73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Interior & Equipment => Topic started by: firefighter on February 11, 2012, 11:34:08 pm
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Sorry about this. I know there has been a million threads about stereos.
Well I've gotten to the point of my 1976 truck rebuild were I need to install a music maker.
8 tracks and cassettes are out. I don't own a lot of CD's but I do download music onto cards, sticks, or MP3 players.
To play these, I either need to install one of the "higher priced" original type aftermarket radios and not cut my dash.
OR
Install a newer style radio that is cheaper and a lot more variety, but have to cut my dash.
Am I right on this?
What to do?
Opinions?
I really don't mind cutting my dash if you guys think this will be the best for future upgrades or options.
How in the world do these new stereos even mount into our dashes? Do they have to be supported somehow at the rear of the radio too?
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cut the dash…unless youre doing a period resto, whats the point in not upgrading the radio? i got a pioneer cd player/radio with USB and AUX input w/4 pioneer speakers for 100$ at wallyworld. that and a 8" JBL sub powered by a simple 400W DUAL brand amp. altogether i spent about 200 bucks…but if i ever sell the truck it'll be worth more than that. you can get good deals on amazon.com for speakers/cdplayers etc.
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Yeah, I'm not doing any kind of pristine resto. I just want to crank up some tunes while driving or cutting wood.
I figured I'd be able to get something cheaper and more modern if I gave up, and broke out the cutting wheel. :)
How do these modern units fit in the dash. Do they clamp somehow? I'll do a little more searching in the archives....
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The ones I have seen are a little skimpy in directions. Seems you have to get creative with your bracketing to get it solidly mounted in a place where a single DIN sized radio wasn't there in the first place... Got factory AC? If not that is an easier way to go. http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php/topic,22535.0.html
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I am going to go a different route with mine than most people. I believe I have seen the old style ones that are push button and digital I think inside. I want it to look stock, but have the upgrades inside, with the mp3 plug in I believe.
I know they are more money, but I think these old looking ones will look better.
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What I tell folks is to go with what looks best to you and has the most funtions. The biggest feature your radio should have is an aux input on the front face plate. It utilizes a headphone jack. This way you can plug up your cell or mp3 player and control it from there, also you now have hands free like the new cars and people that pay hundreds for those bluetooth adapters:) event the cheapest radios have the aux input on front now.
At this point all you'd need is a cord with a head phone jack on each end($10.00)
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If you don't mind losing the OE look, you'll get more bang and variety for your buck with DIN. But, measure twice, cut once; and consider future access/servicing when planning your install. The DIN radio requires no more space than the OE radio (while some DIN radios aren't as deep).
The DIN style radio slips into a half-chassis (rectangular sheetmetal sleeve) that mounts through the dash plate using bendable metal tabs that anchor behind the dash. Rear radio support is similar to OE, using a metal strap, but it's prudent to make your own that is heavier gauge than supplied with the radio. Once the subchassis is installed in the dash, the radio slips through the dash plate from the front and locks into place. Install the rear support then snap the trim ring on to finish the look. Removal requires pulling off the trim ring then slipping a tool (supplied with radio) along each side of the radio and pushing rearward to release the locking tangs. Unbolt the rear support and slide the radio forward and out.
But, if you ever need to remove the dash plate to service the cluster, etc, you have the added steps of unbending the tabs to remove the subchassis.
I agonized over the same question you're asking. Once you cut the dash you're committed. When I installed the DIN in my 87, after I cut the dash I discovered I had to fit a textured steel filler panel around the radio to provide a finished look. Fortunately, the result was quite satisfying. My point is: Until you've installed a few, there are often unconsidered problems to solve no matter how thorough your initial planning.
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Heres how I installed my stereo. I have a USB 8gb memory card with all of my music on it and I have it plugged into the front of my stereo. Just remember, you can always easily take away more metal, but its not as easy to put it back on. So, take your time cutting so you dont make the hole too big.
http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php/topic,20413.msg166249.html#msg166249
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http://www.hifisoundconnection.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/2669675/vpcsid/0/SFV/30046?utm_source=google&utm_medium=base&utm_campaign=GoogleBaseFeed
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You guys are the best. Thanks much for taking your time to answer another much previously talked about question.
I was just having a hard time thinking about cutting up the radio area of a cab that I've spent so much time on.
I'm not feeling so bad about it now. OE radio remorse? :)
I'll begin looking for a new age radio and get the cut off tool ready.
Thanks again guys !!
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Like the others said, if you don't mind cutting the dash it can look good with an aftermarket stereo. I myself am going to take a different approach and leave the stock radio in place. I then want my system to run off of just an ipod. I saw this recently in a magazine and like the idea, just gotta figure out the details of how to make it work. I might also just mount an aftermarket head unit either under the dash or make a little console because I don't want to cut mine up. My other thought was to hide it in the glove box but not sure.
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Wife didn't want me to cut the dash, so I bought one of the universal underdash boxes, and mounted it upside-down on the floor hump right in front of the 4x4 selector, actually came out really nice, bit of a reach to change on the fly but not too bad, and actually looks really good
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Wife didn't want me to cut the dash, so I bought one of the universal underdash boxes, and mounted it upside-down on the floor hump right in front of the 4x4 selector, actually came out really nice, bit of a reach to change on the fly but not too bad, and actually looks really good
Pics?
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I recently installed a new alpine deck in my semi. It is the 1 din size. It has hands free blue tooth radio that automatically connects with my phone when I get in the truck. I also run my music from a flash drive. It has a remote control as well. The only feature I am missing is the wireless audio streaming which I some what regret now not getting (The next stereo in the project truck will have that). essentially it will allow you to play music on your phone through your radio without plugging it in. I can do the same now except I have to plug it in. With the semi I can use the I heart radio app on my phone and I can Pick up all my favorite radio stations no matter where I am at. For me it eliminates the need for a satelite radio. As someone who listens to the radio about 50-60 hrs a week I want every modern convenience I can get. When it comes to my old truck I want it to do everthing a new truck can do while looking a whole lot cooler. Consider all of the options with all the new stuff out there and it might sound a little complicated and like you might not use it all, but I found that I want it to do everything. So cut a little hole in your dash and weld it back up someday if you decide it was a bad idea.
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My $0.02 is don't cut the dash.
Not only are you going to cut the dash and loose the metal, you'll have to hack up the dash cluster bezel. There are numerous aftermarket radios that will work without cutting the dash to pieces, example:
http://store.73-87chevytrucks.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=7&Category_Code=RADIO (http://store.73-87chevytrucks.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=7&Category_Code=RADIO)
I opted not to cut the dash on either of my GM trucks. I used the 80's analog Delco AM/FM cassette stereo radio and ran it to a cheap amplifier and then to some decent speakers. It's not Infinity or Bose sound, but that would be lost anyways from the wind noise, the tire noise, exhaust noise and engine noise... In any case, I can use my ipod attached to a cassette adapter and listen to the music I want to hear.
In my younger days, I cut the dash in my '64 F-100 to install a modern radio and speakers. I am kicking myself in the rear now, because to fix that back to stock will require welding and repainting the dash (at the very least).
Personally, I like the looks of the original radio in these trucks. If you can do something better than stock within the original confines, then that's even better.
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I put a Pioneer DEH-6400BT (well whatever the prior version was) in my '77 K20. The new versions don't have a rear iPod connection anymore. Mine does. I routed the iPod cable from the back of the receiver over to the glovebox. The Blue-tooth microphone I routed up the inside of the A-pillar trim to the sunvisor. I really like being able to connect my iPod and store it in that little LH pocket of the A/C glovebox! It is hidden and I have full control over my entire music library from the receiver! The Blue-tooth works surprisingly well. I was worried about the performance in an older truck with more interior noise, but it is very clear. I guess the new ones only have front USB connections because people are using there iPhones and whatnot and don't necessarily want to shove thier phone in the glovebox and forget it. I personally don't like to have to have the cord hanging out the front of the deck and have to constantly be getting it out and putting it away, but then I don't have an iPhone. I know Kenwood makes a deck that has an internal hard-drive and you can load all your music onto the deck and then forget about it! Last time I checked Kenwood though their interface was slow and clunky.
I installed my deck using the proper kit from www.installer.com
If you are careful in positioning your unit, you have a clean, solid install. I love it and want one in my crew cab, but haven't made it a priority yet.
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My alpine which is the current model does have the ipod plug coming from the back of it as well. I however don't have an Iphone. As far as I'm concerned I really like the simplicity of the flash drive. Just plug it in and no cords hanging and ready to play 1000's of songs all sortable by files folder and tracks etc. So easy to put together on the computer and plug it in and its ready to go.
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I had a great guy from this site take the time from his schedule to call me and talk specifics about his install to upgrade to the new style DIN radios.
I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna cut !! ;D
Now that doesn't mean you guys who kept your dashs original were wrong, I just feel I have way more options this way. I'm not trying to keep my truck all original either which is a real factor for some.
I'll start the searching process of finding a unit with the inputs I need with a reasonable price to match.
Here's two more questions though since you guys have been so great:
1: If I'm gonna wanna crank up the tunes every now and then, am I going to pretty much need to purchase an amp too? I'm not trying to bounce quarters off the roof and I'm not gonna have killer subs, but I may want to "Git-R-Dun" every now and then. ;D
I'm sure it will depend on the output wattage of the unit, but most off the shelf "reasonable priced" units most like aren't that powerful, right?
and
2: I can rebuild a truck from the frame up, but I have no idea what you guys are talking about when you speak of hooking your phones up through your radio.
I know the bluetooth is the thing hanging off your ears (I have no idea how they work) but I don't know how or why you hook them up through your radio.
I have a flip phone with no camera or internet on it. I know, I know..... I'm way in the dark ages in this area!!
Thanks again guys, especially you thirsty !!
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If yor phone has a head phone jack that is what you use. The radio will have that same jack on front. Use a cord like http://www.google.com/search?devlocsession=off&client=ms-android-hms-tmobile-us&hl=en&gl=us&source=android-launcher-widget&q=aux+cable+pics&site=images&tbm=isch&biw=533&bih=256&sei=qME5T5OkGsje2AXf_-mzCg#i=12
Then you can play music off your phone and when you press the talk button on your phone the persons voice comes through your sterio:) just make sure the mic on you phone can pic up your voice
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Bluetooth isn't just the ear piece (I personally don't like those things). That is just one example of a Bluetooth device. Bluetooth is just a proprietary open wireless technology. Like the Wi-Fi you might have in your house or at a store, but it is intended for exchanging data over short distances from both fixed and mobile devices. My phone is Bluetooth enabled. Usually in the Tools/Settings Menu you will see a Bluetooth menu. When Bluetooth is turned on, my phone just stays in my pocket when I am driving and it automatically connects to my stereo (wirelessly) in my truck (It automatically connects because I have allowed it to do so). When my phone rings the stereo automatically switches over and it rings through the speakers. I push a button on the stereo and it answers. I just speak normally and the persons voice comes through the car speakers. I even have access to my phone book through the stereo and can push a button and say, "call so-and-so" and it will recognize the name and call that person. It is pretty cool and convenient, especially if you live in a state that has banned talking on your cell phone while driving (without a hands-free device).
Anyways...I'm not a computer/software techie, but this is one technology that I think is pretty handy. I didn't know anything about it until I got that stereo and I just read the instructions and did what it said to set it up.
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Alpine makes an inline amp. It plugs into the back of the head unit where the wire harness would normally plug in and the vehicle wire harness plugs into the mini amp. Kind of a unique product.
As far as playing music from your phone. This can be done wirelessly. The option you are looking for is wireless audio streaming. A nice remote control can also be purchased for the Alpine head units for about $20.
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1: If I'm gonna wanna crank up the tunes every now and then, am I going to pretty much need to purchase an amp too? I'm not trying to bounce quarters off the roof and I'm not gonna have killer subs, but I may want to "Git-R-Dun" every now and then....
For the cleanest, richest sound you'll want an amp. Everyone has their own opinion on this, but (in response to your stated purpose) a quality 4-channel Class D amplifier rated around 70-100 watts RMS per channel will be more than adequate for a truck cab with four small speakers (5.25" to 6.5" front, 4x10" to 6x9" rear), each rated to handle the amp's RMS output. You'll rarely run the amp at greater than ~15%.
Vocals hover around 400 Hz - cymbal clash ~5-8 kHz with a sheen to well over 20 kHz - bass guitar ~30-130 Hz, so look for speakers that have a broad frequency response (realistically, ~65 Hz to 25+ kHz for the small sizes mentioned) and rigid cones. If you like the richness of full bass you'll need a sub (because of space constraints in a truck, 8" to 10", reproducing ~25 Hz to ~250 Hz). You can make larger subs fit, but the required space can make them a challenge. Generally, the bigger the sub, the deeper the base, the larger the enclosure, and the greater the power demand to move the air. You can save some cab space and integrate a sub into your initial design by using a 5-channel amp, or you can expand later using a self-powered sub.
When mounting speakers, do your best to protect the speakers from water and dust. Use dedicated fused copper cables to power your amp. Match your speaker and power cable sizes to your amp and the length of run. Add a capacitor if you install a sub and your lights flicker in cadence with deep notes.
I hope this provides food for thought and helps answer at least one of your questions. Regarding sound systems, your limited only by your imagination, your wallet and maybe your wife.... ;D
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That is good information bd. Kind of like sound systems for dummies. You touched base on what most people assume every knows. A lot of us were raising kids during the big stereo craze and missed the boat. Now us metal heads from back then want something occasionally loud and obnoxious but it is not a priority like it would be for some of the younger guys. Thanks.
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I hope this provides food for thought and helps answer at least one of your questions.
Are you kidding me? You HOPE this provides me with food for thought? This is the gourmet meal my friend!!
You gave me great information !!
Thank you very much for taking the time to write all that down for me. I truly appreciate it.
Yeah thirsty, back when some guys were learning about kick butt sound systems, I was busy doing other things.
My wife just rolls her eyes now when I pull out of the driveway with Molly Hatchet, BTO or Blackfoot cranked up. Ha Ha !!! ;D
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Blackfoot, Zeppelin, Floyd... those were the days.... 8)
...course those were also the days of 8-tracks... :o
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Blackfoot, Zeppelin, Floyd... those were the days.... 8)
...course those were also the days of 8-tracks... :o
What dazes? Did I miss something back then...? :o Why do I get the feeling I should be remembering something here?haha
Or maybe it's that I didn't miss out on anything back then. ;D
Gonna go watch "That 70's Show" If I remember anything I will let you guys know.
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8 track is that the thing that was kinda long and rectangular lookin? Just kidding I had one of them but it was sesame street but then again I was born in 77. When a band puts out a new cd I usually ask friends if they heard the new album form 5 finger death punch or what ever band it is. Horns in the air headbanging till I die. Floyd, Zeppelin, and Sabbith are in my mp3 player as well.
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Ok, one more question on mounting the new DIN cage into my dash.
For those of you that used the aftermarket mounting plate, how does this item work? Where does the DIN cage mount to, your metal dash or to the plastic instrument panel?
These are the aftermarket plates I've seen:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-XI4a19cxIYJ/p_176GM16/Chevrolet-GMC-In-dash-Receiver-Kit.html#customer-reviews-tab
and
http://www.hifisoundconnection.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/2669675/vpcsid/0/SFV/30046?utm_source=google&utm_medium=base&utm_campaign=GoogleBaseFeed
Are these kits supplying just a metal plate, or some kind of plate with the DIN already mounted to it?
If you mount the DIN cage flush into the metal dash, when you put the plastic instrument panel cover on, you won't be able to snap the face plate onto your head unit.
I have found if you mount the DIN cage into the plastic instrument panel cover, you have a devil of a time getting the instrument panel cover on and off. Actually I've found it to be almost impossible if you have an automatic transmission. ;D
I know there is a lot of things I could do to custom fabricate a metal plate or modify something, but I'm just curious how the aftermarket kits install.
Pics? Instructions? Details? Tips?
Thank you.
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Another vote for cutting the dash. You'll get waaay more for your money that way.
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Ok, one more question on mounting the new DIN cage into my dash.
For those of you that used the aftermarket mounting plate, how does this item work? Where does the DIN cage mount to, your metal dash or to the plastic instrument panel?
....
Are these kits supplying just a metal plate, or some kind of plate with the DIN already mounted to it?
....
If you mount the DIN cage flush into the metal dash, when you put the plastic instrument panel cover on, you won't be able to snap the face plate onto your head unit.
I have found if you mount the DIN cage into the plastic instrument panel cover, you have a devil of a time getting the instrument panel cover on and off. Actually I've found it to be almost impossible if you have an automatic transmission. ;D
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I know there is a lot of things I could do to custom fabricate a metal plate or modify something, but I'm just curious how the aftermarket kits install.
Pics? Instructions? Details? Tips?
You receive the part(s) illustrated on the website. The panel has a black, textured plastic veneer that blends nicely with the texture of the instrument panel. You may need to trim the panel ever so slightly for a perfect fit. Don't cut the dash until you have the panel to use as a template!
After you've cut the dash & instrument panel and installed your wiring harness, 1) Install the instrument panel, 2) install the textured plate, 3) install the DIN cage and lock the tabs through the dash, 4) install the radio, 5) attach the radio rear support and finish it off.
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You receive the part(s) illustrated on the website. The panel has a black, textured plastic veneer that blends nicely with the texture of the instrument panel. You may need to trim the panel ever so slightly for a perfect fit. Don't cut the dash until you have the panel to use as a template!
After you've cut the dash & instrument panel and installed your wiring harness, 1) Install the instrument panel, 2) install the textured plate, 3) install the DIN cage and lock the tabs through the dash, 4) install the radio, 5) attach the radio rear support and finish it off.
Thank you for the reply bd,
If you ever wanted to pull your instrument panel off with the DIN cage still in place, could you? I mean after pulling your radio out of course.
I took a spare instrument panel yesterday and carefully cut the rectangular opening in it. Then I put the instrument panel into the truck and marked the metal dash. Then pulled the instrument panel back out and cut the metal dash. Then I mounted the DIN cage into the instrument panel and bent the tabs. I'm telling ya, it was gonna look good....... but then I found I couldn't get the instrument panel (with the DIN cage installed) back into place. That 2" of DIN cage mounted into the instrument panel was a deal breaker.
To me, it appears that if you mount it the way you explained, that you'd have to pull the radio (of course) and the DIN cage out if you ever needed to remove the instrument panel for any reason. Is this correct?
I guess maybe I'm over thinking this, but having to back track that much if I simply ever wanted to remove the instrument panel was a little odd to me.
Am I overlooking something here?
Thanks be being patient with me while I overthink this. ;D
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If you ever wanted to pull your instrument panel off with the DIN cage still in place, could you? ...I found I couldn't get the instrument panel (with the DIN cage installed) back into place.... To me, it appears that if you mount it the way you explained, that you'd have to pull... the DIN cage out if you ever needed to remove the instrument panel for any reason. Is this correct?
The answer to your question lies on the first page of this thread:
...if you ever need to remove the dash plate to service the cluster, etc, you have the added steps of unbending the tabs to remove the subchassis....
Actually, it takes only about 5 additional minutes to remove the DIN chassis.
I also have an automatic trans. I've removed the instrument panel w/o removing the DIN chassis, but had to flex the instrument panel excessively and will not do it that way again. The I/P will flex only so far w/o breaking. :P
Thanks be being patient with me while I overthink this. ;D
You're not overthinking, you're planning! :o
All this typing is making me thirsty.... ;D
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All this typing is making me thirsty.... ;D
Hey....I resemble that last remark! ;D
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But, if you ever need to remove the dash plate to service the cluster, etc, you have the added steps of unbending the tabs to remove the subchassis.
This is what I have to do also. With the head unit that is in mine now I do not have the tabs bent to hold the mounting bracket to the bezel. I plan on changing it out again at some point down the road. Mine is cut in very tight and I made a brace to hold the back of it solid. I wish mine had the option of letting the head unit stick out about a 1/4" so that I could install the mounting bracket on the metal part of the dash instead of in the plastic bezel. I can't put the trim piece on mine any other way.
I never would cut a dash in one of our trucks before. I am glad I did now even if it poses some installation headaches.
Firefighter: I'm sure your end result will be quality. Keep us updated on the install process!
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Thanks again guys,
Oh yes bd, I re-read your post and now see where you posted that. My mind had been in a frazzle lately dealing with all this stereo and amp stuff. This is a whole new realm of things I've never dealt with before.
Heck, the radio I had in my truck before was the same one I had in a 1973 4 door boat (slang for BIG car) I had when I graduated High School !! Can you say time for an upgrade? ;D
Anyway, I'm not going to order a mounting plate. Now that I know how this works, my wheels are turning about how I can do this. The wheels may be a bit squeaky yet, but I'll lube them up.
Again, not a show truck, but CCR / Little River Band will never sound so good when I'm done. 8)
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Can't wait to see the finished product! 8) Wish I had that kind of talent! ??? MAyBe sOmedAY...
I'm gonna go have a brew...
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Okay, I hope you haven't cut anything yet because I have the absolute greatest thing for you...
For 1977 you could have from the Silver Book the following quality stereo from Delco:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-G1QuDgLwIcw/TzHwAk75JtI/AAAAAAAAAMg/0uJwZ_3b_70/s400/sc0224994a.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-749ewW8wQvw/TzHwDLvG0hI/AAAAAAAAAMY/uDoelQIzTLA/s640/sc02250a95.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-SVbl3011Xng/TzHv67j7AGI/AAAAAAAAAMA/7-_jNHRS-KU/s640/sc022525e6.jpg)
However, if you're going to cut the dash and/or doors at least make it rock out...
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Okay, I hope you haven't cut anything yet because I have the absolute greatest thing for you...
Oh it's cut alright. ;D
Update and details to follow in the next few days.....
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Ok, I'm going to update this thread to show what I did.
Is there only one way to do what I did? No
Was it totally necessary? No, but it was a challenge
Can I easily remove the instrument panel without removing the DIN cage? Yes
Am I happy I did it this way? Yes
Am I anal about insignificant things like this? Yes ;D
I probably could have used one of those plastic installation face plates you can get since you can see just a small bit of the factory panels contour, but I'm happy. If you can see the imperfections, you're looking too close since it's a work truck. I spent way too much time on this step.
I cut the dash first to see how I could mount the DIN cage rigidly to the metal.
You can kind of see the 3 mounting holes I drilled and tapped in the metal dash.
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff292/urprey1/Chevy%20truck%20rebuild/DSCN3320_3048.jpg)
I mounted 2 metal angle plates rigidly to the DIN cage, spaced back from the front so when the cage was mounted, it was sticking out a bit to match the instrument panel face.
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff292/urprey1/Chevy%20truck%20rebuild/DSCN3321_3049.jpg)
I painted the cage and brackets before I final mounted them so it was all black
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff292/urprey1/Chevy%20truck%20rebuild/DSCN3326_3054.jpg)
This is what the radio looks like installed in the cage. I know, pretty boring. :)
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff292/urprey1/Chevy%20truck%20rebuild/DSCN3328_3056.jpg)
Here is what the instrument panel looks like installed without the radio. From here, I just pull the electrical connector out, plug it into the radio, slide the radio in to lock it in place and snap the trim plate on. Done deal
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff292/urprey1/Chevy%20truck%20rebuild/DSCN3322_3050.jpg)
Finished look
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff292/urprey1/Chevy%20truck%20rebuild/DSCN3340_3068.jpg)
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Nicely done, that shouldn't come loose...
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I like your idea with the angle brackets. I think I may end up doing that myself.
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That really looks good, you should be happy with that.
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It looks like you did a very clean install.
That being said, I really shouldn't have clicked on this post. :'(
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It looks like you did a very clean install.
That being said, I really shouldn't have clicked on this post. :'(
Ha Ha Mr. Jason !!! ;D
I know you've replied to this post a few times. I think most of us have faced this same decision.
You know, if the two post radios weren't so expensive, I most likely would have gone that route. But for less than that money, I bought this head unit, the amp, all the wiring and two extra speakers. Plus now I can play CD's if I want.
I'll be honest though, the two post design will mount right in and all you have to do is wire it. I had quite a bit of time working out all the measurements and details, but I do like the final results. The bonus is if I ever update the head unit any further in the future, it'll be ready.
That being said, can I loan you my cutoff tool? Ha Ha !!!!! ;D