73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Body, Glass & Paint => Topic started by: RIGEROUS on February 08, 2008, 11:27:13 am
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:) Need suggestion for installing 5 inch tall outer door skin patch on a 1986 c10. I have made three attempts at very carefully fitting, tack welding, then stich welding, then finishe seem welding the after market patch panel. Each time the weld stresses pull a huge dent in the door skin. Does anyone where to buy outer door bottom patch panels that actually match the contor of the door and fit well around the fold over bottom seams ? Can anyone offer suggestions on the fit tack and weld process ? I am starting to think about using panel adhesive, any guidance on that process would be much appreciated.
Thank You, Rigerous
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You say seem weld it? Anything other than the smallest of tack will warp it. I hate to say it but,,,,throw the door in the trash and go buy a rust free or replacement door. The surface of the door is to large of a flat area to weld and it not warp. I guess if you can find another panel large enough to cut out what you've put in plus the warped area you could tack it every 6 inches across the door, let it cool completely, tack it every 6"s again and let it cool completely, then tack it 1 more time every 6 "s and let it cool, then fill it initially with Duraglass or someting strong, then reg. body filler. You want it cool enough you can touch the area around the weld with your bare hand. (sort of) Good luck.
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You need to tack it every 5 or 6 inches then go back over it until its a full weld letting it cool in between. A heat sink made of copper or brass behind the welds will also help allot. Once it is welded you have to hammer and dolly the hem all the way across the bottom and up both sides. You are leaving the face long to make the end hems right?
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If you have QuickTime or Windows Media Viewer I would suggest you(or anyone else interested) check out these Videos
These apply to any Professional Grade Products Out There, so they are Specific to just this Product line...
http://www.evercoat.com/training.aspx
Please Note, These Are Professional Training Videos that Give Professional Tips, So Please Respect Rules or Any Copy Rights In Place, as it would be ashame to lose them due to miss use!
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Thanks for the comments guys. Nice videos Dragon, I may end up going that route but not giving up on welding yet.
The Asian manufactured patch panel I have comes with the edges pre bent to 90 degrees. Problem is they are very tight, possibly a little to short compared to the door flange after that section of the skin is removed. I have been very careful about spacing each stitch and cooling between each stitch. I get about 50 - 85% of the seem done by stitching and then it pulls a big dent in. When I grind the weld out the remaining door skin returns perfectly to its original shape. I tried "forming" the patch panel to more closely match the actual door skin shape but it did not help. I think the problem may be that the patch panel is basically flat sheet metal that I am trying to join with the original door skin which is slightly curved both front to back and up and down. With the 90 degree bends along the edges of the panel fitting tight to the door frame the ends are essentially constrained. If this is the problem when I weld the slightly longer cord length of the original door skin to the slightly shorter straight section of the new panel the door skin conforms by flattening the bow out of the door skin when the welds cool. That is todays theory anyway, what do you think Blazin ??
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I meant to say, joining the slightly longer arc of the door skin to the slightly shorter "chord" length of the patch panel. sorry for the confusion
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I think I know exactly what is happening to you! I have been there and done that. Its a matter of rounding the patch to match the door shape, and lot of practice etc.
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I think I know exactly what is happening to you! I have been there and done that. Its a matter of rounding the patch to match the door shape, and lot of practice etc.
Blazin's correct, the Factory Doorskin has a Crown to it, where as the new replacement patch piece is either flat, or has a slight Crown, but still isn't enough to match the Factory Shape... Basically when you are welding in the patch panel to the Factory Skin, your are slightly Flattening the Factory Piece to contour to the Aftermarket, thus causing a concave/dent between the matched panels...
Here's an Old School Tip to get the Aftermarket Piece to Crown a bit more like the Factory Piece, when you don't have the expensive tools, or knowledge to do it more professionally(Ofcourse I was taught this trick by my Auto Collision Instructor, who looked alot like Mr Miyagi from the Karate Kid Movies(Yes he was Japanese American, and he was Affectionately Referred to as Sensei, for his teaching and discipline styles!) ;D)... Sit on the Floor, and use the upper portion of one of your legs as a table for the panel. With either the top/bottom portion of the panel facing your stomach(Not near it, and use caution, as it is Sharp!), and the other end facing you foot, very slightly roll/rock the panel side to side on your leg, while gently pushing each side towards the ground.
Remember to place the panel back on the door after the slightest adjustment on your leg, to check the panels contour to the factory piece..
Repeat re contouring and rechecking the panel fit, if it still doesn't match the Factory piece enough...
Don't Forget the proper Safety Equipment or Use Caution when attempting to Contour the Patch Panel, Take Your Time, And Constantly Check the Panel Fit & Shape before attempting to weld the piece in place!!
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I do a similar trick but use the 45 degree edge of a wooden bench top, tweak it a bit then slide it a touch, tweak it, slide it, tweak it, etc. etc.
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Well I cut the last patch panel effort off, the remaining door skin and door frame in the patch panel area are still in excellent shape. I get another crack at this as soon as a new patch panel come in from mail order. Do you think It is reasonable to expect to seam weld the patch on ?? Would I be better off stopping once I have it well stitched or will the body filler crack from the door flexing ?
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if you have holes left after the process, use the kitty-hair filler, the kind with fiberglass. regular filler will crack in this application.
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There will be no holes left. I plan to slide the patch panel up behind the remaining door skin so there is a lap joint. If I only stitch weld rather than seal weld it I am concerned that any water etc that runs down inside the door skin will collect on the inside ledge created by the lap joint. The "Kitty Hair" filler sounds like great advice. Do you think a strip of fibergalss resin with glass fibers in it would be even stronger / better ?
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Do you think a strip of fibergalss resin with glass fibers in it would be even stronger / better ?
more chance of keeping moisture out that way, sounds good to me.
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I would make sure its a complete welded seem. as for the inside I would coat it with short strand fiberglass filler.
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Personally on something like this, I prefer to use a Metal Infused Filler.... Basically it is like you are using Lead to make the repairs, but it isn't as Toxic, it is Rust and Waterproof, along with being easy to work with(Easily shaped, and can be drilled like actual sheetmetal without cracking like fiberglass(So long as it is mixed properly, along with the surface prepped correctly)....
USC's All-Metal is my Favorite(It is infused with Aluminum)! ;)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41abiU6jNhL._AA250_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/ALL-METAL-Premium-Aluminum-Filled-Filler/dp/B00063X684
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use this , every body shop uses this for replacing panels now http://www.levineautoparts.com/3maupaboad20.html
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What i am personally trying to find is a NOS door skin for our trucks, i seen some drivers doors but no pass doors.Chris can you help out?
thanks
pat
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NOS, no clue unless you can find some stored away. It would probably be easier to find a whole door stored away though.
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use this , every body shop uses this for replacing panels now http://www.levineautoparts.com/3maupaboad20.html
Really? Not directly wanting to bust on you, Flthead. My shop fixes nearly 600 cars a year, I've never bought any. There are many others on the market. Don't get me wrong, there are some places for adhesives, but flat-rate techs are using this stuff to "beat the time". It is not necessarily the best for every job it is being applied to. The glue is fast & cheaper than the $15,000 spot welders, this is why many are using it. I wont get into the whole "whats wrong with gluing everything", it does have a purpose & works very well for somethings. A seam is not one of them! For a guy without a welder or some skills it may be an ok plan. I have yet to see a seam done with glue that didn't show a "ghost line" shortly after the vehicle is painted, sure it is better than rust, but not the best for this job in my opinion. Rigerous, When I get a little more time I'll add my thoughts on your task. Talk to you all later, Lorne
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I agree totally. Glue works but will never replace a correctly welded seem. I have used it for cab corners and rear wheel arch patches but it was on a crap box that just needed to get one or two more inspection stickers on it.
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use this , every body shop uses this for replacing panels now http://www.levineautoparts.com/3maupaboad20.html
Really? Not directly wanting to bust on you, Flthead. My shop fixes nearly 600 cars a year, I've never bought any. There are many others on the market. Don't get me wrong, there are some places for adhesives, but flat-rate techs are using this stuff to "beat the time". It is not necessarily the best for every job it is being applied to. The glue is fast & cheaper than the $15,000 spot welders, this is why many are using it. I wont get into the whole "whats wrong with gluing everything", it does have a purpose & works very well for somethings. A seam is not one of them! For a guy without a welder or some skills it may be an ok plan. I have yet to see a seam done with glue that didn't show a "ghost line" shortly after the vehicle is painted, sure it is better than rust, but not the best for this job in my opinion. Rigerous, When I get a little more time I'll add my thoughts on your task. Talk to you all later, Lorne
Couldn't agree with you more! Personally I don't think there is a Good Substitution for welding, when it comes to Seams.. In most cases it is recommended by the Adhesive and Auto Manufacturers, to piggy back the use of adhesives with welding the seams...
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Rigerous, I'll give you my free two cents on the subject. I'll start by saying bodywork is like allot of things, everone has their way of doing it, some may be plain wrong & some may work well. The first problem you are having sounds like you need to curve this new panel some first. The next thing I would do is flange the original skin, this will add some strength to the panel & the heat will follow the fold & not go up the panel. Now cut your patch panel to lay on the flange, just below the fold. Cut through the old skin on the ends where the frame of the door is so the old & new are one cut, about 3/4" long, preparing for a butt weld on each end. Get your skin in place & tack it every 8" or so, one buzz, nnntt.....nnntt. Fold over the hem on the bottom & sides. Go along ONE buzz, nnntt.... move 8 or 10" nnntt.....nnntt, never any longer & never two beside each other. Back & forth for litterly an hour or so, nnttt....nnttt. stopping as you get it allmost filled in so it cools, until you have it completely welded solid of little, one lumps overlapping end to end. You can then grind it down a little here & there at a time until your done, go back & fill any little spots you missed. Flip the door over & weld the front & back hem lip. Make sure you sit the door in a stand cradling the door & not the curve across it, you will make what I call "hove prints" from the saw horse, get it? Horse - hove, Ok. You will end up with the lip of the original skin down on the inside of the door, this way water wont run in. Now get some good epoxy primer mixed up & pour in the bottom of the door, later stand it on a side & pour, repeat for the other end, after it sets up, turn the door upside down & work the epoxy in the seam with a brush, let it dry, do it again another coat. What you want is to seal EVERY pinhole, cover the bare metal, ect. Now turn it back over & lightly sandblast the seam, getting ALL of the black, burnt impurities out. Prime the jamb with epoxy & seam seal. Mix up either a fine strand fiberglass filler (Duraglas is good) or All- metal (mix it very well) & give the weld seam a coat, sand & fill as needed with regular filler & finishing putty. Prime the outside, block & prime as needed. BEFORE you do any wet sanding,washing ect. spray inside the bottom with non-drying rustproofing being careful to get EVERY INCH coated, including the seam. There it is, over 20 years of practice,everyday in a simple format. Any Questions, Just Ask, Lorne
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since these doors are still readily available for aftermarket, used and GM wouldn't it be cheaper and easier to just replace the door? By the time you're done patching, spending money on materials and hours of work, patching the door hardly seems like a worthwile process on one of these trucks. I can see doing a rear quarter or parts of the cab but the doors, inner and outer fenders, and hoods are throw aways when they rot out.
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since these doors are still readily available for aftermarket, used and GM wouldn't it be cheaper and easier to just replace the door? By the time you're done patching, spending money on materials and hours of work, patching the door hardly seems like a worthwile process on one of these trucks. I can see doing a rear quarter or parts of the cab but the doors, inner and outer fenders, and hoods are throw aways when they rot out.
ya thats why i said panel bond it , easiest most effective way besides wasting time repairing it ,but guess some guys shops work hourly
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Yes guys I do agree with you. I would not bother patching the door either. However, He asked for advise on how to go about it & is pretty determined by the sounds of it. Have a Good Day, Lorne
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since these doors are still readily available for aftermarket, used and GM wouldn't it be cheaper and easier to just replace the door? By the time you're done patching, spending money on materials and hours of work, patching the door hardly seems like a worthwile process on one of these trucks. I can see doing a rear quarter or parts of the cab but the doors, inner and outer fenders, and hoods are throw aways when they rot out.
I agree - I replaced both of my banged-up doors with junk yard 1991 Suburban doors (power wiring harness and both doors - 100 dollars). Sooooo much easier and I got power door locks and windows also.
That was a good write up on body repair Lorne ;)
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I agree that replacing doors is a better way to go. But I will admit that I have patched quite a few of my own. I know my time is worth money but since I am a body man a patch is second nature and is not a large chunk of change out of pocket. Plus most of my trucks are plow / work, or wheeling rigs. So if I bash a fixed door it wont hurt as bad as a new one.
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Okay, first let me say this forum is great, I am getting a lot valuable help from some experianced guys. Yes I know I could buy a new door and save time and money but..... This truck was very well cared for and documented its whole life by an older gentleman and was about to start getting "modified" by a kid when I "saved" it. It is all original except one replacement of tires, brake lining and stock exhaust system. I want to keep it as original as possible, just because that is how I think chevy trucks should be. The second thing is I am definitely the ocassional weekend mechanic but I would much rather work on a chevy truck than watch TV, its just a lot more fun particularly since I am stuck in an office all day. Now that I am into this door I want try to see it through. Lorne, could you tell me more about flanging the original door skin. How big of a flange. 1/4 ". 1/2" ? Do you mean bend the cut off edge of the original door skin in toward the inside of the door ? Should I also flange the patch panel so the two flange halves join as if they would be bolted together ?
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Rig, There are several tools on the market to do the flange. There are crimping pliers, sorta like Vise-grips with a flange die on the end. The air powered ones are easier to use & are worked at 90* to the panel which makes them better if you are close to the bottom of the door. One design works with an air hammer (chisel) & the better (easier to control) is an air tool that has flange dies on one side & a hole punch on the other. You can purchase any of these at a good autobody supply store, go look at them & decide what seems best for you. All of these typically make about a 1/2" flange. Rig, yes the original skin will be "offset" inward the thickness of a layer of sheetmetal. You won't have to do anything with the new panel, it will just lay flat on the flange. If you cut the old skin straight off,end to end, then flange the panel, you will find you can't do the last 1", due to the frame. Lay the patch panel on there & cut through the old skin the 1" on each edge,just above the new panel. This way you will have a butt weld just on the edges & a "backing" for your weld on the whole middle, but will not be a different height from the original skin, plus the flange will add stiffness to you original skin, which is part of your initial problem. Any other questions, feel free to ask! Glad to help, Lorne
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Just an observation, but wouldn't putting a flange in the vertical tend the straighten the door skin? That is, try to flatten the curve of the door? I never used this method, just thinking that's what would happen.
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Ccz, We are making the flange horizontally,the entire length of the cut-open part of the original skin. These tools only do a an inch or so at a time, it pretty much just follows along with the shape that is there, but yes, you can not use them around a corner, lets say on the bedside just below the tail light. It will just deform the original piece going around the corner. Lorne
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Perfect, Lorne, I followed your suggestions, flanged the lower edge of the remaining door skin and seam welded it with no distrotion !! I used the vise grip style flange tool, it really did a nice job. I am very happy with how it turned out and what I learned in the process, can't wait for another panel to need repair.
Thanks a million for everyones input.
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Rigerous, Glad it worked out. Nothing is more frustrating than wanting to do right & just can't seem to get it done. Glad to Help, have fun on the rest of your project & if you have any other questions, just ask, Lorne
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Very good, glad it worked out.