73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Engine/Drivetrain => Topic started by: drtbikkid on April 18, 2011, 08:08:08 am
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i got the mini starter in my K10. it worked the 1st couple passes then went back to just grinding. i tried with and without the shims. i am assuming the pinion is too far from the fly wheel. i know about the paper clip trick, but could some one give me some more detailed instructions on how to get the pinion gear out manually to check.
Also, if it comes to replacing the fly wheel, i had heard that some just have a replaceable ring. a much cheaper fix. does any one know if my 1984 305 Truck motor would have this option?
and any other ideas for this alignment issue would be appreciated. i think i may try to grind some off the the starter housing to get it closer to the fly wheel. i guess anything i grind off can be shimmed back if i need.
any thoughts?
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Can't help you on the alignment but about the ring never heard of that and since its welded in I would worry about balance
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oh ok. i had heard that some years/ models of 305 had a press fit ring as opposed to a welded one.
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You just pull on the gear. If you cant grab it, use a flat tip screwdriver. Then check for proper spacing. Dont grind anything.
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Im not sure what you mean by "a paper clip trick" But I know that to properly shim a starter you need to be able to fit a 1/8ths Allen key in between the starter and the flywheel gear. But that is so It does not whine when you start it. I cant help with the grinding.
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yeah the paper clip trick is the same. that helps more, to have a real measurement. all the stuff i read says you should use a paper clip as opposed to the 1/8 Allen. i was wondering "what size paper clip" so that helps a lot. i tried the starter with no shims and it seemed best. so i still think my issue is that the starter is too far away form the flywheel.
thats why i wanted to surface some of the starter housing where it mates to the block.
I'm about out of other options before changing the flywheel.
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Are you using actual starter bolts?
The distance between the starter gear and the ring gear needs to be measured and proper as well.
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i am using the new, shorter bolts that came with my mini starter. are you talking about the alignment on the horizontal axis (the pinion could be going past the ring or not far enough out into it?) i feel my problem is in the verticle axis.
can the horizontal axis alignment cause problems too? if so, how do i adjust? slot the bolt holes in the starter?
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Yes, horizontal. Some starts are designed so it can be shimmed if the starter gear doesnt engage far enough. What brand and part number do you have for the starter? Some starters are also designed to be used on only one specific tooth count flywheel.
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The Brand i guess is "Lester" its a cheap unit from DB electrical. i know. i know. its worth the extra cash for a good one. i didn't want to go the rout at first, because the factory starter still worked, just had the same alignment issues as well... so if I'm gonna chew one up trying to sort out this problem, i would rather it be a cheapey.
the starter has staggered bolt holes, so from what i understand if it has stagerred pattern then its for a 168 tooth truck motor. so do some of the higher end starters have slotted bolt holes for horizontal alignment?
more and more i am thinking it must be my flywheel. just denial i guess.
what else are you thinking?
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If you suspect the flywheel or flexplate, have you looked at it?
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A flywheel has a ring gear that can be replaced. The flexplate is welded.
As far as shimming:
http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?topic=18042.0
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thanks for the tip vile. the post didnt come up in any of my searches. where do you get this stuff!? im going to try that as soon as i get home.
as far as flywheels, how worn is worn? does anyone know a spec for the height from peak to valley on a new flywheel Tooth? the one on my truck is worn... not just sure if its TOO worn.
hopefully that shim on the outside will solve my issue.
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How bout a pic of the flywheel? If it's evenly worn shimming it may do the trick otherwise you'll need to replace it.
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well back to the drawing board. i tried about 5 different combos of shimming. it would catch a couple times then go back to grinding. this sounds just like the guy on that post you referred me to... except the shimming didn't get it.
now i guess i have some real decisions.
is it worth a flywheel replacement when i can get a used 350 for so cheap?
what would the chances be that i get a new flywheel in it, and it turns out to still not align?
seeing as how its a 4 speed 4X4, I'm sure that the transmission and transfer case are not light.. i heard something about all cast iron?
have any suggestions on options from here? i open to about anything at this point i guess.
good thing the body on the truck is rough... no one can see the dent i put in it with a steel toe yesterday :'(
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could be worn on part of the flywheel. whats trans do you have
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pix
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it has a granny 4 speed manual.
i will try to get some pics up today. hopefully the ol cell phone cam will have enough detail.
i am also going to put the OE starter back in and try the 1 side shim idea on it. and order a brace from summit. i couldnt find much detail on the specs of that brace.. how confident are we it will fit my 305?
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what brace??? most time sb will fit sb but 400s now they are diffrent
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this brace: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-354353/ (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-354353/)
not sure if mine came with one factory or not... know anything about these?
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Update: my starter brace will be here form summit tomorrow. i will get some pics of the teeth up today.
i read some other stuff about adding grounds to alleviate some strain from the starter. does anyone know the best locations for those?
i have heard:
firewall to block.
block to frame
battery to fender
battery to alt brkt
seeing as it is not original motor, im sure not all of the factory grounds are in place from what ever hill billy did the swap.
should there be any grounds coming to or from the starter?
i miss my truck!
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just what is in the stock location will be fine. body to block, block to frame, battery to block. your problem isnt the grounds if you have these three.
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got around to getting some pics of my flywheel. how do yall think the teeth look? anything else about the set up jump out?
this is my 1st time posting pics, let me know if they come out alright.
(http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i458/drtbikkid/fly2.jpg)
(http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i458/drtbikkid/fly1.jpg)
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Looks like it will live. You should have fusible links where you have those butt connectors.
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i found the bolt holes on mine were either wollored out or 10mm instead of 3/8. tomarrow i am going to get another starter nose and im getting a bracket but i dont no what i need or where it goes.
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that fixed mine. when previous owner replaced starter nose shop used a newr one with 10mm then 3/8 bolts. can you say sloppy. now it is nice and tight and works good. i am putting front bracket on tomarrow when it gets here. my fly wheel looked worse so urs should be fine. for those about to rock!
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so should i tap the holes out to a 10mm-1.25 or something? where did you get the new hardware, as i am assuming my bolts are 3/8's.
or are you saying, that the 10mm bolts fit in the wollered out 3/8 hole with out tapping.
i was thinking about trying a helicoil. anyone ever have any luck with those in this situation? i am afraid the threads are too deep to use one effectively.
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throwing a 10mm bolt in a 3/8 hole will work once or twice, IF it doesnt wear from the starter torque. Id hate to be driving down the road and all of a sudden im dragging my starter.
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i got a older starter nose that had 3/8 holes and used my 3/8 bolts. your starter has 10mm holes if its a newr gear reduction starter. when u buy a starter go to someone who specializes in that. rebuilding starters and take ur bolts and try them in the starter. they shpould fit snug
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Where did you get the starter? Is it oem for a later model truck, or aftermarket for a "regular" sbc? There's only .019" difference between a 10mm and 3/8", not saying that doesn't matter but that sure doesn't seem like much.
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it is a new lester brand from DB electrical. i agree with you, but some times a half millimeter makes the difference. im kinda out of options. remember also, i had this same condition with the OE starter.
could i heli-coil those holes? or drill a tap a larger size?
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You said earlier that you are using the bolts that came with the starter--so there shouldn't be any slop beyond what is designed. As long as the tapped holes in your block are holding I think you're barking up the wrong tree. You said you tried shimming it different ways, but are you just guessing? Have you pulled the starter gear into the flywheel teeth and measured the gap with a paper clip? Can you observe grind marks on the end of the starter gear (you might look at your old one as well). I have never done this so it may not work, but I would think you could disconnect your positive battery cable from the starter and just jump positive to the small "s" terminal on the solenoid to observe the gear meshing with the flywheel without engaging the motor just to try and get a visual on what's happening.
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i know a 3/8 bolt wont fit a 10mm hole. the starter bolt has a shoulder so it will fit tight. all you have to do is measure the bolt hole with a set of calipers. i would bet that the oem starter has been changed at some time and has 10mm bolt holes. it is easy to mistake. i went from having to shim and only work a couple of tries to now no shims and it meshes perfect.
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DRDIRT11: He put this mini starter on and used the bolts that came with it--and presumably they fit his block when he put them in. You think he got a starter designed for 10mm bolts that came with 3/8 bolts?
Cracked starter nose, loose bolts, chewed flywheel teeth, incorrect gap (shimming). If you haven't checked gap than my monopoly money's on that one.
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i talked to a fellow who rebuilds starters and he said unless a starter has beengrinded on or resurfaced you should never have to shim. i dont know about aftermarket. i took mine back off, rewired it, put the front bracket on, and torqued everything. never turned over better. dont know what would be wrong with yours but i figured out mine and just tryin to help. i fought mine forever. hope you guys figure it out. im out.
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i talked to a fellow who rebuilds starters and he said unless a starter has beengrinded on or resurfaced you should never have to shim. i dont know about aftermarket. i took mine back off, rewired it, put the front bracket on, and torqued everything. never turned over better. dont know what would be wrong with yours but i figured out mine and just tryin to help. i fought mine forever. hope you guys figure it out. im out.
I hope you didn't think I was picking on your advice--I know you're just trying to help. I just didn't want the op doing anything crazy until he checked the basics.
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drtbikkid - Did you address those fusible links? Where did you get that starter? It looks like you have metric bolts in there.
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Check and make sure your outer bolt hole on the block is not chiped or cracked this will cause the problem your having I've been fighting mine for about 8months for this issue I ended up swaping on a old iron 3bolt nose cone and a brace and so far knock on wood its been working.
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Update
i put my old starter back in and have been getting mediocre results with one shim on the outside. the bolt hold is definitely chipped. could you give some more info on the "iron 3 hole" nose cone? that sounds like it could help me a lot.
Vile: i did get the fusible link in, and i will take another pic today to confirm with ya.
i think during all this i may have jumped time or something. its now having hot starting issues, but not form the starter. its a vaporization or fire issue or something.
it truly is one thing after another with these old birds ain't it! gotta love em though.
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If that starter bolt hole is chipped it will cause these issues that's what I fought with on mine. I ended up breaking the whole nose off of the iron starter I was using friday. I broke down and bought a powermaster 9612 starter it uses all three holes but only comes with 2 bolts so you will have to match up wht 3rd bolt. It was $217 shipped but I recomend it. Very high quality and it starts better now than it ever has even better than when I had the stock 305. Check out my thread .
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yeah thanks for that screamin.
i saw that post about 5 min after i replied. great trucks break a like i guess...
by the way, where did you get the 3rd bolt. auto store?