73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => 73-87 Chevy & GMC Trucks => Topic started by: gold84gmc on January 09, 2010, 07:18:25 am
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i cant start my diesel because the batteries are too dead, so i was wondering if i could run it temorarily with one battery? because im going to get one new battery and was going to put the new one in and take out the other one so that only the new battery is in
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im having trouble starting my gmc diesel with a 6.2, when i start it, it seems like the batteries are too dead to be able to start, so today i went and bought a new battery, put it in and tried starting it, and it still wouldnt start, so i took a battery out of another car that we have with a good battery and put it in my truck and still wont start, right now i have the charger on it but its only a small charger(isnt on wheels) to see if that helps
how long does it take the engine block heater to warm up?
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You have dual batteries?
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yes...one is new and the other one isnt new but it has a good charge
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Dual batteries should always be replaced in pairs of smake like and kind. Just keep that in mind. Put a volt meter on both batteries. They should read the same. Crank the engine and see what the voltage reading drops to.
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The batteries need to be big enough to crank it over fast enough. MINIMUM 750 cranking amps. I personally wouldn't put anything on with less than 900. Any cold weather at all will drag down anything but the biggest batteries.
If they are good then clean the terminals and cables real good with wire brush. A poor connection anywhere will lose a LOT of starting amperage. If the engine has much wear it needs to have as much cranking speed as possible to start. It's amazing how much easier these engines start when they turn over nice and fast.
Block heater should heat the engine up to 60* or more in a few hours.
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ok well i left my block heater plugged in for about 2 hours and got the truck to start, but then i had to go to work so i couldnt do anything else to it, and im leaving it plugged in over night so hopefully tomorrow i can get it started
everytime i try starting it the battery cables keep coming loose on their own, when they were tight before i turned over the engine, can i put lock tight or any washers or anything on there to keep them from coming loose?
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Are they side mount cables? what condition are the terminal and wire threads?
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might need to replace the bolt.
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yes i have side posts
everything looks fine, they thread in fine and come out fine, they come lose after cranking the engine
my dad told me to put lock washers on(the kind with "teeth" around the edge)
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Are there glow plugs or an intake heater and are they functional?
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use a 3/8x16 short bolt with the appropriately spaced star washers so the bolt is tight and the cables are tight.
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Are there glow plugs or an intake heater and are they functional?
every diesel has glow plugs, and i dont know about an intake heater...as far as i know the glow plugs work because the light comes on on the dash and then goes out when theyre warmed up
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Are there glow plugs or an intake heater and are they functional?
every diesel has glow plugs,
Not true.
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oh my bad i thought they did
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ok so i left my block heater plugged in throughout the night last and i tried starting my truck, it started right up the first try, then it stalled and i couldnt get it started again, so im leaving it plugged in tonight again and try to start it tomorrow...im just guessing its not starting because of the cold
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Why wouldnt it start after it stalled? Would the starter and engine turn or would the starter click?
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it seems like they batteries had enough power to turn it over quickly enough the first time then after it didnt turn over as quick so i couldnt get it started
also is the starter supposed to make a high pitched noise when im cranking the engine, because sometimes when im cranking it, the starter makes this high pitched noise
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noise like a squeal or grind. eather way no i would change that. as far as the bat not having enough juice to turn her over i would think about what bat you have they shouldn't have a problem in less its cranking for a couple min then dies
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no its not grinding or squealing, its a high pitched noise, its like an electronic noise, almost sounds like its having a hard time turning over the engine
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So right now it won't run?
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if i can get it started it runs for like 10-15 seconds then it stalls...thats the most ive gotten out of it so far...eather way i cant run it too long because the water pump is bad
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I've only driven a couple of diesels, an '83 and a 2000. Are you letting the glow plugs warm up before you try to start it? Have you tried some sort of anti-gel in the tank?
My thinking, in addition to a bad battery and questionable starting system, (I don't know the condition of cables, starter, etc) the glow plugs "should" be also pulling juice. (and I haven't seen any mention of them yet)
The anti-gel, it's been cold here, (I did see -10f on my thermometer the other morning.) The block heater does nothing for the fuel tank(s).
Just some thoughts I'd mention.
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ya im letting the glow plugs warm up, i put a voltmeter on the batt's and theyre both 11.8v and one of them is new, but no i havent tried anti-gel but thats what i was going to try next
i think its not turning over fast enough to start, ive had a couple people tell me that the starter is bad and causing it not to spin as fast as it should...but with the batteries being 11.8v i would guess that its because of them not the starter
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We just got a 98 chevy diesel running that was doing the same thing as yours. The truck came from CT with no fuel additive put in it. The guy never plugged it in either. Was about -20 here in northern NH and that poor old diesel never had a chance. He was boosting and cranking for about 2 days till we dragged it into the nice and warm garage overnight, the next day we changed the fuel filter just because he never had and put some additive in his fuel. It fired right up.
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Gold, seeing as you have to get a new water pump anyways, take the starter with you and have it tested.
While you are removing it, you have a chance at looking at the connections, etc.
May as well start a shopping list... ;)
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We just got a 98 chevy diesel running that was doing the same thing as yours. The truck came from CT with no fuel additive put in it. The guy never plugged it in either. Was about -20 here in northern NH and that poor old diesel never had a chance. He was boosting and cranking for about 2 days till we dragged it into the nice and warm garage overnight, the next day we changed the fuel filter just because he never had and put some additive in his fuel. It fired right up.
gelled up fuel wouldnt cause it to turn over slow would it? i just bled the fuel system today,it had quite a bit of air, so now i need to get it to start
Gold, seeing as you have to get a new water pump anyways, take the starter with you and have it tested.
While you are removing it, you have a chance at looking at the connections, etc.
May as well start a shopping list... ;)
i dont have to get another water pump because it came with a new one, but if i dont get it started soon then i will have the starter tested anyways
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how do you hook up jumper cables on vehicles with dual batteries, for example you have to vehicles with dual batteries, the dead car and the jumper car, how do you hook up the jumper cables?
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We got an ex U-haul at work that ticked me off for a while. I charged on battery and jump the other. Always fired right up.
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Btw I have no idea if that's the correct way. It kept discharging batteries, so charging took 4 hours, and doing both, well, 5 minutes.
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just cause the bats are sitting at 11 volts don't mean nothing you have to see what they are sitting on under a load, anything below i think 10v should be charged if that don't fix the drop then they should be replaced. and in a dual bat setup one feeds off the other meaning if one is week it will kill the other
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so do both batteries have to be the same CCA's? and i noticed yesterday that the new battery that i got is 730 CCA's, the computer at pepboys said it was for my truck.
so if the main battery is fully charged, but the secondary one is pretty low, it will kill or drain the main one?
and my block is working because i can feel the heat from it
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I am sure out there on the internet there is a procedure for checking the glow plugs individually (resistance I think) and also a procedure for bleeding the fuel system.
As for glow plugs an indirect injected diesel can have them but a direct injected diesel to my knowledge will not have a glow plug due to the construction of the engine (no precombustion chamber). They can have a small heater plug that ignites a small amount of fuel to warm the intake air like some small Perkins engines, or an intake heater grid like a 3116/3126 cat or a 6BT cummins. Or they may have nothing.
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Yes the bad bat can drain the good.
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It sounds like it gets fuel initially and then dies. I just serviced my 6.2 and changed the fuel filter. It would do the same thing as yours. I turned it over for about 10 seconds and then I would bleed the air out. I did this 5-6 times and then it started fine. I did have to bleed a little more air out a few hours later when I went to crank it again. There should be a valve on the fuel filter, but my fuel filter is on the firewall.
Hope that helps.
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the new battery is 730 CCA's and im not sure what the other battery that i put in is...i think its less because i took it front a gas engine probably 700 or so
i have a diesel engine repair book that tells how to do stuff with the gm 5.7,6.2,and 6.5 diesel engines and i followed the procedure in that on how to bleed the fuel system
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mine has a fuel filter on the back of the intake and it also has an in-line one thats along the frame...the one on the intake was changed not to long ago, but the in-line looks like its been a while since its been changed...so i take it i should change that then bleed the system again?
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I would get those bats load tested at the zone
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well i wouldnt be able to go to autozone because we dont have one, but i go to a vocational school for automotive technology and we have a snapon tester and a carbon pile tester that will test the battery with a load
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gelled up fuel wouldnt cause it to turn over slow would it?
Yes, it will. If the cylinders aren't getting fuel there will be no combustion in the cylinders, which helps the engine turn over faster. I don't bother putting anti-gel additives in my fuel until it gets 15* or lower.
how do you hook up jumper cables on vehicles with dual batteries
Hook them up pos to pos, neg to neg like normal. On the vehicle to be boosted, put the cables on the battery closest in line to the starter (passenger side on your truck I think).
The filter on your frame rail is the one most likely to clog, since it is the primary. Good idea to change that one. I would probably just change it out and not bother bleeding the fuel lines. Once you get it started be prepared for it to die once that air pocket reaches the injection pump. Just crank it over some more to bleed that air out and restart it.
If you do want to test your glow plugs, it is easy. Disconnect the wire from each one and touch each one with a test light (connected to pos terminal). If it lights, plug is good.
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so i unplug one at a time and turn the key to on?...then hook the alligator clip to the pos terminal on the battery? and touch the other end to the glow plug connector?
sorry you gotta explain things better because basically have no clue when it comes to diesel seeing that this is my first one and ive never worked on one before
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To charg duals I guess It depends on the setup it should be pos to pos and both bat grounded out which inturns doubles the cca. If that's your setup I would just hook it up like a reg bat they both should get the charg
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well i tried jumping it with my dads truck, his has dual batteries too...and we put pos to pos and neg to neg...both on the main batteries
i looked online and it said to do pos to pos and neg on the jumping battery then the other end to a ground on the the dead vehicle, it said to hook it to a ground and not to the neg terminal
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A lot of times they say that because a dead bat can give off a gas that when you cause a spark on it can blow up in your face. That's also why they say to hook the dead bat up first
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sorry you gotta explain things better
1. Unplug the single wire from glow plug.
2. Connect test light to positive battery terminal.
3. Touch test light to glow plug terminal.
4. If light comes on, plug is good. If light does not, plug is bad.
5. Repeat for the other 7 plugs.
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ok that makes sense
what if the test like doesnt reach the battery and i dont have a jumper wire
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Use a coat hanger
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so can someone list the possibilities that could be causing it to turn over slowly and not starting?
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Bad/discharged battery(s)
bad connection somewhere
bad starter
Mid 20's for a high temp isn't helping.
Did the PO start the truck for you before you got it? At least to verify it would start/run even if only for a few seconds.
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I would make sure both bats are good. A week starter wouuld also cause that
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yes he did start it for me...but he also had a charger(one on wheels) and the block heater plugged in...and it started right up and it stayed running
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Can you get the truck into some place warm? (right now it's below 0)
Get both batteries tested. iirc, they can both read 12v, but if one is "shorted" it's junk. (load test)
check connections.
Don't get frustrated or overwhelmed, just because it's diesel doesn't mean it's from another planet. ;)
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Gold84,
this thread is all over the place. Start over,
#1 make sure you have charged batteries and good connections
#2 make sure you have fuel
#3 if it turns over really slow do a starter draw test. Since you go to school you should have access to an amp clamp.
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one battery is new and the other one isnt new but it should be good...ive put the charger on both and it doesnt change it all even when i put it on engine start
im going to take off the start and have it tested
and i think i have fuel because i opened the air bleed valve on the fuel filter and fuel came out and it has a full tank
and i put some anti-gel stuff in it...im starting to think that the starter is bad because ive put the charger on, tried jump starting it and nothing seems to help
it just seems like its not turning over fast enough for the engine to start
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so i just went out and looked at the batteries...the new one is 730 CCA's and the other one that i put in is only 650 CCA's and the old one that was in the truck when i got it is also 650 CCA's...so do you think this is my problem? i need to get a more powerful battery?
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I don't think its the bat. but eliminate that first then go from there test it then test the starter. I think that's your problem but make sure before you buy something you don't need
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i think it was because of the battery because i took the batt out of my dads truck and that was 850 CCA and my truck turned over a lot faster and better
i couldnt get it started, but i think thats because i havent had it plugged in and it was -10 here this morning...so im going to get another battery
and i talked to a local garage and they said that both batteries need to be the same size (CCA's) with my dads 850 and my new 730 it seemed fine, and im not gonna spend another $200 on batteries seeing that i dont even have that money
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all you should have to replace is the one your dads is replacing. did you leave it plugged in over night again?
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last night i went and bought an 800 CCA battery, i kept it in a warm spot over night and im going to put it in this morning and try to start it...i have had it plugged in since noon yesterday so that should be all set
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have someone check the battery voltage while you crank, If one goes below 10.5 volts its done for.
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i put in the new batt in this morning and it started then stalled again....and then i couldnt get it started once again.
theres what looks to be a vacuum pump on the front of the engine and it has a pulley for the belt..i just noticed that the belt wasnt on there so the pump wasnt running...would this affect my engine as far as starting it or keeping it running?
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Definitely! Get a belt for that. I've heard AIR is far more important for diesels than gas.
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its not a separate v-belt or anything...i was thinking maybe i could put the belt on this pump instead of the ac compressor
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*shrugs* It's in front of you, not us. Quit posting and get it running! ;)
The "shotgun" approach rarely ever works.
Crank-yes, no
fuel-yes, no
spark (glow-plug) yes, no
KISS rule
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crank-yes
fuel- im pretty sure
glow plugs- im pretty sure
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Run= No.
Pretty sure isn't quite there. ;)
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haha ya i know
i might just end up selling to my friend because he said he would buy it...but i dont know yet
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some friend will he help you out with it? but i bet he knows whats wrong with it and wont help you out
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I used to have friends like that Irish, there might be more truth to it than you think.
Gold, if you have to, step back and give it a break. To me, it sounds like something simple, staring you in the face, you're just not seeing it.
Do you have a Chilton's? IIRC, the small one for the 73-87 trucks didn't have much on the 6.2, but the big hardcover (I think it covered all makes) had more on the diesel. (my brain might be fuzzy, I haven't had my big Chiltons book since the 90's :-\)
check here, maybe you can find some tips. (I actually think the link was posted earlier in this thread) [url]http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/index.php[url]
I was considering an oil burner for myself, but now I dunno...
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give it a blast of wd40 or something similar while cranking it.
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some friend will he help you out with it? but i bet he knows whats wrong with it and wont help you out
no he said he would buy it off of me
I used to have friends like that Irish, there might be more truth to it than you think.
Gold, if you have to, step back and give it a break. To me, it sounds like something simple, staring you in the face, you're just not seeing it.
Do you have a Chilton's? IIRC, the small one for the 73-87 trucks didn't have much on the 6.2, but the big hardcover (I think it covered all makes) had more on the diesel. (my brain might be fuzzy, I haven't had my big Chiltons book since the 90's :-\)
yes i have a haynes techbook that tells just about everything for the gm 5.7,6.2, and 6.5 diesel along with some ford diesels....really the only thing its helped me with is changing the water pump(did that yesterday) and bleeding the fuel system
give it a blast of wd40 or something similar while cranking it.
do you mean spray wd40 in the intake? and on the air cleaner it says not to use starting fluid
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Cycle the glow plugs two times before trying to start it. If it doesn't start spray wd40 in the intake. Not a ton of it just enough to ensure you are getting fuel. If it fires you know you have a fuel delivery issue.
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And no do not use ether or starting fluid as it ignites way to easily for a diesel engine and you could do some serious engine damage.
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i cycled the plugs twice yesterday and thats when it started and when it stalled i tried doing it again and it wouldnt start...so youre saying i can use wd40 but i cant use starting fluid?
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WD40 yes
Starting fluid/Ether NEVER!
can you crack open one of the injection lines going to the head and see if you are getting fuel there?
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what do you mean crack open? you mean loosen them to see if fuel leaks out?
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Lets start at the beginning:
When the Glow plugs come on does the voltage drop?
Have you metered all the glow to see they are getting 12V?
If necessary, pull the glows out and ground the threaded section and then let it cycle. They should turn dull red when power is applied.
If all this is ok, then loosen an injector fitting and crank at full throttle for 10-30 seconds. Fuel should come out the loosened fitting.
Check all this out and report.
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im not gonna bother doing anything to it...im just gonna sell it...but thanks everyone for the help
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don't give up man, its probably something real simple as much work and money you put into it all ready your all ready dedicated to it.
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i already know that its just going to be problems down the road and since i dont know anything about diesels i probably wouldnt be able to fix it and i dont have the money to bring it to a garage....i know now that the only diesel ill get is a duramax, or cummins
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What kind of shape is the truck in? You could always get a $300 parts truck off Craigslist and put a gas motor in it.
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its got quite a bit of rust....and i dont have the money to get a parts truck and i kinda need a truck now
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Not trying to direct you from here as these guys are great ;)
But for diesel tech you should visit Steelsoldiers.com and check out the CUCV section. All 6.2L Diesel tech all the time / parts too! . Very knowledgeable 6.2L diesel tech in their. They dumb it down enough where even I can follow along.
I seem to recall something about a check ball that gets trash in it and sticks when the pump begins to fail. But I am no diesel tech ~ Just a 6.2L CUCV wann~be!
Cutting off after start sounds to me like a fuel issue ~ because the 6.2L diesel can kill the alt and drop the batteries out but will still keep on running once started.
That 6.2L is a nice truck with great MPG. Is yours 4wd / x-military / 1-ton?
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if i wasnt in a hurry to get this going then i would deffinatly keep it and fix it, but it was supposed to be my daily drivers
if it was a fuel problem then i thought it would never start because it wasnt getting fuel?
and mine is a 1500 4wd
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Seems to me your hard start could be fuel related too.
Trouble getting proper fuel psi, Crank engine until it builds enough PSI to start, then loose it while running.
I am no diesel tech and am darned near mechanical pump illiterate ~ just a laymans logic.
Lines / Pump / Check valve ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
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if you haven't gave up on it yet try a couple things i have found from a web site
http://www.dieseldoctor.com/messageboard/data/231.html
Message:
If you are having a hard starting problem with a 6.2, and you have a mechanical lift pump, replace it. It is cheap, and is very often the problem. I replaced mine with a $40 autozone electric pump, and it solved a couple of my problems.
Also, if you suspect your glow plugs, let them cycle on and off several times BEFORE cranking. Did it start any easier...even a little? Then replace them.
If you are going to replace your glow plugs, do yourself a favor, and make a special removing tool out of nut that is the same metric size and pitch. I can email the simple instructions. Do not break the tips unless you are really sure you won't drop it in there.
steliz1 at hotmail dot com
Message:
I agree about the electrical. Just because it's turning over does not necessarily mean it's turning over fast enough to fire. These babies have huge starters that are very prone to being cranced too long and then getting fried. I have learned this the hard way. I made the ever fatal mistake of running out of fuel and in the process of trying to get it started again, I fired the started. And I NEVER crank longer than 10 second. Usually only about 6 seconds. Anyhow, it would turn over and my brother-in-law was sure the starter wasn't the problem, but I took the starter off anyhow and had it tested and it would spin, but the load would bury the needle! So charge the batteries to 100%, clean and replace terminals as necessary and if it still won't start, pull the starter and have it tested. I SERIOUSY doubt there is anything wrong with your valve train. When you bled the injectors, you had help turning it over and closing it when it began to weep? All 8? Also, The timing line that is stamped on your timing cover was set for the original injector pump. It is not a true indicator of timing. Also, I just recently performed a similar operation on one of my trucks (replaced timing chain.) When I put it back together, I of course alighned all the timing marks on everything, but the timing none the less was VERY, VERY retarded. So much so that I had to open it all up again and move injector pump timing gear ahead tooth by tooth until it was in time. I have never seen this before...
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WD40 yes
Starting fluid/Ether NEVER!
Unless your about to sell it to someone who calls you a friend but instead of helping you fix the truck offers to buy it(for cheap money I assume). Ya, in that case I would break the cardinal rule of diesels and load it up with ether and give it a shot.
What he doesn't know won't hurt you.
Hopefully you haven't given up yet. Others have given you some good advice,hopefully some of it pays off. Like others said, it may be a simple solution.
I had a camaro years ago that I could not get to start. I went over all of the basics.
Fuel (brand new Holley carb and fuel pump)
Air (new edlebrock air cleaner)
Spark (new accell plugs, wires,cap and rotor)
I worked on it every night and it just would not go. It was getting a spark, but a more experienced eye noticed it was a weak spark.
A $20 pick up coil had me burning rubber all over town.
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im kind of leaning to the starter
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Agreeded ~ Starter / connection / high amp draw / low battery CCA issue, but the starter wouldn't make it cut off after 10 - 15 sec.
I think he has multiple issues that are muddying the waters.
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eather way your "friend" i bet he knows what the problem is, think about it like this would you buy a pos from a "friend" that doesn't even run??? tell you what rec a vid of you trying to start it so we can at least hear whats going on
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ok ill take a video but im still not gonna keep it because i just like gas engines better than the detroit diesels, because i know alot more about them and i think theyre easier to work on.
thing with taking a video, i havent had the block heater pugged in all week
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5nliLXamKk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5nliLXamKk)
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If I were cranking that slow, I wouldn't start either.
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I;d charge the batteries up as much as possible, and make good they are both good - one bad one will take out the good one. Double check all battery connections and the connections to the starter and block.
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Put a starter in it.
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Turning over WAY too slow. It might turn over this slow if it is very cold and hasn't been plugged in, otherwise it is a bad battery connection, weak batteries, or weak starter.
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so if it isnt the batteries or batt. connections then is it deffinatly the starter? i need to find out exactly what the problem because a guy would trade for another truck if i find out exactly whats wrong with it...i still need to find out about the stalling problem too
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is it an automatic or standard? i had an old f*#d that did the same thing nickle and dime me but in the end i drug it down the road and it fired right up.leave running and let it charge everything back up. and clean out.
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its an automatic and i dont even know what you just said haha
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He said he had a Ford that used to cost him a little here and a little more there. It was a standard, so he could have it pull started to get it going. If yours was a standard, you could attempt the same thing.
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oh if mine was manual then i probably wouldve tried doing that
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Page 2- get the starter tested ::) (that was 2 weeks ago)
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haha i know i know...its just everything is wet and its raining outside, i dont really feel like doing it today
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Taking the starter out and testing it won't reveal much. You need to test current draw while it's installed. I would just replace it if you don't have the means.
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Don't replace the starter with a reman unit. It took me about 13 warranty replacements before I finally got one that was good(think they accidently gave me a new one). In one case one failed within 3 weeks, and another time the replacement turned over slower than the one I brought in for warranty. It isn't worth the headache. A brand new one costs about $100 more, but is worth every penny. Or look on ebay. They had a good selection of new ones last time I looked.
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i just looked on ebay and found a new one for $89 with a 1 year warranty
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will a starter for a v8 gas engine fit the 6.2L? i know that the diesels have tougher starters but if a gas starter will bolt up to my engine then i might just use one of those to see if i can get it started
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I don't think so. The diesels have way more compression. I smoked my straight 6 starter on my 400. Luckily I have spares.
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A SBC/BBC starter won't work on a Diesel.
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ok guess ill just get that one off of ebay, hopefully thats my problem
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Don't get an eBay starter. What are you going to do if it fails? Mail it back to the guy and hope he sends you another one while your truck is down for 2 weeks? Get one from Autozone with a lifetime warranty.
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I have two trucks with 6.2 diesel engines, watching the video, the engine is not turning fast enough, I suspect that your starter is drawing way too many amps, a quick way to test is just touch the cable gently after cranking to see how hot they are. There is a new induction starter that is available that is more powerful and will outlast a rebuilt starter about 3 to 1. Another thing to make sure of is that the glow plugs cycle everytime you try to start. I had an occasion in 90 degree heat where the truck started in the morning, stopped it for lunch, and came back and it wouldn't start. Tried everything that I could think of like bleeding fuel system, boosting, etc. Eventually, I took a jumper wire and made the glow plug relay come on and the glow plugs glow and it fired right up. As far as cold starts get a cheap timer and have it come on 2 to 3 hours before you want to start. Any longer is just wasting electricity, as the engine doesn't get any warmer. (Trust me I live in minus 40 country)
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well i already bought the ebay one and it has a 1 year warranty, but it doesnt matter because even if it isnt my problem im still selling it, right now i already have a couple people interested and they dont care if its running or not
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ok so im trying to take out my starter(its a pain!) and i looked at the batt cable that is on the solenoid and its covered in corrosion...so now im 99% sure that this is why the engine was turning over slowly, so im going to clean that off and try it again
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Keep us updated!
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will do!
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Did you ever get it running?
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nope i sold the truck yesterday for $700
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i say your buddy has it running in a week
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lol he probably will...he said he used to have a 6.2 and it needed new fuel lines because they were letting air in and after putting new ones on it started right up...but im still 99% sure that it didnt start because of the corrosion on the starter
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Strange that a group of guys on line seem to be more helpfull than your "Friend".
Just something to think about.
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all you guys were a lot of help and probably wouldve been even more help if i got it running and kept it
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still allot of Chevy's out there to get
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ya im saving my money now to get another better gmc