73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Brakes, Frame, Steering & Suspension => Topic started by: LTZ C20 on October 19, 2015, 12:22:16 pm
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Hey all, I'm just pondering ideas on how to increase the GVWR of my truck. Its a C20 Camper Special, 14 bolt corporate, 4.10s gears and it has 9 leafs per spring pack. The entire suspension of the truck is all except for the shocks which I replaced about 5 years ago with yellow bodied monroe gas magnums for 3/4 ton trucks.
I've looked at air adjustable shocks, I've looked at air bag helper springs, I've also had a quote from a local spring shop to re arc my current springs and I've also looked at just replacing the packs with new sets.
I can't decide which to do. My current GVWR is 8200, I'de like to push it to at least 10,000. I like the air helper spring idea, I'm wondering if it would be easy to replace the spring pack with a 1 ton set?
I can post picks of suspension if needed. As always, experience welcome, thanks for looking.
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From what I understand 8600 is the max for 3/4 tons. If you wanted anything higher you would have to go to 1 ton with the taller frame and they start at 8700 and end with 11000. Don't know for sure but I think you need a new frame to up the gvwr.
What are your plans?
How many springs in the rear?
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You are correct about the 8600 rating, my 8200 is a typo, I ment 8600. I'm not trying to register it as a higher weight rated truck, I'm just wanting to up my towing ability.
I have a 30 foot travel trailer, another tent trailer, the shop trailer at work and the trailer for my go kart buggy to tow. Plus any time I may need to tow something heavy unexpectedly, like another vehicle on the shop flat bed trailer.
I have 18 springs in the rear, 9 per side, no over load springs.
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http://www.equipmentworld.com/understanding-your-pickups-max-payload-capacity-and-how-helper-springs-make-a-smooth-ride-of-a-heavy-load/
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That was a good read, I think I get the subtle point I suspect your trying to make.
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Maybe lol. Air bags and helper springs don't increase the gvwr. They will improve the ride quality and make the ride safer. You could always increase the amount of springs but you will bounce all over and break your back
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Box the frame and put a Dana 80 under it.
I'm still trying to figure out what they did with the CUCV's that got them up to 9400 GVWR. Anyone know?
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Box the frame and put a Dana 80 under it.
I'm still trying to figure out what they did with the CUCV's that got them up to 9400 GVWR. Anyone know?
That's not going to happen. Lol
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I found that Air Lift's newest product is available for my truck. I like the kit, it's price seams good for what I want. Where it gets expensive is that I like the idea of onboard inflation/deflation.
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Think the cucvs just got an overload spring that boost the gvwr up
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Ok so hears a thougt. Replace my old springs with a new spring pack for a 1 ton non-dually, then add air lift helper springs. Does that sound like it should be sufficient? Also, how many leafs are in a spring pack for 1 ton camper special, is it 9 like a 3/4 ton or more/less? 1 ton springs should fit no problem right, just be a remove and replace deal, as long as they are for the same year and are for a fleet side 2wd like my truck is? Or should I stick with a 3/4 ton set and just add the helpers?
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Well, 8600 is the 1-ton GVWR, so you're already maxed out with your current setup. That's as high as the square bodies go, or anything else before the 3500 HDs (with the exception of the CUCVs).
Different springs aren't going to take you any higher because other components are still rated at 8600. The 14-bolt is rated at 8600 and it's the heaviest rated axle for that time, to my knowledge. The frame is also rated at 8600. If you want to have 11,000 GVWR, then you're talking about a 1-ton HD frame and a heavy axle like a Dana 80.
So the answer to the theoretical question you asked, how to get to 11k GVWR, is to beef up the frame (like boxing it) and put a higher rated axle underneath (like a Dana 80). Not a simple or cheap proposition.
If you're asking a more practical question, (what spring setup will keep me from sagging when I tow heavy loads), then the answer is more simple. I have three trucks from that time period. One is a 1-ton and two are 3/4-tons. All are rated at 8600 GVWR (1-ton GVWR rating). My '89 Sub has 7 leaves. The '86 crew has 8 leaves. My '90 1-ton (new body style) has been modified to carry my Lance camper. It has 6 thicker leaves, plus a set of healthy overload springs. It also has some airbags that no longer hold air. When I stack the camper on it, the frame gets very wiggly. Mind you, this is the new body style which had a partially boxed frame from the factory, and it's still wiggly. The square body frames had no boxing of any kind. This is why I say to box the frame. The brakes also have a tendency to get hot, which is why I say to put a heavier axle under the truck. Even then, bushings and shocks blow out with much greater frequency on the '90 than the other trucks. C'est la vie.
Air bags do not hold up over time. Mine are full of cracks and I'm scared to use them. Admittedly, they could be over 20 years old too. They do reduce sway much more than the overload springs alone, however, so if that's an issue, consider them. In addition, the overload springs give the truck a rake, so if you don't want the back to sit higher than the front when unloaded, air bags are your natural choice.
Bottom line, I'd say overload springs would be your best, longest-lasting and cheapest option. Air bags have other advantages.
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Ok, I looked at my camper special emblems, the GVWR is 8200, not 8600. With 8600 being the 1 ton GVWR, that's only an increase of 400 pounds. I was only looking to break 10,000 lbs anyway.
Dr, your statement "(what spring setup will keep me from sagging when I tow heavy loads)" is probably the really question I was trying to ask. I think is was looking at it the wrong way. Sagging and 40 year old springs is what I'm wanting to correct. I do like the truck have a rake when unloaded, it's a big truck, it should have a rake, so that when loaded it rides level.
I'm open to either overload springs or air bags, I like the air bag idea because you can adjust each side as necessary, it sounds like once an overload spring is pushed down, it doesn't have the ability to push back up like an air bag. My truck rides pretty smooth now, not a Cadillac floating on clouds but for an old truck it's very comfortable. How does on of these trucks with bags ride compared to one with overload springs?
Dr Snooz, I found your info very helpful. Your right, because right now boxing the frame and swapping axles is not a good route for the intended use, cost and frequency of use.
I like that my truck is heavier duty than a regular 3/4 because of the camper special option, I'de like to keep that by using 9 springs again if I replace the rears with new. It's one of those factory original options that I would like to keep with the truck as that is what makes it kind of special.
I just looked at truck we have on the lot here at work, it's a 2015 Chevy 2wd standard cab, long bed 3500 HD with a gas 6.0 liter engine, it has 6 leafs with 2 overload leafs in the rear and has a GVWR of 10,400. That's 8 total per side. Still less then my 9 leaf set. My truck is also 2wd, standard cab, long bed, with a 355 TBI. My hp compared to the new 6.0's is comparable, my current engine puts out over 400 ftlbs of torque so I have enough muscle to tow.
For cost comparison sake, a set of 1 or 2 over load springs for my truck, compared to an air bag set up with no onboard inflation system, price about the same or is one cheaper than the other? If I use over loads, should I use a factory type set up or a new aftermarket kit?
What affects will a rear sway bar have on all of this also, as I want to put one of those on and I don't currently have one.
I also plan to replace the front coil springs with new HD springs, which I think it came with from the factory anyway via the Camper Special option. One of my springs is slightly collapsed just a little but. Right now, unloaded the truck rides dead level, the shop trailer at work, empty makes it start to squat.
Thanks all again for your wisdom.
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i agree with everything dr. said but something else to add on is your gvwr is how much your truck can weight with the driver and tongue weight of a trailer. that being said your truck is rated at 8600 lbs. your curb weight is close to 4k. so you can have 4k (or so) extra weight. if your hauling a trailer and you have 4k in tongue weight then you might be having other problems. helper springs should be good but like said it will lift the rear up
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One of the guys at work recommended I call a curtain spring shop in the area. I did, spent about 30 min on the phone with them. Told him what I had, what I wanted, what I have to tow, the guy was really knowledgeable. Sounded like he'd been doin this kinda thing for a very long time. He told me to take some measurements, along with hooking up my heaviest trailer and taking some other measurements and use a floor jack on the rear to figure out exactly what I want for ride height and how much I will need to go up. He said he also might have a set of new springs already made so check back when I'm ready to do the work. He also recommended that before I do anything to the rear, I do whatever it is to the front first that I want. This is because the rear is adjustable (the springs can be arced to the desired spec) front springs or not (that's without cutting springs of course, there won't be any of that going on here).
So I'm gonna go take some measurements and see what I come up with. Probably going to end up doing the front first. Then do the rear. At this point it's gonna be a hold on any helpers of any kind, wait till I get the stock suspension back to where I want it and then evaluate the situation again. He also said, unless I'm going to being using one of those in bed campers or driving around alot with loads above the roof of the cab, don't worry about a rear sway bar, it won't be needed unless I've got alot of weight above the roof line and the truck becomes top heavy.
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What is your guys preference in quality steering parts. The guy at the spring shop said do the ball joints if you do the front springs. I know some members like Napa for stuff like that, what about Moog, I've heard they are good also?
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Moog is all I use
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Moog is all I use
How many of thier products have you used and which products?
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Moog is all I use
How many of thier products have you used and which products?
My entire front end is rebuilt with their stuff; tie rod ends, tie rods, drag links, ball joints, u-joints.
Never buy it from your local store either get it off Rock Auto and use their 5% code and you'll save tons of money. For example when I needed my tie rod ends and my front tie rod it was going to be $160 CAD for the tie rod and $45 CAD for the tie rod end. Through RA even with shipping and exchange rate it only cost me $160 and change.
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Oh that's pretty cool. I'll check out rock auto.
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I was looking on Rock Auto last night, they seem to have everything in the Moog brand, I saw they also had AC Delco Professional also, few dollars cheaper for Delco parts but that's as close to factory as I'm gonna be able to get. I believe factory is better for parts like this. Have to make a list of everything to compare prices Moog to Delco and see where the final price tag lands at.
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I'm a big fan of Moog too. Their upper control arms for my Honda are better than the OE brand.
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Well after thorough research of part numbers & prices, I have made a decision. I will be rebuilding the front end first, then I will be re springing the rear end.
The front will be new control arms, tie rods, springs, adjuster sleeves, pitman & idler arms. I know it sounds like over kill since this started as wanting to boost up the rear, but after careful thought and advice from professionals, restoring the front, then evaluating and fixing the rear after seems like the logical thing to do. After all, it's over 35 yrs old and the ball joints look to be possibly original as they are riveted in, there are some blown dust boots up front and in the 6 years I've had it, I've never really done much with the suspension/steering except lube it and shocks 5 years ago. Only the good Lord above knows what it's been thru before I bought it.
All of the parts I'm going to get for the front will be AC Delco. Either from my work or Rock Auto. I've got an estimate of parts & shipping from R.A., just need sales tax for CA on R.A. and from work. So when that is figured out and all cost factors from both parties have been established, I will decide on who my supplier will be.
I'm allowing my self to save up 100 or 200 bucks from each check until the end of the year, then I will buy all the parts and do it all at once so I only have to align it once.
So when the front is done, depending on price and what the spring shop has already built or not, the rears will either be replaced or re arced and cleaned up.
I appreciate everyone's input, knowledge and experience. It helped me make a logical decision, as apposed to the more hasty ones I sometimes make when I get on these money sucking tangents haha.
Thanks again all!
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I did the exact same thing as you. I knew with a 40 year old truck lots of stuff regarding drive train was going to be worn and tired out beyond tired.
So I started with the engine to make it run better which resulted in me cleaning up the front end and now I am doing the rear brakes and will be doing cylinders, hard lines and soft lines tomorrow. Then I will worry about the rest.
But these old trucks need lots of love in the drive train department so good on you for fixing it right. And don't forget RA also has 5% off discounts which are easy to find and if you want one let me know.
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It's an out of control snow ball affect that turns into an avalanche and then it's all over and the whole truck is new again lol. Thanks for the offer.
I figured out the total price of everything from work with tax and the total price of everything from RA with tax and shipping. The two totals are about 18 dollars difference, RA being cheaper. I'm not sure what is required or what the hassle may be if I have to send a part back if I have an issue if I get them from RA. I know with work it's really easy to take something back haha. I don't even know for sure if RA charges sales tax for buyers in CA but I leaned on the side of they do just to get a price, if they don't then it will obviously be less money. Either way, I'm considering paying the extra 18 bucks for convenience. The money will be spent anyway. Plus I'm going to get Energy Suspension urathane bump stops from my local O'Weirdly's. It's all good! Even tho its expensive, deep down inside I think I really enjoy spending large amounts of cash on this truck haha. I'm terminally obsessed.
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I had ordered a set of ball joints from RA and they were oddly missing pieces. I filed a warranty issue and within a day they shipped me out a new one on their dime and didn't require the old one back.
For a $20 difference I'd just buy locally.
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I highly recommend poking your head under the truck and doing a thorough visual inspection before buying a bunch of stuff. You're going to find things you didn't expect and some of what you did expect won't be necessary. For instance, the ball joints have zerks and can last a very long time. Bushings, however, are another matter and you may be surprised to find some really bad ones. Match your buying to your needs and you'll do better in the long run.
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I had ordered a set of ball joints from RA and they were oddly missing pieces. I filed a warranty issue and within a day they shipped me out a new one on their dime and didn't require the old one back.
For a $20 difference I'd just buy locally.
Nice. That was my thoughts pretty much.
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I highly recommend poking your head under the truck and doing a thorough visual inspection before buying a bunch of stuff. You're going to find things you didn't expect and some of what you did expect won't be necessary. For instance, the ball joints have zerks and can last a very long time. Bushings, however, are another matter and you may be surprised to find some really bad ones. Match your buying to your needs and you'll do better in the long run.
I did about a year ago, I used one of the Multi-Point inspection sheets from work that we use on customers vehicles. I don't remember everything that I marked down as "Requires Future Attention" but I do remember it was quiet a few things that got a check in the yellow box along with 1 or 2 things that got a check in the red box. So I don't mind replacing everything, I know some might say it's unnecessary or may be a bit hasty but what the heck, I got over 12 grand into the truck already and it keeps me off the streets lol. Brakes are starting to squeeze also, probably need to inspect the rears at some point, haven't touched them since I've owned it either and that's where the squeek is coming from. I have a relative idea of what I will find if I was to do another inspection.
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i understand wanting to replace all the parts just due to normal wear and tear. but dont cheap out and get cheap parts. my 94 c1500 the lower ball joint broke one year a friend replaced it with napa's brand and in one year maybe two it broke again. i replaced it this time (cant remember the price, but i didnt get the cheap one) and it lasted years. but since it was apart i should of replaced everything since it had years on them.
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That's exactly why I'm not getting cheap parts, they are all AC Delco parts and the total bill just for all the delco stuff is about 800 dollars and change. That's not including bump stops and how ever much my buddy at work is gonna charge me on the side to align it when I'm done. Who knows, he might do it for cheap and a six pack lol. Actually he most likely will for free beer hahaha.