73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Performance => Topic started by: jlane1820 on September 07, 2010, 04:43:22 pm
-
OK, this issue has probably been beaten to death, but I've had my fill with my ignition system. Every so often, my 82 C10 will not fire, and usually at a time when i really need it. My solution is to jump up under the hood and try the old hairspray under the distributor cap trick, which almost always results in an instant ignition once everything is back together. Easy solution, but it's becoming a real PITA having to do this every 2 weeks or so. So I am thinking of a way to improve my reliability in the ignition department. It's about the only area I haven't really upgraded...I have an Edelbrock top end set up with 1406 Performer carb, and the cam and intake to match, dual exhaust with headers, etc...nothing too aggressive, but my ignition is stock HEI. I've even played around with the timing, but no matter how advanced or retarded, it still happens (and I like to stay pretty advanced, 14°+). I've read a lot about CD ignitions from various mfg. but they all seem to point to more racing applications. I don't really race mine, it's a 305 with plenty of power for what I need it to do, and it's only my secondary vehicle. I'm just looking for something more reliable so the truck will fire when I need it. Would a CD ignition system with all the bells and whistles (dist, box, coil) be the ticket or overkill? Or is there a more reliable aftermarket HEI setup that would be more reliable, like the MSDs or Mallory with the hot modules? Any suggestions and experiences are greatly appreciated!
-
If the truck is still equipped with ESC (electronic spark control), that is probably your problem. I run an MSD Streetfire in my 82 K10 with a moroso recurve kit and it works great.
-
Isn't that that little can with the vacuum line going to it behind the dist? I have run it both with and without it connected to vacuum and either way it fires...sometimes. In other words, I've not seen any difference with or without it. Or does that refer to the module assembly inside the dist? I have recently, well 2 years ago replaced that and the coil with new parts but still stock, that never fixed it either.
I have seen the StreetFire MSDs which are nice, but with me being so bitter towards HEI right now, I wondered if an aftermarket HEI would still give me the same problems. But if you've had success, I won;t rule it out. Those are a lot cheaper and easier to install than a CD kit...
-
The can on the dist. is for your vacuum advance. The ESC is a computer box under the dash that recieves a signal from a knock sensor in the block and retards the timing when it detects pre-ignition. You can bypass the ESC but I found it easier to just replace the distributor with a non-ESC one, which is what the MSD is. HEI is a great setup, I would stick with it.
-
Here is how you can bypass it:
http://www.73-87.com/7387garage/drivetrain/escrepl.htm
They are notorious for working fine, then leaving you stranded, then working fine again for no apparent reason. This may not be the cause of your problem, but I would get rid of the ESC anyway.
-
Thanks for the info, Grim. The 'can' I mentioned isn't the vacuum advance on the dist, it's a little black can mounted to the firewall above the dist with a vacuum nipple on it. From the article you linked, it sounds like the vacuum switch that goes to the ESC. For a long time I ran no vacuum to it (and honestly didn't know I had ESC), but whether I did or didn't made no difference in how stubborn it was to start. Plus it seems to me the hairspray trick wouldn't cure an ESC issue would it? So I'm not entirely sure it's the ESC.
Either way, I hear so many rave about HEI that my gut tells me to stick with it. But I have had reliability issues with mine for the entire 11 years I've had the truck. I have changed so many things that it looks nothing like it did when I bought it, but one thing that has never changed is how hard it is to start. I know they are notorious for getting moisture under the cap, which is where the hairspray comes in handy and almost never fails when I spray it. Is this something everyone experiences and so often? I'm just so frustrated having to pop-n-spray that I would drop the HEI for a CD package in a second if I knew it would start more reliably, but if I can go with a better HEI and get the same reliability, I would. I just want a truck that fires when I need it to without going overboard with remedying it.
-
What are you hairy spraying? If it's a hot soak crank no start the pick up coil is probably the culprit. Just get a whole new distributor sice they're so cheap now.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-SBC-BBC-Chevy-Distributor-HEI-350-400-427-454-65K-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4cf1858537QQitemZ330469573943QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
-
Does hot soak crank imply the engine has been running and the heat has damaged the pick up coil? If so, mine only happens when it's cold and sitting for a day or 2. When I spray it, it almost always fires right up, then fires the rest of the day after. Maybe my pickup coil is just bad anyway, I won't rule that out, but why it fires after I spray the hairspray seems to tell me it's possibly built up moisture in the cap. An old mechanic friend of mine mentioned that happening, and taught me the trick and it has worked almost 100% of the time. You pull the cap and spray the inside of it then put it back on, the alcohol in the hairspray evaporates the moisture. But it sucks having to do that when you're expecting to use the truck.
On further reading of the article Grim linked, I'm not ruling out ESC either, since it says the connection to the pink wire from it can short out. If this is the case, then maybe the success of the hairspray is merely my imagination, and I am only 'unshorting' the ESC by pulling the wire when I pull the cap for an Aqua Net tune up. I plan on getting rid of it ASAP.
In either case, it sounds like ESC and my pick up coil could be bad, either one or both. Sounds like a new HEI dist could be the way to go. Now I appreciate the link VZ, and wow, that is cheap...almost too cheap to be true, and from experience, it usually is. I know a lot of you like the MSD stuff, which is more expensive, and Mallory makes some HEIs too. There's also ProForm, DUI, Accel and Pertronix HEIs. My money isn't burning a hole in my pocket, I would much rather use it for new seats and door panels than my ignition, but I would rather shell out the extra cash if it means a good, lasting and trouble free ignition. Any opinions on any of these HEIs or the one linked from ebay?
-
I think the one that Vile linked to is basically a stock replacement; non-HEI version. He wouldn't steer you wrong. The MSD Streetfire is basically a stock replacement as well from what I gather. It works great for me. Like I said I found it easier to replace the whole distributor so that you get all new components and simultaneously bypass the ESC.
-
I think the one that Vile linked to is basically a stock replacement; non-HEI version. He wouldn't steer you wrong. The MSD Streetfire is basically a stock replacement as well from what I gather. It works great for me. Like I said I found it easier to replace the whole distributor so that you get all new components and simultaneously bypass the ESC.
Oh I have a lot of confidence in Vile's suggestions. I figured he was showing me the cheapest route, which I appreciate too. But my built-up frustration over my ignition woes has given me a fix-it-at-any-cost mentality, which may be a pipe dream in itself. I guess I'm looking for a little better than stock, but not really an all-out racing set-up, if that's even possible. But I do greatly appreciate all of your suggestions and tips in helping me solve this!
-
Actually the one Vile showed you should be better than stock. It has a higher voltage coil, the module *may* be better, I'm not sure, but the higher voltage coil is prolly all you need for that 305.
-
what I'm thinking is you have a bad cap and the hair spay trick is working for you since it only happens after letting it sit for a couple days but like vile said and posted that one for around 40 a new cap and rotor would only be 25 bucks or so
-
I used stock replacement HEI Accel dist from a local parts store in my 82 with a 305 and it worked great. btw It originially had a bad pick up coil.
By replacing you distributor you rule out a whole lot of stuff for not a whole lot of money.
When was the last time you tuned it up?
-
I think the one that Vile linked to is basically a stock replacement; non-HEI version.
What I meant to say was non-ESC version.
Like 1980c10 said, if you get a new distributor you won't have to try to track down a singular component that is failing. And, with something like the one Vile posted, an MSD, or an Accel, you will get a hotter coil as well. Then with new plugs and wires your ignition system will be in great shape.
-
I used stock replacement HEI Accel dist from a local parts store in my 82 with a 305 and it worked great. btw It originially had a bad pick up coil.
By replacing you distributor you rule out a whole lot of stuff for not a whole lot of money.
When was the last time you tuned it up?
Tuned it up last year with new plugs, wires, etc, but that certainly didn't address the stubborn starting issue. But, I bit the bullet and per Grim's success story, I picked an MSD StreetFire HEI yesterday to drop in along with the SF wires. Cost about $169 for all, so we'll see how it goes after I drop it in this weekend and will follow up. I also have a Summit advance spring kit I've never used, but thinking I could also drop in the lighter springs on the new dist. for some lower rpm advance...Good idea??
Also to Grim (or anyone who has dealt with an ESC): I popped out the glove box and could not locate an ESC module. Per the article, this should be the correct location for it, right? Is it possible my 305 never had it? Maybe it could have been removed? Like I said I have the little vacuum switch mounted on the firewall, which is actually a little more towards the passenger side above the dist. I am still confused as to whether this is the ESC vacuum switch or something else. The wiring that goes to it is definitely grouped in with the pink battery wire for the distributor (which enters/exits the firewall below this mystery vacuum switch), but I haven't looked for where they all connect, and the absence of an ESC module under the dash is really confusing things...any opinions?
-
My 82 was equipped with a manual transmission, which is why I think that it didn't have the vacuum switch on the firewall. That may be for an auto trans, I am not completely sure. The ESC control box on mine was mounted on a bracket directly above the gas pedal. It was a shiny metal box about 4"x6"x2" or so.
If I remember right I am using one light and one medium spring, and I used the center plate and weights in the moroso kit. MSD recommends running a bigger plug gap with the hotter coil. I am running Delco CR43TS plugs gapped at .045 and some heavy Performance Auto wires that cost almost as much as the dist. Good luck, I think you will like it.
-
Thought about gapping mine to about .050 after I dropped in the new dist...I think stock is .045 IIRC.
Yes I have a TH350 auto, so the switch may be for that, but like I said I ran that switch without vacuum for years and never noticed anything at all. There is already a vacuum to the tranny, so I think it's getting what it needs as far as I know.
But thanks for the advice on the ESC box...didn't look above the gas pedal so I will check that later today. I want rid of it if it does exist. I know it's to help with ping on the higher compression 305, but I have played around with timing enough to eliminate any pinging. At one time (when I first bought the truck, before I tinkered with it) it would ping really bad under load, so the ESC obviously didn't help that if it is there.
Oh and I have heard of running the light/medium spring combo as well and considered this. MSD says the StreetFire is set at about 20° advance at 4000 rpm, which is a little late for a truck that rarely sees over 3000. So I will experiment with spring combos...thanks for the input on that as well!
-
Could you have a TH350C? That switch could be the low vacuum switch for your TC lockup. Does it have wires going into the trans?
-
Could you have a TH350C? That switch could be the low vacuum switch for your TC lockup. Does it have wires going into the trans?
Pretty sure it does...I am running vacuum now to that switch and have been for a while, well, since my last tune-up. But if this controls a TC clutch of some kind, and it wasn't engaging, I wouldn't think it'd really be a big deal, right? Maybe cause me to run at a few rpm's higher than normal and maybe a little more sluggish but that's it?
The wires from that switch go into the firewall though...seems odd they would pass through the cab to get to the tranny. Again, when I get some more time I will be inspecting this switch and the routing of it's wiring.
-
So Grim...I'm looking to remove the ESC now before I drop in the new dist. You mentioned yours was right above the gas pedal. I looked there and saw what looks to be a grey box with a harness of several wires going to it. I looked online for a replacement so I could get an idea of what I was looking at and found this...
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/BOR0/ESC16M.oap?year=1982&make=Chevrolet&model=C10&vi=1030802&keyword=control+module&pt=01603&ppt=C0334 (http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/BOR0/ESC16M.oap?year=1982&make=Chevrolet&model=C10&vi=1030802&keyword=control+module&pt=01603&ppt=C0334)
Is that what yours looked like? Also, the pink power wire that goes to the BAT terminal of the cap has a pigtail that plugs into that same group of wires that goes to the mystery vacuum switch, is this for the ESC?
-
Yeah that's pretty much what mine looked like. You can unplug the pigtail for the pink BATT wire, find the wire that goes to the knock sensor (in the block above and in front of the starter,) and that bunch of wires will go through a grommet in the firewall. I had the dash out of mine at the time so I followed the wires back and removed everything up to and including the box. The wires can be stubborn, they are in behind the defroster duct work and there are metal tabs that are bent to secure them. When you get the new dist. in, just plug in the remaining BATT wire and you should be good to go. As far as the vacuum switch, mine never had one so I can't say for sure, but if it's wired up with the rest of the ESC harness I would *guess* that it could also be removed.
I think that if the vacuum switch in question was for the TCC it would be on a seperate harness that would also include wires that you could trace back to a switch above the brake pedal. Some of the guys here with more experience with automatics might be able to help out with that one.
EDIT: I went back and read that article that I linked to earlier and it sounds like that switch gets filed away right next to the control box and the wiring.
-
Much appreciated on the advice! I think I read somewhere the vacuum switch for the ESC is used on models with automatic transmission, so it could be for that too, but could also be the TCC. Of course I will follow the routing of the wires from the module and the vac switch to make absolutely sure before I go removing any of them. But even though you may not be as knowledgeable with autos, your experience with this really helped! :)
-
Glad to help. I have been kicking around the idea of adding the CDI box to the setup, but I'm not sure how much of a difference it would really make.
http://www.street-fire.com/cdiignition.html
-
Glad to help. I have been kicking around the idea of adding the CDI box to the setup, but I'm not sure how much of a difference it would really make.
http://www.street-fire.com/cdiignition.html
Funny you should mention that, Grim.
To update my progress, I installed the StreetFire HEI and gutted out the ESC crap...but took it a step further and purchased that very box. Now I can't say my issues would/wouldn't have probably been solved with the new SF Dist. alone, but the idea of multi-sparks at low RPM and an external spark control that won't have the heat saturation issues of the regular internal HEI module sounded good to me. I also wasn't looking for anything too high-end for racing applications, where a Mallory, Comp or MSD 6AL would be a better choice, just reliability. Besides, this has a dial-in rev limiter, of which may be more of a benefit to trucks with manual tranny. So I gave it a shot and installed them both at the same time using the internal HEI coil that came with the SF dist., wiring the SF box into the module wiring with the supplied harness, and using StreetFire low resistance 8mm wires to send the spark to the motor. I also dismantled an older HEI module to cap wiring harness and rigged up the CD box's wiring to it so it would plug into the cap the same way as stock. I also opened the gap on the plugs to .050.
The result...
Off the bat, I noticed the truck fires in less than 2 cranks of the starter every time, cold or hot, and idles MUCH more smoothly. After some carb tuning (because my previously set idle speed jumped way up), it was good to go! This was my desired goal, and so far it seems to work very well. I also like the dedicated tach wire, which will be useful when my tach gauge cluster arrives. I wasn't expecting huge gains in performance, nor have I really seen any, at least judging by seat of the pants dyno. I know I could have probably went all out on a small cap billet dist. with a better CDI and external coil, but for around $200 bucks for both the new dist and the CD box, the starting issue seems to be solved, it idles more smoothly, and I am one happy camper!
-
Awesome. Did that vacuum switch end up being part of the ESC?
Where did you mount the box? (pics?)
Next time you have to drop the coolant for any reason you can spin that knock sensor out and put a pipe plug in it. What is your timing set to now? Maybe advance it a bit and you might see some more performance.
-
Awesome. Did that vacuum switch end up being part of the ESC?
Where did you mount the box? (pics?)
Next time you have to drop the coolant for any reason you can spin that knock sensor out and put a pipe plug in it.
Yes it was part of the ESC, so I took it off. And it left just enough space on the firewall to mount the StreetFire Box in it's place (with a few additional holes drilled). The SF box is noticeably smaller than an MSD 6AL, measuring only about 6" W x 3.5" H so it was the perfect size for this location. I also made some DIY anti-vibration mounts using 4 rubber wiring grommets sandwiched between the box and firewall. I will take some pics this weekend and post them.
And I did leave the KS in place after unplugging it. I have taken them out of my Buick several times, but I've heard that these in the ESC Chevys are easy to break so I left it in as a simple plug. Good to know a pipe plug will work if I ever remove it.
But thanks to you and everybody for all the help in sorting this out!
Oh yes, my timing. Well I did replace a spring in the dist. advance...I put in one heavier spring and left one that came with it, in hopes of it beginning the advance at around 1200 rpm, topping out at around 12° @ 3500rpm. My initial timing at idle is set to about 14° advanced. My StreetFire dist didn't come with an adjustable vacuum advance, but a stop plate instead, which I've installed to stop it at about 12°. My goal was about 38° total advance...does that sound about right? Think more advance would be beneficial? It's hard for me to check my advance right now at anything above 1200 rpm because that's all my handheld tach will read, but like I said, I have a tach gauge cluster coming soon that will allow me to check timing at higher rpms.
-
Your distributor is not equipped with the vacuum advance canister?
-
Your distributor is not equipped with the vacuum advance canister?
It is, just not an adjustable one. Funny because I know the Street Fires did come with an adjustable advance at one time because I downloaded the manual before I bought it and it includes instructions on how to adjust it with an allen wrench. On the one I got however, the instruction sheet was revised in the vacuum advance section, and the adjustable advance instructions were removed and replaced with how to install the stop plate. Plus, I could not insert an allen wrench and find a screw. It's just a standard canister. I have an adjustable canister from my old dist., but figured the stop plate would do the job and limit it to what I needed and to prevent any ping.
-
Adjustable or not, I would scrap the plate and use the vacuum advance.
-
Adjustable or not, I would scrap the plate and use the vacuum advance.
Hehe, I'm assuming your Street Fire came with the adjustable vacuum advance and no such plate. So I'll send pics of mine...
It's not a block-off plate, like what you'd use to gut out the vacuum advance altogether in a racing distributor. The advance canister with full vacuum from the carb is certainly being used. The plate I'm referring to is simply a stop plate, sort of like the one that comes with a Crane vacuum advance kit. It basically mounts behind the vacuum advance inside the distributor, but has 4 different 'claws' which limits the full movement of the vacuum advance shaft to your choice of 4 different advance degree settings. I chose the claw which limits vacuum advance to 11-14°. So I am using vacuum advance, but once it opens enough to hit the stop 'claw', it will advance no further. So the way I understand it, if my vacuum advances 12° at say 2500 rpm, which was my theoretical vacuum advance limit, but I needed to open the throttle further, the vacuum advance shaft would be at the end of it's travel due to the stop claw and therefore would only see 12° vacuum advance from there on out, instead of advancing further and potentially causing detonation and power-loss under more load. The centrifugal advance would do the rest at higher rpms. I thought it was a pretty good idea to prevent over-advancing at the vacuum which would lead to pinging, without the hassle of having to adjust and readjust a screw that I can't see.
-
Gotcha. Yes mine is adjustable and it included the plate if you wanted to use it.
I think some rainy day I might try out a different spring combo in mine to see how I like it. I am going to check into that CDI box as well.