73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Brakes, Frame, Steering & Suspension => Topic started by: Tazman on August 24, 2011, 03:15:54 pm
-
My truck has developed a vibration that starts at 55 mph and is a little worse at 65.Tires are balanced and alignment was done a month ago.Two of the tires are new and the others two years old.It is mainly felt in the steering wheel but can also be felt in the seat at times.Any ideas on what could be the problem?Thanks
-
I have had wheel bearings cause those symptoms as well as warped rotors believe it or not.
-
I replaced the bearing when I did the rotors and brakes two weeks ago.
-
Is this a new vibration?
-
Yes
-
Loose wheel bearings would be the first place to look if it were me...
-
I will check the front first and see if that is the problem.Thanks
-
weights can fall off.
-
weights can fall off.
New tires can be slightly out of round and still be in balance.
-
since its a new problem i would think something had to change, a weight fell off or busted belt
-
The tires where just balanced yesterday .
-
The tires where just balanced yesterday .
would of been good to know lol
i would swap tires front to back, back to front and see if the vibration follows
-
Did that already after the first balance on Friday.Had three year old tires on the front did a swap front to rear and balance,went for a drive with no change.With that I ordered two new tires to replace the three year old ones.Put them on yesterday and today was the first time back to 55 and over and the vibration is still there.I will check the bearings and go from there.Thanks
-
again more details left out. Lol cmon bud help us out
-
We need to know when all of this started? Before the tires as in it has always been there? Or did you change something and the vibration showed up after that.
-
That is a very good question.For the last eight weeks my truck has not gone much due to a coworker doing all the driving to work.So the truck was only used around home where you never go over 45.A couple of weeks ago I had to dive a day or two and that is when I started to notice it,yet still not driving a lot to worry about it.Slowly that changed and I thought it was the three year old tires.So with the alignment already done I had them rebalanced.That is when everything else took place.Like I said the bearings were replaced when I did the rotors and pads.I will check the bearings first and go from there.Thanks
-
Is the vibration coming from the front as in the steering wheel is "twitching" or you feel it is in the front.
Check the idler arms and tie rod ends also.
-
Automotive vibrations are the product of unbalanced kinetic energy. Vibrations can not be achieve by loose or worn front end parts. They are a phenomena, created by (usually round) unbalanced heavy objects spinning at high speed. Period.
KINETIC ENERGY
"The energy an object displays or possesses because of some kind of motion or action."
SPINNING THINGS.
What would the results be if a two ounce wheel weight was installed on the blade of a perfectly balanced ceiling fan? If turned to high, The fan would fly-apart or be a wobbling mess. Now, Imagine if you could increase the RPM's of this fan by four times. Tires on a car traveling 60 MPH rotate 400% faster then any ceiling fan on high. The energy this rotating action creates is called kinetic. Basically; the faster an object is moving, the larger the radius, and the more it weighs, combined to determine how much energy an object can possess.
Why do vibrations have the pattern or frequencies they have? Why do vibrations intensify with speed? The reason is; Vibrations usually come from the tires on the non-drive axles, which are propelled by the forward motion of the vehicle's own kinetic energy. Meaning, Tires rotate at speeds relative to their radius and the vehicle's speed.
There is a difference of dynamics going on between front and rear wheel driven vehicles, i.e. Vibrations coming from a front tire on a (rear wheel) drive vehicle, can produce more energy then a front tire on a (front wheel) drive vehicle. The reason is; the drivetrain seems to hold back the kinetic energy some, it's not so free flowing. I have personally never seen a front wheel drive vehicle bounce a front tire off the road, unlike the early F-150 I saw on the freeway the other day. The left front tire had to be bouncing up and down 3 inches. I'm not 100% sure physics will back up my last point, but I bet it does.
Vibrations that come from Driveshafts, torque-convertors, and the like, rotate relative to the engines RPM's not the vehicle's speed. The large radius, weight, and RPM's of tires and wheels make them the best suspects for vibrations. The amount of energy they can display is astonishing! Enough energy can be produced to bounce a tire off the road - on a vehicle weighing thousands of pounds, is in-effect stuck to the Earth by gravity and simultaneously hurdling down the road with it's own kinetic energy
LOOSE THINGS
Say you forgot to install an inner front wheel bearing. How would this manifest into a drivability issue? The truth is; at most, you'd hear (save for the casual clunk) is a slight to moderate growl, or maybe feel a slight vibration with no discernible pattern. Actually; all you really have here is, the rotor grinding down a spindle. The type of energy created here is heat not kinetic. Save for the "casual clunk" there is nothing here that would suggest the area where the spindle and rotor are grinding, would be forced apart. And certainly; never in an rapid up and down motion, which basically is - what a vibration is.
On the other hand, loose parts can... "contribute" to a vibration. But in 15 years of brake & front end work, and another 15 years of servicing a rural UPS fleet. I've seen only one time, what I would call a loose front end part proportionally more responsible for a vibration, then the balance problem was. It was 1983 the car was a 1976 Ford Capri, the write up said "check vibration." The relatively thick rack and pinion bushings had become so oil soaked, they had completely deteriorated. Nothing was supporting the rack, it was basically free floating between the U brackets and the car's body. Even with this unusual condition, it still took a balance problem in one of the tires, for me to experience that unforgettable test drive.
CONCLUSION
How many times have you said, or heard anyone say "man that camshaft sure was causing a bad vibration?" My guess is, you've never heard this, nor will you ever. The reason for this is; camshafts don't have the mass or radius to get a detectable vibration going. Sure it has the speed but it's missing the other two essential components; namely, weight and radius. Parts like; idler arms, steering dampeners, tie rod ends, ball joints, are in fact missing all three components needed to generate a vibration. And that is why it's nonsense to suggest these front end parts can cause vibrations. Look guys, it all breaks down to this; vibrations require energy, energy requires movement. It's that simple, and once you understand this, 90% of your vibration issues are over.
Hope this helps...
-
On the other hand, loose parts can... "contribute" to a vibration. But in 15 years of brake & front end work, and another 15 years of servicing a rural UPS fleet. I've seen only one time, what I would call a loose front end part proportionally more responsible for a vibration, then the balance problem was. It was 1983 the car was a 1976 Ford Capri, the write up said "check vibration." The relatively thick rack and pinion bushings had become so oil soaked, they had completely deteriorated. Nothing was supporting the rack, it was basically free floating between the U brackets and the car's body. Even with this unusual condition, it still took a balance problem in one of the tires, for me to experience that unforgettable test drive.
CONCLUSION
How many times have you said, or heard anyone say "man that camshaft sure was causing a bad vibration?" My guess is, you've never heard this, nor will you ever. The reason for this is; camshafts don't have the mass or radius to get a detectable vibration going. Sure it has the speed but it's missing the other two essential components; namely, weight and radius. Parts like; idler arms, steering dampeners, tie rod ends, ball joints, are in fact missing all three components needed to generate a vibration. And that is why it's nonsense to suggest these front end parts can cause vibrations. Look guys, it all breaks down to this; vibrations require energy, energy requires movement. It's that simple, and once you understand this, 90% of your vibration issues are over.
-
i had the same thing going on in my truck but didnt think to much becasue when i put my new wheels and tires on one one wheel is a little bent so i put it in the back but i went to get it inspected and tie rod was bad so i changed it and the vibration was gone so maybe this is what ur having problems with.
-
Loose front end parts do not cause vibrations. In over 30 years of fixing cars and trucks, I've never seen it. Somebody please explain to me the physics behind a loose tie rod end developing or contribute to sufficient enough kinetic energy being produced to shake a car.
What will happen in the case of a very loose tie rod end is this. The force of the road on the tire will force that tire to toe out, (or in, but probably out ) but the point is, the car's own forward energy and gravity will hold the tire either out or in. It's not going shake. Here's what you can do, find a mechanic engineer and explain to him/her your idea. You will real fast get a lesson in kinetic energy.
Think about it, in your scenario the only possible explanation is, the looseness in the tie rod end would allow the spindle and tire the move rapidly in a left and right direction
perpendicular to a vehicle. Have you ever seen that on the highway? a tire moving rapidly perpendicular to a vehicle left and right. The answer is no, unless the wheel is bent or the tire is coming loose. But you probably have seen a tire moving up and down rapidly. Now, that will cause a vibration.
Really, I'm only trying to help.
-
Driveline? Bad u-joint?
-
seen a loose lug nut cause a vibration
-
Yes! Loose lug nuts can cause vibrations. That's because, were getting back to the tires... Where the kinetic energy is being created. Drive shifts yes, all day long can cause vibrations.
Remember this, vibrations need energy, and energy comes from movement.
Ball joints, tie rod ends, steering dampeners, idler arms, they don't move, other then
their attached to a moving vehicle.
I once had a shop owner tell me "it's not impossible to have just one plug wire crossed" :-)
-
ball joints and tie rods have ball joints which do move.
-
ball joints and tie rods have ball joints which do move.
Yup... But this type movement is not what cYup... But this type of movement doesn't create kinetic energy. Here is something I wrote, and posted yesterday.
"Vibrations can not be achieve by loose or worn front end parts. They are a phenomena, created by (usually round) unbalanced heavy objects spinning at high speed. Period."
There are three things required to developed sufficient energy to be noticed as a vibration. Weight, speed, and radius.
The more it weighs, the larger the diameter, and the faster it's spinning, all combined to determine how much kinetic energy
an object can display (and, it's this displaying action that manifests it's self as a vibration.) How much does the pivoting end of a tie rod end weigh? Not much. How fast does a tie rod end spin? Actually, it doesn't spin, it just twists a little, probably less then 50 deg. in both directions.
Round heavy spinning objects create and store large amounts of energy very efficiently. That's why objects like, tires & wheels, torque convertors, brake drums, driveshafts, crankshafts, are balanced before they start to do their job. How many times have you heard said, "Man that cam shaft sure was causing a bad vibration." odds are you haven't, the reason is, camshafts don't weigh enough and their radius isn't large enough to cause a problem if they were to become off balanced.
Vehicles traveling down the road are an amazing thing. They have all this stored energy. And, going on inside and under, are all these other spinning heavy objects with there own dynamics. But, once that apple cart gets disturbed, things happen very rapidly. People do get hurt, one time I've seen the results of a out of balanced tire, after it had torn a spindle apart.
Hope this help...
I once had a shop owner tell me "it's possible to have just one plug wire crossed" :-)
-
Sorry guys, for the multiple posts. I been using an iPad app to post. It would sometimes leaving off half my words, and other times, appear to post none.
-
I've been working on vehicles for 30 plus years as well. I have had bad tie rods create a vibration. They have to be really lose to do so, like ready to fall apart lose, but they can. If they are lose enough they will cause a wheel, and tire to wobble the simalar to a lose lug nut.
-
yes mine was very bad i cant believe i was driving with it i knew it had to be it becasue that is all i changed and the shacking stopped
-
Ok, so what kind of a pattern would the situation, a tire wobbling like you suggested,
from a loose tie rod end, leave on a tire?
I once had a shop owner tell me "it's possible to have just one plug wire crossed" :-)
-
Check yer fan, too ;)
-
I'll leave you with these thoughts. There is a tire wear pattern for; toe in, toe out, + camber, — camber, over inflation, under inflation, bad shocks (which is a a lot of BS) what the shock posters try to say is shock wear. Is actually, a balance problem. With as many tie rod ends as there are, and a loose one could (exclusively) cause a tire to wobble. Then you would expect to see a tire ware pattern for "wobbling tires."
What is the essence of the short life of a spinning gyro? Answer, to spin straight. If they don't spin straight, they soon fall. I mean, they use to keep speeding rockets upright with these things. It is my contention, that tires behave no differently then spinning gyros. Excluding turning the dead gyros in to really ugly sandals, there essence is very similar. Now, add the weight of the tires and wheel in to the equation, you now have a (super gyro) something very hard to get out of that grove of spinning straight. Centrifugal force, kinetic energy, the weight of gravity of the vehicle, all strive to keep a tire perpendicular to its axis, the center line running through the spindle. Regardless if its side support is loose, a perfectly balanced tire will spin straight. Which, relative to our discussion, all a tie rod end is, is a pivoting support for the spindle.
I'm not saying what you say didn't happen, I'm sure it did. But this is how. It probably was a larger tire with a slight -- slightly moderate :-) balanced problem. And the completely loose tie rod end you talked about (contributed) to the overall instability of the tire's axis. So theres no misunderstanding here, there would be NO shaking save for that balance problem to get the (vibration) ball rolling. And after changing the tie rod end, the tire gets its axis support back, and BANG! happy customer. But the vehicle still has that slight annoying little shake...
I once had a shop owner tell me "it's possible to have just one plug wire crossed" :-)
-
The tenacity here is great. I've not brought this up because it seems contradictory to my arguments that loose front end parts "don't cause vibrations."
The front end part continually used to refute my assertions is the "tie rod end," and the reason for that, in a backwards kind of way makes both our points.
This is why. I have said, the effect of a loose tie rod end is seen in the toe wear, not in the appearance of a wobbling tire. Actually, this is not the proper way to state this.
Because, there are two different plains a tire can wobble on, up and down is one, the other is left and right perpendicular to the direction the vehicle is traveling. Except for a bent wheel tires don't wobble in that plain. This is why loose tie rod ends pattern ware is covered in "toe wear"
Backing up now to everyone's example of the tie rod end causing vibrations. Once a tie rod end starts to become loose, the pressure on the tire from the road pushes it to an abnormal toe setting. As we all know, the effect of this is a grinding away of one side or another of the tire. This may appear even to the eye, but it isn't. And the unevenness of the toe wear (causes a balance problem,) the looser the tie rod end, the more the tire is eaten away, the greater the possibility of having a bigger balance problem.
Consequently, a mechanic who gets a ticket for a vibration, finds the loose tie rod end, fixes it, sets the toe, and maybe even rotates the tires. The loose tie rod being the only real problem he finds, causes the entire problem to be associated back in his mind to the loose tie rod end. When actually it only facilitated an environment for the kinetic energy to start bouncing the vehicle.
Loose tie rod ends are notorious for eating tires. No other front end part can decimate tires faster then tie rod ends, that's why they are set apart from any other front end part in the matter at hand.
I once had a shop owner tell me "it's possible to have just one plug wire crossed" :-)
-
so if the problem was the tire from the get go then why after fixing it then rotating it would the problem not continue on a different side. because the tie rod was the problem once it was fixed no more problems. now what your kind of saying is that the only way a tie rod could cause this problem if it was multiple problems stacked up but only fixing one fixed it all. and i think we all know a tire/wheel even new wont be prefect this is why they put the weights on it so if a tire came out of balance due to a weight falling off or busted belt the problem would still be with the wheel and any shop would balance the wheel first or even second after taking it off. dont get me wrong i understand what your saying about pysicics and all your experience but sometimes you have to think outside the box
-
The tie rod I was refering to was on my 78 K 20. I had bought the truck, and noticed this a couple days later. The truck had a slight vibration, wobble what ever you like to call it. It could be felt in the steering wheel at lower speeds. After a couple days of this I checked the entire truck over and made a list of what it needed. Only thing I could find was a ready to fall apart tie rod end that was not that lose when I checked it out for purchase. I don't think the previous owner new what a grease gun was! Only other thing I found was it needed rear brakes, and e brake cables. Other than that it was inspectable. I swapped a tie rod end on on my lunch break in the parking lot. On the ride home the vibration / wobbel was gone. I didn't rotate the tires, I didn't balance them. I didn't even check the alignment. I just counted the turns out, and put the new one back in the same amount. The tires were all only a few months old, the recipt for them, and the rims was in the glove box. The inflation of all four tires was very close to each other, difference of three, or four pounds between all four.
In other words the only thing I replaced was the tie rod, and it cured the problem.
-
"so if the problem was the tire from the get go then why after fixing it then rotating it would the problem not continue on a different side"
Well, first, most of the tires sold today should be rotated so that they rotate the same direction. I always rotated, front to rear, rear to front. So The problem goes to the rear, same side. Continuing... in my example I said "and maybe even rotate the tires" I don't write for a living, my complete thought was—and balance them too— like many mechanics I've ran across over the years, I suffer from dyslexia. Putting our thoughts to paper is hard enough, even with strenuous concentration, they can be not complete or reversed, and we never see it. You all would be very surprised to learn how long it took me to write any post.
Moving on. Say the tire with the toe-wear wasn't balanced. There are two factors here I would have you consider. The tire with a balance problem is now on the rear. balance problems on rear tires are diminished because the drive-train holds back so of the K.G. it's not so free flowing. And, you've just put the tire to what is effectually ( a straight axle.) And I don't know about you, but I and many front end guys I know, have let the rear axle sand down that little bit of toe-ware. I'm sure your aware of what they call "malwear" if your not, it's the uneven pattern that develops on the rear tires, on front wheel drive cars. If you balance and rotate these to the front, the malwear is sanded back to normal in just few weeks.
"sometimes you have to think outside the box"
About the tire going to the rear. Your logic may have been skewed by my incomplete thought. But, the tire balance wasn't my larger point. Which brings us to the elephant in the room, and a point I keep bringing up. Namely, tires and wheels, because of the way round spinning things are governed by physical law, centrifugal force and kinetic energy, they are akin to a spinning gyro, and being so, if they were somehow knocked off their straight plain, they would recenter themselves. The fact they are hooked to a loose tie rod end is insignificant. Tires can not wobble rapidly (the definition of a vibration) in the plain the makes the scenario, of a loose tie rod end exclusively causing a vibration tenable.
There are over 250 million vehicles in this country, that's half a billion tie rod ends. I have asked for the name of the tire ware, or what that pattern would look like, with no response. Most front end guys can at a glance of any tire wear, pretty much know what numbers are going to pop-up on the alignment machine. The wear pattern tells the story, it's like a finger print. Personally, I can see 1/16" toe-wear at 10 feet. I'm using this example demonstratively, to show, very slight imperfections are left on the tire rubber, which can be interpreted. To suggest, your scenario would not leave a pattern on a tire is dismissive at best.
I have made my views known well, I've said these views are factually based. In return, all I get is anecdotal examples. In a forum dedicated to the integrity of the business of repairing vehicles. Those words should be considered something just under blasphemy, I know they were to me. And after my audible guffaw, I spent the next six months on and off (with a front end shop at my disposal) trying to disprove this. I found the truth for myself, before the age of the internet, google, you tube, iPads, or whatever... If I'm wrong, it's just a google away.
I once had a shop owner tell me "it's possible to have just one plug wire crossed" :-)
-
with today’s tires. i know on my cars they arnt directional so even chevy suggest rotation like this move left rear to left front same for the right then take the right front and move to the left rear and left front to right rear. unless they are directional this is how they should be rotated so they will see all four corners and get the most life out of a tire. now no one said anything about tire ware with tie-rods i mean if i feel a vibration i try to fix it asap cause its usually means something is about to fail. so if you kept driving with a bad tie-rod i would imagine it would show the signs of a bad alignment but i and people who care about their tires or life wouldn’t keep driving with a known problem. most tire ware problems ant noticed till they check their tires thats when they say oh something is wrong.
-
Blazin:
Your arguments do skip most of the peripheral crap, getting to the heart of the issue. In your post you said "low-speed vibration," and that for sure would eliminate any tire balance problem. Which only get worse with speed.
And that is precisely what I thought when playing with all this. At low speeds the tire doesn't spin fast enough to straighten itself out, so low speed vibrations could be caused from a tie rod. But, that was not demonstrated by my experiments.
-----
This is a learning forum.
Don't trust just counting the revolutions when replacing a tie rod. It assumes a few things; The pryer alignment was done with a rigid tie rod, the tie rod end you just installed is exactly the same as you just removed.
Tip: Most people do this work with the front end unloaded (jacked-up) driving around a bit or give the front bumper a few jumps is helpful.
Counting the revolutions is obviously a good start, but I found it accurate 10% maybe 20% of the time. You see the results once you get the vehicle on a alignment machine. Maybe two out of ten done the way, (total-toe) is within specs.
I uploaded a diagram that is a home remedy for setting your total-toe.
-
it appears somehow users insert other users comments from posts, how is the html copied?
Also, is it common, for an image not to send after its attached?
Image did not take...
-
top right of the post is a quote button or when your replying to a post look down then at the top right it says insert quote
-
I don't rely on counting the threads to align it. As I stated in my post I did this on lunch break, in the parking lot. It was my top concern to get home that night without it falling apart, and causing me to wreck. A few days later I got it close is good with a scribe, and tape messure. Then a few weeks later after the brakes etc. were done I took it, and had it aligned.
We rotate heavy truck tires from side to side all the time. If they go to far with an uneven pattern its very hard to get them to stop. If they stay on the same side of the truck they will keep on wearing that same pattern. Have flipped a steering tire plenty of times on the rim as well when it has uneven wear starting.
As far as alignments on heavy trucks we set the toe in a 1/16" to the front. We use a scribe and tape messure. There are only a couple of shops around that do heavy truck alignments on a rack.
As far as rear axle alignment on heavy trucks the left hand side has adjustable torque rods. Its just a matter of marking the center of the axle tube, and alot of messuring from two identical points on the frame.
-
dang blaz you must have a ipeed also
-
ipeed?? What??? ???
-
ipad ;) cause there was a double post
-
Nope, no I pad. just PC here!
-
diphthong, thank you for contributing so much to this thread. The information from your years of experience corrected many of the things I thought I knew.