73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Brakes, Frame, Steering & Suspension => Topic started by: Ozark on December 10, 2018, 05:46:01 pm
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So I'd been tracking down an issue with wobble once my truck reaches ~45, and at first I was thinking the harmonic balancer, but today I got under there and gave a tug on the tie rod and it looks like it's been through all kinds of abuse. I haven't worked on any steering/suspension before.
Check out the vid and some pics I got. Bent up like she ran over a massive buck or something.
https://youtu.be/JAEF2Hemad4
https://imgur.com/a/jJFjybA
So a few questions. What am I looking for in terms of parts? I'm looking at:
(RH tie rod) Moog ES2234R https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C57VGO
(LH tie rod, seems to include the 52" bar) Moog DS893 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C55VUW
But I'm wondering if also want one or more adjuster sleeves even though my old setup doesn't have one. DS893 seems to want to go all the way across and mate with the RH end, but I assume one sleeve could go in between them.
My plan is just to get em on there well enough to limp to the alignment shop, but if the adjuster sleeve makes the alignment job easier all the better. This looks like a good candidate https://www.amazon.com/Moog-ES362S-Tie-Adjusting-Sleeve/dp/B000C57WMW
I'm thinking I would try to measure and match the old tie rod, but then the question is whether I should go for it in its bent state or try to eyeball/guess the length while it was straightened out.
Last question, as you can see in the vid these were previously mounted on the underside of the eye. Most of what I've seen on youtube show the tie rod ends above the eye. Which way should I go with it?
Thanks in advance!
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So apparently they make 1" and 7/8" threads versions on these. I ended up ordering ES2011R which matches the 1" of DS893, but I'm a still a bit confused about the adjusting sleeve. ES362S says it's 7/8" and I couldn't find a 1", so I'm wondering if it's just compatible by virtue of the pipe being split open down the length of it.
I also found some videos about using a taught length of string to match alignment of back wheels. I'll probably try that instead of matching the busted part.
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AC Delco 45A6011 is 1" - 18 threads.
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GM changed the design of the tie rods over the years, so I would just get the right one for your truck.
My '75 K25 has long and short tie rods, an adjusting sleeve between them, and the long tie rod has a mounting eye for a steering stabilizer. However, there are at least two other variations that were used on later trucks, including the type you have that does not have an adjusting sleeve. I guess you just screw the tie rods in and out to make the adjustment.
When I installed my new tie rods I just matched the assemly up side by side and made it all the same length. It works well and the truck tracks fine. New tie rods will almost completely remove the play you have now at the ends.
The next job to consider is ball joints, and that is a much more time consuming job. I did it last year, and used 2-3 different Youtube videos to get the description of how to do it. The only real problem I had was that it was very cold outside, which made the wheel bearing grease tough to work with. The grease set up in the cold and got so stringy that it stuck to everything.
Bruce
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Thanks a ton, guys.
@ehjorten you are definitely correct and the sleeve I had was too small. FWIW I ended up at NAPA and they're selling these parts with the same numbers (I don't know if they're genuine Moog or not) but I matched them before leaving and found the sleeve I needed from this manufacturer was ES2012S, same 1"-18 dimensions as that AC Delco part.
I've got it all mounted up but now I have to wait for my steering damper. I think the old damper probably had some more life in it, but the hardware holding it all together was well rusted to the LH tie rod end so I've got a Rough Country 8732530 on the way.
@75gmck25 this seems like the same design as yours, with the sleeve. I would say the whole assembly is probably twice the weight of the one I just pulled though. That probably explains the deformation. Do you think the string method for the alignment is good enough or do you take it in for them to do with laser? You got me scared of doing the ball joints now but I know it needs them too. Fortunately I've been keeping on top of the cleanup so the wife hasn't kicked me out of the garage yet!
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just something to think about nothing will just start moving at a certain speed without energy. what i mean by that is i don't see a tie rod causing a vibration. a worn tie rod will more than likely cause odd tire wear. if you're getting a vibration its probably coming from something spinning (i.e. engine, trans, tire, rotor, drums, driveshafts and i might be missing a few) but it does sound like your tie rods are bad so its probably good to change them and you could inadvertently correct the issue like tightening a loose bolt or something
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Thanks for the advice and the heads up! I will definitely temper my expectations for my test drive after I get it all reassembled when then new part arrives tomorrow.
The engine seems pretty happy in park and neutral at full throttle. I did have a problem with a sticky LH rear wheel after applying parking brake. Also, a severe screeching that I had attributed (perhaps wrongly) to the bearings in the blower motor. Possibly the bearings on that wheel? The wheel seemed to unstick after I gave it a simultaneous pull on the release lever with one hand and reaching under the cab and yanking on the cable with the other hand.
A full brake job is probably in order anyway. And if not any of that, well the transmission was behaving funny getting into gear before the new vacuum modulator so that's definitely suspect too.
I wanted a project and I sure got one, eh?
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does it go away after a certain speed?
dos it get better or worse when you apply the brakes?
what shape are your tires in?
are your tires missing any weights?
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If you mean the wobble/vibration, the wobble starts in at around 45mph and I've only taken it up to about 60, but the wobble persisted throughout. I updated the imgur album with pics of the Chinese tires: https://imgur.com/a/jJFjybA - I assume the clip with the "1.0 P 28" marking is the weight? If so each tire has a similar attached weight.
No immediate change with application of the brakes, but when I decelerate and reach 30ish the wobble backs off. Zero wobble under that speed. I'll try and get some video of it in action.
If you meant the screech I mentioned in my last post, the screech quit immediately when I turned the heater off which is why I had the bearings on that motor pegged.
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there should/might be more than one weight (inside and outside) of the wheels. you might have to take the trim rings off the outside. but tread pattern could cause a wobble, does it change any depending on the road surface or turning?
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When I've had problems with a low/moderate speed wobble in the steering, it usually turned out to be belts in the tires that have broken loose. In one case it was a rear tire (cheap tires) and you could feel it pull the rear end back and forth at low speeds. You might try swapping tires from front to rear to see if that fixes the wobble.
Don't be afraid of the ball joint work, just plan to spend some time on it. I purchased an electric impact wrench to speed up the disassembly, but borrowed all the other special tools from Autozone. Take pictures along the way so you can remember how various parts go back together, and only take one side apart at a time so you can make comparisons. The one item that is really tough to get off (lots of banging with a hammer) is the steering arm, and it has special retainers that look like washers under the nuts. The retainers are actually a cone-shaped piece that recessses into the hole and also acts as a washer.
You will find there are multiple seals to replace, and trying to get the parts guy to find the right one will be frustrating. I had to make a couple trips to the store after they sold me the wrong seals the first time. You also have an opportunity to look at brake pads, discs, bearings and other parts while you have it apart. I ended up only servicing and replacing brake pads, but tried to do a good inspection of wear on other parts.
Bruce
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Just a quick update: Amazon delayed my steering stabilizer so I didn't get everything back together until yesterday. She's driving a lot better now and the original wobble is gone (the one that started at speed), but it's pretty shaky when I apply brakes -- I'm guessing I had two separate issues going on.. I'm thinking I'll start with the rear shoes and bearings and then tackle the front and ball joints after that. I think mine is rear drum brakes and front disc? Let me know if anyone has any pointers or videos/parts!
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The most common repair for braking vibration would be to have the discs and/or drums turned by a machine shop to even them out, and then put on new brake pads. The machine shop should have the specs on how thin they can be before replacement, or you might just look for a good price on new discs and drums.
The discs will have to come off for the ball joint replacement, so you might just wait until then to get the front brake work done.
Since you have a K10, rear brake drums are also easy to remove if you just make sure the park brake is fully released. It might take a little light hammering to break the drum loose from the wheel studs, but that's usually just rust holding it on. In a few cases there may be slip-on retainer clips over the wheel studs, but they just pull off with a pliers.
Inside the drums you will find the brake shoes and the wheel cylinders. Take a very close look at the wheel cylinders for any leakage, since that is also a common problem. If you open it up to do new brake shoes and turn the drums, I'd consider replacing the wheel cylinders also. The only downside is that you will have to bleed the brakes if you replace the cylinders.
Also take a close look for big cracks or any bulging in the flexible brake lines that run from the axle over to the wheel cylinders. As they get older, the flexible lines may soften and bulge under pressure, and when they bulge you are losing brake pressure every time you step on the pedal.
Bruce
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Thanks Bruce! I captured a bit of video if you'd like to see what I'm seeing inside the drums. I'm a bit perplexed why things are looking so different between the two -- I think it may indicate that the LH side is the only one doing all the braking (no dust on the RH side).
Clips of the drums:
https://youtu.be/Nrc-lhrp5nM (https://youtu.be/Nrc-lhrp5nM)
https://youtu.be/U63hCqwiiMY (https://youtu.be/U63hCqwiiMY)
One question I have is how to pop the seal to get to the bearings if I want to change them out. And I think there's a spindle nut socket I may need but I'm not sure where to look to find the size I might need?
Also when I give the wheels a spin my gut tells me they're not spinning as freely as they ought to be, but I don't have a point of comparison. Finally, I'm looking at the bottom of the rear differential plate https://imgur.com/60mU5rd (https://imgur.com/60mU5rd) and wondering, what could cause that discoloration? Ongoing leak or just from the last time the fluid was changed?
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Does your emergency brake work, and do you use it? IIRC, the rear brakes have a ratcheting mechanism that self-adjusts each time you use the emergency brake. If its not pulling the cables right you may not be getting the right adjustment on each side, which would leave one side looser than the other.
Bruce
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So the way that the self-adjuster works is that when you back-up it ratchets and adjusts the brakes. Because it looks like you have new brake hardware, at least on the RH side, the first thing that I would check to see is if the adjuster arm is properly engaging the star-wheel! I have found on replacement hardware kits, that sometimes the adjuster arm is not formed properly and does not engage the star wheel correctly. What this causes is that the brakes do not self adjust!
How you would check is with the drum off, see if you can hand spin the star wheel. One way it should ratchet on the adjuster arm and you will hear a positive "click-click-click". The other way, it should be impossible to rotate unless you pull the adjuster arm away from the star wheel. In other words, the adjuster arm should prevent you from spinning the star wheel to "back-off" the adjuster, or collapse the star wheel screw so that the linings pull away from the drum. If the adjuster arm does not function in this manner, it will not self-adjust properly.
Also, in your video you ask what that slot in the drum is for. It should have a rubber plug in it, but that hole is there for you to reach into the brake drum, pull pack the adjuster arm away from the star wheel, and simultaneously rotate the star wheel to back off the shoes away from the drum, so that you can remove the drum to service the brakes! As the drum wears, it will get a lip on the inside of the drum that will prevent you from sliding the drum off, unless you collapse the shoes inward so that the lip will clear the shoes. Make sense?
They make a set of tools for working on drum brakes, that looks like 1) a hook, to pull the adjuster arm away from the star wheel, and 2) a funny looking curved tool with a flat blade on the end of it. That is used to rotate the star wheel. Most people like myself just use something with a hook on it and then a screwdriver to do it, but you have to visualize the mechanism inside the drum that you cannot see, and operate it while blind. Some brakes have the access slot on the drum and other have it in the backing plate. In the case where the slot is in the backing plate, you now don't hook the adjuster arm and pull it towards you, you have to just push it away from the star wheel.
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I was pretty sure the original wobble would go away with that much slop between the spindle assemblies.
Kind of like when your idler arm goes; you reach a certain speed range and the wobble starts.
At least that is out of the way!
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Hey guys, I appreciate all the replies! Checking back in to report I finally got the brake job done (new cylinders/hardware kits/shoes) as well as replaced the parking brake cables on both sides. Took me longer than planned with family/holidays.
She drives like a dream now! Onto the next project (there's no shortage of them) -- probably replacing seat springs and working on interior and wiring.
Thanks again!