73-87chevytrucks.com

73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Electrical => Topic started by: winky on February 12, 2014, 09:01:02 pm

Title: Adding a second battery
Post by: winky on February 12, 2014, 09:01:02 pm
anyone here feel like doing a write up or helping someone do a write up? i plan on having dual batteries since i am going to have 2 winches and also for camping and such. ive been researching some but still dont understand everything completely.
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: bd on February 13, 2014, 10:59:36 am
anyone here feel like doing a write up or helping someone do a write up? i plan on having dual batteries since i am going to have 2 winches and also for camping and such. ive been researching some but still dont understand everything completely.

What do you want to know?  Begin by clearly defining your goals and exactly what you wish to accomplish.  What appliances are you wanting to power, and under what circumstances do you want to power them?

Initially, you should consider a diode isolated, deep-cycle auxiliary battery to power your supplemental camp lighting, appliances, high power sound system and winches.  With that many accessories, plan on upgrading to a 140+ amp alternator, as well.  Match the cable size to the anticipated draw.  Provide more details for specifics.
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: winky on February 13, 2014, 07:03:59 pm
plan on having two winches (hopefully not using them at the same time) going to have led rock lights under my truck and probably around 6 led light bars. planning on lighting up the world when we go camping etc.. cb radio, subs with a 1000w amp and maybe one or two other things im forgetting.
I did a little bit of researching on another big 4x4 forum and they didn't recommend using a deep cell battery because the risk of it exploding etc... ive seen battery kits were you have a switch to chose what battery to use and all but im learning challenged unless its something hands on and so far ive just done reading. i have also seen many people say you need the same batteries (cca etc) or they will kill each other
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: bd on February 13, 2014, 11:28:00 pm
Here are a few thoughts...
A deep-cycle battery will provide up to ~8 times the life of a conventional cranking battery when used in deep-cycle applications.  Each time a battery is discharged and then charged, it recovers to slightly lower capacity than before the prior discharge.  Although the EMF (electromotive force) of the battery (voltage with no load) remains stable for quite some time, the gradual and cumulative loss in capacity eventually manifests as lower voltage.  Deep-cycle batteries are able to recover a greater percentage of their original charge each discharge-charge cycle.

Your plan can be broken down into distinct steps to make it more manageable.  For example: Determine where you are going to physically mount all of your lights.  Determine the configuration and power draw of each light at each location.  Sum the power consumption (watt rating) of all the planned auxiliary lamps for their total power consumption.  Add the lamp power consumption to that of one winch, since you're not likely to use both winches at once.  Similarly, you're not likely to run your sound system at a power level greater than ~200 watts if you want to retain your hearing.  Ignore the CB radio, unless you're running a linear.  If you have a power inverter, add that in.

Total the power consumption of all the accessories that are likely to function at any given time.  Divide the power in watts by 12 volts and you will have the projected current demand placed on your electrical system by accessory load.  Now, add 20 amps for the w/wipers, 20 amps for the heater blower, 15 amps for headlamps/running lamps, 7-10 amps for ignition, ~30 amps for electric radiator fans....  Include any appliance that uses significant power.  Get the idea?  This will help you guesstimate the minimum size of alternator you will need to balance the electrical load during high usage when the engine is running.  Shooting from the cuff, I estimate a 200-amp alternator for your intended build with the listed accessories, allowing for a reasonable, 15% margin.  If you really get carried away, that estimate could go up.  Of course, with proper planning it's unlikely your alternator will output at 85% very often.

Because most of the electrical demand will be "fun" accessories, I would use a deep-cycle lead-acid battery that is diode isolated.  But, a diode isolator consumes ~0.6 volt to forward bias and "turn on" (flow current).  So, the #2 regulator lead from your SI-type alternator needs to be routed around the isolator to connect directly to the primary cranking battery.  Some diode isolators have a dedicated extra terminal for this exact purpose.  Again, because most of your electrical load will be dispensable accessories, meaning that the auxiliary battery might be totally discharged during use, I would specifically avoid a manual override to bypass the isolator for cranking.  This minimizes the potential for both batteries being damaged, because the auxiliary battery is totally discharged resulting in a severe-current surge from the charged primary battery.  If it were a work truck without the plethora of toys, a manual override would be a nice modification.

As you mentioned, there are other approaches.  Each has its merits, advantages and disadvantages.  For your application as you describe it, I think the diode isolator is most suitable.

Edit: semantics.
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: winky on February 15, 2014, 08:52:34 am
AWESOME.  You have no idea how much i appreciate you taking the time to help me out with this. ill try to get everything planned out today. and check back in with what i have.

ok lets see if i do this right,                           |   WIper  - 20amp
                                                                      |
Led Spot lights 20w ea x4 lights = 80w         |  Heater  -  20amps
                                                                       |
Led Light bar = 100w                                     | Headlights  - 15 amps
                                                                       |
Rock Lights 1w ea x 8 lights = 8w                  | Ignition  - 10 amps
                                                                       |
Sound system = 200w                                    |  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~                         
                                                                       |  65 amps
Winch ? 370 amps at 10k lbs pull.                  |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
388 watts minus the winch

388/12 = 32.33 (without winch)  accessory load

So around 100amp draw not including the winch.

Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: VileZambonie on February 15, 2014, 10:10:20 am
The battery is 12.6 Volts and VxA=watts

I had a coworker who used to take his truck camping and wanted a dual battery setup with a deep cycle battery that could be easily removed to utilize as well as to put back in the truck to charge it back up. I installed a deep cycle battery and used a disconnect switch and the cables with the battery hold down were retained by a thumb screw so no tools were required to R&R the battery. This worked perfect for him to power a trolling motor, radio, lights etc. Are you planning on removing the battery to utilize it outside of the truck? If not just wire them up like the factory did.

http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?topic=11045.msg80740#msg80740

Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: bd on February 16, 2014, 04:09:43 pm
Bear in mind that you are only 'estimating' load.  An exact calculation isn't necessary, in part because an exact calculation rarely holds true to life, so in effect, it is still just an estimation... and, in part because you will incorporate a margin of error to allow for fluctuations in load and to ease stress on your alternator.   Understand that at times an exact calculation is useful, it just isn’t necessary for this particular exercise.

Excluding the winch, you guesstimated 388 watts in aftermarket accessory load - round that up to 400 watts.  In addition, you estimated 65 amps maximum load for factory accessories.  So...

400 watts / 12 volts = 33 amps

     and...

33 amps + 65 amps = 98 amps, so ~100 amps of accessory load w/o the winch.

A 140-amp, three-wire alternator should be adequate for your purpose, requiring a 250+ amp diode isolator, such as a Cole Hersee 48161.  But, diode isolators with that high capacity are pricey.

[Sidebar - Specifying a diode isolator:  A two-battery isolator contains two silicon diodes; one diode for each battery connection.  Each diode is rated to carry only one-half of the total current for which the isolator is rated.  So, a 200-amp isolator can pass a maximum of 100 amps to each battery without fusing one or both diodes.  If the charging system is capable of producing greater than one-half of the isolator rating, you run the risk of destroying the isolator.  Fortunately, charging system output is virtually always apportioned between the connected batteries, so you will never see 100% of the charging current flowing through only one diode.  The notable exception to this is if one battery is disconnected or removed from the system.]

Simple relay isolation that mirrors the factory wiring will be significantly lower in cost.  For example, you might use a 225-amp, Cole Hersee 24812, continuous-duty solenoid with a variation of the factory circuit that Vile linked.  Or, if you prefer the idea of a diode isolator in spite of the high cost, you could selectively shunt the diode isolator, connecting the batteries directly together during crank and heavy winching, using that same Cole Hersee solenoid.  There are a lot of possibilities, depending on what you’re after.

Regardless, with a 140-amp alternator, use 4-gauge copper cable and an 8-gauge fusible link for the alternator charge lead.  Use 1-gauge all copper cable without fusible links for battery-to-battery and battery-to-starter connections.  All terminal ends and splices should be securely crimped, soldered with 60/40 rosin core, and double-wall shrink-sealed.

------------------------------------

You posted that your winch will draw ~370 amps under full load.  Unless your crawling difficult courses regularly, winch pulls should be rare - not the typical routine.  Still, when it occurs, a 400-amp draw is a high current burden to sustain from a single battery for very long.  So, for greater flexibility and performance, as mentioned earlier, engage both batteries while winching heavy loads.  Just be sure to connect the winch along with your other add-on accessories to the auxiliary battery, so they are generally isolated from the primary.  If you readily want to be able to disconnect your winch from battery power when it's not in use, install quick-connect plugs that are appropriately sized to the cables.  All auxiliary loads should be fused.

Consider an 800 CCA, deep-cycle, dual purpose, absorbed glass mat (AGM), marine battery for auxiliary (such as an Optima blue top) and an 800 CCA AGM (Optima red top) for primary cranking.  The AGM batteries should yield increased service life over conventional open cell lead-acid batteries.
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: winky on February 16, 2014, 06:33:59 pm
first off i would like to thank both of you, i love to learn but sometimes its hard to find someone that can teach you.

bd, when you said:
"Or, if you prefer the idea of a diode isolator in spite of the high cost, you could selectively shunt the diode isolator, connecting the batteries directly together during crank and heavy winching, using that same Cole Hersee solenoid."

are talking about putting the solenoid inline before the isolator to Basically bypass it for winching situations? just wanting to be sure i understand. I believe i am going to attempt to draw a few diagrams Solenoid only, diode only, then both for winching cranking etc.. (if i understood you correctly) and ill post them on here and y'all can tell me if there right. If so hopefully it'll help the next guy that comes along with these questions.

The main reason i looked into the dual batteries is for winching purposes to begin with. My friend would kill a buttery every 4-8 months and i figured it was due to all the winch use. But after that i decided i wanted to start lighting the world up at night so i also like the isolator idea
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: winky on February 16, 2014, 08:25:14 pm
found this isolator supposedly doesn't have a voltage drop? what do y'all think?

http://sterling-power-usa.com/ProSplit-RZeroVoltDropMarineBatteryIsolator-6.aspx
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: bd on February 18, 2014, 06:29:06 pm
That Sterling Power PSR252 marine isolator looks like a great choice.  Call them to verify, but it looks like they rate their isolators per bank.  You might be able to upgrade to a 240-amp alternator in the near future and continue to use that same isolator....   :o

When I posted, "...you could selectively shunt the diode isolator, connecting the batteries directly together during crank and heavy winching,..." I meant connect the relay, or appropriately rated battery disconnect switch, between the battery posts of the isolator, so that the isolator and relay (or switch) are in parallel.  This would connect the two batteries directly together on demand without disconnecting the alternator from the circuit.  You could control the relay by a lighted switch mounted inside the cab.  You could install a simple warning buzzer as well if you wanted the additional reminder that the batteries are in "Boost Mode."

Every configuration presents pros and cons that force the application of good judgement.  Good judgement comes from knowledge and awareness.  When planning a system, try to envision any hidden consequences of your design.  Do your best to predict any potential weakness in its function.  Try to allow for the odd, unintended contingency.  Within the context of your project, its intended purpose, and the goals for your new system, ask yourself:  “What would occur if ___(something bad)___ happened?” ...and... “What if, while I'm in the jungle, I suddenly realize I also need the system to do this: _______________ ?” ...and... “What if I decide to expand the system?  Where will I tap in?” ...then build accordingly.  For instance, if wire “X” chaffed against the sheet metal, is the circuit fully protected?  This can be a bit more complex when integrating multiple power sources.  That’s why both ends of the factory installed cable leading to the starter from the auxiliary battery has fusible links (referring to the link posted by Vile).  There is limited space to connect cables to a battery.  Do you need to incorporate a junction block off to the side?  Where will you mount it?

--------------------------------------------

Following is a little more information to help you dial in the batteries and installation for your project.


Battery Overview:

Batteries do wear out!  A fully charged lead-acid battery produces 12.6 volts across its terminals.  Conventional lead-acid batteries are designed to cyclically discharge and charge between 65% and 100% state-of-charge without incurring abnormal damage or sacrificing lifespan.  Discharge below 65% state-of-charge (~12.35 volts) is referred to as deep-cycle discharge.  A conventional lead-acid battery will not tolerate repeated deep-cycle discharge without a noticeable loss of lifespan.  When electrical load exceeds the reserve capacity of a battery, or the combined reserve capacity of parallel connected batteries, the battery enters deep-cycle discharge.

Undercharging accounts for nearly 40% of battery failures.  Undercharging results from:  (1) insufficient charging voltage actually reaching the battery, and (2) insufficient charging time for the battery to fully recover following discharge.  The effects of undercharging can be greatly exaggerated by chronic deep-cycle discharge caused by overuse of electrical accessories, and by parasitic draws over long periods of battery non-use that result in sulfation (an impermeable coating that forms on the plates, limiting chemical activity and diminishing capacity).

Although not as common, overcharging and high heat also ruins batteries!  So does freezing the electrolyte by prying loose internal components and cracking cases.  Contrary to popular myth, batteries will not discharge by sitting on a cold concrete floor.  However, when charging out of the vehicle, it's best to set batteries on a thermal insulator (wood block), so the internal temperature of the battery remains uniform, since temperature directly impacts the rate of chemical activity inside the battery.

Abnormal chassis vibrations and impacts, common with off-road trucks, can damage batteries internally by causing conductive materials to break loose, effectively decreasing plate surface area and causing internal shorts that diminish battery capacity.  In addition, exceedingly stiff battery cables, when not properly secured, can wrench battery terminals loose from the case, resulting in electrolyte leakage, terminals separating from the plates and, occasionally, battery explosion from internal arcing.


Maintenance:

Batteries generally fail over a period of time.  Neglect and poor maintenance, including improper maintenance procedures, are the underlying causes of most battery failures.  Batteries require maintenance!  Even “maintenance free batteries” require maintenance.  At the very least, batteries should be kept clean, rinsed with clear water and scrubbed with a plastic-bristle brush.  Never use chemicals to wash a battery case or neutralize acid-salt encrusted battery posts.  Physically remove hold-downs to scrub away encrusted salts.  Chemicals "find" a path into the cells through the vents and around imperfectly sealed posts and pads.  If not completely rinsed away chemicals when moist are as conductive as electrolyte, resulting in parasitic draws.  Disassemble, then scrub and clean battery posts and pads with a steel brush made specifically for that purpose.  Keep all of the cable ends and terminals thoroughly clean of encrusting salts.  Liberally coat battery connections, cable ends, and connecting hardware with viscous, non-conductive white grease to seal out penetration by the electrolyte.  Use of the fibrous acid-neutralizing battery post rings available from the local auto parts store works, but check the rings and their effectiveness often. 

Periodically remove the cell caps and check cell electrolyte level.  Electrolyte levels should be consistent between cells and touching the bottom of the split rings.  Grossly fluctuating fluid levels between cells potentially indicates a developing battery problem.  If the tops of the plates are exposed, you procrastinated too long and probably have some battery damage.  You'll need to add water, slow charge, and then test the battery.  Add only distilled water when necessary to raise cell fluid levels.  Never add supplemental electrolyte, battery rejuvenator, or any other chemical to a battery.  Check battery mounting and ensure that it holds the battery secure and level.


Choosing the Right Battery:

Select a battery that properly fits the tray, or modify the tray, so the battery sits level and can be stably and tightly secured.  Ensure that the terminals are a safe distance from metal hold-downs, brackets and any surrounding metal. 

Select a battery with sufficient cranking capacity for the application.  The CCA (cold cranking amps) rating is the maximum current a fully charged battery can deliver at 0° F over a period of 30 seconds without individual cell voltage dropping below 1.2 volts. CCA describes a battery’s ability to crank.

Make sure the battery can adequately supply the typical engine-OFF electrical load of the vehicle.  Reserve capacity is the time in minutes that a fully charged battery can maintain a 25-amp load without individual cell voltage dropping below 1.75 volts.  Reserve capacity describes a battery’s ability to supply all electrical loads while acting as the primary power source.  The greater the reserve capacity of a battery, the longer it will take to discharge.  When running multiple “parallel connected” batteries, match the reserve capacity ratings to avoid chronic differential discharge between batteries.

CCA and reserve capacity are distinctly different ratings.  CCA is important for determining the amount of load you can place on a battery.  Reserve capacity gives you an idea of how long the battery will support its load.


Cabling:

I touched on battery cable gauges in a previous post.  Onto battery ground details and winch connections.  Ground the auxiliary battery directly to the primary battery (negative to negative) then ground the primary battery to the engine.  Routing the ground in this fashion, to a common point, will eliminate potential voltage loops and help avoid electrolysis.  It also lessens the number of large and weighty cables dangling off the motor - one less thing in your way while working and showing off.   :)

Run the winch power leads directly to your auxiliary battery.  Use the winch manufacturer's recommendation for circuit protection.  Run all other accessory power off of a jumpered 3/8" (10 mm) junction block with cover mounted adjacent to the auxiliary battery.  If the block is more than two feet away, protect the jumper with a fuse link at the battery connection.  Remember, fusible wire is always four wire gauges smaller than the wire it protects.  So, a 4-gauge jumper will use a six-inch length of 8-gauge link.

Way too many words for such a simple thing.   :'(
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: winky on February 18, 2014, 07:12:00 pm
i can tell that you are well educated. Thanks again for the help if i get to the point were i am bothering you let me know. If someone is willing to give me advice or knowledge on a subject i always try to take from it and educate myself more, with that being said i like to know why you do this or why you do that. understanding how things works allows me to be able to prevent/fix problems.
Please understand i am not second guessing your methods. i just don't want to be the guy that cuts the good end off a ham every year before i cook it because that's what my grandmother and my mother always did, just to find out 10 years later the only reason my grandmother did it was because she didn't have a pan big enough for the entire ham. :/

You stated before to use copper cable - What is the reasoning for this? better conduction?

what is electrolysis?

and what is voltage loops?

I always assumed that the more grounds the better.
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: bd on February 18, 2014, 08:48:31 pm
LOL!  I'm more likely to bore you with answers than you are to tire me with questions.  But, let's not make it a contest!  The worst you could do is catch me in an assumption that I have relied on for years without realizing it until you asked (throwing away the best end of the ham)!  I've tried to avoid doing that all my life, too.  But, some may persist and others leak in due to age!  Always wanting to know "the why" resulted in a broad education, though.  Just nothing that ever made me any money.   ;D   I've discovered there are a lot of people who have fixed opinions about "the why" that won't withstand even mild examination. 

Here I go again!  My posts have been so long-winded I envisioned you with a bruised forehead from dozing off.  I've cracked my noggin a few times proofing my writing.   ::)

Down to business...

Several variations of battery cable are used.  GM used copper-clad aluminum for many years into the build of our trucks, because of lower cost and to decrease overall weight.  Eventually, the aluminum cable builds resistance.  They are very difficult to repair properly, hence they are disposable.  The cable of choice for best service life, consistent conductivity, and cost is all-copper, stranded cable, which is probably the most common battery cable you will find available.  But, since everything is imported nowadays, it's better to know what you are buying.  Purchase from a reputable dealer.  For harsh service environments, you can upgrade to welding cable that has a much higher strand count for greater flexibility, and that is insulated with neoprene rubber.  I make all of my battery jumper cables out of 00 welding cable ...for a premium investment.  Except for the few that have walked, they have lasted 40 years in commercial and private service.

Electrolysis results from two primary causes, chemical imbalances in the cooling system and ground paths through the cooling system.  It is more common and damaging when the cooling system incorporates aluminum components.  This link should explain it suitably well:  Electrolysis 101 (http://www.sancarlosradiator.com/VoltageDrop/education.htm).

If high-current ground connections are separated by a resistance (i.e., poor connections) a voltage drop can exist between them.  In the case of a 5,000 watt winch drawing ~400 amps, approximately equally from two batteries (200 amps per battery), per Ohm's Law, the winch has an effective resistance of ~32 milliohms.  A resistance of only ~15 milliohms (too small to accurately measure without lab equipment) will result in a 3-volt drop between the separate ground connections.  If some of that ground path occurs through the coolant - electrolysis.  In addition, the battery below the voltage drop may actually be flowing only about 180 amps and the auxiliary battery might be supplying 220 amps.  Medium-current grounds are more forgiving, but generally more consistent with greater impact in the long run.
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: 87V20Kansan on February 19, 2014, 11:09:16 am
Great analogy with the ham Winky! That kind of attitude will eventually lead you learning more skills than you ever dreamed of being able to learn. Eventually you will know how to do so many different things that you will be selective about who you reveal certain skills to. EVERYBODY always has something they need fixed for nothing. Ask me how I know...... ::) I get the questions all of the time.

You are smart to pay attention to BD here. I have been a Journeyman Wireman for 15 years now and used to be heavily involved in the automotive wiring/car audio market before that. He has given you a metric crapton of knowledge that will last you a lifetime.
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: winky on February 19, 2014, 07:33:32 pm
thankyou and the ham was the best example i could come up with haha. i actually enjoy learning so no dosing off here. ive learned that it is much easier to Learn from people that have been hands on with something then reading from a book.
this is off topic but i would LOVE to build a crawler next, Ive built 3 rice burners, a few go carts, etc and i learn from every project i do. built my first 5.7 when i was 14. my dad is a big chevy guy for the earlier year trucks so i guess that's where my drive comes from. Since i was 14 i always dreamed of having a custom shop building older trucks, and cars. It gave me ambition that no one else my age had and most my age still don't have. I am Very thankful that God blessed me with my mindset :) 21 years old with one eye ;)  I have 3 ASE certifications, have passed welding exams (told i wouldn't be able to weld with one eye),ive built all kinds of engines and now i work in a body shop and can do body work as well as spray a car pretty decent. most people that come in the shop are impressed with my abilities but i always feel like i am behind in the learning curve and am fighting to catch up.

"EVERYBODY always has something they need fixed for nothing"
my only downfall so far lol. almost ever weekend i have something im fixing for someone. an old friend from school hit a deer, i fixed that last weekend, next weekend im replacing cv axles in my mother n laws car the week after that i am gonna be doing brake work on an 06 chevy 1500. i cant complain though i enjoy helping people and hopefully they will return the favor one day plus it helps keep your skills sharp.

thanks for everyone's reply hopefully i can get some change up and get this project started soon! ive got a pretty good starting point right now thanks to all the helpful people here. anyways theres my book for the night lol. sorry about my grammar etc my boy is always climbing on me so its hard sometimes to check so hopefully my post aren't too hard to read .
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: bake74 on February 20, 2014, 07:47:46 am
Great analogy with the ham Winky! That kind of attitude will eventually lead you learning more skills than you ever dreamed of being able to learn.

     I second this, ok the ham part was a great analogy, but I really want to second the attitude part, if more people were to think this way these days, I would have my flying cars by now.  LOL. 
     You know next year is the 30th anniversary of back to the future.
     WHERE IS MY MR FUSION 10,000 ?
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: pholliday1 on February 20, 2014, 09:32:11 am
Love posts like this!
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: Greybeard on February 27, 2014, 02:33:24 pm
Hey Wink, I understand the name now at least  ;)
I was born only able to see clearly out of one eye myself, I was born severely crosseyed too and had two surgeries to fix that, they tried but they won no cigars. Much better than it was though.
 As a result I understand the feeling of always trying to catch up no matter how much we learn.

Bake, google flying cars....you might be surprised at what you find!  ;)  All you need is money at this point.

I was reading this entire thing thinking ...BD certainly know his stuff...when is he going to mention cables? I was rootin for the cables to be mentioned...Welding cables that is. The only way to fly!

One thing I don't think BD covered, and it may not be important which is why he didn't cover it; voltage drop/resisance along lengths of cable. Say for instance you decided to mount one of the batteries in the bed or under the back end of the truck, how many wire sizes would be required to account for the extra resistance per foot of wire. Maybe that's getting too nit-picky. I know enough about electricity to burn my truck down pretty fast but I've heard that using wire that is too big is nearly as bad as using it too small? IDK? But inquiring minds would like to know.

BTW-BD excellent writeup! Would you do my last two college papers please? I spend more time proofing those than when I write for fun, I just don't do much proofing ...like for here. :-[ 
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: winky on February 27, 2014, 10:05:31 pm
Haha yeah my welding instructor couldn't remember my name the first week we were in class. He wanted to show someone how i was welding so he said "hey winky come over here" some how it ended up sticking lol. Ive read about welding cables i thought it was on these forums? (Ive done a decent amount of reading so im not sure)
I already knew about voltage drop due to resistance caused by the length of wire but im glad you mentioned it. Im hoping this post will allow other people who aren't very experienced with wiring get a decent amount of information without having to hop around pages. I use to have a chart on amps, wire size, length with voltage drop etc.. Im sure a google search would turn up some charts if someone was interested in looking at them.
      On the wire size Ive always gone bigger to be safe. I haven't ever noticed a voltage drop but ive never broke out my fluke meter to check either. I would assume (we know what happens when we assume... :D )that a wire being too big would depend on if its a signal wire or a power supply? BUT I would also like to know as well. I might do a search tomorrow if the one and only BD hasn't replied :D

Like Ive said before, I really appreciate everyone's input it feels good to know that you have a community of knowledgeable people that are willing to take time and help out.
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: bd on February 28, 2014, 02:16:15 am
Over-specifying electrical cable for a given application doesn't hurt - it just doesn't benefit.  Because of the high cost of good quality cable, the benefit-to-cost ratio tanks if you specify much beyond the actual need.  Then there is the fact of introducing unnecessary weight, cable stiffness, and bulk - none of which benefit the end result.

The standard approach to wire selection is to decide on the amount of voltage loss that is acceptable over the length of the cable, and then use the appropriate formula and table (or quick reference chart) to determine suitable cable diameter to carry the anticipated current load.  However, using commonly available charts is risky if and when the chart doesn’t clearly state the percent voltage loss upon which it is calculated.  An engineered voltage loss of <2.5% is generally ideal, balancing cost and performance.  If you're able to secure a 2.5% quick chart, laminate it for future reference.

Virtually all electrical cables have a unique resistance per linear foot of length.  Hence, for any given cable material and cross-section, the longer the wire run, the greater the inherent resistance of the cable.  Because of the relationship between voltage, current and resistance, the greater the current that is demanded by an electrical appliance or load, the more significant the inherent resistance of the wiring becomes with regard to that demand. 

Current varies directly with voltage, but inversely with resistance.  That is to say, as voltage increases, current increases; as resistance increases, current decreases.  Ideally, 100% of the supply voltage should be available to power the load.  By design, the resistance of any electrical appliance is the dominant resistance in its circuit.  But, as cable resistance increases, the ratio of cable resistance to appliance resistance shifts, and more voltage is consumed by the wiring, rendering less voltage and less current to power the load.  To manage acceptable voltage loss across a wire run, the cross-section (gauge) of the wire must be chosen with both the maximum anticipated current load and the total wire length in mind.  The further a cable runs, the greater its required cross-section to minimize voltage lost to the cable. 

A secondary problem that sometimes plagues electrical systems is the heat generated off the wiring when wires are of insufficient gauge to safely power the load.  When a wire becomes hot, it's because the wire is consuming voltage and dissipating the energy as heat.  The heat dissipated by a wire in watts is equal to the current in amperes flowing through the wire, times the voltage being burned by the wire.  A "hot" wire is a wire overburdened by current flow (insufficient gauge).  For example, a 250-amp starter current flowing through a battery cable presenting a 2.5% voltage loss (0.32-volt drop) is dissipating 80 watts of heat across the length of the cable.  Decreasing the cable size to create a voltage loss of 15% (1.9-volts drop) increases heat dissipation to ~473 watts!  At some point, the insulation will melt!

Additionally, for each linear foot of distance a cable must run between the power source and its load, the actual current path is roughly double, because of the added length of the return or ground path.  In cases where the ground path is actually wire, incorporation of the ground wire length is important to overall cable selection.  In the usual case of a steel frame, although steel presents greater electrical resistance than copper or aluminum, the cross-section of the frame in any given application is generally adequate not to be of significant concern beyond corrosion-free connections.

With regard to momentary high-current circuits, such as engine crank circuits, it’s common industry practice to specify cable gauge based on between 5% to as much as 15% voltage loss during periods of maximum current transfer (i.e., while cranking).  Meaning, a cumulative loss of as much as 0.9 volt across the combined length of starter cabling (positive cable plus ground cable) is not unheard of while cranking.  In fact, diagnostic service criteria specifies a maximum of 0.5 volt loss across each starter cable while cranking, or ~4% voltage loss per cable, for ~8% combined total loss. 

----------------------------------------

I consider greater than ~8% voltage loss across high-current cabling to be excessive.  But then I generally spec battery cables and wiring for no more than ~2.5% voltage loss, based on 115% current flow (I incorporate a 15% margin).  For a starter that draws 240 amps on a hot day with a combined cable length of about 7 feet, that equates to 2-gauge copper cable.  Roughly doubling the combined run from the bed (~16 feet total), equates to 3/0-gauge copper cable.  Calculations are based on the formula:

cmilmin=40(Cmaxd)

...where cmilmin is the minimum acceptable cross-sectional area of the wire in circular mils (one circular mil is equivalent to the cross-sectional area of a cylindrical wire possessing a diameter of 0.001 inch or 1 mil), 40 is a constant with the units ohm-cmil per volt-foot, Cmax is the actual or anticipated maximum current draw in amperes, and d is the total cumulative length of wire run in feet, including the return run.  The calculated cross-sectional area is then looked up in a table relating wire cross-sectional area in cmils to AWG wire gauge.

The quick reference chart is easier!
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: Greybeard on February 28, 2014, 03:48:51 pm
OK, Let's see the electrical engineering degree...I know you have one...cumon lets see it, bragging is allowed .  ;D

Good stuff! Bringing up the resistance differential between a hot 98* and a cold 0* degree day was a great point.

I brought up the length of cable issue because knew a lot of fellas put the auxiliary battery in the back near the second winch mount area to help alleviate this voltage drop problem, then they increased the wire size to accommodate doubling the battery draw down between the primary and secondary battery when under a full load. It has always been way over my head, and I know enough to ask some decent, although maybe unnecessary, questions although I don't pretend to understand all of it. I did learn a great deal about wiring in the military (35 years ago) when I was in A/C and ventilation repair school. The units we learned about ran on 660 and above 3-phase voltage. I have mostly forgotten all of it now until something like this discussion reminds me of a few points.

One unnecessary question that might be irrelevant as per your cost/versus benefit ratio... it has to do with wire strands in the cable. Besides welding cable being much easier to work with than than standard say triplex wire of the same gauge does the increased number of wire strands reduce resistance? This is another one of those urban mysteries floating around at the flat edge of my memory. I seem to recall something about this however, more stands equal more actual wire density inside the insulation and therefor more actual wire per gauge size due to the reduced airspace between wire strands and also more surface contact area between strands. Of course I'm not using the right terminology but....Or is this getting way to technical for use in a truck with a winch? LOL 
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: winky on February 28, 2014, 08:46:08 pm
Holy crap. lol. yup. One well educated guy there.
(pssst... GreyBeard... He is a professor at Harvard)
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: Greybeard on February 28, 2014, 11:14:54 pm
Hahahahahaha! That explains it then! LOL...  8)
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: bd on March 02, 2014, 01:11:31 pm
LOL - We’ve long passed the point of relevance to adding a battery or wiring a winch!  But, since inquiring minds want to know...   ;D

...does [an] increased number of wire strands reduce resistance?  ...I seem to recall...more strands equal more actual wire density inside the insulation and therefore more actual wire per gauge size due to the reduced airspace between wire strands and also more surface contact area between strands....

Not true!  With regard to your military training, you may be confusing some of the complex electromagnetic effects that occur in alternating current (AC) circuits with the simple resistance effects that exist in direct current (DC) circuits.

Within the scope of automotive wiring:

This blackboard is closed!   :-X

If you wish to dig into the subtleties of wire any further, purchase a good reference text on practical wiring or a copy of the National Electrical Code and study to your heart’s content.  Most of the answers you seek should be contained, therein.
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: Greybeard on March 02, 2014, 05:52:08 pm
Well BD thanks for being a good sport ! Excellent (albeit, as you said, pointless to the issue) information. Although it can come in handy for figuring out other areas that might pose issues during a build.

There is one area I would like to reference Winky and that is what BD alluded to; connections. 

At our work we had a good supply of the heavy adhesive lined shrink tubing in multiple sizes bought from Napa. We had a small wire brush to clean as much of the inside of the connector as possible then pinched the eye between some wood in a vise (wood is not a good heat sink). Heat the eye till a good solder of your choice (60/40 is what we used but it may not have been the best choice) melts by touching the inside of the cup with it and fills the cup about 3/4 full then feather the heat and start slowly inserting the wire as the heat builds in it. (the wire should be preheated and fluxed BTW and still hot) Do this slow because if it's pushed in faster than it can take in the extra solder it will blow out of the cup into your face. Not fun, ask me how I know...never mind! LOL.  The shrink can be put on after since the eye will likely be smaller than the ID of the shrink. They sell red and black (maybe more colors IDK) shrink, an easy way to keep track of cables. One thing we didn't do was crimp first. That's your choice.

There might be easier and safer ways to do this but this is the way I was taught. A cable made like this will last forever as long as the insulation does not get perforated. However, forever, seeing as that's a really long time, is relative.

This is the way I make my battery cables on both ends. I used 2/0 cable (because we had a LOT of 300+ amp worn out welding cables at work) with 2/0 post style battery ends and eyes.
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: bd on March 02, 2014, 07:20:34 pm
I know... I know...

I was taught to assemble battery cables the same way you were, and it worked most of the time.  I agree, 60/40 tin/lead rosin flux solder is a good choice.  Silver solder also works, but requires more heat.

This is what I learned through observation and experience:  (a) Preheating large-gauge copper cable with a torch (which is pretty much necessary to supply adequate heat, since the cable itself acts like a sink) causes the copper to anneal and oxidize.  Annealing weakens the metal; oxidation retards solder penetration and adhesion in spite of the flux.  (b) If you don't assemble a lot of cables to maintain decent technique, you run the risk of a cold solder joint because you're stabbing a too cool cable into a pool of molten metal, quenching the pool before the solder wicks up between the strands, resulting in a poor connection.  (c) Having repaired & wired many commercial vehicles, I observed high draw and connection problems that actually melted solder, allowing cables to separate from soldered only terminals.  Not good when its the starter end of a four battery set!   :o

I discovered that in order to lessen the potential for subsequent service problems, when I securely crimped terminal ends to cables to create a strong mechanical connection before soldering, the crimp would support and retain the cable secure in its terminal, so that the solder merely had to penetrate and seal the electrical connection from unwanted penetration by air, moisture and contaminants, to maintain good electrical conduction over the life of the cable.  Heating the outside of a crimped terminal shields the copper strands from direct flame while quickly and evenly transferring heat to the cable.  When the terminal and cable are sufficiently heated, flux core solder melts and wicks into the connection, filling the voids and sealing it.  When connecting large parts together, it's best not to rely on solder alone to retain those parts, especially if they might be subjected to subsequent high heat cycles. 

But, ultimately, as you posted, whether you crimp, crimp and solder, or just solder is individual choice.  All we can do is provide the data.

-------------------------------

Can't say that I ever had solder tears on my face, that must of hurt!   ???
Title: Re: Adding a second battery
Post by: Greybeard on March 05, 2014, 01:45:20 am
Hey BD, Sorry it took so long for me to reply, I have two more weeks till I graduate so homework is fierce right now. But I got my project in 30 seconds before it's deadline tonight so I'm happy.

I agree and see your point. I want to point out though that by pre-tinning the cable the solder only has to remelt only a slight amount to adhere. I can see this plain type of joint being pulled apart under a high heat situation though so crimping is a good idea. On our semis we always had the battery ends (the cold ends) clamped near the batteries. The starter ends where left to chance. We did not use our trucks OTR however because we were a construction company in a small town in Iowa. So maintenance was an ongoing thing for one reason or another. Old early 80's vintage trucks didn't help much.

The one concept to remember is to put solder into the cup and then let the hot solder sort of draw the cable in (it does require pushing but it's balanced) and don't actually put too much heat to the cable, let the solder do the majority of the heating. I always thought of this as an art and prior to learning the art, a few burns were acquired.  :-\