73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Projects Posts (NOT VEHICLES) => Topic started by: modular93fox on August 03, 2010, 03:29:54 pm
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Finally went to the bone yard and picked up a rear end. Even got lucky and found a 12 bolt rear end. What I will be working towards is 99-04 Corvette (C5) Rotors redrilled to the 5x5 pattern, C5 Calipers, C5 internal parking brake. The only modification that cant be done by the average joe would be having the axles machned down a bit. The OD of the axle flange is a hair over 6.5" and needs to be turned down a little, aswell as the center register on the axle. I will start to gather the parts here in the next week... waiting to see if I can win an ebay auction. If not, I will be getting the backing plate kits and calipers here in the next week.
The Dodge 13.8" disc conversion I did a while back still kicks butt!! But I still havent gotten the e-brake setup downyet. This is why I am starting the C5 converions.
Clint
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Its like Christmas, but in August. FedEx droped off 1 of the 2 boxes. So far I have new C5 rear calipers and new C5 e-brake backing plates... woot woot... I'm hoping Thursday/Friday FedEx will drop off the rotors :)
(http://a.imageshack.us/img689/7738/caliperebrake.jpg)
clint
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im watching closely
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well FedEx didnt drop off the rotors Friday, shows on the truck for next business day.. :(
On another note, Finally went from paper space in autocad to some 1/4 acrylic plastic... fine tuned the outline/shape of the bracket and voila:
(http://a.imageshack.us/img188/8272/img0167bm.jpg)
and the back side showing the acrylic bracket - for race applications lol...
(http://a.imageshack.us/img299/4958/img0168b.jpg)
There will only be 3 bolts holding the backing plate to the adapter bracket. One on the top (thats the one you can see the hole is drilled through), and 2 at the bottom that go through the e-brake actuator.
I am lacking the rotors, so I do now know how far to space it just yet. The backing plate will be close to 5/8 away from the flange. The 4 axle flange holes in the backing plate adapter will be tapped. I am going to start on the caliper bracket now.. after a quick search, it the factory C-5 calipers sits 90* to the front. Setting it 90*to the rear would be as simple as using the opposite side brackets and calipers. This is how I set up the Dodge rear calipers on my truck now:
(http://a.imageshack.us/img13/2985/dsc0809i.jpg) (http://img13.imageshack.us/i/dsc0809i.jpg/)
thoughts/opinions? Any case, the angle could be changed at any time with no problem.
clint
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Set the caliper so the bleeder will be at the top. I would put it at the same angle GM positioned it.
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The factory C5 has them mounted facing towards the front of the car... but you can run it either way. If you want to have the calipers facing the back, like the fronts are, you would just use the left side brackets and calipers on the right side. Either way, the bleeder would be on top. I like them facing the rear, similar to the way the fronts are.
FedEx dropped off the rotors... after looking at it, the inside of the rotor has a machined face of about 6.25. Our axles are a tad over 6.5. While staring at the two, I was thinking instead of turning the entire axle down to fit the rotor, just turn the outer edge (of the face), like a chamfer that fits within the stock rotor. Along with that turn the center register to fit the stock rotor. Sounds like it would be better so there would not be any extra costs each time the rotor needs replacing. I am going to the machine shop tomarrow to see what their advice is and costs involved. ... anywhoo, I loaded AutoCad Inventor 2010 so I wll post up a 3d of what I had in mind.
clint
edit:
heres a rendering of the axle mod that I was describing..
(http://a.imageshack.us/img13/5115/axle3d.jpg)
and a view looking down
(http://a.imageshack.us/img806/7505/axle3d2.jpg)
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Cool. I'm a big Autocad/Inventor buff.
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I see what you are asking now.
If you want to sell these having a customer pull their axles to be machined will be and obstacle.
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Yeah, I am finding out its a pain in the butt to find a machine shop that isnt buisy and will do it. My 1 hour lunch turned into 2. First machine shop's manual lathe was down, but he could do it on the CNC one for 180 for the pair.. passed on that offer. 2nd one didnt want to do it, 3rd was buisy and the 4th that was recommened by the 3rd was like another 20 minutes of freeway driving... I e-mailed moser axles to get an idea how much new ones would cost. Direct replacement axles are 225$ I am waiting on a reply with cost for axle depicted in the cad drawing.
clint
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Well, in order to save me from driving from shop to shop to see if they can do the service I want, I decided to make some 3d cad drawings of what I wanted. The first option was to mod the rotor as shown here:
stock
(http://a.imageshack.us/img705/3552/stockcorvetterotor.jpg)
modified
(http://a.imageshack.us/img59/2526/modifiedcorvetterotor.jpg)
this way, the rotor will be ready to use on a bone stock c-10 axle with no machine work to the axle. Im waiting on a reply from the shop as I just sent it to them at 12am.. lol
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You're pretty good with that CAD software.
What is the advantage of C5 stuff over the other disc setups that are more common?
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You would be using new technology, matched caliper to rotor, vented rotors and e-brake. Some kits offered are impala rotors, and they are using different calipers such as LT1 calipers, d52 calipers.. mix and matched components. They all seem to work, but they are old technology. Heck McGaughys uses C5 front rotors and 80 model ebrake caliper that in other threads say that you must set parking brake each time to keep the caliepr working properly. But it also seems to work.
Plus once I iron the kinks out of fitting the rotor to the axle which I think I have... it could be upgraded to drilled/slotted rotors for C5/6 or the Z51 brake package or even the C6 Zo6 4 piston caliper.
I called Moser today about their stock replacment axles and they can machine them to fit the C5 rotor for no additional charge, just the standard 245.00.
Regular ac delco rotors I bought were around 45.00 (stock c5) , and the ones that are modified to fit other apps, which might include ours are 75.00. Thats 30 bucks for machining which isnt bad.
The idea is to use off the shelf parts for the brake kit so At any point you could replace them w/o waiting for the mail man. The measurements that were provided are close, close enought it might not fit. The option I am looking at is buying a set of new axles.
Unless you have a friend with a metal lathe, new axles or having yours turned is the option.
so far, 474.00 is new calipers, ebrake plate kit, and a pair of stock rotors.
needed:
Adapter brackets: estimated around 175.00
axles +225 (or find a machine shop that will turn yours)
brake pads +40.00
E-brake cables + estimated around 60.00
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Well before I placed the order with Moser, I called a place that I had done business with a few years ago. I had a ford 9" built and was like lemmi give em a call... turns out he can do it... lol they guy gave a rough quote of 75 for both.. now I can work with that. Going there tormarrow morning and he said I could wait on it... By this weekend, I should have everything besides the cables mocked up.
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(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c196/beastie_3/BoratThumbsUPVeryNICE.jpg)
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Got the stock 12-bolt axles turned down just like I had drawn up in AutoCad.... awesome, fits just like I had planned for. Now if I could only do something about getting the weekend to come any faster.. lol
clint
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Made a little more progress today..
(http://a.imageshack.us/img69/3464/rearassembled.jpg)
The caliper can be mounted to the front as shown, or to the rear
I need to cut some more acrylic brackets to space it out better, but it looks like the thicker bracket will be either 5/8 or 3/4.... 3/4 might be a hair too thick but I need to take a better measurement. This thick bracket will space the ebrake backing plate inside the rotor hat.
The caliper adapter bracket will be 3/8... plenty beefy
here are some renderings with the updated design of the ebrake spacer
(http://a.imageshack.us/img686/9752/c5assembled.png)
and it assembled on the "axle"
(http://a.imageshack.us/img442/9869/c5assembledonflange.png)
maybe one more day of mock up and I will order the first set of lazer cut brackets.
clint
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sent the files over to the cutter today... hopefully they can cut them this week and ship on Friday... :)
clint
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That's a lot of work, can't wait till it done and see the finished product....Tom
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So drilling the different bolt pattern in the rotors is the only mod for replacement parts? That's not bad. Did you check on waterjet instead of laser cutting--I think its a little cheaper, maybe not. What material are you using for your brackets? 4140 pre hard or something? Are you new to Inventor--I've been using it for a couple years and so far its been good to me.
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It coming right along ain't it? I'm waiting with my popcorn to see how they look and it all comes together! Nice looking work man.
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So drilling the different bolt pattern in the rotors is the only mod for replacement parts?
Thats the only mod to the rotor. The axle needs to be turned down to fit the rotor, or you can purchase new axles from moser and they will turn them down to spec for you... depends if your axles are not worn out (the 12 bolt ones I had turned down are worn out :( )
As far as the brackets, I was waiting for about a week to get a quote and hadnt heard anything form him, this was going to be CNC machined part... Still waiting, but went ahead and changed the bracekts so it can be cut on 3/8 steel plate + spacer to space the ebrake assembly to position. Same design, just makes the "kit" a lot cheaper.... probally saves me upwards of 150 per set... CNC stuff gets cheaper if you do large quantities.. and right now Im doing small quantities ... around 10 at a time.
Tonight I am going to order some brake pads and e-brake cables from rock auto... they have a special on the brake pads.... 15 mail in rebate.. 48.00 from oreilly, 35 from RA, plus 15$ rebate :) yeah :)
Yeah, Ive been using Inventor 2010 for about 9 months (fun only / self taught) and Autocad 2009 for 2d stuff for about 1 1/2 year...
clint
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heres what I will recieve from the cutter:
(http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/4964/375bracketversion.png)
clint
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Are you going to have the brackets lasered? if so i can get you a quote from my shop
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either lazer or waterjet.. Ive gotten quotes from all over the country... all within reason unless you want just one side.... I am waiting for my last bid to come in, and then I will make my decision. I found a place about 20 miles from me that can do one side or set at a fair price. This is also the first place that said waterjet is a cheaper way... i guess setting up a lazer is more? he said they have a minimum charge of 250 for the lazer and 100 for the waterjet..
clint
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wow, finaly got the call .. well finally checked my voice mail. stupid jailbroken iPhone.. phone no longer displayes the visual voice mail... didnt know my brackets were ready... picking them up at lunch time, just in time for the weekend
clint
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ha, turns out they have been done since 10.18 .. whoops
(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/3382/c5brackets.jpg)
I will do some test fitting tomarrow afternoon.. gotta go into work and finish up a car. Need to finish adjusting valves and replace a manual transmission on a 08 z3 Mcoupe :)
clint
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the measurements were spot on, here are some (iPhone) photo's:
(http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/550/1106101.jpg)
(http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/3153/1106102.jpg)
Its centered, poor camera angle ..doh
(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4570/1106103.jpg)
Mostlikely you cant see it but the 1/2 bolts that go from the outside of the main bracket to the caliper adapter head had to be ground down to the thickness of the 3/8's head. When the 1/2 bolts were in place, you coldnt slide the axle in far enough to insert the c-clip. Thus requiring the grind down the head of the 1/2 bolt. Only other way w/o grinding down the head would be to use 5/16" thick steel as the main bracket, probally plenty good and strong but 3/8 sure is beefy lookin.
(http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/9001/1106104.jpg)
(http://img573.imageshack.us/img573/4089/1106105.jpg)
Showing a point on the factory C5 caliper adapter. This point makes slight contact with the ebrake backing plate. The caliper adapter still need to be centered just a bit more which would make even more contact with the plate. I need to measure how much of a spacer I need to center it on my axle, maybe have another member (that has a spare axle laying out) try it out on their axle and see if the spacing is the same. I will probally use that same thickness if its not more than .050. Looking at a dial caliper, it should be less, and use it to space the e-brake plate out just a touch more so only a touch of this bracket will have to be ground down so it doesnt make contact.
(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/6199/1106106.jpg)
Showing the sharpie marks that were made on the inside parking brake drum to see where the contact point is. Entire shoe making contact to the drum with about 1/8" to the end.
All thats left is to find the needed measurement so the caliper is correctly center over the rotor (currently its not), same spacers for the e-brake plate and figure out how to remove the end of the dorman parking brake cable so it can then be shortened. Another member on another board probally had OE cables and the ends "screwed off".... these are crimped. I dont imagine that bing a stupid big deal but once its off, it will be a sinch to shorten the drivers side cable.
The idea on the ebrake cables mod would be so when you run the passenger side cable over the pumpkin and onto the frame rail (as factory) the drivers side shortend cable matches up so you can use factory hardware. Thats the concept.
clint
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Didnt make much progress today.. had to go into work today :( Anyway, after searching I found what the vetts use as a E-brake bracket on the hub/knuckle. I pretty much duplicated the design. I need to get the right length before the bend and after the bend and then we are good to go. The bracket will be out of 1/8 flat bar. While searching for this piece, I found a thread that the factory brackets bend and lets the e-brake cables flex more, not holding the car. The guy basically welded 2 gusset like things to make it rigid.. I will probally do something like that aswell... I dont want to fool with it or have anyone else fool with theirs later on down the road.
This shows the piece w/o the gussets.
(http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/1189/ebrakecablebracket.jpg)
This is what the brackets alone would look like on the axle flange:
(http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2220/c5bracketkitassembledon.jpg)
Hopefully the weather is good to me tomarrow and I can make this bracket, and mock up the cables on the rear end and practice brazing the new ferrel onto the modified cable. I also found they sell "swageless" fittings for wire (such as the wire in the ebrake cable). normally the ends are swaged (crimped) on... just another option out there. I am also lacking the intermidate cable. The one that goes from these new rear ebrake cables to the factory one piece. I think this will be an easy fix as the Camaros has a neat equalizer (15.00 new) that looks like it will be a great candidate! Havent bought it yet, but its next on the list.
Clint
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Finalized the e-brake cable bracket. OE Camaro rear brakes use a cast iron backing plate and the ebrake cable passes through the hole and the fingers on the cable secures it, just like our backing e-brake cables on the trucks. since the metal im using is 1/8, its too thin for the fingers to grab on to and actually old the cable so it doesnt wiggle around. I simply made a holder, just like a distributor hold down bracket. Simple and effective.
On my spare 12 bolt, I found out the wierdest thing. The offsets are not the same... different enough that you have to shim the caliper inwards .10" on one side and outwards .10".. I just happen to have some .10 hardware store washers laying around and happend to be the ideal thickness to center the caliper basket right over the rotor. So I wont be having the brackets milled down to make it a perfect fit, I will just use some hardware store washers to align the baskets.
I was looking at Lokar ebrake cables... dang 119 from summit.... dang any rate, thats an option to make it uber easy but its costly.
clint
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Update:
ordered axles from Moser with the C-10/Corvette spec.
Stock C-10 c-clip axles
28 spline
2.76 hub (corvette hub od)
OD flange diameter is 6 3/8 (stock is roughly 6.50"
Face of flange steped down to 5.90 and .10 deep
The guys at Moser are real nice and took time to help get the order strait... althought I have to call them back tomarrow becuase I said ".10" and followed that measurement by saying "one thousanth" crap... I hope they didnt ship them already :( they said I would have them in 6 days.
Clint
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got the new axles in, should have the corvette brakes installed this weekend
clint
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update: photo illustration on how I redrilled the 5x5 pattern.
printed template
(http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/1844/10166976.jpg)
trimmed timplate freehand to get rid of excess, have the butyl tape ready for next step
(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5777/72636149.jpg)
2 things happened in this step. 1st was to get a piece of cardboard and a pick. I placed the template on the cardboard and used the pick to punch through the center " X " of the 5x5 pattern. this will allow me to see where I need to place the center punch in the following step. 2nd thing that happened in this step was to apply a smear of the butyl tape. Its similar to sticky tack (the blue stuff) but its automotive grade and can be real sticky and messy when it gets real warm. I smeared 4 little spots on the tempate so it will stick to the front of the rotor.
(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/8285/96094800.jpg)
Placed the template with the butyl tape on the face of the rotor, and then aligned the center "hub" cirlce to the center hole of the rotor, then centered the 5x4.75 pattern through the lug holes
(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1709/48920806.jpg)
Used a center punch and punced each of the 5x5 pattern on the dimples we made in the previous step with the pick and cardboard. A firm tap with a hammer does the trick. I will go back over it once all 5 have been done prior to drilling. I didnt take a photo of me drilling becuase thats just boring. I had a lot of worn out bits (forgot my decent set at work :( ). Basically went in steps, 1/8 so it could find the center punch mark real easy. then went up to 1/4, then 3/8, then I think i went strait to 1/2 then to 9/16. Due to my choice of wheel stud, Dorman 610-298, 2" long wheel stud, they have shoulder of 5/16, stock doesnt have one at all.... The shoulder requires you to put a chamfer on the inside of the 5x5 pattern so the rotor will sit on the axle flange rather than the stud. no big deal. I simply had a 5/8 drill bit and went down untill the drill bit made its full diameter into the rotor. Imagine when you are going from small drill bit to bigger... and when you first start drilling the beginning of the hole isnt 100% round, it takes a little bit of depth before its the diameter of the bit, thats how it looked. I did not finish the brakes, I kept on forgetting things at the parts store :( . I need to double check a few things, remove, take photos, paint, re assemble, bleed, fill axle fluid and bed the pads in.
but heres a pic of them on 17" wheels... 1.8" smaller than what I had before, the caliper is a lot smaller than the one I had before but its a bit more proportionate.. either way, it looks great, parking brake is 2 cables away :)
(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/1951/82447607.jpg)
(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2170/53149172.jpg)
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Nice work. I like your choice of wheels too. It will be cool to see you finish this up and let us know how well your setup works.
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Lookin good! I'm diggin the vette parts!
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Im going to have a set of brackets cut out for my buddies nova and he might have a source on a set of used/free z06 brakes... It will give me a chance to test fit em :)
So far the brakes stops the truck just fine. The truck has had great braking from the get go.. If the weather is not poor, I will remove the prop valve guts, bleed and road test this weekend.
clint
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sweet, got all 10 sets in this past week...
(http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/5900/c5bracketkit160.jpg)
clint