73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Engine/Drivetrain => Topic started by: Chadwick717 on May 22, 2014, 08:11:46 am
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I know this has probably been rehashed over and over again, and I read a few threads, so I have an idea, but when I bought the truck, the po had replaced the starter and it eventually stopped working, so I replaced it. I also replaced the battery when I got the truck. Now, this starter will crank the engine right up when it's cold, but when the truck has been running for a while, it has a hard time turning the engine over. I will wait a little bit and eventually it will crank.
I'm assuming that I got a bad starter and that the solenoid gets heat soaked? Is this correct? My only concern is that this is the third or fourth re manufactured starter on the truck. Could this be a symptom of something else? I've read a little bit about initial timing being a problem, but I don't really understand it. The truck starts and runs fine when it starts.
Oh it's a 79 k10 with a 350. Thanks as always you guys are great.
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The first starter I had on it would start without dragging, but it would occasionally just click like when the battery was dead and not turn the engine over at all. I would wait a bit and usually it would start right up.
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I guess I should clarify. I am going to check all the wiring connections when I get home this week. The battery is new so it tests good.
After that should my next step be to check the timing? That's the only part that worries me because I haven't done that yet . Still learning and trying to do everything myself.
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Change the starter cables.
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Ok. That sounds like a good place to start.
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Change the starter cables.
What rich said. also a starter heat shield doesn't hurt. I was having the same issues as you I took Richs advice and my third starter is doing great.
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Some company sells a kit to relocate the solenoid up on the fender like in a older Ford
Away from the heat
And the reman starters are garbage.
They were ok a few years ago when they rebuilt them in the US Now that all the reman stuff is done in Mexico and china its all garbage
Get one from a local business that rebuilds them
That's the only way I've found to get a decent one
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One of my mechanic friends said there used to be a business around here that rebuilds them, I'll have to see if they are still around. Hoping to have some time to replace the cables this weekend, if it would stop raining.
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Call a shop that works on 18 wheelers
They usually know where the local rebuilder is
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timing could also be a problem, but more than likely what rich said
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I use a starter from a 94 4.3 its smaller than the big clunky starters from the 70s and 80s bolts right up
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
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Ok quick update. Thanks for all the help. Went and got a new remanufactures starter and new cables, got to put them in today. Also wrapped the starter in a heat shield blanket. No problems so far, so we shall see.
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Ok. Another update. Today is the first day after new starter and cable install that I drove around for a while and tried to start it. It started the first time, but then the second I just got the clicking noise until I let it cool down about 10 minutes, then it started right up. I guess I am in need of more suggestions.
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So for more info, I only replaced the wire going from the battery to the starter. I have just been bolting the wires on how they were on the first starter I had when I got it. Here is a picture of the wires attached to the solenoid. Maybe I've got them hooked up wrong? I'm guessing the one is a ground, but it goes back into a wiring sheathe with a bunch of other wires, could I take that one off and replace it with a bigger one straight to the frame where the battery is grounded?
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(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/09/8y8uveta.jpg)
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There are no ground wires that connect to the starter solenoid.
Referring to your image: the 3/8" stud is home to the battery positive cable and two 6-inch long, 16-gauge fusible links that feed power through 12-gauge red wires to the cab and charging system; the single 14-gauge purple wire that's all taped up and connected to the #10 stud on the right is the circuit that energizes the solenoid to engage the starter. Without making voltage drop tests to verify, you probably have low voltage reaching the starter due to an imperfect ground or low voltage to the solenoid from the ignition switch and neutral safety switch via the taped 'purple' wire.
Since you've already replaced the battery positive cable, go ahead and replace the battery-to-engine ground cab as well, using 2-gauge copper cable. Be sure to thoroughly clean the cable attachment point to the engine. If the ground cable attaches to the alternator bracket rather than directly to the engine block, make sure the bracket connection to the block is also clean and tight.
Low voltage to the solenoid generally results from an accumulation of poor connections between the 3/8" solenoid stud and the firewall bulkhead connector, or problems with the ignition switch or neutral safety switch. If problems persist after servicing the ground, you'll need to rebuild the feed wires that run between the 3/8" starter stud and the bulkhead connector.
If you have a voltmeter, you can run voltage drop tests and isolate the source of any low voltage before making further repairs to help focus your repair and minimize the repair cost.
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Ok thanks for the help bd. I'll replace my ground. One small thing though, My ground from the battery goes to the frame, not the engine. Is this ok? Every time it won't start I wait ten minutes or so and it starts right up.
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No It's not OK. You need to attach it to the engine. You should also have a ground cable from the engine to the body, body to frame etc
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I have a ground cable from the engine to the body, but I guess I'll have to change the ground from the battery to frame, to from the battery to the engine. Is there a good place to attach the battery to engine ground on the motor? Thanks for all the help.
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There are four things that need to be connected -- battery ground, engine, frame, and cab -- so it takes three wires. The heaviest load is from the starter, on the engine, so the battery ground must be connected directly to the engine. The frame and cab are lighter loads and use smaller wire to connect to the engine. This is likely your problem if your heavy ground cable is connected to the frame, and then you have the normal small connection from the frame to the engine. All that starter current has to go through that small wire, and sometimes the magic works and sometimes it doesn't.
From the battery to the engine. Follow the wire from the lower left of the pic to the top of the alternator bracket.
(http://users.rcn.com/weyand/smalls/imag0430small.jpg)
From the engine to the cab.
(http://users.rcn.com/weyand/smalls/imag0451small.jpg)
From the engine to the frame.
(http://users.rcn.com/weyand/smalls/imag0449small.jpg)
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You have headers ?
Or stock manifolds ?
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i have three ground on each of my trucks (between the engine and battery). one battery to frame, one battery to alt bracket and the last one back of passengers head to firewall. never have i seen one from the power steering pump to the frame BUT it wont hurt to have extra grounds.
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Interesting. It looks original. I certainly didn't add it. I also have one from the battery ground to the frame, on the radiator cross member near the battery. And you're right. Should be no need for one of those two.
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I have stock manifolds.
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So I could leave the battery to frame ground and just add a battery to block?
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Yes, more doesn't hurt anything. But you need a high-current-capable connection from the battery ground to the block or alternator bracket. It should be just as heavy as the positive starter cable, and clamp directly to the battery.
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To reiterate what's been stated in other threads - the radiator support should have a ~12-gauge dedicated ground, the right frame rail should have a ~12-gauge dedicated ground, the cab-to-engine should have a ~12-gauge dedicated ground, and the engine block should have the 2-gauge battery primary ground. Some vehicles had a redundant engine-to-left frame rail ground. (10-gauge wire or 5/16" braided strap can substitute for some of the '12-gauge' grounds).
Why so many ground connections? Because frame members are bolted together and can loosen with use, degrading the ground pathways. By connecting the various major frame members with ground jumpers, everything functions over the long run.
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And the cab, engine and frame rails need to be separately grounded to the battery or each other because the rubber engine mounts and rubber cab mounts are insulating.
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Ok..I think I got it. Where again on my engine block is a good place to ground from the battery, besides the alternator bracket
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Any unused bolthole on the front of the right (passenger side) cylinder head.
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Ok thanks, when I get home from work this week I'll let you all know how it goes.
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Rich, is your engine to firewall ground coming off of your valve cover bolt? I'm not sure that is a great place as it can't be torqued that tight to begin with and they come loose over time. Why not back of the head like stock?
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Rich, is your engine to firewall ground coming off of your valve cover bolt? I'm not sure that is a great place as it can't be torqued that tight to begin with and they come loose over time. Why not back of the head like stock?
Because 1) it works fine so far and 2) I can't reach it from the side and haven't been over the top to change it yet.
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Ok quick update for you guys. Got home from work yesterday and I finally got a chance to work on the truck.
I got a new ground cable and hooked it up from the battery to the alternator bracket.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/14/hy8anasy.jpg)
My truck already had a block to cab ground
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/14/setynera.jpg)
But.. I couldn't find a block to frame ground so I fashioned one out of some 10 gauge wire and hooked it up.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/14/e2una3e9.jpg)
I drove it several times today and the last time for an hour and a half and when I shut it down it started up just fine every time. No problems! Looks like that fixed the problem!! Thanks for the help guys! Any suggestions or criticisms of my wiring are gladly accepted.
Now on to fixing the broken air conditioner. Summers here!
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Excellent! Glad you got it sorted. As for quality of the wiring, you proved that when it started!
A note for people searching and hitting this thread in the future. We get about 2-3 bad sets of battery cables (engine won't turn over/start!) and poor ground connections (my dash lights/tail lights/fuel gauge/turn signals are acting goofy/don't work!) here every month. Start with that. If the vehicle won't turn over, don't buy a new starter or a new battery: if the cables are over ten years old, change them first. If something electrical fails or is acting goofy, check that the engine, cab, and frame rails are all grounded to each other and the battery, and that all of the grounds are clean and tight.
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I would suggest you use the back of the cylinder head for your auxiliary ground vs near the exhaust manifold.
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I think that is going to the back of the cylinder head, VZ. That's his blue valve cover in the pic....
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I think that is going to the back of the cylinder head, VZ. That's his blue valve cover in the pic....
Yes I can see that but I am referring to his last pic
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I think that is going to the back of the cylinder head, VZ. That's his blue valve cover in the pic....
Yes I can see that but I am referring to his last pic
Ah. I wouldn't put it around the back, but I would move it around the corner on the front to the bolt holding the power steering pump bracket to the front of the head, just the edge of which is visible in his photo. That's where mine is and it seems to work fine.
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Did the factory use an engine to frame ground? Where is it? I'm not at my truck right now but don't remember one on it or any of the v8 chevy's I've had.
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Electrical diagram shows battery to engine ground, battery to frame ground, and engine to body ground.
It does not show engine to frame ground, though mine has one that looks original.