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General Site Info => General Discussion => Topic started by: Irish_Alley on October 22, 2024, 12:39:34 am
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Hello old friends as some of you know i went through a hard spell a couple years ago with work, but i was doing "OK". long story short in march of this year i was in a very bad vehicle accident where the other guy crossed the double yellow and we ended on hitting head on. my 2010 chevy was totaled but she gave her life for me, i ended up with a broken femur, 6 broken ribs and a broken sternum. the other driver sadly didnt make it. anyway we been getting around in my wifes 94 single cab chevy truck and ive been looking for another vehicle and this is why im back lol. i still have most of my squares but im in no shape to fight/fix them. anyway
i just got a 2003 chevy 2500hd crew with 6.0 4l80e and it sometimes has a "no start" issue. it will crank over fine and start for only a second then dies, you have to unhook the battery for 45 minutes or so and it will start up. it also has a charging system issue and air bag light but im not sure if theyre connected. he also replaced the BCM and it did not fix the issue. ive heard of the 90s trucks having a VATS issue that sounds similar but im not sure and wanted to poke some minds on here for their opinions
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Glad you are on the mend. The way people drive now is absurd and disgusting. We have mass stupidity run amuck.
This platform of GM trucks are electrical hogs and require good clean electrical signals. Make sure your battery is good and fix your charging system issue. The grounding points are critical and must be clean and tight as well. Does it have the factory radio or aftermarket? Are the gauges working correctly? Does the scan tool communicate? Any codes?
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Glad to hear you are getting better. I have the same questions Vile has, does any codes show up?
I have seem some do this with a bad cam/crank sensor, but check for codes.
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I don't have a suggestion for you Tim, but I'm glad you're here to try to fix it! ;)
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Thanks for the warm welcome backs.
No codes that I saw in his video but if he did just reset the battery I would think it would wipe the codes. My scanner can read most codes and should be able to see both pending and permanent codes. But I haven't had a chance to even drive it yet. Buddy owns an auction and got it from there at 2.8k and going to try to pick it up today.
I was leaning towards the cam or crank sensor also on a whim. but I haven't had the chance to test anything yet. I'll be checking codes tonight and seeing if anything comes up and I'll be checking grounds and cleaning them up also
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talked to the guy more and he said it all started with a dead battery one day. he changed it and a few days later it was dead again. this led to an ecm change and a shade tree mechanic working on it. it was at least running at this time but still wasnt fixed. they changed the bcm and it still didnt fix anything.
i did ask if any sensors were replaced and he said none were.
it does have an after market radio that doesnt work. when the truck does screw up he has to do the 15 min key relearn 3x.
and it also it has a draw on the battery that will kill it in a few days.
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Hello Timmy. Welcome back. You've experienced quite the whirlwind! Life has a way of dropping marbles on your sidewalk. Watch your step!
Measure the draw with an ammeter. If it's greater than ~0.075 ampere, pop the fuses out one by one until the draw drops below the 75 milliamps threshold. That should help identify the offending circuit. Due to the onboard microprocessors the draw will never be eliminated.
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Remove the aftermarket radio and eliminate it from the equation.
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thanks buddy. i kept telling myself and others that my accident could be a lot worse and at least im able to feel pain. the worst part is the guy was driving his personal vehicle for his boss and his boss is a local that everyone knows. we were able get some info from mutual friends. but i guess it got back to him and next thing you know everyone stopped talking and the term "people are just sue happy" came up. im lucky years ago my mother in law had my wife on start farm insurance and thats who we kept along with their policy. we're going to end up going after my insurance policy to make up for lost wages and all that crap because the guy had such a crappy insurance policy. it wont be much in the end after getting a lawyer and paying off bills that have piled up. in the meantime his boss is just sitting fat still making money but i kind of hope karma comes around for him, not just for me but the other guy's family and his passenger. but anyway
got tags for the truck and brought it home, radio is dead and the fuse is good. unless they jumped something else but the truck doesnt look like its been messed with too much. the airbag light is on and for some reason i cant find my good scanner only my cheapo one that i lend out, so i can only read live data and engine codes. didnt get around to testing the draw on anything yet.
but i think it did act up and go into the "no start". it died within seconds of being restarted after getting home and tried to start it again and it did it died again. turned the key to "off" and pulled it out a little and tried again and it started right up. it did this a while later and after the first time i took the key out again and it started right up.
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BD and Vile, Vile didt see your post till now, but i removed the old radio and installed mine from my impala. everything worked "ok" except for the sound only playing on half the speakers and the radio doesnt turn off when any door is opened. this could be explain the battery drain, the dash does turn off on its own after a few seconds regardless of door position but if the radio is still on im sure the factory amp is still on.
Edit: also the dome lights dont come on either. if im not mistaking the radio should auto turn off after 15 minutes to save the battery so im going to have to see if that happens. and the power door lock doesnt work unless the key is on, the both key FOBs dont work either but that could be a transmitter problem with the batteries
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...This platform of GM trucks are electrical hogs and require good clean electrical signals. Make sure your battery is good and fix your charging system issue. The grounding points are critical and must be clean and tight as well...
This ^^^^^ is crucial to ALL electrical functions!
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also want to add the radio was installed both times by adapters to wire it directly to the factory radio harness. its been almost an hour and the radio still hasnt timed out. which im very confused about because even without the RAP working properly it should have killed the radio after 15 minutes
will be looking at the grounds here in a minute.
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ok me and the boy were out all day screwing with the truck. took a lot apart in the dash mainly to look at grounds, the inside ones look brand new. but while we were messing with it found the dome lights only come on if you open the door with the key in "ON" position, still wont kill the radio. key will also come out of the ignition with it in the on position and even with the engine running. so the door switch is working but the RAP isnt working properly. also unhook the BCM and it had no effect on the radio not sure if thats relevant or not. there is one braided ground going from the firewall to hood that MIA and the one going to the engine to the firewall has a hint of green to it. i didnt get under the truck to check on the frame grounds right under the driver seat but ill save that maybe till tomorrow.
the radio will stay on all the time unless you pull the fuse, if you reinstall the fuse the radio will stay off until you turn the ignition to "on"
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I would removed the radio and its power/ground connections going to it
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An old car I used to have had a worn down ignition key that would start the car and I could pull it out while it was running with that particular key. My other keys that were not worn down would not come out.
So, is your key heavily worn down?
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The fact that you can remove the key should tell you there is an issue going on there. The key sense wire that goes to the BCM is most likely not sending/receiving the proper signal. Swapping BCM's (was it used or new?) and so on without proper new module programming creates lots of issues. Do you have the original BCM? Maybe it's time to bypass the VTD system altogether. There are options.... Here is some info for you:
VEHICLE THEFT DETERRENT (VTD) DESCRIPTION AND OPERATION
PASSLOCK(TM) SYSTEM
The theft deterrent system has been incorporated into the body control module (BCM). The theft deterrent is provided in order to prevent the vehicle operation if the correct key is not used in order to start the vehicle. The ignition key turns the lock cylinder. The cylinder rotation produces an analog voltage code in the Passlock(tm) sensor. This voltage code is received by the BCM. The BCM compares the voltage code to the previously learned voltage code. If the codes match, a class 2 message is sent from the BCM to the powertrain control module (PCM)/vehicle control module (VCM). The message enables the fuel injectors.
The design of the Passlock(tm) system is to prevent vehicle theft by disabling the engine unless the ignition lock cylinder rotates properly by engaging the correct ignition key. The system is similar in concept to the PASS-Key(r) system. However, the Passlock(tm) system eliminates the need for a key mounted resistor pellet. The components of the Passlock(tm) system are as follows:
- The ignition lock cylinder
- The ignition switch
- The Passlock(tm) sensor
- The Body control module (BCM)
- The security telltale
- The vehicle/powertrain control module (VCM/PCM)
Ignition Lock Cylinder And Housing
The ignition lock cylinder is located at the upper right side of the steering column. The Passlock(tm) sensor is in the steering column. The Passlock(tm) sensor is separate from the key and lock cylinder. The key and the lock cylinder work together in order to determine if the proper ignition key was used to start the vehicle.
In the event of an open Class 2 serial data line between the BCM and the VCM/PCM, the vehicle will become fail-enabled if the VCM/PCM has already received the password from the BCM for that ignition cycle, the engine is running. In this event, the following conditions occur:
- The security telltale will be ON continuously.
- The VCM/PCM will become fail-enabled for future ignition cycles.
If a failure in the Class 2 serial data line occurs before the ignition cycle, when the VCM/PCM is not fail-enabled, the following conditions occur:
- The VCM/PCM will never receive a valid password in order to enable the fuel injectors.
- The vehicle will not start.
Ignition Switch
The lock cylinder and the visible key insert portion of the ignition switch are located at the upper right side of the steering column. The electrical switching portion of the assembly is separate from the key and lock cylinder. The electrical switch portion is hidden inside the steering column. The electrical switch portion and the key and lock cylinder synchronize and work in conjunction through the action of the mechanical assembly between the 2 parts.
Passlock(TM) Sensor
The Passlock(tm) sensor is inside the ignition cylinder lock housing. The Passlock(tm) sensor contains 2 hall effect sensors. The tamper hall effect sensor is on the top. The security hall effect sensor is under the tamper hall effect sensor. Both of the hall effect sensors monitor the magnet of the lock cylinder through an opening. The tamper hall effect sensor is physically placed on top of the security hall effect sensor. This arrangement enables the tamper hall effect sensor to engage first if an intruder attempts to bypass the Passlock(tm) sensor by placing a large magnet around that area of the steering column. There is a tamper resistor inside the Passlock(tm) sensor in order to help prevent tamper to the system. Passlock(tm) equipped vehicles have a selection of 10 different security resistors ranging from 0.5K ohms up to 13.6K ohms. Installing one of the security resistors inside the Passlock(tm) sensor will generate a unique Passlock(tm) code. All 10 combinations of the Passlock(tm) sensor have the same part number. However, you cannot simply replace the Passlock(tm) sensor and expect the system to operate properly. Always start by performing the Diagnostic System Check first and following the instructions.
Body Control Module
The Body Control Module (BCM) contains the theft deterrent system logic. The BCM reads the Passlock(tm) data from the Passlock(tm) sensor. If the Passlock(tm) data is correct, the BCM will pass theft. The BCM will then transmit the fuel continue password to the VCM/PCM.
During the tamper mode the vehicle may start. The vehicle will then stall. If the BCM receives the wrong Passlock(tm) data, the VTD will immediately go into the tamper mode. The tamper mode will lock-out the vehicle fuel injectors for 10 minutes. The SECURITY indicator will flash while the VTD is in the tamper mode.
If the Passlock(tm) sensor sends a correct password to the BCM when the ignition is in the ON position, the BCM will send a fuel enable signal to the VCM/PCM. The VCM/PCM will not disable the fuel due to any BCM message for the remainder of the ignition cycle.
SECURITY Telltale
The SECURITY telltale appears on the message center inside the instrument cluster. If the SECURITY telltale flashes or if the SECURITY telltale lights continuously during the vehicle operation, refer to the system diagnosis.
Vehicle/Powertrain Control Module
The VCM/PCM communicates with the BCM over the Class 2 serial data line. When the BCM determines a no start condition, it sends a Class 2 serial data password to the VCM/PCM in order to disable the fuel injection system. If the BCM receives the expected voltage from the Passlock(tm) sensor, the BCM sends a class 2 serial data password to the VCM/PCM in order to enable the fuel injection system. The VCM/PCM then allows the vehicle to start correctly. If the Class 2 serial data password from the BCM to the VCM/PCM is not within the Vehicle Security Status Message, the fuel injectors will shut OFF during a start attempt. The SECURITY telltale will be illuminated for 10 minutes. If the VCM/PCM does not receive the same password from the BCM as the last learned one, the vehicle will start and then stalls due to the Fuel Lockout.
FUEL LOCKOUT CYCLE
The Passlock(tm) system has a lockout cycle of approximately 10 minutes. Once the vehicle is in the lockout cycle, the vehicle remains in the lockout cycle for 10 minutes, even if the ignition switch is turned from the RUN position to the OFF position.
The Passlock(tm) system uses the lockout cycle in order to synchronize all of the Passlock(tm) components when any Passlock(tm) related part is changed. The Passlock(tm) system requires 3 consecutive lockout cycles in order to complete the 30 minute learn procedure for a changed component.
CHANGING THE PASSLOCK(TM) COMPONENTS
The design of the Passlock(tm) system is to prevent theft even if the various theft deterrent parts change. The parts that can no longer be changed without the possibility of going into a tamper mode are:
- The Passlock(tm) sensor
- The BCM
- The VCM/PCM
If you replace any of these parts the vehicle may start and stall for 10 minutes. This is the long tamper mode. If this occurs, the system must go through a long tamper mode cycle. During this time the SECURITY telltale will be flashing for the full 10 minutes and the DTC B3031 will be set. The BCM and the VCM/PCM require the full 10 minutes in order to complete a learn cycle. The ignition switch must remain in the RUN position until the SECURITY telltale stops flashing. You will need to repeat the cycle if the ignition switch does not remain in the RUN position. When replacing any of the above parts it is recommended to perform the Programming Theft Deterrent System Components procedure.
The design of the Passlock(tm) system is to prevent the vehicle operation if the proper ignition key is not used in order to start the vehicle. The mechanical key, in normal operation, will turn the ignition lock cylinder. The Passlock(tm) sensor monitoring the position of the lock cylinder will relay the Passlock(tm) data to the body control module (BCM). The BCM will determine the validity of the Passlock(tm) data. The BCM will send a fuel continue password to the vehicle/powertrain control module (VCM/PCM). When the VCM/PCM receives the correct password the VCM/PCM allows the fuel injectors to operate normally. The Passlock(tm) system requires the VCM/PCM and the BCM to communicate the various functions in order to operate. These functions transmit over the class 2 serial data line. For an explanation of the class 2 serial data description and operation, refer to Data Link Communications Description and Operation in Data Link Communications.
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An old car I used to have had a worn down ignition key that would start the car and I could pull it out while it was running with that particular key. My other keys that were not worn down would not come out.
So, is your key heavily worn down?
Yes both keys are worn, could be like you're saying and they're too worn. Once I get the main problems fixed I'll head to gm and get a new key cut
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Vile:
havent really been doing much diagnosing in the past month with this truck. been focus more on getting it through inspection, it has failed but theyre normal wear parts and it failed due to the rocker being rusted.
but anyway i have noticed a few funny things in the past few weeks. for one the truck does "know" when a door is open as it will display it in the cluster. it also has been acting like the BCM looses power once the key is in "off" as the lights and stuff stop working that should still have power. today i got the bright idea to open the door before turning the key off. and it shut the radio off like it was supposed to, this was repeated with the same results.
So my questions are how does the key get released? from memory something sends the signal to the ignition cylinder to release the key. could it be possible the ign switch is screwed up and sending a premature signal to allow the key to be released?
does the ign switch also give the BCM power? could it not be giving it power when the key is off?
and the final one, if the Ign switch is screwing up could it send the wrong signal (or not one at all) to the passlock sensor and really be the root of all my problems?
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It sure sounds like an ignition switch and new key cylinder is in order.
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Anecdotally, I learned about the GM passkey protections the hard way a few years back with a Cadillac Escalade. It didn't dawn on me that GM would still be THAT concerned about theft of a radio, but we discovered that cycling the key without the radio installed netted us a completely locked down Escalade.
I had the car for a motion picture cannon gag, so we basically gutted the interior, installed a full roll cage, pyrotechnic cannon and fuel cell. I cannot say if it was only cycling the ignition one time, or a series of times, without the radio plugged in that caused the padlock to appear in the heads up and meant bringing in someone with the correct scan tool and software to rectify. We still wound up "sending" the truck with the aftermarket stereo covered in foam and gaffers-tape and zip-tied to one of the roll cage bars. The stuntie driving wasn't super excited to have the thing in his "office space", but it was the only way I could be certain the truck would start and run while when the expense of cameras running happened.
I'm sure there are ways around it, and reading the thread it seems you have gotten past it all. Sorry for being late to the party with relevant information all the same.
Be safe
Jeremy
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An old car I used to have had a worn down ignition key that would start the car and I could pull it out while it was running with that particular key. My other keys that were not worn down would not come out.
So, is your key heavily worn down?
I just replaced the ignition cylinder and it fixed the key coming out. thats not to say the keys not worn as it is and its getting replaced monday to prevent it wrecking this new cylinder.
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It sure sounds like an ignition switch and new key cylinder is in order.
replaced the cylinder and it seemed to work better. wanted to bypass the passkey system just so its not an issue and for grins i also swapped in the original BCM.
even though i knew the resistance of the passkey and had an adjustable resistor i did a key (passkey) relearn. works like a chime.
while i was under the dash i noticed someone rigged up the BCM. someone stripped an 12GA orange wire and wrapped a jumper wire around it then tapped into the BCM orange wires. i found out that wire they tapped into only had power while the key was "on". things started clicking in my head and i jumped 12v from the battery to the BCM and everything works like it should. lights go on when you open the door and radio shuts off.
of course i dont want to rig it up so now i have to do what the other "mechanic" should have done and trouble shoot why the BCM doesnt have power all the time.
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Anecdotally, I learned about the GM passkey protections the hard way a few years back with a Cadillac Escalade. It didn't dawn on me that GM would still be THAT concerned about theft of a radio, but we discovered that cycling the key without the radio installed netted us a completely locked down Escalade.
I had the car for a motion picture cannon gag, so we basically gutted the interior, installed a full roll cage, pyrotechnic cannon and fuel cell. I cannot say if it was only cycling the ignition one time, or a series of times, without the radio plugged in that caused the padlock to appear in the heads up and meant bringing in someone with the correct scan tool and software to rectify. We still wound up "sending" the truck with the aftermarket stereo covered in foam and gaffers-tape and zip-tied to one of the roll cage bars. The stuntie driving wasn't super excited to have the thing in his "office space", but it was the only way I could be certain the truck would start and run while when the expense of cameras running happened.
I'm sure there are ways around it, and reading the thread it seems you have gotten past it all. Sorry for being late to the party with relevant information all the same.
Be safe
Jeremy
yeah the passkey is odd and easy to bypass. you can even bypass it without taking the 30 minutes to do the relearn