73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Suburbans => Topic started by: 1979C20 on January 07, 2014, 11:50:44 am
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Just wanted to see everyone elses experience when it came to their suburban and spinning tires. Ive got 4" lift and 35s, TBI 350, TH400, and I believe 4.10's. I cannot get this truck to spin a tire even when it raining. Its kind of irritating. Any suggestions?
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Are you wanting them to spin for a reason? Is it dying or just straining? If the engine is stock that is a lot of tire to ask for it to spin.
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Not for any specific reason. Im pretty sure it is a crate motor for summit. It is surprisingly clean, the whole motor is black, it has chrome center bolt valve covers and chrome timing cover. My buddy has a 1990 burb, same truck, same setup and he can spin tires without even trying. Im just wondering if there is something missing or wrong with my truck.
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Does everything check out ok? Good compression, timing, vacuum, etc? Do you know which motor it is?
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how much meat is on your tires?
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Not sure which motor, it was in the truck when I got it from one of my friends and he didnt ask the PO anything about it. I will check those things this week and post my results. Thanks for the suggestions.
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my thoughts are...
how many miles are on it: engine, trans, etc? it all could be very tired.
just because an engine looks fresh doesn't mean anything, it could have been pulled to get resealed and reinstalled.
what is the condition of the oils, is there a sign of age?
are you sure of the gear ratio? have you physically checked it or gone off someones word?
does the trans start in first?
when was the last time it had a tuneup? wires, plugs, filter: fuel and air, cap, rotor, etc.
tons of things can add up to one big cause.
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In addition to the preceding suggestions, check the timing chain stretch and verify that the balancer hasn't spun on its hub, giving you a false indication of ignition timing. Make sure the distributor advance mechanism is working as it should.
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One other thing I had happen to my 86 Blazer was the over-drive stuck on...but you said it has t400? I wasn't aware a t400 was available that late? Live and learn. I would have thought it would be a 700R4? Doesn't mean anything anyway, if the engine is aftermarket no reason the tranny can't be different also.
AS dvdswan asked does moving the gear shift to the first gear position do any good? Maybe your linkage isn't right and it's not hitting first. ???
My wild guess is the tranny is simply old, tired, loose and slipping... I can relate! Change the fluid and filter, install a slight shift improver kit and tighten it up some
I've never owned a auto in a truck...never seen the point myself but all of my cars had autos. They work good for rock crawling, I'll take a clutch for everything else. Way to easy to burn a auto out in mud or water. At least it used to be. YMMV. Besides, I wheeled for full week once with a blown out clutch bearing. Just started it in low range granny whether in 4 ' of water or where ever I happened to be, then drove 100 miles back to St. Louis with no clutch. Can't do that with an automatic.
Reminder, do not get in a hurry and forget to lube throwout bearing or the front bearing retainer housing it rides on in a new clutch install, then immediately drive on the highway for 2 hours, drive to the river and dunk the now really HOT throwout bearing in cold water. The front bearing retainer housing on the tranny shatters when this happens because the bearing will seize on it twisting it off. Turns out I forgot to adjust the pedal also and it caused just enough tension on the bearing to cause it to spin the entire time apparently. Do'OH! Live and learn....
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It is a th400, and It was rebuilt by a shop here in town 6mos ago. I just recently changed the trans filter and fluid and engine oild. As well as plugs, wires, and air cleaner. All engine sensors, distributor parts, and coil are about 1y old. I removed my NSS/REV switch from ky column went I rebuilt it, so my truck will start in any gear, also I know the linkage is adjusted properly because I 4 wheel a lot and it stays in first gear. My tires are 35's with about 70%. The odometer is 160k, documented. Whats the easiest/quickest way to tell if my motor may be factory or aftermarket? Casting number behind the head?
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well, I would verify you gear ratio then. you believe them to be 4.10s, verify them. then you will know.
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I am certain it is the original axle and my rpo sheet says gt5 and g80 which is 4.10 with the gov lock.
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ok, sounds good. did things check out on the engine? silly question, you're not trying to do this in 4HI are you?
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If that is a silly question, then would a silly answer be yes?
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kind of brings up the saying there's no such thing as a stupid question, just a stupid answer.
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Brain farts come in all sizes.... :o 8)
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Well I tried it out last night in 4lo. Kinda surprised that I completely spaced out on that. Thanks for the advice guys
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why are you in 4wd?
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I was out offroading. Front hubs were unlocked. The rears chirped in 4lo, dont do a dang thing in 4hi.
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how do tires chirp in dirt?
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So you're trying to do a burn out in 4wd with 35" tires in a Suburban with a locking rear differential? If that's the case you better think about some lower gears and a more powerful engine :o
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how do tires chirp in dirt?
I have often wondered the same thing about all the movies when in dirt they are screeching like burning out on pavement. :o
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or even the cop shows on tvs. the dashboard cam is recording or the helicopter is and you can hear tires plain as day
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I
how do tires chirp in dirt?
It happens, BTDT. Hard pack mostly. It's still dirt, just as hard as concrete. ;)
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I typically dont attempt it in 4wd. I was in 4lo on my way out and tried to spin them when I got back on asphalt. Im usually in 2hi on the street when I have attempted to burnout.
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OK, clear this up for me...it does at least spins the tires in 2hi or not? spinning them in 4lo can pose problems..namely running out of rpm too soon.
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Pour some oil on the tires. She should spin and smoke good then ;)
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My tires do not lose traction at all in 2HI.
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Buy a new Challenger....with the Hemi... or a new transmission for the burb. It's slipping.
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The trans was rebuilt a year ago, only about 4k miles. And it was gone threw about 3 or 4 months ago when I was having some issues with it. It is not a trans issue.
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are you manually shifting to 1st?
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If you are certain it isn't the tranny, are certain the engine is maintaining at whatever grunt it's got, and the gears are not something like 2.xx or something equally as tall then no other reason why it shouldn't at least chirp the tires. A burb isn't that heavy. Unless you have really wide tires on it. Go out and get a smaller torque converter. Back in the day some of the auto guys used Vega torque converters, I'm sure today there are better options however. They allow your engine to reach a higher RPM before grabbing. Otherwise, I have no more thoughts. If the engine is running OK and still has some compression, the tranny is known good, the gears are not so tall as to allow the truck to do 175 MPH on the highway at 2000rpm inn second gear, and the torque converter isn't slipping there isn't much left in the drivetrain to explain why it won't spin the tires on wet pavement. :o
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The tires are 315/75r16, so 34.8 x 12.5. I have tried in drive or shifting into first manually. I need to put a tach on it to see where my rpms are when im power braking. The only thing I do not know is the stall on the converter. And my truck tops out at like 95mph.
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I wouldn't think a TBI350 had the grunt to spin 35's on a suburban no matter how fresh it is.
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I tend to agree, that's a lot of meat and a heavy truck plus applying the brakes when you want to spin the tires? Buy a line lock and give your rear brakes a break. It seems apparent that your rear brakes are working really well. If you really want to go the power brake path crawl under the truck and back the brakes off. They will have to travel further before contacting the drums and give you a better shot (read that a slight possibility) of being able to overcome the clamping force of the rear brakes if you are very talented with your left foot. Power braking, BTW, is about as rough on a power train as you can be. Stalling the torque converter for that amount of time will create heat in a matter of seconds. MANCHU1-9IN said it right, 35's are tough for any stock engined truck to spin on the street, on a heavy truck like a Burb, fagetaboutit. You want to spin tires on that behemouth? Find a big block, build it for bottom end , use a manual tranny or at the minimum a really tight t-400 and it'll spin those tires until you run out of rpm.
Not trying to be insulting here, but you are sure it's a 350 and not a 305? If you didn't buy the truck new then there's no telling what weirdness prior owners may have perpetrated on the beast. Some people actually thought the 305 gave them better gas mileage. Silly people. ;D
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I tend to agree, that a lot of meat and a heavy truck plus applying the brakes when you want to spin the tires? Buy a line lock and give your rear brakes a break. It seems apparent that your rear brakes are working really well. If you really want to go the power brake path crawl under the truck and back the brakes off. They will have to ravel further before contacting the drums and give you a better shot (read that a slight possibility) of being able to overcome the clamping force of the rear breaks if you are very talented with your left foot. Power braking, BTW, is about as rough on a power train as you can be. Stalling the torque converter for that amount of time will create heat in a matter of seconds. MANCHU1-9IN said it right, 35's are tough for any stock engined truck to spin on the street, on a heavy truck like a Burb, fagetaboutit. You want to spin tires on that behemouth? Find a big block, build it for bottom end , use a manual tranny or at the minimum a really tight t-400 and it'll spin those tires until you run out of rpm.
Not trying to be insulting here, but you are sure it's a 350 and not a 305? If you didn't buy the truck new then there's no telling what weirdness prior owners may have perpetrated on the beast. Some people actually thought the 305 gave them better gas mileage. Silly people. ;D
^^ Well said. I am not sure if the older G80's are made the same as on newer trucks, but if they are then foot brake burnouts will make it go boom real fast.
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Been down this road. I never grenaded a tranny or a driveshaft myself although I could power torque my Step-Mom's Dodge Dart with a 360 for a half a mile. ;D
Run it like ya stole it. Ummm...Let's not go there..... ???
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my grandmother astro van would light them up also. took that thing in fields on some fun nights. lol but then i got wiser once i started replacing tires, now i dont spin unless in racing
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So, the number casted in the side of the block shows 880. Thr number on the passenger side front of the block shows "1M1029" and thats all I can see past the ac compressor. Im attaching a picture of the casting number on the back of the motor where the bell housing attaches. The VIN deciphers as 1:Chevrolet M:GM of Mexico plant. 10: month october 29: day of the month. What I found online for a casting number with 880 in it is: 10243880 99-05 2 or 4 bolt main, Vortec truck, Gen I crate motors and "ZZ4", roller cam, one piece rear seal. So that must mean it is not the original motor?
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Here is the picture of the casting number location. It doesnt actually show a number.
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im going to go out on a limb here and ask what are those numbers or letters to the left of gm? just last week looked at a 72 307 look similar with gm raise like that but there was numbers raised right where im questioning the dust line
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With the picture upside down I see to the left of the GM a 5.7L or that it is in fact a metric motor (post 87). If things remainded the same on 350cu.in engines the numbers you need for an ID are on a boss at the very top of the block and behind the intake manifold. They might be where you found them on a boss near the fuel pump drive opening also. I'm not at all familiar with post 87 engines however.
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Looking at the picture how it sits, to the left of GM it says 5.7L, below gm says Hecho En Mexico. I will see if I can find more numbers back there. Maybe closer to the intake.
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look on the same area but passengers side.
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I will check on the passenger side as well as the middle where the intake is. One thing that really makes me think this is not the original engine is the engine VIN. The VIN states that it is a chevrolet motor, but my truck is GMC.
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Theres nothing on the passenger side. 1st picture.
Found what I believe is the date code driver side of center 2nd pic shows 233 cant find info on it.
Found the casting number passenger side of center 3rd pic. Best angle I could get. Says 10243880 which means what I looked up is correct.
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where is that 1st picture from? the third picture is the passengers side where the engine mounts to the bell housing?
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All 3 of these pictures are on the transmission mounting flange on the back of the block.
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Believe I found what my engine may be on jegs. Looks pretty dang close.
http://www.jegs.com/i/GM-Performance/809/19210007/10002/-1?parentProductId=1231165
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I don't mean to be a spoiler, but I don't think you have what you think you have. IIRC, these trucks, chevy and gmc, came off the same assembly line in Flint and Janesville. so getting a chevy engine in a gmc was not unheard of. I've seen a GMC grille come on a chevy suburban when I worked at a chevy dealer in the late 80s.
if the PO owner told you he put a ZZ4 in the truck did he show you the paperwork? I would chance to say that you have a very tired engine, may be an original or may not be an original, with unknown mileage. plus the transmission with however many miles are on it.
all I'm saying is, if YOU didn't do it, install it, make it, then it has a good chance its not.
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X2 on what dvdswan said. I can't count how many times I have been told a truck has a certain setup just to find out later that t really didn't
Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk
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I have no information from the PO, other than a receipt from the trans rebuild. The information I have found is all based on researching the block, heads, etc.
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Your motor in the pic looks like an 350tbi. Does it have vortec heads? Only 8 bolts holding the intake on if they are. If not then it's nothing like the one in the picture from Jegs. You just have a 350tbi which wouldn't pull a toddler off its high chair!!! Also explains why it wont burn tires.
I'd be double checking the block numbers again. Check behind or underneath the a\c compressor. The block has a number stamped on a small pad. Its small and sometimes hard to see.
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One other thing too. From what I have read and seen. If its a real ZZ4 the engine should have it stamped on it as well.
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The block is the same block that the ZZ4 uses. ZZ4 has aluminum heads, this motor does not. But the one I found on jegs, same heads, engine casting number, etc. I will count the intake bolts in the morning. It is hard to tell from the one picture I included, I will also take more in the morning.
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IIRC the stamped number you seek may not be there if the engine has been overhauled in a previous life. It would be located on the boss face of the head mounting area right in front of the lower edge of the front passenger side head. If the block has ever been decked it would not be there or would be almost invisible at best. It is a stamped number not cast. Casting numbers generally don't mean a whole lot as to how the engine was assembled, just what the block itself was when cast.
It's been a long time since I've had to crawl around in my engine compartment but the m/d/y it was assembled is stamped at rear flange you were looking at and is a bear to see with the nekid eye due to trash, oil, dead bugs, and general decay in the area unless the truck is a show truck. You'll have to look by the firewall to the left (IIRC) of the distributor and the pad is about 2"x 1/2". A wire toothbrush is handy to clean the area up so it can be read. If it weren't so danged cold out today I'd crawl my fat old arse into my engine compartment and get a picture to show you. It's back there, whether it will do any good with the ID I can't say. But it will narrow the year of assembly down into a nutshell which will tell you if it's the original engine or not.
But I'd say that since the cast number and the number in the logs match that you at least have that block; whether or not it is a crate engine is what you want to discover right? It might be a moot point anyway. The engine isn't going to do what you ask of it in it's current condition. So there are a few ways to tackle the issue; throw money and various parts at it and hope they work together to give you the illusion of great things, rebuild what you have with parts that are known to work well together, or buy a different crate engine (at least a good quality short block) and offset a little of the cost by selling this engine. Buying a turnkey engine is the most promising and the most expensive in most cases (at least it used to be), building your own (which means assembling what you feel comfortable with after a pro machine shop is done with the parts you choose) has more risk but also more personal reward even if it lacks the power you had assumed it should have due to poor choices of parts (BTDT; World Product SR heads are junk when the price is "right", ya get what ya pay for), or buying a donor truck or car with a known strong engine and swapping them and then selling the donor again (risky for your reputation if the engine is really junk, but a weak engine in a truck will feel much better in a lighter car so it may not be so bad as long as it doesn't burn oil.
YMMV so good luck!
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Let's say it's a ZZ4 crate motor. (Since the casting numbers are saying that.) ZZ4 has 330 hp and the stock 350 TBI had 190 hp.
I would bet money that the ECM is still stock, the injectors are still stock, and still has the stock fuel pressure. So IMO sounds like the engine isn't tuned. When an engine isn't tuned, it can turn into a turd.
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kind of glanced over the past 4 pages but did you recheck the timing?
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When an engine isn't tuned, it can turn into a turd.
What he said ^^^^, Since I'm not at all familiar with electronic anything I can't comment on things I know nothing about.
did you recheck the timing?
This is really good to check also......^^^
What I do is probably backwards from most folks. I worry about the electrics first and once you know the spark is strong and hitting at the right time THEN move to the normally first addressed items like the A/F, exhaust, etc. You can have the greatest fuel system in the world but if the spark gets snuffed out all the fuel and air won't do anything but go out the exhaust pipe. Just the way I approach things...YMMV
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I will have to check more casting numbers/stamped numbers after work. The timing is sat at 0° with the EST wire unplugged. I just did the Ultimate TBI mod, made the FPR adjustable and have it set at 13-13.5 psi a few days ago. I just replaced the ignition coil, wires, and spark plugs a few weeks ago. I have manifolds into the factory y pipe with 3 inch tubing into a thrush welded muffler.
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The timing is sat at 0° with the EST wire unplugged. I just did the Ultimate TBI mod, made the FPR adjustable and have it set at 13-13.5 psi a few days ago
HUH??
Chuck all that junk, get a MSD Pro-Billet ready to run distributor, a good coil and wires and make some power.
0o timing? I really do not understand computerized engines.
Regardless, it still has advance weights in the distributor or no? If so make certain they work, if not....
If so, get someone close that's very good with distributor curves and have them recurve it for it for you. This requires some electronic gear that most folks can't afford. Or it can be done by trial and error by throwing different combinations of springs and weight weights in it till one works the best. I personally think the professional route is much easier. If the ECU does it then can it be flashed? I've heard some can and some can't. I really don't know myself.
Might have to ditch the gutless TBI as well. And go with an aftermarket Multi-point system. If not then a good MAS as an upgrade?
TBI's are so restricting on what can be done inexpensively. All the mods you have done will probably not amount to much if any real gain until you can convince the ECU they are good things.
Manifolds into a y-pipe into a muffler? No cat? What is the engine using to gauge the fuel mixture? That is the point of the ox-sensor in combination with all the other sensors. That is still present ? The truck will run SOOO much better if you reinstall a cat and ditch the muffler instead...it will sound good too. Just removing the cat will cause everything to go haywire. The system needs to work as a system. If one cog of a system fails the entire team falters. Sorry for all the mixed metaphors. As far as I know these still use the ECU to control the basics like spark advance, fuel timing, mixture, and other things. It was all pretty rudimentary in those dark ages however. Most of the ECU functions had subcontrols (my terminology) built into the vacuum system as switches. The basic programming in the ECU couldn't run a child's toy by itself back then. On my 86 Blazer (still had the carbed engine) I tried removing all that crap and ended up with a boat anchor in the engine compartment. Putting all the generals men back together again is possible but not on my wanting to do list. So I sold it to a buddy with full disclosure of the atrocities I had done. He said it would be a lesson for his teenage son to get all back together. They drove the bucket of rust for another five years before it nearly fell apart under them.
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EST stands for Electronic Spark Timing, which works with the ESC in the distributor, Electronic Spark Control. There are no weights in the distributor, it is all controlled by the computer. I do.have an O2 sensor, it is in the y pipe in the factory location, all it is for is A/F ratio, nothing emissions related. The catalytic converter is not necessary for anything other than emissions. After doing the TBI mod, my acceleration doubled. Then when I replaced the fuel pump, the acceleration doubled again, as it was becoming clogged in the input. I did a side by side comparison with my modified TB compared to a bolt on Holley TB and the results were VERY close. I gained a slight bit more throttle response with the Holley unit, which is why I didnt buy it from my friends dad.
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The stamped number in front of the passenger head read
1M1029
4C34
I cant seem to find any info to decode these, except for the first one. It decodes as....
1:Chevrolet M:GM of Mexico 10: october 29: day of the month.
I believe that is the correct number I needed to decode.
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this site has a lot of info for engine stamping, codes, etc.
http://www.nastyz28.com/sbchevy/sblock.html
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Ive tried there, my stamp is in a different format or something.