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General Site Info => General Discussion => Topic started by: 87suburban on January 29, 2011, 05:24:57 pm
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i got a 1987 Chevy suburban 3/4 ton 4x4 with a TBI350 and a TH400 trans, an I'm thinking about doing a diesel conversion to get rid of the 350. Now I've been thinking about putting either a 6.2L or a 6.5L turbo diesel in it, considering it would most likely be fairly easy since it'd be almost like a direct bolt it. I know that stuffing a B-series Cummins in it would probably be the way to go, but everyone an their grandma put a B-series cummins in something and i want something different. Then i got the idea of putting a Duramax diesel in it, but don't know what kind of problems that i'd run into while trying to put it in my truck. Anyway, if anyone has done a diesel conversion with a 6.2/6.5 diesel or a 6.6 Dramas, can y'all tell me what issues are involved and how to address them? Right now, I'm just trying to get an idea of what I'd be up against when I'm able to it.
Thanks,
Ron
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I have never gone that direction but I have a couple things to throw at ya.. You will need to change over your Vacuum Brake Booster over to Hydroboost, Lower stall Converter for your Trans, Larger Radiator and Shroud. IMO I would start looking for a good running "Complete... Oil Pan to the Air Cleaner" 6.5TD and use an injection pump from a 6.2 to Eliminate the ECM and all the Electrical that came with them from the factory. You might want to look into the gearing you will be running also?? If you paln on going this direction, I am doing a Gas conversion and I might be able to help you out with some of the parts you will be needing... at no cost to you!! Just give them a nice home.
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oh i thought the 6.2/6.5's ran vacuum pumps on them, or was that just the 6.2? oh so the converters that are used for gas an diesel engines are different? i didnt think there would be any difference between them. in that case would it better to get a converter that would have come with the 6.5LTD? and if thats the case would it work with a TH400 trans? but if i put a pump from a 6.2 on a 6.5 TD, wouldnt that cause problems considering the 6.5 pump is a DB4? then for the gearing, do you have any recommendations on what i should run in it? i didnt realize that the gearing would most likely need to be changed, cause i was just going to use what gearing my truck already had in it. oh, ok hey thanks
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If you're going to go through all the trouble to convert it, go with with Cummins. The 6.2 would have less power than the 350 that's currently in your Suburban. The 6.2 only came with 135 hp and about 250 lbs of torque. However, where the 6.2 shines is fuel economy. If it's set up correctly, it can pull in close to 30 mpg. But behind a TH400 and 4.10 gears, you'll be severly limited on speed and fuel economy will suffer. For best fuel economy, you would need to use a transmission with an overdrive and lock up torque converter or 5 speed manual and a 3.43 rear end.
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I am in the process of doing this to my Camo Blazer right now. I just got the 6.2L in it last night. I am trying to figure out the wiring now (I HATE Wiring) and I am desperately trying to find AC brackets for it.
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To: Edahall
well i could run the Cummins, but everyone an their grandma put a Cummins in something an i want something different. i dont know what gears my suburban has, i found one place that has like a spec sheet if ya want to call it that. Looking on there it showed that 3:42 apparently the standard ratio, but i dont know if thats what is in my suburban. havent pulled the covers off to see what gears are in it yet, but would bolting a 700R4 behind one be better than my TH400?
To:Captkaos
oh, now did your blazer have TBI or carb? i know what you mean, cause my truck has TBI and that cause me a head ache trying to wire up a 6.2?6.5 TD in it. however i think im leaning more to the 6.5 TD to put in it.
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The reason everyone and their grandma put a Cummins in something is because the Duramax and Powerstroke usually arent worth the swap effort.
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i havent really heard anything bad about the duramax's, but with the power strokes starting with the 6.0L they are nothing but junk even though they have power. but the thing with the cummins, is the 5.9 has some fatal flaws though an i just want to do something different to mine.
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as long as you stay away from the "58" block on the 24v and make sure you replace the pump before it goes out, then you should be fine. the 12v has just as much power potential, if not more, and you dont need to worry about electronics. There are more parts available for the cummins swap vs the duramax or power stroke. a later model 7.3 would be fine. earlier models had problems.
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i thought it was the"53" blocks that were bad, an with the 12V they had the "killer dowel pin". u mean changing the injector pump on the 24v? well if i was going with during a duramax swap, id like to find a donor truck to use.
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53. I couldnt remember ha. ya the dowel pin is a easy fix, well worth the time to do it before it destroys the engine. Yup, injector pump problems.
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well with the injector pump issues, aren't the lift pumps that are used with the VP44 the reason why that pump has its problems?
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I dont know the details, I just know of the issue. I was looking into getting a 24v a while back. A search of a Dodge or Cummins forum would get you the answers.
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To: Edahall
well i could run the Cummins, but everyone an their grandma put a Cummins in something an i want something different. i dont know what gears my suburban has, i found one place that has like a spec sheet if ya want to call it that. Looking on there it showed that 3:42 apparently the standard ratio, but i dont know if thats what is in my suburban. havent pulled the covers off to see what gears are in it yet, but would bolting a 700R4 behind one be better than my TH400?
Why is a 6.2/6.5 different in a Suburban? Quite a few were sold with that option. My 1982 Suburban came stock with the 6.2 and I rebuilt the engine and made some modifications to increase the power. It gets excellent fuel economy and power is decent but power is not even close to the Cummins in my 1990 Suburban. The 6.2 pulls my 26 ft Airstream alright but a little slow on the hills but with the Cummins, you hardly know it's behind.
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Edahall:
i dont think there is any difference between the 6.2/6.5 in the suburbans, i just need to know what all problems i'll be running into putting a 6.2 or 6.5 in my suburban. The thing with my suburban is it has a TBI 350 with a TH400 trans and i dont know what the axle ratios are. Now so far, it looks as though im going to have to change my axle ratios maybe, possible tranny, and the radiator/fan shroud. now aside from that, i dont know what else im going to have to do. Another problem is dealing the electrical, along with if i go with the 6.5 TD i think the injector pumps had electronic module on it (i think you could call it that). Then i've was told to solve that problem, was to swap a 6.2 pump on it but i dont think it'd work considering the 6.2's were never turbocharged and the 6.5's were.
beastie_3 :
im pretty sure that what kills the VP44 is the lift pump that is used, now i think even running the engine stock the transfer pumps still killed the VP44
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I am in the process of doing this to my Camo Blazer right now. I just got the 6.2L in it last night. I am trying to figure out the wiring now (I HATE Wiring) and I am desperately trying to find AC brackets for it.
Got em sitting on the floor from the Military truck I did. You need some?
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This is the one I have
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well not right now, im just trying to get some information on what i'd have to do to convert mine over.
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Before you buy any 6.2/6.5, check the bottom end very carefully for cracks. Most of them cracked around the main bearings. Most of the 6.2/6.5 blocks out there have cracks of various degrees. The worse culprits were the newer 6.5's with the oil squirters. Most of these engines with the oil squirters encounter catastrophic failure around the 150k. However, of all the blocks out there, the AMG blocks are the least likely to be cracked followed by the 1982 blocks. You might be OK using a block with small cracks if the engine is not souped up, but the addition of a turbo could be asking for trouble.
Other things you'll need include:
Hydroboost for brakes
Cable operated speedometer cluster
4 core radiator
Overdrive transmission with diesel torque converter
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Vile, is it drivers side mount? Mine has a working AC, but it is the R4 style was hoping not to have to crack it open, but....
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ok cause i'm leaning more to using a 6.5L turbo diesel instead of the 6.2L. when checking the blocks for cracks, besides looking around the main bearings is there anywhere else that needs to be checked for problems as well? now for the 6.5L's that the oil squirters, you wouldn't know when the 6.5's started to use those so i know to stay away from them? now for the AMG blocks, those would be the ones to look for i take it as well as where on the block would it be casted?
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The oil squirters were installed in 96+ blocks. To allow for oil squirters, the block was thinned down in the problematic main web area which made it even more susceptible to cracking. Here's a photo that shows where they typically crack. Sadly, once the crack begins, the crack keeps traveling until one day, the whole thing lets loose.
(http://www.maxxtorque.com/dieselcommunity/images/stories/articles/2008_autumn/65_chevy_diesel_rebuild_magnafluxing.jpg)
I personally would stay away from any 6.5 block. The turbo added more stress to an engine that was never designed to put out that kind of power. These engines were designed in 1982 with the power level of 130 hp @ 3,600 rpm / 240 lb·ft @ 2,000 rpm and to provide excellent fuel economy. At that power level, these engines were reliable and usually outlasted the vehicle. However, as the years passed by, the power output ratings of these engines increased and fuel economy dropped and longevity decreased. From what I've seen, the average 6.5L block tends to fail at around 150k miles which is past warranty and beyond what the point many original owners drive their vehicles. However, my 1982 6.2 Suburban is still ticking along with over 400k miles on the clock. It is low on power but it gets me from point A to point B and gets good fuel economy. When I tow, I use my 1990 Suburban with the Cummins.
I'm not that familiar with the AMG block because it costs over $5k for that block which is a lot more than what I can buy a good Cummins engine for. Other problematic areas to look for are cracks in the heads between the valve seats. These cracks can allow coolant into the cylinders resulting in hydrolocking the engine.
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now for the AMG blocks, you wouldn't know if that's an aftermarket block or not? because for some odd reason, i thought someone builds aftermarket 6.5 blocks. now i'm not sure how true that is, i'm not sure.
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Yes, there are aftermarket 6.2/6.5 blocks coming out of China for cheap but from what I hear, they are garbage. AMG took over production of the 6.5 engine when GM dropped production. As you probably already know, the Hummer H1 is built by AMG and it uses the 6.5. The AMG blocks are expensive but were strengthened in the problematic areas and used more nickel in the cast iron which better resists cracking. If money is not an issue and you want a 6.5, this is the way to go for good durability even with a turbo.
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Vile, is it drivers side mount? Mine has a working AC, but it is the R4 style was hoping not to have to crack it open, but....
Yes Drivers side A6 V belt set up.
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ok i thought that there were aftermarket blocks for the 6.5 but didnt know bout the 6.2. now to get a AMG block, would you know where to look?
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ok i thought that there were aftermarket blocks for the 6.5 but didnt know bout the 6.2. now to get a AMG block, would you know where to look?
A 6.5 with the AMG block can be bought from the following reputable company:
http://www.peninsulardiesel.com/
If money is not a concern, this might be the way to go. The 6.2/6.5 is lighter weight than other diesel's of similar displacement so it's easier on front end components.
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now since my truck has electronic fuel injection, is there ways to fool the computer? or would it be easier just get another truck that has a 6.2L an take that harness an put it into my truck?
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You talking about yours having TBI and fooling it with a Diesel? Diesels don't have throttle valves (butterflies), so anything related to the TBI is no use.
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You will need to find the wiring harness and some other items such as the glow plugs solenoid.
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Captkaos:
yep. since my truck has TBI, what can i do to trick the computer? would it be better to switch the wiring harness or to use resistors to trick the computer?
Edahall:
ok, now would it be better to switch the harness with one that is set up for the diesel?
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Edahall:
ok, now would it be better to switch the harness with one that is set up for the diesel?
You definitely want the wiring harness from a diesel. The wiring harness includes the wiring for the glow plugs. However, you would be best off with a donor vehicle to do this swap. Too bad you're not closer to where I live since I've got a sweet running Suburban but the body is rusting out.
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ok, that's what i was thinking would be better to switch the harness for one that is set up for a diesel. that way, it would be would be done correctly and wouldn't have to worry about piecing together the electrical for the diesel.
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yeah the TBI setup is useless in a Diesel. I will be dealing with this right now.
I know some people that used the Coil wire to power the IP and a hot wire to power the glows by using a Ford solenoid with a push button.
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oh. now the wiring harness used on the 6.2L, could that be used to run the 6.5L turbo diesel? i know the 6.5L had the electronic injector pumps, but to have it switched for one that isn't electronic, would the 6.2L harness work with the 6.5L?
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oh. now the wiring harness used on the 6.2L, could that be used to run the 6.5L turbo diesel? i know the 6.5L had the electronic injector pumps, but to have it switched for one that isn't electronic, would the 6.2L harness work with the 6.5L?
You can use a 6.2 wiring harness on a 6.5 as long as you use a non electronic injection pump.
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oh ok, thats what i wasnt sure of the 6.2 harness would work with the 6.5.
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in the long run of the swap i see the 6.2L/6.5L being good if you want fuel economy like none other but don't tow alot
but if you tow go with a cummins.
i'm rebuilding a 6.2L right now and basically it doesn't make sense to rebuild them for power reasons. they are good for good fuel economy but if you are expecting the power of a duramax out of a 6.2L you will not get it.
think about what you are going to use it for first. if it's just dd a 6.2L/6.5L would be perfect. thinking of towing i would go cummins or consider another diesel.
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Yup, these engines are not for power. People who try to squeeze more power out of them end up breaking them. The bottom ends were not designed to handle much more power over stock.
For best engine efficiency, use heads from an earlier 6.2 diesel and forget about the turbo. The older, the better with 1982 being the best. Or you can have smaller precombustion chambers installed on later heads to deliver the better fuel economy. The disadvantage of smaller precombustion chambers is less power. However, a lot of that power can be restored with exhaust headers and a good exhaust system.
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ya i knew these engines were basically gut-less, compared to the engines they are building today. i just want to get a little better economy out my suburban, than what its going to get with the TBI 350. then maybe later, do a duramax conversion to it.
oh so would putting a turbo on a 6.2 isnt going to help out that much on economy? then with the older 6.2 around '82 i'm assuming they are going to be a little bit stronger compared to a newer 6.2? now instead of installing smaller pre-chambers, would there be any advantage to installing 6.5 heads on a 6.2? or would there be no difference?
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ya i knew these engines were basically gut-less, compared to the engines they are building today. i just want to get a little better economy out my suburban, than what its going to get with the TBI 350. then maybe later, do a duramax conversion to it.
oh so would putting a turbo on a 6.2 isnt going to help out that much on economy? then with the older 6.2 around '82 i'm assuming they are going to be a little bit stronger compared to a newer 6.2? now instead of installing smaller pre-chambers, would there be any advantage to installing 6.5 heads on a 6.2? or would there be no difference?
"oh so would putting a turbo on a 6.2 isnt going to help out that much on economy?"
Especially with solo driving, there's usually a gas mileage penalty installing a turbo on a 6.2. So for best fuel economy, forget about the turbo. Also, unless you live in high elevations, just install a free flowing exhaust. You'll get almost as much power as having Banks a turbo and have a lot less complication.
"then with the older 6.2 around '82 i'm assuming they are going to be a little bit stronger compared to a newer 6.2?"
Yes, the 82 blocks had a higher nickel content in the blocks.
"would there be any advantage to installing 6.5 heads on a 6.2?"
Yes, more power. However, you would get a huge gas mileage penalty doing this. It is unlikely you'll even see 20 mpg using 6.5 heads. However, you can install the small precombusion chambers on the 6.5 heads and regain the fuel economy but at the expense of power.
"i just want to get a little better economy out my suburban."
For best fuel economy, it's hard to beat the Cummins 6BT. How do I know? I have both. I have a 1982 6.2L Suburban and a 1990 Suburban with the Cummins. All I can say is the Cummins is a much better engine and outshines the 6.2/6.5 in every respect.
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would the cruise control thats on my TBI 350, would that hook right up to a 6.2 or 6.5? or would i have to find a truck with those two engines an pull the cruise control off of it to put it on mine?
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would the cruise control thats on my TBI 350, would that hook right up to a 6.2 or 6.5?
No
or would i have to find a truck with those two engines an pull the cruise control off of it to put it on mine?
Yes, or better yet, get an aftermarket cruise control that's electrically operated and not vacuum operated.
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ok, i take it that the cruise control set up used on the 6.2 and 6.5 was electrically controlled?
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ok, i take it that the cruise control set up used on the 6.2 and 6.5 was electrically controlled?
I don't know if the later models were electrically controlled all the way. However, I do know that my 1982 diesel Suburban came stock with a cruise control that was vacuum operated and it was very lacking and very problematic. The response time on it was very delayed so it was useless unless the terrain was very flat. And it only worked if the vacuum pump on the engine worked. Unlike the Cummins which uses a high quality vacuum pump that is reliable, GM went cheap on the engines and used a pathetic and unreliable diaphram pump. So for one of these rigs, my recommendation is to get an aftermarket cruise control that is completely electrically operated. Yes, they're expensive but they're worth it.
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to go with an aftermarket cruise control kit, where would be a good place to look that would have one?
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Here's one and yes, they're kind of pricey. My experience with 6.2's is that I have never felt the need for a cruise control since these engines are kind of slow on the road. I just keep in the right lane while people zoom on by and enjoy the scenery.
http://www.cruisecontrolking.com/chooseyourcruise.html
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hey got another question thats a little off topic, but the power window on the driver side door doesn't go up or down. at first i didn't think it was getting power to the motor, then i got another window motor and pulled the plug off the motor in my truck and plugged it in on the other motor. after i hooked up the power plug to the other motor and hit the switch, the other motor worked fine in both directions so i know its getting power to the motor. then i hooked another plug up to the motor and skinned the ends of the wires and tried to jump the motor, but nothing happens although it sounds like i can hear a "clicking" sound coming from it. i thought that maybe it was bound up, but i had the track completely loose and the motor still didn't do anything. now could it be possible that the motor went bad or did it simply just bind up somehow?
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Chances are its the motor. You'll have to tear into it either way. There is a how-to on this site (maybe under the tech section) for removing the window and regulator. If you haven't done this make sure and read the directions as the regulator has a counterbalance spring that'll hurt you. Once you get it apart if you find the motor works with no load you might be able to find something bound up or needing lube, but I doubt it.