73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Engine/Drivetrain => Topic started by: LTZ C20 on September 06, 2016, 12:27:55 am
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Some may know, some may not, but I put a 89' 4L60 in my C20 about a year and half maybe 2 years ago to go behind my 350. It's tied into the ECM for my TBI so I have working lock-up. When I got this trans, it was used obviously, but it was a GM SeRTA transmission. Well not knowing it's history, before I ever used it, I had it rebuilt and beefed up. So we put in a corvette servo, hardened steel drum drum I think it's called, couple small things to make it shift firmer along with the servo, racing clutches front to back and upgraded from the stock 4 pinion to the 5 pinion rear planetary gear set from a 4L60E.
Well about 2 weeks ago, one morning on my way to work, I took off from a stop light and the truck never got past second gear, 3rd and 4th never happened, like they were just not even invited to the party. So I drove it with or trans Tech, he confirmed it needed to be pulled and disassembled for inspection.
So diagnosis reported that the 3-4 accumulator piston got a chunk of its seal torn off, if I remember correctly what he said, this sent debris thru the pump. Well that took the anodized coating off the pump slide and dropped the pump pressure. So then fluid to the 3-4 clutches wasn't enough and they burned up progressively from front to rear of the pack. The front going from lightly burned to the back being completely burnt up and a loss of 3rd and 4th gear. He also found the input drum/shaft has some excessive tolerance where bearings go and they could be better. The 3 small aluminum accumulator pistons center holes are slightly worn and not perfectly round anymore. The larger and small spring drums had some springs removed also for firmer shifts. The first builder used lead bb's flattened to plug 3 fluid holes on the valve body separator plate so it would shift harder and put some hole reducer plugs in a few spots on valve body (case side) also for a firmer shift. The 1-2 shift on this thing was always FIRM, (by firm i mean it just about slammed in to 2nd) but I never had any issues with it, it drove great, very responsive, got 16K miles on it with no problems until 2 weeks ago when it literally flipped the light switch off and 3rd and 4th gear went bye bye.
So this new trans tech we have is going to re-rebuild it. It's getting a stock larger servo, new separator plate with no holes plugged, new accumulator pistons, new spring drums with all the springs installed, new input drum/shaft, stock clutches which are thicker than the racing clutches for the 3-4 clutch pack. He said the racing ones can stay in the other 2 clutch packs but the stock ones will be better for the 3-4 pack and of course it's also getting all new bearings, seals, gaskets and such required for a full rebuild. Also a new 5 pinion gear set as the current was damaged, found upon disassembly. I told him to replace anything questionable as I don't want to have to pull this thing out again for a very long time. It will still shift firmer than stock but be much tamer than before, should be a happy medium between stock and slamming.
I will also be doing some upgrades that it never got the first time around. This includes a deep sump aluminum pan from Summit, reusable rubber pan gasket with steel core from Lube Locker. I will be drilling the pan and adding a trans temp sensor from Dakota Digital in preparation for Dakota VHX gauges in the future. I already have an external B&M Super Cooler in front of the A/C condenser.
Another possible upgrade is a better torque converter. The converter I was using was the one it came with when I got it, I'm assuming it's the stock one. Now that it's been thru 2 rebuilds, I just don't feel like taking any chances on it, even tho the 1st tech said it was fine to use the first time and the 2nd tech is saying it's still good to use again. So I'm looking at converters that are best suited for towing needs. I have found some prospects on Summit, TCI Auto and Monster Transmissions. I do need to know a few things tho:
A: What is the factory stall speed for a 1989 4L60.
B: Triple confirmation that 85-up 700R-4's and 4L60's used 30 spline input shafts.
C: What are your guys experienced recommendations on a stall speed and converter for my truck as I have built this to be a strong tow/haul rig. My camshaft did not have any recommendations for increased stall speeds over stock. The truck has a 14 bolt full floater with 4:10 gears which I am very happy with and do not intend to change. I want to be able to make use of as much available torque as possible.
Note: When the transmission was working, I could cruise at 55-60mph, in 4th gear, in lock-up and the engine ran 1500 rpm.
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time for a nv4500
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time for a nv4500
Not gonna happen. For this truck, I have zero interest in a manual transmission.
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Torn 3-4 accumulator piston seal.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160906/aa5c8b67fa223efc1e9e21acff6cbb81.jpg)
Burnt 3-4 clutch pack.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160906/53e1b175814c6ed064fb2a2eba8fc2c8.jpg)
Damaged 5 pinion gear set.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160906/c71969c029107089fbe35e7e6f84202e.jpg)
Good & burnt clutch packs.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160906/bbe019c72db7b61544a326bea797a514.jpg)
Hardened steel drum and large & small spring drums missing springs.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160906/296e8b2da5823d061e7fb23dc80da54d.jpg)
Corvette servo.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160906/bc672635e9789f065c7409d3fd326c08.jpg)
Plugged separator plate holes.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160906/799346c759164b70939b11089095aa3b.jpg)
Damaged rear gear set.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160906/ff247a04b8a24aabe362352958dc559d.jpg)
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New deep pan.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160906/9c3aac234b44029b553817c9ef35fac0.jpg)
Reusable gasket.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160906/b17a831a251033a39d0b763a19c4a910.jpg)
Dakota sensor.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160906/49614477301302be504f68afefd6be65.jpg)
Cleaned and ready for assembly.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160906/84b8a9d588d4c3de43237bb33f3c6b5a.jpg)
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I would have upgraded to a 4l80e, I know quite a few people who have towed with the 60 and they don't last, course you made a few sensible upgrades, so you may be alright.
Good luck, hope it works out well(and keep the pics coming-I like them)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I would have upgraded to a 4l80e, I know quite a few people who have towed with the 60 and they don't last, course you made a few sensible upgrades, so you may be alright.
Good luck, hope it works out well(and keep the pics coming-I like them)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That's what I wanted to do but couldn't afford it and would have required another stand alone computer. With this I have 1 ECM for engine and trans so it was cheaper. We upgraded everything that normally breaks on the 4L60's. What I really really really want is the 6 speed Allison from a Duramax, even better yet the Duramax and the Allison together but that is a completely different topic.
I'm only concerned with making this one the best it can be. A few guys at the shop have had good words to say about this new transmission tech and his abilities with the older units. So I know it will get fixed properly and he knows my intended use for it and said it will be better this time around. I'll do my best with the pictures.
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all this over one little piece of rubber. good luck with the new one
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all this over one little piece of rubber. good luck with the new one
Yep. It's no bueno when stuff decides to fail. I was going to do the deep sump pan and sensor on my next transmission service. But this happened first so I might as well do it now.
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Good luck!
By the way u said u are from Modesto if u Dnt mind me asking who's building it for u?
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Good luck!
By the way u said u are from Modesto if u Dnt mind me asking who's building it for u?
Our new to us transmission tech, his name is Don.
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So here are the 4 converters I'm looking at currently.
Hughes Performance
model GM22LXTM
stall 1800rpm
with lock up
30 spline
700R4, 4L60, 4L60E
$409
Hughes Performance
model GM22LTOW
stall 1800rpm
with lock up
30 spline
700R4, 4L60, 4L60E
$384
TCI Transmissions
model 242820
stall ?? doesn't say
with lock up
30 spline
700R4, 4L60, 4L60E
$398
Monster Transmissions
model B29DLLF
stall 1650rpm "low stall"
with lock up
30 spline
700R4, 4L60, 4L60E
$175, currently on sale.
I've read some reviews on Summit's site about the Hughes converters, only 1 out of 7 has been bad, the rest seam pretty good. Summit shows no info on the stall speed of the TCI one, same as TCI's website. The monster one looks pretty nice, I'm not sure whether the "low stall" will be better or not than the higher 1800 stalls.
I still don't know what the factory stall is for the converter I was using.
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monster has a bad rap and a web page just about their "good" tans, stay away. if you want better mpgs you want the low stall if you go with the higher stall then you can get into your power band of the engine faster. low stall is something like 1400-1600 which is stock for sbc bbc and diesel the 1600-1800 is for v6s from what i understand
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http://monster-transmission.pissedconsumer.com/
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I've heard mixed reviews about Monster and it seems a bit weird that their version is about 1/3 the price of others that should do the same thing. I've found info that it basically saying stock stall could be anywhere from 12 or 1400 to 2 or 2200rpm depending on application. Doesn't really help me there.
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http://monster-transmission.pissedconsumer.com/
That sucks. But, it is a ferd lol.
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stock stall depends on the motor for a 350 it should be the low stall 1400ish
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Ok. How about a 350 producing roughly 360-375hp & 400-425ft lbs. Has roller cam and is tbi.
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im not an expert in this and this is only my opinion. but if you want the better mpgs go with stock, if you want to reach your power band faster go with a higher stall. if you dont plan on racing anyone go stock even if you do race stock wont really hurt you and i wouldnt care unless i was trying to win money. my cummins wants/likes the 1200 stall vs the 1400. but my power band is much lower, for a sbc i would op for the 1800.
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Race no. It's not a racing truck. It a hauling and towing truck. Mpg's I would kind of like better but not really. I mean better mpg's is always good but the truck has the aerodynamic properties of cinder block so I don't really care. I will probably get better mpg's just being able to get the truck up and moving quicker with a higher stalls right? More efficient use of available torque? I think get up and go power with a heavy load will be better also with a non stock converter, not as much wasted torque?
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OEM stall should be about 1300 RPM. Hughes makes a decent converter; I ran one for several years and was satisfied. What's the CFM of your throttle body, what are the cam specs, what axle ratio and tire diameter? Without naming names, be guarded and do extensive research when purchasing aftermarket performance transmission hard parts. As tempting as it is to believe what you want to hear, keep in mind that companies are driven to sell their wares. If something sounds too good to be true....
What does your transmission tech have to say about converter stall for your application?
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What does your transmission tech have to say about converter stall for your application?
this would be a very good step.
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Ok 1300. That's a solid number to work with. Good to know Hughes are decent products.
Throttle body cfm is 670. Stock cfm for a big block TBI. At least that's what I was told.
Cam is Comp Xtreme Energy, OE roller cam 1987-2002 sbc 305-350, 1200-5200 range, lobe sep 110, intake centerline 106, duration 264 int 270 exh, duration @ .050 is 212 int 218 exh, valve lift is .487 int .495 exh, valve timing .006.
Axle is 4:10 with 265/75R16 tires.
I want to make a careful and informed decision for 3 main reasons. 1, these things are expensive! 2, I want to do what is best for my engine, trans. Don't want to rebuild it a 3rd time. 3, if I just pick one and I end up for whatever reason finding that I need a different one, these are a PITA to just "swap out A for B".
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What does your transmission tech have to say about converter stall for your application?
this would be a very good step.
He knows I plan to tow with it and he rode in the truck with me, so he knows it has some decent power. I told him I've been poking around at converters. He said "I'll get you a price on a stock one." Not sure if his recommendation is stock unit or if that's simply the ones he can get thru his supplier. He has built hundreds of these working at independent transmission shops, I would be hard pressed to believe they have all beenough stock. I'm going to run these 4 options by him tomorrow and see what he says. He did say stock shouldn't be more than $200.
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if you tow i would also go for a lower stall. the more of a stall the higher your trans temp will get and this an kill the trans fluid.
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if you tow i would also go for a lower stall. the more of a stall the higher your trans temp will get and this an kill the trans fluid.
That seems to be the general consensus for towing applications.
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So, you're using the Comp 08-412-8 with a 670 CFM dual throat throttle body. With the Dart heads, I'm supposing that combination should come alive around 2100 RPM, with torque peaking around 3000 and HP peaking ~5100 then dropping off quickly. Does that sound about right?
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Sounds just about spot on actually. It pulls with the most muscle from 2000-3500. Not sure where hp peaks at, I've never pushed the new block passed 4500.
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From a hot rodding perspective I think an 1800+ RPM stall would fire stoplight acceleration. BUT, considering that you want to tow and haul as well, you would be better off with a stall RPM proud of 1400. In addition, I recommend a B&M 70274 cooler plumbed through ATI 925138 fittings and -8 AN line. You could add an inline spin-on filter to keep debris out of the coolers and converter in case of a subsequent failure; a temperature sender could be mounted conveniently in the filter base. Synthetic fluid also is a good idea. Just an opinion.
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Talk to a Hughes rep - they ~do~ know their stuff.
I contacted all the major converter manufacturers when choosing mine, and I was the most impressed with Hughes customer service, and their recommendation for me was spot on.
I'd say for towing you want a fairly low stall.
I have a 2500 converter, snotty cam, and deep gears. Hughes says absolutely no towing for me, says I can't have the converter the cam needs, AND pull a trailer (which is fine for me). Too high a stall with too heavy a load, and the heat will destroy the trans.
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I'll give Hughes a call then. BD, I already have a B&M cooler hooked up. It's all plumbed with steel hard lines and SAE hose rated for ATF. I use only Dexron VI ATF. Tho I am considering switching to the heavy duty Dex VI, only thing with that is that it is very expensive.
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I just got off the phone with Hughes Performance. They recommended the GM22LXTM, which is the 1st of the 4 that I posted on page 2.
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with a 1800 stall???
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do they offer anything lower?
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Not sure. But that's what they said and I told him my cam specs, gears and tires.
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did you tell him about towing
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http://hughesperformance.com/xtm-xfm/ (http://hughesperformance.com/xtm-xfm/)
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did you tell him about towing
Yep
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http://hughesperformance.com/xtm-xfm/ (http://hughesperformance.com/xtm-xfm/)
Looking at the GM chart, 700R4/4L60 30 spline options, the GM21LFUEL is a 1200 stall. The GM22LTOW is an 1800 stall. The GM22LXFM does not provide a stall rating and the GM22LXTM is an 1800 stall. All 4 models are between 350 and 400 bucks.
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I can't believe you had two "trans tech's" tell you it was fine to reuse the converter after a complete failure especially with a SRTA!
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I can't believe you had two "trans tech's" tell you it was fine to reuse the converter after a complete failure especially with a SRTA!
I think the reason they said that was because the fluid was perfect BUT the first guy said it's fine without actually seeing it as he now lives in Idaho. The second one said it is fine to reuse if you want too. Just the seal caused it to fail. But none the less, I'm going to replace it now and so far it appears that the Hughes GM22LXTM is my best option.
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So the trans tech just told me he can get me a new converter for about 100 bucks. It is a PDQ brand, he said it was an HD version of the stock, it has a heavy duty reinforced bearing. Stall speed is 1200-1600.
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Stall speed is 1200-1600.
Based on what criteria? Multiple part numbers? Dependent on engine torque? If one P/N ranges 1200 - 1600 RPM for a given application - that's not a big confidence builder! LOL
Not knockin' it, just askin'. lol
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Stall speed is 1200-1600.
Based on what criteria? Multiple part numbers? Dependent on engine torque? If one P/N ranges 1200 - 1600 RPM for a given application - that's not a big confidence builder! LOL
Not knockin' it, just askin'. lol
I asked him if that was the case. I assumed different part numbers as well. He said nope, one converter. I think it depends on available torque. That's all the info I could get. I tried searching the PDQ website but I couldn't't find anything that matched the info I already had.
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JMHO but your cam appears to be a little radical for a towing low torque producing engine. The LSA of 110 degrees is passing a lot of fuel mixture in and out until rpm rise makes everything catch up. The lumpity lump sounds great but kills low end
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JMHO but your cam appears to be a little radical for a towing low torque producing engine. The LSA of 110 degrees is passing a lot of fuel mixture in and out until rpm rise makes everything catch up. The lumpity lump sounds great but kills low end
I understand what your saying. It's not that lope sounding anyway, it's actually a pretty smooth idle just with a nice muscle sound. The truck also has aluminum heads and a block bored 40 over. It makes good power at low end. I've had relatively easy time in past being able to pass some slow poke while towing a load trailer. I just think it could be better with a better converter. Almost everything I have put into the engine has been recommended by Summit's Tech Support with full knowledge of my current specs and intentions. The 110 lobe separation is because it's fuel injected. I love the current engine, it does everything I need it too.
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I still haven't made a decision on this yet. Opinions?
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Candidly, your indecision stems from no personal (seat of the pants) experience with the real world effects of altering converter stall RPM. Realistically, your truck is dual purposed: 1) impressive, quick launches versus 2) towing/hauling, fuel economy, and drivetrain life. The two purposes conflict. To complicate matters, add the facts that since you're not tuning to win races based on quantitative data, nor are you using the truck to generate revenue, your focus for selecting a converter is somewhat arbitrary and stall RPM becomes personal preference - in other words the "feel" of one stall compared to the other. Lower RPM stalls engage quicker (over a narrower RPM range) that higher RPM stalls. They 'feel' different. You haven't enjoyed the opportunity to experience that difference.
I run a 355 with 10:1 compression, 202°/212° @ 0.050", 0.560"/0.560" valve lift, 113° LSA, 109° ICL retro-roller, AFR 1041 heads, Edelbrock retro 600 CFM MPFI, and Crane HI-6 ignition, twisting a 3.42 axle ratio and 31" tall tires through a beefy 4L60. The primary difference in our trucks outside of curb weight is engine RPM vs MPH road speed. I ran a higher stall Hughes converter for a couple of years with no problems... then switched back to an OE stall, because I prefer the 'feel' of a more positive engagement.
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I agree. I don't have much in the way of non stock converters. So basically, which one would be best? Stock or aftermarket. Everything you listed for #2 of the dual purpose is what I care about. I'm not in high school anymore, quick launches only get you exhibition of speed tickets lol.
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if it was mine i would go for the low stall or stock and from what ive read the reason theres a gap on the ranges like 1400-1600 is because the stall depends on the engine tq. so a 6 banger with that stall might stall at 1400 while a 454 might stall at 1600.
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I agree Irish. Under the circumstances I would lean toward the heavy duty PDQ converter recommended by LTZ's transmission tech. A 1200 - 1600 stall range should effectively work out to slightly proud of 1400 based on the torque his engine is producing. I think the quicker engagement of a 1400+ converter would be ideal for his circumstances.
LTZ - I'm sorry to say you will always second guess and wonder, "But, what if I had used the other converter?" The only way to actually "know" is to try the other converter. Only then will you have sufficient experience to confidently apply your own judgement without second guessing. It's agonizing!
Nonetheless, it seems the general consensus on this forum is to use the lower stall converter, in spite of Hughes' recommendation.
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I agree Irish. Under the circumstances I would lean toward the heavy duty PDQ converter recommended by LTZ's transmission tech. A 1200 - 1600 stall range should effectively work out to slightly proud of 1400 based on the torque his engine is producing. I think the quicker engagement of a 1400+ converter would be ideal for his circumstances.
LTZ - I'm sorry to say you will always second guess and wonder, "But, what if I had used the other converter?" The only way to actually "know" is to try the other converter. Only then will you have sufficient experience to confidently apply your own judgement without second guessing. It's agonizing!
Nonetheless, it seems the general consensus on this forum is to use the lower stall converter, in spite of Hughes' recommendation.
WONDERFUL! Thank you all. I'll get the PDQ converter. I'm more than happy to wonder about "what if" I used the Hughes converter but I'm not going to spend $100 on a PDQ and then $425 on a Hughes and R&R the trans a few times just to play with converters to "feel" somethings slightly different. For $525 that slightly different feel ain't worth the trouble! I'll experience it when required on a different machine.
Thank you all again. On the plus, the PDQ is cheap so I might be able to swing it with the other stuff on the next paycheck and I won't have to wait another 2 weeks to drive my truck again.
Thanks to all again!
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I figured you would see the light, as well as the silliness in second guessing. You just needed a little encouragement. ;D I think you'll be very satisfied with the outcome... especially at 1/5 the cost! 8)
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I figured you would see the light, as well as the silliness in second guessing. You just needed a little encouragement. ;D I think you'll be very satisfied with the outcome... especially at 1/5 the cost! 8)
Darn skippy. I just don't want to do something twice for relatively the same outcome and one way be x amount of dollars and the other way be xxxxx amount. I'm trying to get hired with local law enforcement agencies, I don't really have the time to be dilly dallying around with my transmission. This whole second rebuild is already a giant PITA.
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Welcome to the world of high performance, partner. Unfortunately, I gained my experience the hard way with no one to nudge me in the right direction. It figures I'd begin with the expensive option and work backward. lol Oh well, you know what they say about hindsight....
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Thanks. I don't mind experimenting, just not on my DD and when I don't have the lettuce to make the salad. You know what I mean?
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I do.
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Hey since I got you guys here. I have another question.
The dipstick tube for the trans is the one that goes with the 89 truck the trans came out of. The tab welded to the tube for the bell housing bolt broke off so it's got 3 little holes in it and nothing to anchor it. I have the dip stick and tube from my old TH350. I measured the 350 tube using a piece of string to follow the bends and then used a tape measure to find the length of the string straightened out. It's 30 inches long. I measured the 700 tube the same way, it's 29 3/4 inches. I then measured both dipsticks and they are both 33 inches long and laid next to each other they are the same and their hot and cold marks line up with each other.
So I should be able to cut a 1/4 inch off the end of the 350 tube and use it right? It's properly shaped to the body of the truck and it's mounting tab isn't broken off.
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what matters is the base of the dip stick tube and stick. put the sticks in their tubes, then measure from the end of the dip stick to the shoulder of the tube. thats what matters
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If I'm following you, those are the same. I'll double check when I get home.
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So, got some progress with the rebuild.
All new seals, gaskets, accumulators.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160913/d6534c8ab634fb461b44e66fbfc97a64.jpg)
New separator plate.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160913/7dae46e87b902ec91eb6a3adfdc0a393.jpg)
New pump rotor, vanes and slide. New stock servo, all these parts are cleaned up and ready for assembly.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160913/db6ed30ddcf074384e62db58c6048f68.jpg)
New 5 pinion rear gear set.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160913/143a5610311e359c3f648f0d1ad9292f.jpg)
New to me (used) but better than mine input drum.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160913/e21157ba6c01fac1135a89dea3402a07.jpg)
Ok, that's all I got.
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Looking good, what's it take, about a week to put together and install? Or you installing yourself?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Looking good, what's it take, about a week to put together and install? Or you installing yourself?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
He said if he worked on it straight thru it should only take about 6 hours but he has family events going on so he's doing an hour or so every day. He did say it should be done this week. I pulled it out myself so I'll put it back in. I thought about rebuilding it myself just to learn but he said he would do it for me so I didn't bother.
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Alright Irish, I'm assuming this is the area you meant.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160913/0e08d81986e34f441e3802b227895a55.jpg)
Also, I cut my crossmember to make services easier, no ledge in the way of pan bolts anymore.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160913/0a8c6137d0d5fa97e8526de5ecb8846d.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160913/bb92b0e5a529907ddfe1e9b739a1739a.jpg)
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Alright Irish, I'm assuming this is the area you meant.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160913/0e08d81986e34f441e3802b227895a55.jpg)
Yes, if you can cut the TOP of the 350 tube so the dipstick matches the 4L60, which is around 5/16", that way the dipstick slides in further and matches the 4L60 depth, it should work fine.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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That's what I was thinking. The "shouldered" area probably won't matter much because the stick will go down further after the tube is cut and I'm putting a deep pan on it.
BUT, the shouldered area creates a calm fluid area so the fluid leaves a level, accurate mark on the stick. If the top of the tube is cut, forcing the stick to protrude further out the bottom, will this expose enough stick to then be in an open area where fluid is sloshing around, being pumped in and out, not calm, causing an inaccurate mark on the stick, possibly different every single time it is checked.
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That's what I was thinking. The "shouldered" area probably won't matter much because the stick will go down further after the tube is cut and I'm putting a deep pan on it.
BUT, the shouldered area creates a calm fluid area so the fluid leaves a level, accurate mark on the stick. If the top of the tube is cut, forcing the stick to protrude further out the bottom, will this expose enough stick to then be in an open area where fluid is sloshing around, being pumped in and out, not calm, causing an inaccurate mark on the stick, possibly different every single time it is checked.
never really thought about that part lol. im not sure how much turbulence the fluid will have but i doubt it will enough to cause a false reading if it does i dont see it being that much off.
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Why not fabricate and braze a replacement "Y" mounting tab on the original tube to cover the three weld perforations? It's not difficult to do.
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Why not fabricate and braze a replacement "Y" mounting tab on the original tube to cover the three weld perforations? It's not difficult to do.
It's for an 89 1500, the shape is wrong for the body shape of the truck, it fit before but rubbed the firewall and air cleaner housing, I think flexing finally just snapped the bracket off. The 350 tube is shaped for a 73-87 firewall.
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That's what I was thinking. The "shouldered" area probably won't matter much because the stick will go down further after the tube is cut and I'm putting a deep pan on it.
BUT, the shouldered area creates a calm fluid area so the fluid leaves a level, accurate mark on the stick. If the top of the tube is cut, forcing the stick to protrude further out the bottom, will this expose enough stick to then be in an open area where fluid is sloshing around, being pumped in and out, not calm, causing an inaccurate mark on the stick, possibly different every single time it is checked.
never really thought about that part lol. im not sure how much turbulence the fluid will have but i doubt it will enough to cause a false reading if it does i dont see it being that much off.
Well I guess we are going to find out, I just cut 5/16 of an inch off the top of the 350 tube, the bottom of the tube stops halfway between the bottom line of the hot section and the "H" in HOT on the 4L60 stick when it's fully installed in the 350 tube.
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http://www.gopnh.com Check out these guys for converters. Most places won't warranty a tranny if you don't replace the converter. Look at a cut away view, there are too many places for debris to get stuck, only to come out later and destroy a perfectly good tranny. No flushing either, they have to be disassembled and cleaned.
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Also, I cut my crossmember to make services easier, no ledge in the way of pan bolts anymore.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160913/0a8c6137d0d5fa97e8526de5ecb8846d.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160913/bb92b0e5a529907ddfe1e9b739a1739a.jpg)
I suggest that you shallow the angle at the ends of the relief that you cut and radius the corners or the crossmember might eventually develop stress cracks radiating outward from the corners. Removing the entire flange as you have will tend to focus stress and flexing through the narrowed section, and especially around the corners. Removing some of the flange to gain access for easier service is a great idea, but tapering the ends of the cut and leaving 3/8" to 1/2" of flange outboard of the radius will ensure that cracks won't develop.
Why not fabricate and braze a replacement "Y" mounting tab on the original tube to cover the three weld perforations? It's not difficult to do.
It's for an 89 1500, the shape is wrong for the body shape of the truck, it fit before but rubbed the firewall and air cleaner housing, I think flexing finally just snapped the bracket off. The 350 tube is shaped for a 73-87 firewall.
Got it. You could always extend the tube to match the '89 design, but to avoid top-hat seal damage the protruding edge of the tube would need to be slightly radiused.
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Yea that's why I'm just getting a new one.
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http://www.jegs.com/i/TCI/890/743865/10002/-1
Is this the tube you need?
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Also, I cut my crossmember to make services easier, no ledge in the way of pan bolts anymore.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160913/0a8c6137d0d5fa97e8526de5ecb8846d.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160913/bb92b0e5a529907ddfe1e9b739a1739a.jpg)
I suggest that you shallow the angle at the ends of the relief that you cut and radius the corners or the crossmember might eventually develop stress cracks radiating outward from the corners. Removing the entire flange as you have will tend to focus stress and flexing through the narrowed section, and especially around the corners.
Why not fabricate and braze a replacement "Y" mounting tab on the original tube to cover the three weld perforations? It's not difficult to do.
It's for an 89 1500, the shape is wrong for the body shape of the truck, it fit before but rubbed the firewall and air cleaner housing, I think flexing finally just snapped the bracket off. The 350 tube is shaped for a 73-87 firewall.
Got it. You could always extend the tube to match the '89 design, but to avoid top-hat seal damage the protruding edge of the tube would need to be slightly radiused.
The bolt hole that almost lines up with the cut in the flange is for a brace, the end of the brace and cut section should line up just about equal and there are 3 bolts in that 6 inch section. As for doing anymore fabricating, well I already recoated the crossmember so I'll worry about if the issue arises. I look under the truck a lot, keeping an eye on things and when checking fluids and doing services, I keep up on regular maintenance, so I'll keep an eye on it.
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http://www.jegs.com/i/TCI/890/743865/10002/-1
Is this the tube you need?
Yea but that's the 87-up body style, doesn't fit well with the shape of the firewall. I got the 350 tube ready, it should work fine.
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Dip stick tube has a new coat of VHT Roll Bar and Chassis paint and cross member has been recoated in Duplicolor Truck Bed Coating, like it was before I took the cut off torch to it haha. I'll check on the rebuild progress tomorrow.
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Today I ordered a few things, only like 400 bucks worth of things lol. I got a Summit aluminum deep pan, reusable gasket, aluminum Bell housing cover/dust shield, whatever you wanna call it, ARP Bell housing to engine block bolts all from Summit. I also got the trans temp sensor from Dakota Digital in preparation for DD VHX gauges down the road and had the trans guy at work get the new torque converter coming and a magnetic drain plug for the pan from the parts department of work. So tomorrow I should see everything except the plug which I already got. Tomorrow or Saturday morning the trans should be done and I can take it home, get the cooler flushed and hopefully have it back driving Sunday.
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The case of the transmission has a threaded hole just above the shift shaft. I believe it's for checking line pressure. It's about 18.6 mm deep. Would this be a good place to put the temp sensor or would in the pan be better? The sensor does thread into the hole. Which would be better for an accurate temp reading?
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160918/b09badf860c8c6bfbc265c5233b35b08.jpg)
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Locate the temp sensor in the pan or in the cooler line before the cooler. Either location should provide accurate trans temp measurements, although inline may yield faster response to changes in temp.
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Sounds good. In the pan it is.
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So I got the transmission back in yesterday, BUT not without a slew of problems in process. So as a result, it's in, bolts up, crossmember on, holding its on weight, but not much else is on.
So I got the cooler flushed, that was no problem. I actually made a brake clean injector for the air gun. On of the spray straws implanted into the tip of an air nozzle and then the nozzle slid onto the end of an even smaller air gun nozzle.
Worked really good actually.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160919/1ad778d7e9e274278bcb159a3d1db181.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160919/2bf83ed91f81e97313d59e62f67207d9.jpg)
So then I was putting the rear mount on the trans and the threads stripped out before the bolts were tight. That resulted in a quick trip to O'Reilly for heli-coils, I would have preferred a time sert but they didn't have any, heli-coil worked fine tho.
Then during an attempt at installation, the trans slid off the jack and hit the concrete. Luckily it was a short drop, didn't hurt anyone and only chipped the paint off the bottom of the output shaft housing. I've removed and reinstalled the trans multiple times and that's first I've had it slip and fall. The second attempt was successful, got it in and bolted up. The crossmember with its cut edges for the pan bolts works perfectly.
Did I mention I painted it before install? Used Duplicolor Engine Enamel in Castle Coat Grey. Really happy with it, way better than it was before.
Before.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160919/3fb391fd4acc71b8627af1a3caccd89b.jpg)
After.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160919/f8d4b1926c0e66dfd2f220be1963600b.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160919/200106a9fbe0197f7bf3686fc8811c0b.jpg)
Also, the 350 dip stick tube didn't work out, I overlooked one key detail. The hole in the 350 case for the tube is about halfway down the length of the pan. The 4l60 tube hole is just behind the right side bell housing. So it didn't fit anywhere near close, used the 4l60 tube after all, oh well, I'm over it.
Then I had to put the filter brace on one of the valve body bolts, easy and done. The filter extension into the pump however is a different story. I had too take the seal off the filter, install it in the tube, it would only go in a little, then I installed the both of them into the case and when I pushed them in, the filter snapped into place in the extension which it would not do any other time. So I guess it's really not hard, I just had to figure out the best order in which to assemble them.
GM filter.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160919/0d199a25ac12d803f6268ebb7dbd59a1.jpg)
New pan.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160919/891dc2a360ea587224c4148c210009d7.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160919/1d00c2307c629705dba5a2723503d504.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160919/8d71cb0567a6250421d12d4e6ab6fbfe.jpg)
New cover.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160919/acd3444c2e273001d0cb485feb614b17.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160919/e365280118333eede7bcf6153094005f.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160919/f508301eecabebffb2434f1876f20543.jpg)
So both got painted, but not just paint, much better than paint, it's BED LINER! The pan came out great! The cover, not so much. The bed liner wouldn't stick to the aluminum, I cleaned it off and tried again with self etching primer, got the exact same result. The only thing I can guess makes a difference is that it's a polished surface, it stuck to the cast pan no problem and this stuff usually sticks to EVERYTHING.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160920/6a9d841f02d4c82f550f017304324168.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160920/261c1a767c92aa53458582e32ecc316f.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160920/b36af390fbf4ef7a9b96771cb9cddd7a.jpg)
This looks like poop. My girlfriend was annoyed because she spent time taping off the cover again for the second try with primer and it still didn't work.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160920/c7bffa695bee0d6bb904bb7272df7e06.jpg)
Primer.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160920/e15229b1e3f3e1febc3e227edd6d3e2d.jpg)
Also got that new PDQ converter.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160920/6e0aaf708f35775d9d21aa6174d5da94.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160920/1a0fd7b3d113874f4394da309b8f03bd.jpg)
This Lube Locker gasket was really nice.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160920/97e0bc642d70f581e72c6b81967a7f4d.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160920/867ecf59f088036839035b0131c32a0c.jpg)
A pic of the pan installed. I did have to buy a 12 point 3/8 drive 8mm socket for the pan bolts. It worked fine but it's tight squeeze next to the pan walls, I may pick up a 1/4 drive socket when my first service rolls around. That's like 25K miles out tho.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160920/26b62eb21799873029b19a022bcba645.jpg)
I like look, with the black fins, 12 point bolts. I'll post a pick tomorrow when I finish the install of the other side where the sensor is.
That's all for now.
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Truck is running, transmission is working good so far as I can tell. Drove it with the tech, he's happy with it too.
Here's the last of the pics.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160925/08e68568e11b20eef53a1a87ed5ffd00.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160925/0342c1b6174d600102edae63c6410f0e.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160925/e84dc8a8a8535a5ac1b4ab521996306a.jpg)
I just found out today that my coolant is mixing with the oil, I suspect either a blown intake or head gasket. So on Wednesday I'm going to rip it apart and try to get it fixed quick. I've done that type of job quite a few times before. Figures with this thing, soon as I get one thing fixed, something else goes wrong and something always goes wrong right after I put a fresh tank of fuel in. Sometimes I don't know about this freaking truck... oh well, gotta get it done.
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All of the transmission work looks bomb. You did good! Sorry to hear about the new problem. You know, the only reason it breaks is because you have too much attention on it, and it knows it. It's like a pet that wants attention....
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All of the transmission work looks bomb. You did good! Sorry to hear about the new problem. You know, the only reason it breaks is because you have too much attention on it, and it knows it. It's like a pet that wants attention....
Correct! And thanks! But I also have bills and I'm trying to get a new job so it needs to behave and not be a PITA. Lol
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Is the converter dust cover a TransDapt?
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No, it's a CAL Customs from Summit. It's actually for a 350 but I saw a review that said some guy put it on his early model 700. My old steel cover was from my 350 so I was pretty sure it would fit on the 4l60. The edges that face the trans pan on the bottom mounting tabs were tad too thick so a quick, light pass on the grinders fine wheel fixed that it fits like a glove now. I actually wish it was cast looking like the pan but it adds contrast and is kinda growing on me. It does look good.
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The tranny looks great.
Hopefully you get the motor straightened out soon.
You mentioned in Irish alleys post about wanting a diesel. Will this turn into a duramax swap?
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The tranny looks great.
Hopefully you get the motor straightened out soon.
You mentioned in Irish alleys post about wanting a diesel. Will this turn into a duramax swap?
Thanks. I should have the fluid mix fixed shortly. HA! I wish. Looking back now, the money I've put into this power train very well would have covered a D-max swap but I didn't want diesel then, I wish someone would have talked me into it? So for now, it will remain a gas truck. One day tho, when I have a good paying job and a new DD truck, this one will be stripped down and I'll spend a few years restoring it and then it WILL get a D-max. I had a chance at a 06-07 2500 HD, pretty much all stock, 4x4, 6.0L/4L80E, was a trade in at work, I could have picked it up but they over paid by 5 grand so it ended up being 5 grand more than I wanted to pay, if it was 10K, I would have picked it up as my new DD. It had a bad front cover and oil pan leak, I could have paid a tech on the side or done it myself and get it resealed, would have been a good truck, only had 88K miles on it. Oh well.
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Well I'm gonna just come out and say it, no point in beating around the bush. I'm about 99.9% sure the whole intake job I just did was a waste of time, I'm pretty curtain, I got a blown head gasket. Got the truck all back together, no issues, did 2 oil changes to clean out the coolant. Topped off the coolant with new, set my timing, oil started looking cleaner. Drove it around for about 15 min, on the last leg home, I noticed it was smoking and starting to get pretty warm. Got home, smokes like a freight train when revved, plumes smoke, smells sweet and coolant level keeps going up and down. Craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap. I found ample evidence to support the intake gasket blew out and that was the cause of the mix. No smoking or any anything before, I should have spent an extra hour and just pulled the heads, so stupid. I'm more mad I didn't just go ahead and pull them than I am that I actually have blown head gaskets. I feel like a dummy. Lol
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that sucks
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that sucks
Tell me about it.
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Sorry to hear that. Most of us have been there at one time or another. Before tearing it down, confirm your suspicion by pressurizing the cooling system with the spark plugs removed and cranking the engine to see which cylinder(s) pump coolant. You can also remove the headers and inspect the exhaust ports with the cooling system pressurized. In addition, perform a compression test and/or cylinder leak-down test. Collect as much diagnostic data as you can while it's still together.
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I plan on doing a block test to see if there are exhaust gases in the cooling system and I'm going to use my boroscope to look inside the cylinders with spark plugs out and crank if over with the plugs out too. I know for sure it's the passenger side. Zero smoke from left exhaust, I have dual exhaust with no crossover so each side is independent of the other.
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Unless you baked it, don't waste your time, just pull the heads.
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Unless you baked it, don't waste your time, just pull the heads.
Already done.