you can also say why you choose the oil that you do. I know the top dog in synthetics is AMSoil, but i really dont know what i should use in my 87 5.7L TBi. They have so many that it's confusing. The odometer says 45k, but i am guessing that could mean either 145k, or 245k. Or something else entirely. So whats the best quality oil to use on these old trucks?
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http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/index.html
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I run Amsoil in most of our vehicles ( We're dealers for it) and Castrol GTX in the others. I like Amsoil because I found that it reduces the piston slap sound common on LS engines, and has an awesome filter that filters smaller contaminants out. Other than that, I use A/C Delco filters or Hastings filters with the Castrol. I dont use Pennzoil or Quaker State because I have seen engines sludge up using the stuff, and I dont use fram filters because I have pulled the guts ftom one of them on a Cat engine more than once. (Before anyone gets upset about the Penzoil or Quaker State, these cars were city cars that never saw the highway. Experience has shown that vehicles that see moderate highway use dont have the same problem.)
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Thanks for the link vile.
But uh, AMSoil is all synthetic, right? Well snythetic is not supposed to be the best thing for our type of engine. Supposedly. As for the filter, bobistheoilguy.com has done numerous tests and concluded that Puralator, motorcraft, and .... crap i forgot the name but there are 3 best, two of which i never even heard of and motorcraft that i always thought was kinda off brand like GM goodwretch.
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I use 10W-30 Valvoline dino oil and add 4 ounces of GM EOS (for my dose of ZDDP) at every oil change. But I don't have enough miles to tell you if it's working or if it's ruining my cat. For filters I use Wix, ACDelco, or Purolator - never Fram.
I don't think that factory GM flat cams are having nearly the same number of failures that aftermarket cams are. They were MUCH less aggressive than the average aftermarket cam and were accompanied by much lighter springs. If your '87 TBI engine has made it this far on the original cam, I wouldn't worry about it.
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So you are saying that it would probly be fine to run synthetic? I have to make this motor stretch for a year and a half at least lol. It can break after that and i will be able to get a new one. Most if not all of my driving will be city. I wonder if that valvoline max life stuff is any good... Also, what would it take to convert a flat tappet motor to a full roller motor?
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I have run Amsoil in my engines for many years. They all seem to run cooler and smoother. I dont run them in a fresh engine. I wait til about 10,000 miles then switch. I have been told that you can run synthetic in a new motor, but I choose not too. Synthetic is great for older motors. I have pit in 20,000 mile motors and 200,000 plus miles motors, and never had an issue. Not saying Amsoil is the best, it is very good and I havent ever had any trouble. I also like Castrol Syntec. Have seen articles comparing Amsoi to Mobi one, and they are pretty much equal. Amsoil is 25,000 mile or 1 year, and Mobil one is more often. Depends on your preference. On our 01 Silverado it has the magnet in the drain plug. I have seen less particles on the plug at 25,000 miles with Amsoil than I ever did with conventental oils. PLus the Amsoil filters filter out smaller particles out than standard. I believe Amsoil filters are 2-5 micron, Fram, Ac Delco etc are 12 Micron.
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The only thing I'm not sure about is using a full synthetic in any flat-tappet motor. I "heard" somewhere that full synthetics would lubricate too well and prevent the lifters from rotating as they slide across the cam lobes. Seems like a bunch of nonsense, but who knows, maybe there is some truth to it.
Also, what would it take to convert a flat tappet motor to a full roller motor?
For an 87-up block you should have the three drilled and tapped bosses down the middle of the lifter valley. If so, you can use a factory roller lifter set up like this (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=NAL%2D12371042&autoview=sku). If not, you can go with retro-fit lifters like these (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA%2D853%2D16&autoview=sku). Notice the price difference between the two - it pays to have a late model block with provisions for the factory setup. After the lifters are addressed you need to determine whether your block has provisions for a factory style thrust plate (cam retainer) like this (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=NAL%2D10168501&view=1&N=700+150+). If not, you can use a thrust button like this (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA%2D202&autoview=sku) along with a reinforced timing cover, otherwise your cam will walk and your spark timing will be erratic. Also, your pushrods will now be too long and your valvesprings will likely be too light.
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I wouldn't use any of todays dino oil in any flat tappet engine they have taken out most all of the pressure additives (unless like above you add GM's EOS to the oil ) from it. The less expensive route would be to use rotilla or another HD truck oil. I use rotilla on new engines till they are broke in then I use the pennsoil Full syn oil. I use to use Mobil one till Pennsoil came out with the Platium syn oil, its better oil for less monies. For filers I use Napa gold or Wix (same filter)
For more info on oils, additives go to www.bobistheoilguy.com you can spend hours there just reading.
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What exactly do you mean by "dino oil"? do you just mean today's non-synthetics?
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Yes
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Yup
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So by that you also assume that the whole "Synthetic is bad for flat tappet" idea is totally bogus? So i should just be able to run royal purple in my truck if i want to with no problems. The truck is coming up for it's very first oil change since it has been in my hands and i have to decide what oil i am going to stick with. With newer motors its pretty easy lol. You just buy the best grade 4 synthetic that you can afford.
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Royal Purple is very good oil.Go for it.
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wow! i cant believe no one has said Mobil 1!, but building racing mx engines i know that Mobil 1 is what i have always used and never seem to have a problem, conventional oil is bad, fully synthetic is the only way to go
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i use chevron oil just easy to use dos seem to co let water after awhile
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I've been suggested by Crane to run Valvoline VRI or my favorite conventional plus some zinc additive since I'm using one of their cams. They told me VRI to break it in for sure unless I wanna buy that high dollar Joe Gibbs oil, but I have no clue where to get it.
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wow! i cant believe no one has said Mobil 1!
Like I said I use to use mobil one, (What I should have said I used to Buy mobil one) Still do use it. I still have three gallons in stock that I bought 8 years ago I use it in my elcamino only. I buy the Penns Plat Now because it's better and cheaper, besides that EX pres doesn't own part in Pennsoil.
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i use chevron oil just easy to use dos seem to co let water after awhile
???
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Is there any actual info somewhere that can either prove or dismiss the myth of it being bad for flat tappet engines? I have been looking around but all i can come up with is speculations and people who 'heard' it was bad. Anyone know if there is actually any real truth behind this?
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http://www.amsoil.com/frequent.aspx
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According to question number 8 under motor oils with the link you provided, it must be a total myth. The 10W-30 AMSoil that i want to use is 100% synthetic, and that says that it's for use with any engine. And that is a reputable company so i would trust them.
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As a dealer for Amsoil, I have to say I have been more than impressed with their products and service. Alot of people think they have to run the manufacturers oil and filters or it voids the warranty of their vehicles. Harley is the worst. I can tell you this, if any manufacturer tells you you have to run their oil and running Amsoil will void the warranty, tell your local Amsoil dealer, and it will get taken care of. If the warranty requires only the manufacturers oil, they need to provide it free of charge. Amsoil stands by their product, and state if your engine fails due to their product, they will replace it/repair it.
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I run AMsoil in my Harley over the HD oil. It's just a personal preference. The bottom line is this. If your engine is broken in and well maintained without any seriously aggressive camshaft profiles, run Walmart oil if you want. Take my Jeep for example. It has 300,000 + original miles on it using the cheapest crap that I have. I just replaced the rear main seal and oil pan gasket on it finally the other day and when I pulled the main bearing cap down it looked like it had 3,000 miles on it. The best thing to do with modern oils in a high performance situation is retrofit to a roller cam. If you can't afford it and are concerned about premature cam wear Rotella is the most cost effective good oil you run that I am aware of. I wiped my BBC flat cam from using modern conventional oils mainly due to prolonged sitting and lack of lubrication on start up. Now that is rollerized I'm not worried about it or I would have gone to a prelube system.
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I ran the Rotella T 15/40 on my 81 3/4 ton when the 350 was in it for 275,000 miles. When the engine was tore down, it was clean and did not have much cylinder wear suprisingly. But I am picky, my oil was changed every 3000 miles on the dot and used A/C Delco filters exclusively. More about maintenance than type of oil I believe.
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Chop top, we did an expiriment and cut open a bunch of oil filters a few years ago and the AC Delco filters were the worst. I have one cut open in my classroom still. The napa gold brand filter was way better.
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Chop top, we did an expiriment and cut open a bunch of oil filters a few years ago and the AC Delco filters were the worst. I have one cut open in my classroom still. The napa gold brand filter was way better.
Wow, never heard that before. Luckily change doesnt bother me. I have run Hastings, Baldwin, and Wix in the past as well, plus I can get the Wix filters through Amsoil.. How do they measure up? I was told the three were made by the same people, and I think the NAPA gold was too.
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Chop top, we did an expiriment and cut open a bunch of oil filters a few years ago and the AC Delco filters were the worst. I have one cut open in my classroom still. The napa gold brand filter was way better.
napa gold is actually a WIX filter, and is deffinitely the filter of choice
and i agree with chop top on the being libral with your oil changes, with the race bikes i look at a oil change every 5 hours of riding, +- 1 hour, and i can get this 250cc 41.3hp 13:1 comp engine keeping cross hatchings after 4 years of abuse.
and like vile said you can run the cheap stuff, but its about knowing when your oil is A)breaking down and B) time to change it
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Well if you like bobistheoilguy and believe what he has to say, he will say to go with either puralator or motorcraft. The only thing he has to say about puralator is that it may filter too much, causing a slow down in the oil flow. He also says that you got two options when it comes to what kind of oil filter you want. Provided its a good and decent brand, that is. He say you either go for flow (performance) or higher filtration. There is a lot of different opinions out there though, i just tend to try to find someone like him who has done extensive research into the subject. I would never trust Fram, STP, Microguard, or any of those el-cheapos. However there are some out there that are expensive, that may just be full of hot air. For example i have no idea how good the K&N brand oil filter is, but they cost as though they were the best. For example you can get a Wix for 6 bucks but the same K&N is 13 bucks. At least i think. Been a while since i bought this stuff since i just got back into these old trucks fairly recently.
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i use chevron oil just easy to use dos seem to co let water after awhile
???
i meant i use the chevron oil 10w-40 in a blue bottle http://shop.oreillyauto.com/ProductDetail.aspx?MfrCode=CHV&MfrPartNumber=10W40 (http://shop.oreillyauto.com/ProductDetail.aspx?MfrCode=CHV&MfrPartNumber=10W40). i actually get it in one large bottle rather than five separate containers so it is really easy to use. what i have found, however, is that it does collect water after a while, it turns black and becomes a sludge substance. i use a bosch filter.
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So, is it ok for a stockish engine with regular cam to sit around for long periods---days, weeks, even months and then started up with no pre-lubing?
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A dry startup is not good for any engine. It's best if you don't let sit for weeks or months without running.
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Steward If your going to let it sit for along time get a oil filter that has a anti-drainback valve in it. It will help to keep oil in the passages.
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So, the next obvious question is, do/did the AC delco filters have this drainback valve?
b) what other filters have a drainback valve?
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Stewart you can spend the rest of your life trying to figure out who has the best filter and a functional anti drainback design. Google it and read on endlessly. This is why we cut open a bunch of filters to see who's is what's.
http://www.lesabret.com/filters/filter.html
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OK, so it appears that most filters have a drainback valve, but they are not of the same quality.
My problem is the truck may sit for longer than 2 weeks at a time.
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AC delco filters have this drainback valve?
The A/C PF1218 The Wix 1 Qt.51060 The Wix 2 Qt 51794
wixfilters.com
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i use castrol gtx 10w 40. my dad has been running it since he bought the truck in 1987. its got 220,000 miles on it and still runs great.
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Just a heads up; Pepboys is having a special----5 quarts royal purple and a royal purple filter (never heard of it until now) for $49.95.
So i did it; This is for a cavalier.
P.S. i think i get it about the drainback valve because everytime i change the oil on the cavalier, it takes a second for the oil pressure to go from 0 to normal. Whereas whenever i start the engine all other times, the pressure is right there immediately. Now that i think of it, the oil filter on the cavalier is at a 85 or so degree angle to the engine block----so i can't really fill it with that much oil. And that's why it takes a sec to get oil pressure whenever i change it?
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Look into Castrol EDGE, it's new on the market. It's a full synthetic that according to Castrol exceeds the toughest wear standards in the industry. Also this might be more readily available in your area than Amsoil, Royal Purple or Redline.
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Let's take it one step further and discuss exactly how you feel about oil additives such as Prolong, Slick 50 etc.
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Steward,
The only thing I use is GM's EOS I have done some reading over at the forums on www.bobistheoilguy.com and some of the gents over there use that auto RX with good results. They have a whole section there on additives, Check um out.
Steve
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Well, i am using my first trial of AMSoil with a Wix filter. The truck does seem to idle and run a little smoother. Course i guess that could be just a new oil change, as i have no idea what was in it before i changed it this time. I have only had it for about 8 months, and most of that time it has been in the shop for one thing or another. AMSoil seems to be pretty confident that it will not harm anything, they say they will pay to have the engine replaced if it does.