73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => 73-87 Chevy & GMC Trucks => Topic started by: HIGHPLAINSDRIFTER on May 20, 2010, 02:07:48 pm
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Been looking around a little and have seen it. I am sure it's been done somewhere.
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I've seen a story of a Duramax being retro'd into a 1989 chevy by Jim Bigley at the dieselpage website. It turned out to be an awesome truck. http://www.thedieselpage.com/duramaxconversions.htm
Something in the back of my mind tells me I've seen an older retrofit, but I can't 'member so good where it was. :)
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The Allison transmissions are so problematic and expensive even to fix yourself you'd literally have to have bank, be crazy or have one fall into your lap to make it worth your efforts. I'm rebuilding an Allison right now and you don't even want to know what the parts cost let alone the cracked extension housing that goes along with 90% of these pieces of crap. Now do you even want me to get started with the engine management problems?
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So if one were in the market for a 3/4 ton diesel, you wouldn't be recommending a Chevy? What then, Dodge? Surely not Ford.
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Hey buy the Chevy (and get an extended warranty)
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If i was putting a Duramax of even the 8.1 in one of these trucks, Id go with a 4l80 over the Allison. I worked for Stewart&Stevenson who are Allison dealers, and learned alot about the Allison 1000 thats in the Chevy trucks. For what the Allison costs, and its limits on power input that it cant handle, you can buy a well built 4l80. A good friend of mine gets to rebuild Allisons quite often because someone decided to put a Bullydog programmer, and toasted it. The 1000 is really only rated for 350 horse from the factory
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I had an 02 w/ the 8.1 and an Allison. I put 130k on it and only had one problem. Some wiring plug on the tranny melted cause a short and then I only had 2 second gear. I also had an 05 with the 6.6 and an allison. I put 100k on it and never had any trouble. Recently sold all my trucks but my old 79 and rebuilt it. Older is so much cooler!
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With all of the ridiculously easy ways of extracting mondo-torque from modern diesels by way of power programmers and such plus huge tires that guys like to put on, I wonder how well any of the factory automatics are holding up to the abuse? Good to know about that Allison though.
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Yep that's something I didn't know. Of course I'd never researched it. The Torq-shift trans is the only thing that hasn't given my stepdad problems in his F250, lol. I was always kinda partial to the Dodge anyways. Good thing, because now its seems to be the only option. :P
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I'll take pix of the Allison I am pulling apart monday. Just the broken parts were $1306.20 at my cost.
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stock for stock a MCT1000 will run away form a 4l85E period
built properly the 4l85e will not keep up with a MCT1000 especially in 5th gear/over drive.. it wont happen. i cna tell you these allison have been in to 9.3 @146mph in 5500lb trucks. reguarly.
allison is no more porblematic then the 4l85
both have had NSBU problems
can you mess both up sure can..
allison will hold ~100 more rwhp then stock before it limps in stock form.
plus you need then TCM to control the allison
engine swap is much easier.. bell housing is the stand GM 7 hole and then flex plate is the 11" bolt pattern... will need a 6 bolt TC or you will break flex plates.
efi live is esecntial for the swap.
vile ECM only tell theTCM what tps and rpm it is at... rest is TCM
if then tail shaft housing it crack... that operators fault not trannys
and duh it will cost more... it bigger stronger and eavier then a 4l85
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Yeah Vile. You can't mess with our Duramaxes and get away with it >:( so there..
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vile ECM only tell theTCM what tps and rpm it is at... rest is TCM
if then tail shaft housing it crack... that operators fault not trannys
and duh it will cost more... it bigger stronger and eavier then a 4l85
Ok ? ???
I have no idea what you are trying to say or what your point is but the slightest driveline vibration cracked thousands of these extension housings with practically no miles on them and ended up with slipping units.
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so a few 1000 tranny have manufactor defects... out of several MILLION sold and in service mind you thats only a couple 1% points of everything...
deff IMO not worth this labbeling
The Allison transmissions are so problematic and expensive even to fix yourself you'd literally have to have bank, be crazy
there are only 4 wires that acutually run between then TCM and ECM directly... couple 12v a 5v and a couple grounds
if you would like i can dig out my Helms manualy and post the wiring diagragms between then TCM and ECM
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Malibu you obviously missed the point I made and I still don't get why you are talking about the TCM.
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Malibu you obviously missed the point I made and I still don't get why you are talking about the TCM.
The Allison transmissions are so problematic and expensive even to fix yourself you'd literally have to have bank, be crazy or have one fall into your lap to make it worth your efforts. I'm rebuilding an Allison right now and you don't even want to know what the parts cost let alone the cracked extension housing that goes along with 90% of these pieces of crap. Now do you even want me to get started with the engine management problems?
you think its junk/trash/garabage................ did i mis something???????????
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I have a friend that had a 4l80e race prepped to handle 1000 horsepower, and paid $5000 to do so. I havent seen anyone offering to stock rebuild an Allison 1000 for that price. I have an Allison in my 01 crewcab. I know Im looking at $6k if mine dies, but at 65k miles, I have time, and I dont beat on it.
I do like it, but the question was putting one in one of our trucks. For the size and weight of the 1000, the cost of the 1000, and the cost to durability ratio, no, I wouldnt put one in one of these trucks, especially when I can get a trans for half the price to handle more horsepower. Like I stated, I have a friend that does nothing but transmissions, and 90% of his work is Allison. The Allison to 4l80e failures are no where similar. The only reason I can see putting an Allison in a squarebody is just to be different. The cost factors dont seem to justify the installation.
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you think its junk/trash/garabage................ did i mis something???????????
Apparently you did. This is what I said in response to putting one of these powerplants in one of our trucks.
The Allison transmissions are so problematic and expensive even to fix yourself you'd literally have to have bank, be crazy or have one fall into your lap to make it worth your efforts
Choptop summed up my feelings in his last post.
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I have a friend that had a 4l80e race prepped to handle 1000 horsepower, and paid $5000 to do so. I havent seen anyone offering to stock rebuild an Allison 1000 for that price. I have an Allison in my 01 crewcab. I know Im looking at $6k if mine dies, but at 65k miles, I have time, and I dont beat on it.
I do like it, but the question was putting one in one of our trucks. For the size and weight of the 1000, the cost of the 1000, and the cost to durability ratio, no, I wouldnt put one in one of these trucks, especially when I can get a trans for half the price to handle more horsepower. Like I stated, I have a friend that does nothing but transmissions, and 90% of his work is Allison. The Allison to 4l80e failures are no where similar. The only reason I can see putting an Allison in a squarebody is just to be different. The cost factors dont seem to justify the installation.
6k shesh were you looking???? if your going to pay 6 k for a tranny i got some ocean front propety here in ohio im willing to sale you.
i had everything built minus hard parts inluding convertor for 4500.00 and i had some one do it same day too.... next thing was billet input/output planitarieys which would be another ~2000.. and i garrentee you a full out race 4l85 wont keep up in power capacity or durabilitie especially behing a 1000rwhp+ diesel in a 7000lb truck.. call up coan,hughes,tci and ask if their max effort 4l85 will handle 2000+lb of torque.. they will tell you no or IDK should or keep it out of 4th at wot and it should live for a while... in the mean time your going to be dummping min 4000.00 for a full race prep 4l85
this is the 2nd time maybe third time i have mention suncoast on alison rebuilds..
DIY build up http://www.suncoastconverters.com/gmc/gm_products.html basic build up is 2300.00 plus labor for a SCIII
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Malibu, you are missing the point here. Most people don't want to spend that kind of money just to say they have an Allison transmission in their 73-87 truck. You're acting like this is a bashing contest when it's not. If I were to dump that kind of $ into one of these trucks there are certainly a lot better ways to spend it. Are you planning one of these swaps in a 73-87?
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Malibu, you are missing the point here. Most people don't want to spend that kind of money just to say they have an Allison transmission in their 73-87 truck. You're acting like this is a bashing contest when it's not. If I were to dump that kind of $ into one of these trucks there are certainly a lot better ways to spend it. Are you planning one of these swaps in a 73-87?
i will be once i get back on my feet job wise... i already know i will have min 4-5k invested in an engine swap. including buying one.
i will at least put a stock dmax in it... and bolt it to a th400(current one is mildly built).. then later see about puting a allison in it with adapter for a pass side drop.. biggest thing would lenght and getting and adapter for a pass side drop
putign it in a 2wd setup would be the easiest
i am also doing the leg work to put on in my 79 malibu to replace my BBC that is currently in there.
the simplelest wasy would be buy a tottaled truck as a donor and swap everything over.
i figured most poeple on this board are NOT the type to do something for status quo as you hint too.... im typing what i do.. figureing the OP knows he will be pushign 10k on the swap.. doing a deisel swap even puting a 12V/NV4500 (cheapest)setup will double mpg not too mention the extra easy power that comes with it and then cool factor that is naturally inherant wih haveing a late model diesel in a clean square body.
there are tons of benefiet of an alli over a 4l85e.. and to say then line as a whole i propblematic is IMO ignoarance on your part. so you get a several hundered... maybe a thousand.... that isnt enough stick to think about shaking at then shear volume of allision 1000 that are inservice wiht over 200,000 miles on them. and going strong
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Malibu, I'm not going to beat a dead horse here but I'm a certified ATRA member and a proctor for them. If I say they are problematic it's not because I decided to pull it out of my butt. There are tons of issues with those transmissions just like any other trans (think like when the 700R4 came out) and they are getting much better with time but we're talking about 100s of thousands of these transmissions with issues that if not covered under warranty (just like if you decided to put one in a 73-87) that is going to cost you big bucks to fix. The one I am fixing right now requires about $1500 worth of parts not including labor just to perform Technical service bulletin 03-07-30-031E. That is my point, that they are expensive. I don't know why you don't get that this is my point but nevertheless it is not ignorance. PS Spell Check is right next to the post button.
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6k shesh were you looking???? if your going to pay 6 k for a tranny i got some ocean front propety here in ohio im willing to sale you.
i had everything built minus hard parts inluding convertor for 4500.00 and i had some one do it same day too.... next thing was billet input/output planitarieys which would be another ~2000.. and i garrentee you a full out race 4l85 wont keep up in power capacity or durabilitie especially behing a 1000rwhp+ diesel in a 7000lb truck.. call up coan,hughes,tci and ask if their max effort 4l85 will handle 2000+lb of torque.. they will tell you no or IDK should or keep it out of 4th at wot and it should live for a while... in the mean time your going to be dummping min 4000.00 for a full race prep 4l85
this is the 2nd time maybe third time i have mention suncoast on alison rebuilds..
DIY build up http://www.suncoastconverters.com/gmc/gm_products.html basic build up is 2300.00 plus labor for a SCIII
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I paid $3500 for a race prepped 427, w Rehr Morrison race prepped heads, and it came with a th400 built to match. You've got $4500 in just the transmission, not counting the "hard parts" that i dont know if you replaced or just reused or what. I stand by my statement. "cost to benefit ratio just doesnt make sense to me. you'll have close to $10k in just motor and tranny they way you talk, that leaves me with $6500 to play with, and alot can be done. They $6k I stated was a quaote for an overhaul/install on my 01 crewcab. I love the tranny in this truck, and it came with it. I would not replace it with a 4l80 e because its already there, but I am not rich, and would rather spend $10k on a drivable truck.
What do you guess the total cost to put an Allsion in your truck is going to be, factor in TCM, harness, mounting, mods etc
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The Suncoast website also says 800 horse, 1400 ft/lbs torque max for a trans that cost $3482 with core. How much is it without core. I dont have a core, do you? How much did it cost? If they are that tough, why doesnt John Force have them in his race cars. Im sorry youre getting bent out of shape trying to defend a transmission than in my opinion is good when its used for what it was designed for. Can it be built to handle more?, definately, anything can. In stock form Allison versus stock form 4l805e as far as price to durability ratio, I still have to go with the 4l85e. In installation ease, the 4l80 seems to be better there as well. If you got the boat load of money to spend on an Allison, my hats off to you, and Ile am somewhat envious, in the mean time, Im going to take my money and buy another truck that I can drive and enjoy. Did I mention I now have 4 extended cabs, 3 readily drivable, plus a half dozen other sqaure bodies, and dont have $10k in all of them combined. Id love to drive one over someday and check on the install of the Allison. I dont think its a dumb idea, rather I think its a really cool idea, I just dont think its economically justifiable, which is what I thought the question was.
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i paid ~1500.00 while in Los angles to have mine rebuilt installed and tested byt he indivual that lead the designing of the aftermarket kits for the allisons.
i had in 07 a SCIV kit that was 2800.00 out the door. i didnt have the tools or time to Do it myself...
i can tell you right now. take a tune only dmax @ 500hp/1000tq at the tires one with a allison and one wiht an 4l85E and tow 10,000lb(this is a light load) cross country..i promiss you then 4l85 wont make it or will be seriously hurt.
john force??????????? heck he runs either a lenco or liberty tranny... that can shift 4 time faster then the allison and twice has fast as a hydromatic.
rough gues to put a 2wd allison in a truck conversion.. probly do it for 3-5k.. the big IF would be the deal on a donor vehicle and what one had to buy outright. there is a stand alone for the allison but its pricey.... like i said earlier.. if you found a wrecker donor vehicle.. pull everything off you wanted.. transfered it over... then parted/scraped the rest.. one could get alot for little money... talking 5k or less. i know a guy did it to his 97 suburban for under 4k once all is said and done with the donor vehicle sold off...
here what i am looking at with mine. i currently runing 4.10 gears with 32" tires 70 is ~3000rpm. with a 60/14 setup... tallest matching gears both can get is 3.73. 60 can go to 3.54... 14B can go to 3.08s 3.42 being the more commons ratios.. one option would be to find a D70 or D80 that way i coudl run 3.54 in both the front and back. with 3.42/35s/70mph is ~2300rpm
as a DD 35" is the tallest most commonly avalible tire mainly being 315/75/16. that still runs between 190-275 each pending make and model.
3000rpm is way to high for a diesel for cruising. ideal is 1700-2300 4.10 with 35s @ 70 is 2700 still too high... 3.73 with 35s @ 70 is 2500.. could get away with it... but still little on the tight side.
4l85E runs a .75 OD
4.1 and 35" with OD is 1800 but it would hold when towing.. so your back at 2700...
a strong BBC will be too much for a built 4l85 in 4th gear when towing. i woudl wager then mild 468 in my malibu wagon that dynoe 305/432 woudl hurt a stock 4l85 pretty quick.
allsion runs a .71 OD 4.1 with 35 @ 70 is is 1700 and you can tow 30,000lb without hurting it. which also include grade brakeing as well
the other option is to put a NV4500 iirc runs a .75 OD and will handle a boat load more then 500/1000hp/tq when built problerly and adequeat clutch.
if i were 2wd truck i could through a gear vendor unit on the back of then th400 can be golden... propblem is im 4wd..
the ability to tow in OD without hurting the trannsmission is a big PLUS with the allison over the 4l85.. if one was building a pavement beater 1/2ton variant... i dont see why a 4l85e wouldnt live.. though the main problems would be it eats tires and not go striaght.
side note
GM put beefed up 4l85E behind the a seriously detune dmax in their cargo diesel vans... detuned them to around 250/450 and 4th gear is still the first thing to go... the new 2011 dmax is 395/79X at the crank.
a friend of mine has such van... been through 3 85s inside 60,000 miles from burning up 4th gear clutches. on oem tuning... his 07 hsa 225,000 and a built allison and no problems...