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General Site Info => General Discussion => Topic started by: bladerunner on May 15, 2012, 01:07:50 pm
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So there is a welding class being held nearby this summer. I am an IT guy by trade, but I would love to learn to weld as a hobby and so I can do repairs on my own. The class mainly focuses on stick welding, how to create multi-pass fillets with E6010 and E7018 electrodes and then focuses on the things to get you certified. This is probably beyond my needs, but I enjoy a class environment and I don't know anyone who could teach me.
Class is a bit pricey though. At $500, would I do better do buy equipment and just learn to MIG weld on my own?
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How much could you fix or repair or fabricate a project for $ 500 ?
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How many hours of class and how many hours of actual practice? $500 may not be too much; you have to remember you are going to use a lot of rods, metal and electricity to complete the class. It used to be that you had to have stick and oxy-acetelyne courses before taking mig or tig welding if you are thinking about that also. The stick welding will teach you about metal and properties and welding technique as well as give you lots of practice. You can use that skill to practice with if you buy a mig. Do you plan on any other courses if you take this one? All that said, if you are only wanting to be able to do sheet metal work you may be better off waiting and trying to find a mig or tig welding class that will more likely meet your needs.
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Class is roughly 2 months long, every Tuesday and Wednesday night from 1730 to 2030. Here is the description:
(Welding I - Basic Structural)
For people who have had little or no welding experience, this class teaches students how to correctly and safely use cutting equipment, power tools and welding equipment used in shielded metal arc welding, commonly known as “stick welding”. Students then spend extensive time in the welding shop working hands-on to build and improve their welding skills. Students will learn how to create multi-pass fillets with E6010 and E7018 electrodes in all positions and on a variety of joint types. The certified welding instructor will describe the characteristics of and techniques used to create quality welds. Opportunities to learn oxyacetylene welding are available on request.
(Advanced Structural - Welding II)
This course is designed to teach Welding I students the skills necessary to earn the American Welding Society certification in structural arc welding (please note the exam is not given at UTC). To prepare students for certification test, the class offers 45 hours of hands-on training in the welding shop under the guidance of a certified instructor.
Technically it is two classes. The second class guarantees 45 hours of hands on training. Again $500. What d'ya think? Not sure if they will offer MIG classes in the fall or not.
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Well, if you are adventurous and have the time and money, I'd say go for it. Everything you learn will put you way ahead if you plan to buy a mig welder or take mig classes later. I probably wouldn't take the class that prepares you for certification. I'd save that money for future mig or tig welding classes or equipment. Just my $.02
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I don't know what welding you plan to do, but I for one don't think stick welding experience is necessary to mig weld. I would love to take a class that has a little tig, stick, and mig, but wouldn't take one just on stick welding.
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Take it :) it it only hard if the settings arent right for what your welding...
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I'm all for education but this sounds like a prep course for certifying welders and doesn't sound like it's geared for fabrication and practical welding skills. Stick welding isn't going to help your mig welding technique.
A basic welding course should include: Soldering, Oxy Acetylene, Brazing, MIG welding, stick arc & TIG, welding fundamentals, safety, fabrication & practicals. You may be better off purchasing one of these http://www.millerwelds.com/products/mig/product.php?model=M00234 and a welding how to video
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First off, i think it is a good idea to take classes when learning to weld although you could probably learn on your own. But i personally think it's a better idea to take classes. They are worth it and i don't think $500 is that high anyways for 48 hours of welding.
The second thing is, and alot of people would disagree, is that i think it is a good idea to learn stick first even though your eventual goals might be to mostly be doing mig or tig. Stick can teach you so much about puddle control, arc length, angles of travel etc. etc. lots of important stuff.
3) i'm not sure why they are limiting to just 6010 and 7018 rods? Why not 6011 and 6013, which i think is a good beginner rod, as well?
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So the second part of the class is designed to get you ready for this AWS cert, and I have no interest in getting certified. But correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't you have to know more than stick welding to get this certification? Looks like I need to call the school and get more details on what is covered past the basic welding course.
While looking at this, I noticed a guy selling a 1 year old Miller 140 locally for $475. Might have to look into it.
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As much as schooling has it's place, I think you would be way ahead as far as practical daily use in 2012 if you buy a $500-$600 mig & get some metal scraps & practice. Depending on your schedule, maybe find a weld/fab shop & explain to them you would like to learn, work for free for a couple months...I bet you learn WAY more than the school would teach you.
I have a stick welder with an inch of dust on it, haven't turned it on in over 20 years. I think the school needs to get up to speed. Lorne
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heres my cents on this. in high school we took an industrial maintenance class, this taught us how to mig stick and tig. along with other small mechanic skills, home building stuff, blue prints and some other stuff. to this day 10 years later i havnt touch a stick welder, kind of wish i did but there is no need. i can mig and tig. even working in a welding shop we barley used a stick welder it was 90% mig.. my buddy went to a o.k. tech school. where he learned and got certified "American Welding Society certification in structural arc welding" yeah it looks good on his resume and now owns his own welding business but he regrets the amount of money he paid for it. now he was a farm boy and his buddy up in ny taught him allot of stuff. he said the only thing different is the school gave him a piece of paper that he paid money for. the test did cover stick welding and they get you to butt weld a piece of pipe they then take that pipe and cut your weld out and then bend the piece to a certain degree and if your weld brakes you fail. and back to me, i can mig allot of things and do it right. but put a stick in my hands and its like trying to learn how to walk with three legs. tell you the truth if there's no certificate they give you its not going to help you with a job. i would save that 500 buy a welder or save more up for a real class that will teach you everything not just one type of welding
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I don't know what welding you plan to do, but I for one don't think stick welding experience is necessary to mig weld. I would love to take a class that has a little tig, stick, and mig, but wouldn't take one just on stick welding.
I agree with jaredts, find a class that is better suited for your needs.
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Sounds good guys. Maybe I will spring for a welder and just learn on my own, get some books, etc. Never thought of looking at a shop for experience, but I figured a guy working for free/experience would be a legal liability.
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but its free help. you will prob only mig or tig unless you plan on making a carrier out of it
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Not looking for a career, just looking to learn. I have invested too much schooling as it is doing what I do now to switch. Unless I found I loved it, then who knows.
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Just my .02 cents:
Is the school trying to get more money by having you take the introductory stick or is it a good idea to learn stick before anything else? i think more research needs to be done here.
Mig is easy to learn----alot of people say it's too easy to learn because the beginner welder has not learned the concept of what metal does in its molten state and cannot tell what a cold lap weld or lack of fusion looks like and it can be dangerous. Again, see above.
Welding is something that has to be done right or not at all.
Just my opinion.
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Mig is easy to learn----alot of people say it's too easy to learn because the beginner welder has not learned the concept of what metal does in its molten state and cannot tell what a cold lap weld or lack of fusion looks like and it can be dangerous. Again, see above.
Good question. I am still going to call the school and see what they say. Maybe I can talk to the instructor and tell them what I am looking to get out of the class.
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stick is something good but i wouldn't take a class just on it. when you take a good welding class you will learn stick there and not be waisting money on something you already learned
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On a topic like this you'll get as many opinions as there are people posting, because each has his/her own experience. So, think of it this way: The skills you develop from stick will benefit you, just as the skills you develop from MIG will benefit you. The transition from either method to the other isn't difficult. Both are a process of fusing metal. They share certain aspects, but also differ in certain aspects. Each method has its applications, many of which overlap, some of which are unique to the method. Bear in mind, the physical characteristics of the metal doesn't change based on the method of welding, just the equipment, technique and your personal preferrence. The more methods you learn, the more experience you gain, and the greater your confidence and skill in selecting the appropriate method for the circumstances.
Every method of welding requires skill. And, you gain that skill by welding and destructive testing. Therein, lies the key. To be proficient you need to practice - a lot - and then test your welds! And, a course is the best way to gain the knowledge in the shortest amount of time. It will keep you focused on what you need to know, while providing feedback on proper technique and how to correct errors. 45 hours of welding really isn't all that much. It'll pass quickly. But, it will get you started and fundamentally competent. In addition, a course will provide hands on use of various equipment and information important to selecting your own equipment with the features that will return the greatest benefit for your dollar spent.
Now, for the "but." $500.00 for a welding course seems like a lot. Does it cover tuition and material? Would the instructor be willing to give you some instruction with MIG, during the "certification section" of the course? Do you have less expensive alternatives in your area - like a community college?
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Materials are included except for proper clothing and gloves. This course is through an adult education program. I will update once I call the school for more details.
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A long time ago, I took some welding classes (similar to the description you posted) at the Junior College. I took those classes after I got some hands on experience with a fella that had his own welding shop.
Here's my $0.02:
In the JC classes, we covered mostly stick welding, but also mig and tig. I think if you can get at least some understanding of what a good weld really is, then the class will be worth it. If you can get to where you make a good stick weld, then I think you'll most certainly be able to make good mig and tig welds. I'd think the class would be more than just learning to strike an arc. I'd think it should teach you to see and be able to control the molten metal to make a strong and good looking weld, and more importantly to be comfortable with sparks and molten metal (especially when it's falling on you).
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i cant stick like i said before, well i can but you have to pay attention to how far away your stick is to the metal. with MiG its kind of the same ideal except insted of a stick you have the filler rod, similar to brazing brass. with MiG you just pull the trigger listen and observe whats going on in the first couple seconds this will tell you everything you need to know about the metal your welding on. now if i had to teach welding or relearn it. i would start with MiG tig then stick that way you know the basics of welding with MiG. my buddy once told me you can teach a monkey to MiG, lol i can believe it. but if you want to start out with the hardest out of the three and only learn that one. then its all downhill from there. but you need to get up that hill to start
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Coming from a weldor, find another alternative. Learning stick can help you with the puddle control, but realistically, unless you plan on making a career of doing bridges and steel buildings, looks like a waste in your case.
Buy or borrow a MIG and practice, maybe get someone who knows how, show you and critique your work.
Someone earlier mentioned 6011 and 6013, their very similar to the 6010. 6010 and 7018 are the most common rods found on the job and the technique is different between the 2.
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On a topic like this you'll get as many opinions as there are people posting, because each has his/her own experience. So, think of it this way: The skills you develop from stick will benefit you, just as the skills you develop from MIG will benefit you. The transition from either method to the other isn't difficult. Both are a process of fusing metal. They share certain aspects, but also differ in certain aspects. Each method has its applications, many of which overlap, some of which are unique to the method. Bear in mind, the physical characteristics of the metal doesn't change based on the method of welding, just the equipment, technique and your personal preferrence. The more methods you learn, the more experience you gain, and the greater your confidence and skill in selecting the appropriate method for the circumstances.
Every method of welding requires skill. And, you gain that skill by welding and destructive testing. Therein, lies the key. To be proficient you need to practice - a lot - and then test your welds! And, a course is the best way to gain the knowledge in the shortest amount of time. It will keep you focused on what you need to know, while providing feedback on proper technique and how to correct errors. 45 hours of welding really isn't all that much. It'll pass quickly. But, it will get you started and fundamentally competent. In addition, a course will provide hands on use of various equipment and information important to selecting your own equipment with the features that will return the greatest benefit for your dollar spent.
Now, for the "but." $500.00 for a welding course seems like a lot. Does it cover tuition and material? Would the instructor be willing to give you some instruction with MIG, during the "certification section" of the course? Do you have less expensive alternatives in your area - like a community college?
i think that pretty much sums up my thoughts. And yes, based on my own personal experiences i think learning stick first is the right way to go if you really want to learn to weld properly.
Welding is something that needs to be done right. For example if you were to change a carb or an intake and you didn't tighten it down properly or tune it properly the engine would still run, but it generally wouldn't be dangerous. I think welding is generally dangerous if not done properly----can you imagine if you welded a spring perch to an axle and it broke? Even a mirror bracket----if it fell off while driving. That could pose a hazard to you or anyone else on the road.
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P.S. By the way, the intro stick welding course i took had us welding/laying beads on T joints in the 4 basic positions----flat, horizontal, vertical, and overhead for 3 hrs a day for six weeks using most of the different rods----6010,6011,6013, 7018 and maybe a few others i can't remember for sure. So that's about 90 hrs.
It was $1200 not including safety equipment although you could use the school's. But i decided to buy my own helmet, jacket, gloves etc. which was another $400.
So even though most of the welding i want to do is mig or tig----chassis and car related stuff, i'm very glad i learned stick first.
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I love welding. I don't weld for a living, but I am a journeyman welder. If I had to go back in time and change anything, I would have gotten into welding when I was still in highschool and gotten myself into the trade immediately out of highschool.
I find that lots of people tend to make fun of welders, mostly jokingly, but honestly there is a lot you can learn about all sorts of different processes. And you might think that you just want to learn MIG to work on your project vehicles, after you get a good taste for it you might change your mind and want to dive deeper into it all.
The first welding I ever did was stick welding. Throughout my technical training it was majority stick welding, with some MIG, flux core, TIG and oxy/acet welding thrown into the mix. Lots of similarities between the processes, because they are essentially doing the same job.
I guess I'm a little biased, but I would vote for learning stick welding first and then the other processes may prove to be a lot easier. Some people learn MIG welding first, then when they want to learn stick welding and they find out it's not as easy, they get frustrated, give up and just stick to the MIG machine.
As for price and time, I would go to school for a 4 week period (3 hrs shop and 3 hrs classroom per day). Price isn't exactly a great comparison as the trade schools do get government funding so it definately has an effect on the price of the course. But for a 4 week period it would cost about $900. Naturally we had to supply our own safety gear (boots, glasses, helmet, gloves and leathers/coveralls if you wanted).
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Well I called and have been put on the waiting list for the class. They need so many students in order to justify having the course. So lets hope they get enough so I can go..
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Fees sure have escalated over just a few years. Not so long ago I took the course you're waiting to enroll in, and it cost me ~$35 for material plus my personal gear. :o Nine hours welding plus three hours courseroom every week for one semester, followed by certification testing for those interested. Never regreted it. Working stick, you sure learn to control your heat and puddle. After that, migrating to MIG was a snap. But, I would still like to learn TIG for aluminum and exotics. Never had access to a TIG machine to play with. :( Good luck with your course!