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73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Engine/Drivetrain => Topic started by: plik on December 17, 2016, 10:47:48 am

Title: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: plik on December 17, 2016, 10:47:48 am
I have a 1984 Chevy Suburban. It stared off in life as a 6.2 diesel, but now has a 5.7 (gas) TBI. The engine switch was done by the man I bought it from, so I don't know where the engine came from.

Emissions inspection: failed, told I need an air pump.

I've owned this suburban for five years and passed emissions every year. I've never been told I need an air pump until now.

According to their book, a 1984 engine 5.7 is supposed to have an air pump. The engine I have now is newer -- TBI was introduced in 1989. They wouldn't accept my logic, but I could get an exception waiver from the main office in Phoenix. I head down and try to explain that my engine doesn't need an air pump since the engine is newer, has TBI, and the cats are brand new. The man looks at and says, "It looks like a light duty engine. The EPA does not allow you to have a light duty engine in a heavy duty truck."

Emissions inspection: failed, and told I must replace the engine.

Now I don't know what to do. :-(
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: Irish_Alley on December 17, 2016, 11:10:35 am
whats light duty about it? my 91 v3500 crew cab had a tbi 350. granted it had a cat but only since it was a cali truck.
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: plik on December 17, 2016, 11:27:47 am
whats light duty about it? my 91 v3500 crew cab had a tbi 350. granted it had a cat but only since it was a cali truck.

I asked him about that, but he couldn't tell me specifics. That was the most frustrating thing -- nothing helpful, no useful information, and complete lack of compassion.

Anyway, he said heavy duty engines don't use oxygen sensors (which mine has). However, the ECM on it is from a universal ECM kit for TBI (both light duty and heavy duty engines). Since it has a wire for an oxygen sensor, one was put on -- it's custom fitted to the exhaust pipe. I mean, I had the shop (that installed my new cats) weld an O2 sensor bolt on the pipe because I thought it needed an O2 sensor (because there's a wire for it on the ECM wiring harness).

I also tried to explain all that, but he said I have to prove it is a heavy duty engine. :-(

Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: zieg85 on December 17, 2016, 11:35:44 am
Thanks for sharing, I feel your pain.  I really want to retire to AZ but it sure won't be where there are emission testing.  Fact is it has passed before and being a TBI the emissions are much cleaner than it would have been if original.  I am would venture to say you just need to find the right person to present the facts to.  If the actual emissions pass for the levels allowed for said vehicle and it has the catalytic convertor present, that should over ride any visual inspection.
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: Stewart G Griffin on December 17, 2016, 11:38:42 am
What's the gvwr on the truck?

How are they determining what's a "light duty" engine and a "heavy duty" engine?

May have to get a lawyer..........
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: Irish_Alley on December 17, 2016, 12:07:31 pm
i dont think that an O2 determines the duty of the truck. i would find info on our trucks from California from 87-95 (afaik 95 is the last year for the tbi)
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: Irish_Alley on December 17, 2016, 12:10:48 pm
but this is usually the complete opposite of what we face. most times they want stricter emissions
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: roundhouse on December 17, 2016, 12:14:00 pm
I'd go to  different inspection station

It's not up to you to prove you have a light duty engine

They need to provide a reason , in writing , why you didn't pass

Or you could slap on an air pump to pass

They didn't give you any static for it having been switched from diesel to gas ?

I know people who have built hot rod pickups and they got diesel ones that are exempt from the test so they could swap in whatever gas engine they wanted and never had to have it tested

I will never buy another vehicle that has to meet a smog inspection

Entirely too much trouble


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: plik on December 17, 2016, 03:08:39 pm
but this is usually the complete opposite of what we face. most times they want stricter emissions

Right?!

I even asked him that, "So, a light duty engine can't go in a heavy duty truck, even if it produces less emissions? Why?" He had no answer, other than that's what the EPA says.

I keep thinking, "We're from the government, we're here to help."
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: plik on December 17, 2016, 03:13:05 pm

How are they determining what's a "light duty" engine and a "heavy duty" engine?


Two things:
- Indicators, like having an O2 sensor
- An inherent cruelty in the small man who inspects engines
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: plik on December 17, 2016, 03:19:55 pm
I'd go to  different inspection station

It's not up to you to prove you have a light duty engine

They need to provide a reason , in writing , why you didn't pass

Or you could slap on an air pump to pass

They didn't give you any static for it having been switched from diesel to gas ?

I know people who have built hot rod pickups and they got diesel ones that are exempt from the test so they could swap in whatever gas engine they wanted and never had to have it tested

I will never buy another vehicle that has to meet a smog inspection

Entirely too much trouble


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I can't just go to a different station, they're all networked together. And I've already exhausted all of my appeal options, so I can't speak to someone's manager, or anything like that. I mean, I already have.

He said it's fine if you go from gas to diesel or diesel to gas. You just can't go from light duty to heavy duty, or (as in my case) go from heavy duty to light duty.

I might still have a heavy duty engine, I just need to prove it. :-(

I'm trying to get to the engine cast numbers, but am having a lot of trouble seeing them.
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: VileZambonie on December 17, 2016, 03:40:21 pm
Can't you just get it tested somewhere else? This guy is just being difficult.
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: plik on December 17, 2016, 05:25:21 pm
Can't you just get it tested somewhere else? This guy is just being difficult.

Sadly, no. The testing centers share a central database.
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: VileZambonie on December 17, 2016, 05:46:03 pm
Yeah but is the database the issue or is it the goofball you dealt with?
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: Stewart G Griffin on December 17, 2016, 07:16:35 pm
A suburban is a heavy duty truck?   Says who?   Arizona?
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: Irish_Alley on December 17, 2016, 09:57:37 pm
stew maybe the gvwr. dont think it ever went to 1 ton but know they made a ¾ ton it was around 8000 gvwr
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: plik on December 17, 2016, 10:10:43 pm
stew maybe the gvwr. dont think it ever went to 1 ton but know they made a ¾ ton it was around 8000 gvwr

Yes, I think it's the difference between the 3/4 ton and 1/2 ton, and 1500 and 2500 models (I think, I'm still not sure).

Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: plik on December 17, 2016, 10:11:29 pm
Yeah but is the database the issue or is it the goofball you dealt with?

I meant I can't go to another location because the top guy already put his notes into the database. So, if I roll into any location, they'll see that I've already been to the main office and the top guy gave it a failure.

So, I either have to modify my vehicle to his satisfaction, or another option is to get a class 3 inspection and have the vehicle re-titled as a modified car (like you would with a hot rod). This I just found out about earlier today.
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: Stewart G Griffin on December 18, 2016, 07:48:02 am
stew maybe the gvwr. dont think it ever went to 1 ton but know they made a ¾ ton it was around 8000 gvwr

Right, but i mean how is AZ defining heavy duty?    i thought like tractor-trailer = heavy duty,  box trucks = medium duty,  pickups, vans= light duty etc.

Now, if they mean 8600lbs. gvwr and above is "heavy duty,"  then it maybe easiest to just remove the O2 sensor---it's not that difficult.

If they're defining "light duty engine" as having an O2 sensor (as if this guy is an expert on SBC's and really is there such thing as a "heavy duty" sbc?   4 bolt mains don't count), then i guess just go along with the game and remove it.
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: Joec123able on December 18, 2016, 07:50:30 am
The only thing I love about iowa, no inspections.
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: Irish_Alley on December 18, 2016, 08:40:20 am
the only weight im seeing in AZ is 8500. and it doesnt make a difference if its over or under it still has emissions. if its over its every year and under its every other year.
OP take a read back in 2010 someone had the same issue as you. could only swap with the same year or you "violated" laws and no tag for them
https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/update-az-engine-swaps-ouch.387955/
the big boss had no idea what his indians were doing


also talk to this company
http://www.phoenixengine.com/Chevy-16.html
they build motors and are out of AZ they should know about any issues you may run into or loopholes


and a quote from here (http://www.thirdgen.org/forums/south-west-region/615085-phoenix-emissions-passed-reference.html)

Quote
You can have no emissions equipment on your car in Phoenix and still get registration. Get collector car insurance (very cheap ~$350/yr) on your car and you no longer need emissions and can get 5 year tags (~$80). My car has no charcoal canister, no smog pump, no EGR, long tubes, no cats, and its no problem.
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: AZ4X4SQBDY on December 18, 2016, 08:58:36 am
I found this out there

http://www.73-87.com/7387info/7387emislevel.htm

it's saying the truck should not have cats if it's over 8600 GVW and this is what defines "heavy duty".

???

Is your truck 8600 GVW or more?

I don't think the guy is trying to be difficult, just put yourself in his shoes and think about how many cobbled together vehicles come through his place everyday. He is just doing it by the book.  The one thing I noticed about the company that is running the program here in Phoenix is they will not tell you how to correct the issue, they will only provide a list of garages that will perform the repairs. They are just covering their rears.

I recently sold a '87 Chevy truck that required a emissions test before I could sell it. The truck failed the evaporative portion of the test so I ran it home, dropped the tank and changed out all the rubber fuel lines and took it back there 5 hours later. They asked what I did to correct it, I explained and for some reason he seemed amazed. They re ran the test, it passed, met the buyer at the title place and down the road it went.
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: Irish_Alley on December 18, 2016, 09:04:49 am
turck should have cats if it was a diesel. but with the motor swap i think you have to pass for that motor (hence failing for no air pump). or people who swap diesels for gas motors would never pass
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: plik on December 18, 2016, 07:47:22 pm
Would a heavy duty truck in 1987 have an air pump?

And if so, how can I prove it?
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: AZ4X4SQBDY on December 18, 2016, 08:16:18 pm
Would a heavy duty truck in 1987 have an air pump?

And if so, how can I prove it?

I would believe so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_air_injection

To prove it, I guess you could show him the vin on the block with the original vehicles vin number and then break it down for him show when it was built.

To get this guy off your back and your truck legal, it needs an air pump with exhaust manifolds and no catalytic converters. If it had the air pump, you could argue that you went the extra effort and installed new catalytic converters but with out the air pump they will not work efficiently. The converters do not take the place of an air pump and do not do the same job.

I have a 1985 Chevy K10 in my signature that I'm building. It came out of Colorado and was not emission compliant there because they put a cam, headers, wrong intake and carb, no EGR, etc. I bought a complete 1987 C10 with a factory 5.7 TBI, dual tanks and factory exhaust system with a cat to swap into the truck to get it though the emissions. I feel I will not have an issue but in reading this thread I have my doubts.  When I first bought it and learned all about the local Phoenix emissions program it ended up with historic plates and classic insurance. I figured it should have been exempted because of age but apparently not. They are tough around here.
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: csdineley on December 18, 2016, 10:15:04 pm
Would a heavy duty truck in 1987 have an air pump?

And if so, how can I prove it?

Here's the emission sticker from my 87 R20 c6p 350 tbi 8600 GVW
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: plik on December 19, 2016, 12:45:33 am
Would a heavy duty truck in 1987 have an air pump?

And if so, how can I prove it?

Here's the emission sticker from my 87 R20 c6p 350 tbi 8600 GVW

Thank you so much. This is tremendously helpful.  ;D
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: ehjorten on December 19, 2016, 02:28:14 pm
Here is a breakdown:
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/data/10380 (http://www.afdc.energy.gov/data/10380)

And did I miss what version of Suburban you have?  Is it a C10, K10, C20 or K20?  If the GVWR is 8,501 to 10,000 it is considered to be a class 2b heavy duty vehicle.

I feel reasonably certain that a C20 or K20 was offered in 1984 with a 350, 454 or the 6.2L Diesel!

The 305 was the one that wasn't offered with the 3/4 ton, so their contention that the 350 is a light-duty engine is false!
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: Irish_Alley on December 19, 2016, 04:57:43 pm
His gvwr is 8600. I have a 350 in my 9600. I just don't know and I think the question is did the "HD" motor have emissions and if they didn't like the station is saying then why does he have an o2 sensor
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: plik on December 20, 2016, 11:42:44 am
UPDATE:

I found out that my engine is a "heavy duty" engine. :-) The small, petty man at the emissions testing facility was wrong after all. He said it was light duty because of the O2 sensor, etc. -- wrong; heavy duty engines can be configured with an O2 sensor, etc.

The only differences are compression ratios and bolts on main.

LD: 2-bolt main, 9.25:1 Compression ratio
HD: 4-bolt main, 8.75:1 Compression ratio

http://paceperformance.com/i-6485019-12568758-5-7l-350cid-lo5-k-1987-1995-chevy-gmc-full-size-trucks-g-van-up-to-7200-gvw.html
http://paceperformance.com/i-6484911-12520270-5-7l-350cid-lo5-k-1987-1995-chevy-gmc-full-size-trucks-g-van-1996-2002-p-van-over-8600-gvw.html

Thanks to everyone for all your help. It is much appreciated. :-)
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: Stewart G Griffin on December 21, 2016, 06:12:00 am
Where, and/or how does GM, Arizona, of the Federal gov't define what is a "heavy duty" engine and a "light duty" engine?

i still feel 2 bolt main vs. 4 bolt main has nothing to do with heavy duty or light duty even though yes 4 bolts is more 'heavy duty" than a 2 bolt.  But in this case it was GM that "thought" 4 bolt mains is more heavy duty than 2 bolts.  What if the 4 bolt main 350 never existed?

the LT9 (4 bolt main) 350 was available in 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton and 1 ton for 86.
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: ehjorten on December 21, 2016, 08:50:21 am
Do you have one of those unfortunate SBC casting numbers that is only a 2 bolt main block?  Most 350 casting numbers of that era could have been either 2 or 4 bolt, so how does the emissions guy even know?  Secondly...how does he know what compression ratio you are running?
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: Engineer on December 21, 2016, 10:11:36 pm
Your government functionary is an idiot.

My 1994 K2500 C6P (8600# GVWR) has an O2 sensor. My 2002 K2500HD 8.1L has O2 sensors. My wife's 2001 K2500HD 6.0L has O2 sensors. My stuff all fits in the heavy duty category. Just sayin'.
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: plik on December 21, 2016, 10:27:59 pm
Your government functionary is an idiot.

My 1994 K2500 C6P (8600# GVWR) has an O2 sensor. My 2002 K2500HD 8.1L has O2 sensors. My wife's 2001 K2500HD 6.0L has O2 sensors. My stuff all fits in the heavy duty category. Just sayin'.

Does your engine have an air pump?
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: hatzie on December 22, 2016, 12:27:36 am
I'd still like to know what your DLFs source of information is.
Can you get a copy of paperwork that tells EXACTLY, according to them, what is expected to be present on your machine or is your DLF pulling it out of the air.
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: plik on December 22, 2016, 12:58:59 am
I'd still like to know what your DLFs source of information is.
Can you get a copy of paperwork that tells EXACTLY, according to them, what is expected to be present on your machine or is your DLF pulling it out of the air.

It was purely out of the air. He simply looked at my engine and said, "That looks like a light-duty engine." I asked him what about it makes it light duty. He tried to tell me that heavy-duty engines don't use 02 sensors (not true, as it turns out). He said heavy duty trucks didn't use air pumps ... which is odd because my missing air pump is what made me fail the test at the first testing center (according to their book which listed my heavy-duty suburban as requiring an air pump). I asked him what the difference was between heavy duty and light duty engines. He said, "That's how their certified." And I tried to ask for specifics -- measurable specifics, but he didn't know.

It was frustrating. My young son was with me, or else I would have really yelled at him. And he was so condescending about it all. It really took a lot of inner strength not to yell at him.

So, ya, the small, petty man simply pulled that little diagnosis right out of the air.

Sadly, he was the last stop of a short line of appeal options. So, I can't go over him in any way -- he is the top guy. The king of a very small kingdom.

And the paperwork now says just what he typed, "Visual inspection failed. EPA does not allow light-duty engines in heavy-duty vehicles."

I'll post links to each to show you the comparison between light duty and heavy duty: 

http://paceperformance.com/i-6485019-12568758-5-7l-350cid-lo5-k-1987-1995-chevy-gmc-full-size-trucks-g-van-up-to-7200-gvw.html
http://paceperformance.com/i-6484911-12520270-5-7l-350cid-lo5-k-1987-1995-chevy-gmc-full-size-trucks-g-van-1996-2002-p-van-over-8600-gvw.html

See how their identical in every visual way.
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: Irish_Alley on December 22, 2016, 03:32:50 pm
i wouldnt go in there and say "youre wrong about it needing a O2 sensor, but youre right because its only a 2 bolt main." they have to prove to you as to why its a light duty, by a visual test not taking the oil pan off. like i said before my 91 v3500 9600 gvwr tbi 350 had an O2 and no air pump. i have to double check but im almost sure my engine only had an O2 sensor (and a cat) with cali emissions
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: Irish_Alley on December 22, 2016, 06:30:04 pm
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/documents/engswitch_0.pdf
EPA received many questions regarding the application of this law to a situation where one engine is
removed from a vehicle and another engine is installed in its place. EPA's policy regarding "engine
switching" is covered under the provisions of Mobile Source Enforcement Memorandum No. lA
(Attachment 1). This policy states that EPA will not consider any modification to a "certified
configuration" to be a violation of federal law if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions
are not adversely affected. In many cases, proper emission testing according to the Federal Test
Procedure would be necessary to make this determination.

A "certified configuration" is an engine or engine chassis design which has been "certified" (approved)
by EPA prior to the production of vehicles with that design. Generally, the manufacturer submits an
application for certification of the designs of each engine or vehicle it proposes to manufacture prior to
production. The applicaion includest design requirements for all emission related parts, engine
calibrations, and other design parameters for each different type of engine (in heavy-duty vehicles), or
engine chassis combination (in light-duty vehicles). EPA then "certifies" each acceptable design for use,
in vehicles of the upcoming model year.


For light-duty vehicles, installation of a light-duty eng~ne into a different light-duty vehicle by any
person would be considered tampering unless the resulting vehicle is identical (with regard to all
emission related parts, engine design parameters, and engine calibrations) to a certified configuration of
the same or newer model year as the vehicle chassis, or if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that
emissions are not adversely affected as described in Memo 1A. The appropriate source for technical
information regarding the certified configuration of a vehicle of a particular model year is the vehicle
manufacturer.

For heavy-duty vehicles, the resulting vehicle must contain a heavy-duty engine which is identical to a
certified configura- tion of a heavy-duty engine of the same model year or newer as the year of the
installed engine. Under no circumstances, however, may a heavy-duty engine ever be installed in a
light-duty vehicle.


(The is important, your emissions can match the same year or NEWER) my understanding is if you have a "heavy duty" ecm from a tbi heavy duty motor then you should be ok. I would contact your state's Attorney General's office to see what they say. if they really want to argue that your ecm isnt for a heavy duty engine go get one from a junk yard from a 87  with GVWR of 8501+.

The most common engine replacement involves replacing a gasoline engine in a light-duty vehicle with
another gasoline engine. Another type of engine switching which commonly occurs, however, involves
diesel powered vehicles where the diesel engine is removed and replaced with a gasoline engine.
Applying the above policy, such a replacement is legal only if the resulting engine-chassis configuration
is equivalent to a certified configuration of the same model year or newer as the chassis. If the vehicle
chassis in question has been certified with gasoline, as well as diesel engines(as is common), such a
conversion could be done legally.



B. State Laws
Many states also have statutes or regulations prohibiting tampering in general. Most of these laws
specifically prohibit tampering by individuals. A few specifically prohibit engine switching, using
provisions similar to those stated in EPA's policy. To determine the state law in any given state, the
state's Attorney General's office should be contacted. In addition, many states have state or local
antitampering inspection programs which require a periodic inspection of vehicles in that area, to
determine the integrity of emission control systems. Many programs have established policies for
vehicles which have been engine switched. While EPA does not require these programs to fail engine
switched vehicles which are not in compliance with federal policy, the Agency does strongly
recommend that these programs set their requirements so as to be consistent with the federal law. State
or local programs which pass illegally engine switched vehicles may mislead federally regulated parties
into believing that engine switching is allowed by federal law.

Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: philo_beddoe on December 22, 2016, 10:32:32 pm
No state should have emissions on a vehicle that old. Here in MA, 15 years or older-no emissions.
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: Engineer on December 22, 2016, 11:05:25 pm
Your government functionary is an idiot.

My 1994 K2500 C6P (8600# GVWR) has an O2 sensor. My 2002 K2500HD 8.1L has O2 sensors. My wife's 2001 K2500HD 6.0L has O2 sensors. My stuff all fits in the heavy duty category. Just sayin'.

Does your engine have an air pump?

Nope.
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: Irish_Alley on December 23, 2016, 01:04:23 am
my 94 c1500 tbi 4.3 doesnt have an air pump
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: plik on December 23, 2016, 01:34:52 pm
Thank you so much, everyone. Your help has been tremendous.

Honestly, I was terribly depressed about this at first (thinking I needed to replace the engine), but everyone's help has given me hope and reassurance. :-)
Title: Re: I failed emissions and told I have an ILLEGAL engine
Post by: Stewart G Griffin on December 24, 2016, 09:14:15 am
i just talked to my friend in AZ and another thing you could do is register it in another county........say Coconino----no emissions inspections.