73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Engine/Drivetrain => Topic started by: exilous on April 28, 2009, 09:41:13 pm
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ok so my donor truck is a 1978 c30 with as far as i kno an original 350 to the truck. i havent looked for any numbers cause its just so thick with dirt and oil. ill wait until it comes out and after i clean it and ill post up numbers. i did compression check awhile back and if i recall correctly i was well within %5 on all 8 cylinders. The module int eh distributor is bad so when it stays running for long it shuts off and wont start again. and it makes great deal of valve noise mainly on the passenger side. I took a video of it at an idle and you can clearly hear the clacking and clattering if you know what to listen for that is. other than that the carb will need a rebuild. I'm definetly not looking to break the bank here. My dad being a mechanic just told me to do a couple gaskets maybe a camshaft timing chain and rebuild the carb then put it in my truck. With my luck I will put it in the truck and throw a rod then i'll be pissed. my folks are away on vacation right now so i have the whole shop to myself i can get everything done so pretty much I'm on my own and ive never done this before but i've watched my dad a lot I should be able to handle this stuff. what would you fellas suggest me do and or look at while im in there. I'm going to be putting the engine on the stand hopfully tomorrow mornin first thing.
My orginal plan was to do a complete teardown of this 350 and rebuild it with a little more low end torque and stuff but I also dove way too far into the whole C30 project then I anticipated. I didn't want to half-ass the project I want somethign that will last so its costing me more than I would like.
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new crank seals and oil pump along with valve seals I would consider manditory.
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If you're pulling the engine I would at the least do a cheap rebuild on it. Summit sells a complete engine kit for the 350 for $200 bucks.
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Ok I got some numbers off the block and the heads...and when i decided to move the engine on the stand i grabbed the crank and pushed and the crank moved...it moves in and out about 1/8 of an inch...its not supposed to do that is it? I will continue tearing the engine down either tonight or tomorrow...
NUmbers are B on the top then WER 21014. same number on both heads.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/xylus/100_0130.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/xylus/100_0136.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/xylus/100_0137.jpg)
GM 3970010
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/xylus/100_0143.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/xylus/100_0144.jpg)
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Yeah an 1/8" of end play on a crank is not good. Plan on doing a crank kit. At that point you really would be foolish to not just rebuild it and do it right. Send it out to get cleaned and magnafluxed, if it passes the magnaflux check then find out if it needs to go .030" over or more. Order the kit from Summit, Jegs or Northern Auto Parts. Northern's kit is around $180 and includes pistons, cam, lifters, rings, oil pump, gaskets, freeze plugs, timing chain, valve seals, main rod and cam bearings.
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Ya I kinda assumed that...I know by the pic you couldnt tell the 1/8th of an inch cause of the camera angle and stuff but just by look and feel it wasnt good... that makes me very unhappy. the thing ran good too. now i'm very disappointed.
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If you end up replacing the crank, you'd be crazy not to make it a 383. ;)
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383 wouldnt be a bad idea BUT i have now undergone picking a fixed budget due to no one is buying parts off my parts vehicles and ive also dove much deeper into this project than i really wanted to. Fixing one thing leads to fixing another then before you know it the cab is off and your doing the frame stuff too. I really wasnt expecting this. But then again it happens. And the 350 that is currently in my dump truck has a decent crank I'm pretty sure. so i can take that one if im in desperate need. dang now you have me thinking...how much more would it actually cost? I would be leaving the the cast heads and cast intake on it. My dad has a valve machine so we can do the valve job here so factor that out. How much would it cost to turn my 350 into a 383 just a rough estimate if anyone has some sort of number for me.
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It depends on the amount of and cost of the machine work. You can get a kit from northern auto parts with crank for around $700.
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Ehh im still thinking it over what I really want to do. in the meantime I had 3 people call me for parts so I'm not only dismantling the 78 C30 but I need to drop the engine trans and a few fenders off some of my blazers. Gotta have the order filled by saturday mornin...gonna be tough then once i get some cash in ill see how the funds look and go from there. Cause parts arent selling so when i get a call i hop up on it...ill keep you guys posted on what i do i may go for a 383, but i came across a k5 blazer with a 6.2 diesel in it for $400 guy says it runs and has a plow but the body is completely rotted...i may go that route not sure yet...so many ideas...
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Bro with so much going on and the fact that your not looking to run a 15 in the Quarter why not just buy a short block ready to go. With what it will cost to re-work your current block you will have spent more than the cost of a Short block. I will send you a set of heads if it came down to that and all you would have to do is pay to ship them. Go the easy route bro. New engine no worries. Alot of guys are gonna say dont do that. I build my own and have bought many short blocks for people and installed for them. Never any issues. Weigh all options.
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ya I have a lot to figure out this will be my first engine build.before i got deep into the cab and stuff of the project which i hadnt planned on doing i wanted to build a nice little performance engine nothing ridiculous.mostly just the upper part of the engine. I picked up this whole project to learn and figure stuff out so i made just rebuild the engine as a learning experience.i will definetly put some thought into a short block though.
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If you want help with the engine let me know. I'm not too far from you.
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Uhm well i cleaned the engine up a bit today and i rolled it over and popped off the oil pan. The good news, i was blessed with a 4 bolt main. The bad news, well where to start i drained the oil it had metal in it i popped the pan and first thing i noticed was the crank has been slammin around for some time now and wore into the main caps and into the crank counter weights whatever they are called. I popped the main cap and the bearing in the cap is completely copper colored with very heavy grooves in it and it made big grooves in the crank. And there was metal on the walls and gunk and build up and dirt and it was nasty in there. I will get some pics shortly i literally just finished out there and came in to get my camera ill get some pics up in a few hours I'm going to tear a few more things off before i come back in...wish me luck.
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Bro..... You can stop what your doing. two choices. Junk it or prepare to spend some cash.
Go with a new short block and use this as a core.
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Wow, Im sorry about that. If I was you I would go find another 350 to build up since they are fairly cheap. I'm like you and don't have the money to buy a new motor right now. Ive also never tore apart a small block before so its all a new learning experience. In the mean time, your doing a great job on your truck. I love your other post.
Andy
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Don't freak out yet. You can easily have the crank ground and if it's beyond repair a crank kit is only $100 bucks. Once the crank is out check the main bearing bore alignment. Like I said if you want help just ask.
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Well I do have another 350 I can see how bad that one is once I open that one up. Oh and I found part of a piston skirt when i dropped the pan it was stuck in the pan... Here are some pics nonetheless.
The Middle main
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/xylus/100_0188.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/xylus/100_0189.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/xylus/100_0190.jpg)
The end main Next to the balancer
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/xylus/100_0192.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/xylus/100_0193.jpg)
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That baby has got some miles on it.......
Do what serves you best bro....
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I've seen a lot worse than that!
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I agree with vile I've seen much worse than that. I'm willing to bet the rear bearing is pretty much torn up as well since that is the thrust bearing. But a new crank fixes that easily and they are fairly cheap as vile says. As far as the piston skirt goes that is easily replaced with a master rebuild kit which for that is around $180. Hit a swap meet for an aftermarket intake and your good to go. I thought you said this was a decent running motor?
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for our 4 bolt with the same casting number I got the crank and bearings for 99.99 cant remember if it was autozone or advance auto
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Ya the engine ran good, had a little valve noise but i figured it just need to ge the lash adjusted.. I did a bunch of pricing out on summits website. I did a few differnt setups.buying a whole rotating assembly and then a cam and stuff that route was like $800. Then I and priced out a crank cam timing set and rummit rebuilt kit and it came to 695. So I don't think that is horrible.I would get everythign to drop right in easy for 700 and whatever shipping would be. Although, my dads best friend owns a machine shop so i'm sure I can have some fun there. I gotta wait for my dad to get home and see what he can do between him and his friend.I've been teaching myself about cams i've been doing tons of research so I now need to go pick myself out a cam. Cause I think im just going to leave everythign else the same, rebuild the carb and maybe buy an aftermarket intake, i'm not sure yet. What kind of difference does lets just go with i dunno an Edelbrock Performer intake do compare to the stock cast iron intake? Is it like a large difference or is it minimal besides the weight difference? Sorry if I'm asking stupid questions im still learnin here. haha
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You can get a master overhaul budget kit with pistons for $200 bucks from summit. Add a double roller timing chain, cam and lifters maybe freshen up with some new tins and get a cheap dual plane intake you'll be under $500 bucks. Grind the crank, reface the valves and seats and you'll be in a budget of under $1k
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ya we can do the valves and seats here at home. I did see that master rebuild kit thats what I used in the second way I priced it. I think the cheapest crank there was like $190 and the cam was like$170 it was a comp cam i just picked that no reason just to get an estimate of a middle of the road cam that was above stock.
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http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=SUM%2DK1103&autoview=sku
$89
Just have the crank ground.
Here's a cheap dual plane. Are you going to run EGR?
http://www.kmjent.com/cart/product.php?productid=1891
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No, i wanna keep the engine as simple as possible. just a few wires and thats it. Cause that ugly mess under the hood of my 85 is disgusting especially since it has the dual pump A.I.R. system on it. It's like the engine has a cancerous growth.
Does anyone know what my stock 78 350 would have been making for horsepower? Low 200s? I found a couple articles that said it might be 185 but I figured i'd ask the pros here.
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185hp sounds about right. Here is a 383 kit for $660 with the crank. http://www.northernautoparts.com/ProductDetail.cfm?ProductId=2993
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Factory output for 1978 was 165hp and 260lb/ft.
I agree, that doesn't look that bad, just really worn out.
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Wow thats lower than I thought.Well either way when I'm done with it I will be crankin a bit more than that. At least I hope I will. I found a realy cool looking cap and rotor that I might get just for the heck of it. It's clear.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380111767921&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&viewitem=
Check that out.
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yeah those are cool. I have one on my 85
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So it isnt crappy made it actually lasts a little while?
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ok so i had my dad check out the engine I still need to pull the heads adn that stuff to get a good analysis from him but the local machine shops around here are a bunch of &$%! he is waiting on a crank he sent out 4 months ago to get reground he still hasnt heard from them. So he told me just to buy a new one.once i pull the heads and drop the pistons out he will assess the rest of the damage but he seems to think it just has very high miles on it. So I will hopefully get a better idea of what kind of price I will be looking at tomorrow. I will keep yall posted.
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I use eastwoods automachine in Somers. They are real good guys and do excellent work.
The cap and rotor I put on is still on my truck since I built the engine a few years ago.
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ok I might have to give them a check and see whats up. depends on how the rest of the engine looks when i tear it down i did notice today once the rest of the oil had drained off the pistons i counted 4 other pistons were cracked along the skirts. what would be the cause of all that? that can't be common can it? or is it just because it has very high mileage?
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Let's see how the top of the pistons look first. Piston slap, detonation, wrong pistons, excessive thrust and foreign material are the most probable causes.
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ok ill see if i can't get some pics up tomorrow of the combustion chambers and the tops of the pistons while they are in the engine.
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ok here are the pics i promised yall. i noticed on cylinder 4 looks like it had some valve damage at somepoint. i didnt notice anything bent or damaged on the valve or pushrod which makes me think the engine was either rebuilt at one time or they did some head work or something. another thing the head gaskets were felpro gaskets, did gm use felpro gaskets from the factory? im not sure but i wouldnt think they would. either way here are the pics.
Cylinders 1357
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/xylus/100_0209.jpg)
cylinder 7
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/xylus/100_0210.jpg)
head from cylinders 1357
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/xylus/100_0211.jpg)
Combustion chamber for cylinder 5
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/xylus/100_0212.jpg)
cylinder 4 notice the "bite mark"
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/xylus/100_0226.jpg)
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ok i pulled the rest of the engine apart everything is heavily worn. deep grooves in a lot of bearings and stuff. when i started popping the pistons out every single piston was cracked. #4 was the one that lost part of its skirt to the oil pan but when i pulled #8 and #6 out from the skirt down to the first ring was cracked and those chunks fell out the only thing holding them in there was being in the cylinder. Why would this happen? is it a bad casting for the pistons? is it just a GM thing?or is it just because it is that worn? i will get some pics up later tonight of all the cracked pistons.
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Looks like it was just well overworked. Time to breathe it new life.
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well last night i spent quite a few hours pricing everything out via a few different sites adn i found everythingi could possibly need for a pretty good price. I came up with $1400 plus a hundred here and there for small things like cam bearings and i havent picked rockers yet. everything is rounded up at least 10 bucks for shipping and all that stuff so im not completely shocked. but the list includes:
http://kmjent.com/cart/product.php?productid=1528&cat=20164535&page=1
https://secure.pawengineparts.com/shoppingcart/ShowItem.cfm?itemid=63179&catid=
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=SUM%2DK1101&autoview=sku I figure the cam would give me some good low end i am not lookin to be speeding down the highway, its going to be a work truck. What I am mainly looking for is decent torque with a good midrange. I'm not 100% clear with cams i know the jist of things but would this do the job for me?
http://kmjent.com/cart/product.php?productid=498&cat=20164586&page=1
http://kmjent.com/cart/search.php?mode=search&page=1
http://kmjent.com/cart/product.php?productid=1758&cat=20164542&page=1
I need to find a stud kit and and i would have no idea what kind I would need, i don't think i would need roller rockers but i dont know. Seem like a good set of parts that I compiled? And has anyone run patriot heads before? just want to hear some reviews before i make the purchase on everything.
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I would personally go one step larger on the cam, even if all you are looking for is low-end/midrange.
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=SUM%2DK1102&autoview=sku
Also, another member here used a ZOOM timing set and it had incorrect markings which caused the cam to be installed very retarded, resulting in serious drivabilty issues.
http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?topic=11271.45
An entry-level Cloyes timing set isn't much more.
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CLO%2DC%2D3023X&autoview=sku
Comp Cams Magnum roller-tipped rockers are a nice upgrade over stock stamped rockers for about $150. The roller tips reduce valve side-loading, thus increasing valveguide life (not a real issue with smaller cams). Also, they are much stiffer than stock which results in higher valve lift, even in stock ratios.
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thanks for the warning on the timing set. i took a look at the link i will definetly upgrade to the cloyes setup. id rather not have to pull my engine apart again to move 6 teeth over. id rather do it once.
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It think you can do a lot better on pricing and you will be disappointed for what you spend and what you get out of your selection. Go through and read on some of the budget builds and suggestions already made.
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The engine I am building for the blazer is right now at about 1400 with the machine work. It should be around 350 hp and almost 400 ft lbs of torque all I have left to buy is the carb
Look at Ebay for some of the parts (new only)
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Not at least checking out Northern Auto Parts is also a big mistake. I have bought several kits through them and with them you can choose what upgrades you want for each part involved. The best part is they only charge the difference in cost between the 2 parts.
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good quality through them? good people to deal with? I will check them out
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What do you guys think about ebay rebuild kits? I've been lookin at a few and watching some on ebay and they don't seem bad, its free shipping which is good and its not a bad price.Im definetly looking into buying this first one here.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190295190236&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&viewitem=
So what do you guys think of that? There are others out there that seem to be pretty good but i don't know i've never bought engine stuff off ebay before. My buddy did and he hasnt had a problem with his engine so i dunno im up in the air on this one.
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Looks like a good kit with alot of name brand components. I dont think Id be scared of it. Maybe someone else has a different opinion.
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Actually I bought a kit off eBay once that came with a free t-shirt. It turned out to be Northern Auto Parts which had I known I would have just gone to them and gotten the upgrades I wanted. To your questions about them, yes good quality stuff and really good people to deal with over the phone. Besides it seems unlike Jegs and Summit who are all about racing Northern seems to be more into trucks and daily drivers though they have the race stuff too. Just have your rear gear ratio and tire size available when you call so they can match you up with the proper cam. You can ask what upgrade is available for every single part and they will not only tell you but give you the price and let you know if its a waste of money for your application.
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I wouldn't bother with the ebay deal since you can get the same deal from summit and get a garuntee on everything. Not only that but summit says they'll beat anyones price and I've had them do it before.
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Ok screw engine building man im so pissed right now. my dad finally got around to getting me his tools and we set to work measuring the bores. He informed me on the pistons it shows what it is bored to. come to find out the pistons were already 30 over. we measured the pistons they were at .025 our readings on the cylinder walls were in a range from .034 to .038...the bore clearance is supposed to be .0012. he thinks judging by the readings the whole length of each cylinder that boring it to 40 over wont be able to true up the walls enough to allow for 40 over pistons so i may have to go with 60 overs. so not only did the engine wear out the stock shoot but it completely wore out the rebuild shoot. So now im back to the drawing board. I don't know whether its worth it or not to bore it to 60 over. or should i just push pause on that engine and take my other 350 thats in my truck tear that down and see what that would need. i already know that engine is a remanufactured engine and it has a dead cylinder. I'm so unhappy about this whole situation right now its a bit ridiculous. heck im even thinking about just taking my runnign 305 painting it and putting that in there im so unhappy. haha.
Here is my current list of engines i can use:
350 4 bolt torn down already been bored over.
350 reman dead cylinder 5
305 carb unknown mileage but it runs
305 tbi unknown mileage its on its last leg the oil is getting shiny.
i just need some ideas on what i should do.
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There's nothing wrong with .060" over. That's nothing to get bent about.
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not to mention they can be resleeved which is also nothing to get bent about, .060" over just means its the last overbore before resleeving it
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i dunno im just bent that instead of doing a quick rebuilt on the thing now i have to send it out to a machine shop spend more to get it bored and all that time i dunno.
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I have yet to rebuild an engine without sending it to the machine shop. You can't just throw in new parts and think its going to run ok. The cylinders have to be bored to a point where they no longer have any taper.New cam bearings should be installed as well as freeze plugs and oil galley plugs. Resurfacing of the decks will make for a good head gasket seal. That would be the minimum machine work for any rebuild. Magnafluxing is a good idea to check for cracking and balancing is also a good idea. The heads are going to need some time in the machine shop as well if not for the very least to have the gasket surface milled smooth. Of course anytime you send something to the machine shop they give it a good cleaning before they even start. In the future anytime you think of rebuilding a motor you need to think at the very least you will need to send it out to get cleaned up and punched out.
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.060" over is no big deal
Unless you plan to make 600 hp
Get a set of these and do it right
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/350-CHEVY-Speed-Pro-Flat-Top-Pistons-H345NP-5-7-Rod-60_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem588123c397QQitemZ380123726743QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
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My 350 is 60-over and I'm fine with that. Yeah I know another rebuild that requires a boring isn't possible without sleeving but no big deal. Like you said though, you're not happy about dropping a few hundred at a machine shop. These kinds of builds always seem to increase a budget about 50-100% by the time you are done.
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I have no problem bring it to a machine shop to do some of the smaller stuff like milling and cleaning.Big boring we can't do at my dads shop he doesnt have the tooling for it. Honing and small boring we can do thats why i was kind of unhappy about it. Either way it has to be done I suppose. I ordered the pistons and rings through summit they should be in by wednesday if not thursday so I'm kind of excited about that. Right now the engine was emptied I pressure washed it then we put it in our citrus acid tank to slowly clean up so its easier for the machine shop. Hopefully thursday or friday the engine will be at the machine shop getting work done. Once i get some more funds I will order everything else for the engine and get some pics up of the build. just dropped $450 into front end parts so I can completely rebuild that. although i still need calipers and seals so I'm not done spending in that department. :-\
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Off topic, but does boring 60 over add a little HP/torque? At least you will be getting something out of it if you do end up having to do that.
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Ya and it also depends on what type of pistons whether dished or domed how much valve relief is cut into the pistons and the chamber size but seeing as how I am most likely leaving the top end stock it should increase my horsepower a bit.
Speaking of that anyone know the stock chamber size on my 78 350? Would it be in the 70s? just wondering
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Got any farther on your project yet? I am considering going out and getting a junkyard block and starting something a build. Post new pics if you got em!
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Nope nothing as of yet...waiting on the block at the machine shop. Hope to get it back this week. Once I do then I can start assembly and ordering the rest of the parts I'll keep you all posted on it.