73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Engine/Drivetrain => Topic started by: Stewart G Griffin on July 20, 2009, 04:57:30 pm
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Part one:
What are the chances that a beginner who, not only, has never done a heli-coil job, but barely understands the theory behind it, do a successful job at repairing one of the starter mount holes on the engine block WHILE the engine is installed in a truck-chassis----the engine will not be removed for this procedure, would be sucessful at repairing this hole?
Or should the person send the truck to a shop?
OR
Should the person consider an aftermarket type starter of the type that has the mounting bolt holes in-line vs. staggered? The stripped bolt hole on the engine block is the one in the staggered position.
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If you can drill a hole straight it is an easy thing to do. I did my first and only one on my 53 Ford Jubilee tractor, and it was fairly easy to do.
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use duct tape
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did my first and only on an aluminum head from a spark plug that shot out while i was driving it. no problem to do it. no drilling is required just make sure u use the right kit.
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I would skip the helicoil route
and install one of these
A genuine Hitachi
not a copy or a chinese clone.
I installed one in my old Camaro and it works great
http://www.cnc-motorsports.com/product.asp?ProdID=22227
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Hitachi-Mini-Starter-PSL100-Chevy-Brand-New_W0QQitemZ110273370780QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item19acce1a9c&_trksid=p4506.m20.l1116
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i am heavily leaning that way and considering one.
i wonder why hitachi makes this one part for the sbc but no others? Why did they concentrate only on starters---for a chevy v-8 at that?
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Doing a heli-coil is pretty straight forward and easy. Just follow the directions.
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use duct tape
Don't forget the tie-wire make sure to get a few loops around the solenoid and stuff.
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OK, i think i'm finally going to try to helicoil the affected hole. Yes, i'm a little slow (mentally and otherwise).
1) i would ask that comments such as "use duct tape," "use tie-wire," and other comments that are irrelevent to the topic be witheld until the problem is over and taken care of. Thank you for your cooperation.
2) What are the ALL the different sizes(if any) of starter bolts used on the SBC?
i've heard that there are actually several different sizes used, and if it helps mine is a 78 305.
3) What EXACT size helicoil kit should i get?
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http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/(sokm3vqi4oof3j55bhmggbyd)/productdetails.aspx?sku=85767&source=GoogleBase
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OK, sooo.........what size drill should i use? And do i even need a drill?
It may seem like i'm asking redundant and simple questions, but basically i'm not real confident when working on engines.
Also, i guess/ASSume that all starter bolts for SBCs (all of them) are 3/8 coarse thread?
i greatly appreciated the help but,
Detail man, i need detail.
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You don't always NEED to drill before tapping (especially when dealing with very soft metals), but in this case you should. The kit will include recommendations on drill bit size. Heli-coils are really easy to use. The included instructions are very clear, but it's so simple instructions really aren't necessary.
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i think i'm going to try a thread chaser first since the treads are still there and i can give it full 7 turns before popping and yes it's taken me this long because of bs going on at work. And yes, i did take the starter out and actually looked at the affected hole and drew my conclusion based on a visual examination of this hole.
So, where can i get a chaser besides mail order; i know jeg's/summit etc. have them but i was wondering about other retail such as harbor freight, sears, lowe's etc. since i want to take care of the problem asap which i know does not seem like it, but my other issue(s) has been taken care of for now, so now i can finally get to the truck. Going mail order means waiting 3 or more days, which if have to do, i will do.
a) The tool section keeps disapearing from the menu for some reason? i would have posted this there.
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Well if you find the correct thread repair kit, you will need to drill and tap the holes if some threads remain. The internal threads of the thread repair insert should match what was originally there. The external threads will of course be larger and should match the tap used. The only time I have used a thread repair kit and not drilled the hole before tapping was when I was working with aluminum that had completely stripped out to essentially a smooth bore.
So a chaser would not work here. But something like a thread restorer kit is handy to have for cleaning up threads. I use mine all the time.
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00942275000P?keyword=thread+restorer
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I have been there and done that on the stripped tread thing. If chasing the threads doesn't help, which I'm thinking it won't since the threads are more than likely pulled, you will need a 3/8-16 heli-coil kit. The drill bit size is 25/64. Raise the front up so you will have plenty of room to get a straight shot at the hole. Jack stands and some sort of eye protection are a must for the installation! Once the old threads are drilled out, thread the coil on the installation tool, put a drop of red loc-tite on the outside threads of the coil, screw it in, insert something in the hole to break off the inside tang, and your ready to go.
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Cogged, you forgot about the tapping out the drilled hole part. After you drill it you tap it to an oversize to accept the heli-coil, then you thread the insert in.
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Oops, guess I got ahead of myself :-[. Yeah, you're right about that. I hate typing because I hardly proof read to make sure what I'm thinking and putting into words are on the same page.
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Well, to confuse the issue further (i do this ALL THE TIME), i got the starter off 2 wks ago (then some other bs cropped up so i couldn't work on the truck, but now i can) and here is the affected hole alone with the unused "parallel" hole for starters that use the parallel bolt mounting pattern:
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/021.jpg)
To further complicate matters (that's me!), As you can see, there are still threads in the hole that i'm having trouble with, so that's why i'm thinking the chaser idea might work. See, i'm concerned about the helicoil in that you will notice that the starter bolt holes threads don't actually start at the edge flush with the part of the block where the starter mounts to; They actually start about 1/4 inch into the hole and i think that is for the knurled part of the starter bolts to rest in to align the starter. With helicoil and re-tap, i'm afraid we will probably lose this tapered area.
a) So does anyone know of any retail, brick and mortar type store that sell thread chasers? i know the mail order places do, but in this case it's sort of about expediency. i was going to call harbour freight, but, and i'm not putting down in any way employees of harbor freight stores, but i'm afraid they won't know what i'm talking about which is understandable because i didn't know what a thread chaser was until 2 days ago when i did more research on this topic.
2) To even further complicate matters, i discovered that with the parallel bolt hole, the starter bolt will not fit.
P.S. i know about all the grease and i'm not proud of it and i apologize, but i guess in my haste to install the engine, i guess i didn't "see" it. Besides, the engine runs great.
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A heli-coil will work just fine. You can put the heli-coil in as deep as you want.
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Kind'a looks like there is no hope with the stripped hole. Afraid chasing it won't fix the problem. Guess that leaves you with 2 options.... around 10 bucks or so to heli-coil it, or drop around $150.00 for a hitachi or tilton starter. I have used a heli-coil in the exact same hole as yours for several years without any problems. They are actually as strong or stronger than the original threads. It's always alittle scary sometimes doing something your not sure how to do. I hesitate at times myself. On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 the easiest. I would rate the job a 2, only because I hate lying on my back with my arms in the air ;D. Seems like your almost there now since apparently it's already jacked up since you have the starter off. 10 more minutes with the drill and tap, and you are done. You can do it!!
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And at least if you screw up the $10 heli-coil installation, you can then drop the $150 on the other starter and you know it has a good hole to work with.
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Yeah, i think jeg's has one of those types of starters, their brand, going for $139. i don't know who manufactures it.
i think i'm going to try the helicoil as soon as i finish holiday shopping----if anyone thinks there's a ressession they need to go to the mall---if they can find any parking.
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This is turning out to be more complicated than it orginally appeared (why does this ALWAYS happen?).
Where do you suggest getting a 25/64 drill bit? Lowe's had them, but it was in a kit costing $64. They didn't have them seperately. Home depot no luck.
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http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=219826-67702-728068G
allot of times they just don't put it on the self cause it doesn't sell that much and if its taking up shelf space its waisting money in other words look on line you can find more than in the stores and you save gas money you just have to wait. but that site might not help you go here also
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/search_10153_12605?keyword=25%2F64&vName=
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Thanks for the link---it's saying there is one in stock at the local sears, which is the one store i didn't check.
Believe me, i'm into the whole gas saving thing---i was already out running errands and decided to pop in the hardware stores. But i see what you are saying.
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I personally dont like shopping in stores if I can get away from it, plus dont have the time normally. Lately, online shopping has been my friend.
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I had a parts truck years and the engine was cracked in that spot. The P.O. installed an Autozone rebuilt 350 and never installed the started bracket. After awhile the starter came loose and cracked the block.
I pulled the motor and put it in the back of my truck and took it down to a welding shop. He charged me $75 to weld a stud in there. I ran that motor in my 79 Jimmy for a few years after that.
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Stewart, my motto has always been "don't let not knowing how to do something stop you from doing it." Sounds kinda corny but that's how we learn. Good luck Bud.
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OK, chaser didn't work----apparently threads were too far gone.
So, i just bit the bullet and went for it----i helicoiled it and so far everything seems ok----the bolt now holds 25+lbs., where at last test the bolt would only screw in like 2 times and then pop out.
Not the best picture:
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/0262.jpg)
The only problem i ran into was, as you can see, this particular affect hole is close to the oilpan which meant i really couldn't use the "T" handle for the tap in the conventional way; i had to reposition it often and most of the time i could only use one bar of the handle. This concerned me, but apparently as the tap goes in, it pretty much goes in straight.
Closing concerns:
1) What would cause threads, especially starter bolt hole threads to strip?
2) (may tie in with #1) What torque settings for starter bolts on a SBC do you recommend? One of my books says 35lbs.
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Glad to see you attacked your problem and won. That wasn't as hard as you thought was it :). As for the stripping, the cause in most cases is cross threading or over-tightening. 30-35 lbs. is about right for the torque. Too much more and you risk cracking or breaking the nose of the starter. For future reference, if you ever come across the need to use a tap again and are having issues with using the tap handle because of lack of space, get a nut that is almost big enough to fit on the end of the tap and drive it on. Be gentle tho as they are some what brittle and can't take much hitting. I usually put mine in the vise with the point cushioned and press it in. That way a socket and extention can be used in those hard to get to spots.
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As far as what could cause it to strip, if the bolt was loose, the vibration and torque would eventually breaks them due to the constant pounding and vibration. (picture a hammer and a punch beating on the,) as far a how much to torque them to, I am no good there, I just tighten them up. Many years of wrenching has taught me tight, may not be right, but have never had a failure.
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Yeah it wasn't as hard as i thought and in fact was quite easy; Reinstalling the starter back in was actually harder!
The other thing i ended up doing with the tap so close to an obstruction was i used a gatorgrip socket on it and it worked well, maybe too well as i will probably post in the tool section---it's stuck.