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73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Engine/Drivetrain => Topic started by: team39763 on March 25, 2008, 11:11:20 am
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I'm in the market for a new tow vehicle. I was going to build one, but my idea of a tow/travel vehicle isn't up to my wife's standards. So, we're trying to sell the Ford(4.6L too weak to pull), and looking at a few Blazers, Z71's, and 3/4 ton trucks(some duallies). Here's what I found so far.
1. 1997 Z71 with vortec 350 and 5speed trans. I figured I could swap in a 400 shortblock and maybe some headers. It has about the same amount of cab space as the Ford. Mileage?
2. 1987 K5 Blazer with a 454 and TH400. The truck won't be driven a lot, only on trips to the track and to see family across Texas. With the right gears, could this get decent gas mileage(assuming I drive easy). What mods would make this get better mileage?
3. 1993 3/4ton Dually with 454 and unknown auto trans. My wife doesn't really like the looks of these older dually trucks, but we figured we could hold heavier stuff with it. On the other hand, it's no bigger than the Ford[cab] and I'm sure it's an expensive hassle to replace the dual wheels/tires.
4. 1994 Dually with 350 and unknown auto trans. Same as above, but maybe better gas mileage?
5. 1995 3/4ton Suburban with 454 and auto trans. Plenty of seating and doesn't look bad. I'm sure this is a heavy truck, so I don't know about the gas mileage.
6. 1997 Tahoe with vortec 350 and auto trans. Plenty of seating. Would the 350 be enough to get this truck moving and tow my truck and trailer?
I'd really like to have a big block truck, but how bad is the gas mileage really? The truck's only major job would be to tow. How will it compare to a 350 trying to pull the same load? Which would ya'll choose?
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I'd go for number 5 the Sub or 3, duallys really pull good, I always like to tow with a heavy truck and theres lots of room for your stuff. The mileage will be better with the BB pulling the same load. Make sure you have a good trany cooler, The lone star is hard on tranys.
Steve
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My buddy has a 1999 chevy one ton with a 454. He gets around 11 on the highway. We pulled up a really heave trailer once with my truck on it about a 4 hour trip and he got 10 flat there and back. 70 mph the whole way.
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i don't have time to get into it real deep right now, but i am actually looking for a 1ton crewcab myself for similar reasons as yourself.
#1) can't comment right now.
#2) Disaster; If you are going to drive from alaska to texas, you will pay more in fuel than what you paid for the truck. 10-12mpg 15 tops.
the right gears (2.56 or higher if possible)
Lower it as much as possible
get rid of the 4x4 and switch to 4x2
You get the picture---drastic mods.
#3-#6 can't comment on right now,although 4 will get better mpg than 3 but not much--1-3mpg better and 6 is probably the best out of the bunch and the one i would probably pick, although i don't know exactly how much weight you need to tow?
The big-block has never made sense in these trucks unless you have a business(you're using it to transport drugs) or you have some other business, i.e., construction co or delivery co where you're not driving that many miles with it---local, no more than 30 mile radius.
i was contemplating switching to a smaller cubic inch engine---i.e., 283, 262 vortec v-6, or even smaller, but then i realized this would compromise the towing/hauling capacity of the truck which is the reason why i would buy one in the first place.
So, i've decided that i'm only going to look at diesel equipped trucks. 25mpg when empty, yet still has 10,000lb GVWR. (the one's i'm specifically looking at have the 6.2 engine).
So, i feel that unless you have a special situation, as described above, only diesels make sense in anything at or above 3/4ton truck level. i think big-blocks only makes sense in corvettes---where you can still get decent mileage. i don't think gas has ever been cheap; The cheapest i've seen gas was .86 cents and that was in 1981.
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I would have to say of the options you have laid out #1 or #6 would be my choices. The 350 five speed would make an excellent towing setup for your truck plus you would have close to the same amount of room you have with your current truck.
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My race truck is a good 3600lbs by itself and the trailer we use is pretty heavy duty compared to other trailers we pulled. My wife and I are also starting a [mobile] Nitrous business, so we'll be transporting mother-bottles and maybe even a 60gal compressor along with the nitrous pump. I like the torque of the big block, but on the other hand, I'm pretty familiar with 350's and I can replace it for almost nothing if it goes out. I just need to be better off than what I have now. This little 4.6L could barely break past 55mph on the 20mile trip to the local track.
I forgot to mention, I found a few 80's Blazers with the 6.2 diesel, but I'm not familiar with that engine at all. I remember hearing about great gas mileage though.
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I would say 3,4,5 based on the vehicle description.
454's are generally going to get the same mileage pulling or not, generally around 12mpg.
The longer/heavier the vehicle the better it will pull/stop. You don't want to tow with a Blazer..
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I say stay away from Blazers, short beds. Wheel base is to short. A loaded two place snowmobile trailer will push a short wheel base truck around in a panic stop or less than ideal road conditions. I would also stay away from 1/2 tons. Just don't have the breaking ability, or tow load.
Stick with a 3/4 ton or bigger. I would stay with the 1 ton dual wheels. The extra width is handy when towing at higher speeds. Very stable, not unpredictable. I know small blocks much better than big blocks. But i will tell you once you have towed with a big block you won't ever want a small block for towing a heavy trailer again.
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Well can you guys tell me this: Will a similar sized smallblock get the same mileage as a bigblock. Lets say 400SB against 396BB or 402BB. Could I get the same pulling power by swapping in a 400smallblock with the vortec setup?
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My opinion here, but a big block is always going to loose in the mileage dept. Might only be by a few MPG or it could be as much as ten or more MPG. Depends on the work load of the truck, driving traits, etc. As
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OK; Apparently i have you confused with someone else---you don't live in Alaska, you live in Texas? This may be significant.
How heavy, to your best guestimate, is the truck, trailer and all equipment? Is the trailer enclosed or open deck?
As a more logical alternative, you may want to consider the trucks with the diesel 6.5 N/A or turbo. For instance #3,4,5 with this engine would make excellent haulers.
Another avenue is to look into the trucks with the duramax/allison combo. I'm not sure when they first started equipping them this way. i may end up getting one of these trucks.
Also, since you're in Texas, you have a few Carmax'es and they have a pretty good selection which you can check out online. i may end up going this route myself. i'm not saying carmax is better than buying from an individual owner. Actually, if you can find a good truck from an individual it is better. But i think carmax is ok.
Gasoline in anything above 1/2 tons really makes no sense. Only diesels make sense.
P.S. As far as similar sized small blocks vs. big-blocks, i feel that the mpg will be about the same. But one thing to consider is bearing size; Smaller bearings=less friction=slightly better mpg. Also, the small block is lighter than BB.
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But i will tell you once you have towed with a big block you won't ever want a small block for towing a heavy trailer again.
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I agree. My 85 C20 in my avitar/signature gets me 15 on the open road at 65-70. It is as close to a 1 ton as a 3/4 ton could be with the 8600GVW rating. I have towed several heavy loads and mileage goes down to 11-12. When it was my uncles he used to pull a heavy 5th wheel 35 foot camper and get 13. I also have friends with the same 454 in a similar truck with a 3.73 or 4.11 and they can't pass a gas station topping out at 6-7.
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From your ballpark description, I would say #3 or #5 would be better suited for your needs(Truck,Trailer, and anything else). Would agree with Blazin, a 1ton 454 with a 4L80E is a better option...
Realistically a Z71 with Vortec'd 400 5spd wouldn't be able to handle the load, dog pretty bad, suck gas like a mugger(Bout the same, if not worse than a BBC), and burn up the trans quickly....
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A big block vs small block with the same displacement will not get the same mileage. Think of it like this...it's a baby with it's baba (sbc) or fat slob with a 7-11 big gulp (bbc). The ports on a big block are ginormous compared to small blocks. They breathe better and can be very inefficient as far as fuel economy is concerned, however they are more volumetrically efficient. If mileage is your primary concern though and you are pulling/towing the bbc may be more favorable as it won't have to work as hard. If you have your rig set up correctly and geared properly you can get fairly comparable mileage but better pulling power with the BB. If you've never owned or driven a bb truck you should try driving both and see how you like it. It really is a totally different feeling driving a BB (good feeling)
Gasoline in anything above 1/2 tons really makes no sense. Only diesels make sense.
???
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i'd probably recommend #5...seems like it would work out well for you/your family. i mean, out of that list that's what i'd pick. STAY AWAY FROM THE BLAZER! i love K5s and that would be bad to wheel but HORRIBLE to tow with. have you ever towed with a short wheelbase vehicle? there is a reason all your tow rigs are long wheelbase.
if you can afford it, i'd strongly recommend a newer DMax/Allison combo rig...
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Yeah, I live in Texas. I wish I could afford a Duramax, I really like those. I have a buddy that gets good gas mileage with his, then he tows his race car to the track, then runs mid-low 13's with the tow rig.
I'd guess the full load weighs close to 5000lbs. I did see a few trucks with the 6.5 turbo, but I'm not familiar with those engines. Are they prone to a bunch of problems? What is a good amount of mileage for them?
I think I'm gonna have to try driving all of them to see what I think. I've never driven a BB truck or a diesel truck(not counting the Freightliner).
I saw a truck with something coupled to an Allison transmission, but I can't remember what it was. I know it wasn't a duramax though...maybe an 8.1?
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No one has mentioned torque output yet... big-block engines usually produce more foot-pounds of torque than a small-block chevy engine (stock, no modifications).
The heavier the truck, the more metal you have to move around besides what you are pulling.
Definitely stick with a long wheelbase truck, 3/4 ton or 1 ton. You may want to consider a diesel engine instead for your towing rig.
All that being said, I can sure tow plenty with my bone-stock 350 GM Goodwrench motor in my old 73 C10 3/4 ton!
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go diesel all the way for towing, you will be very happy, ;D it is more money at first but you will be very happy when you are blowing by a small block going up a hill in the middle of the night on the way home
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I have two trucks I pull a 7k lb 30' camper with:
1) the 79 chevy big 10 with the famous (or infamous) 383 stroker. She doesn't hesitate to go over the Blue Ridge Mts and I still have plenty of pedal left. On the interstate, I average about 70mph and pretty much stay in the hammer lane.
2) my 91 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban with 5.7 TBI. Once going, she will stay in the hammer lane on the interstate, except when there is gentle incline for more than a 1/2 mile. I can still maintian over 55mph on inclines, and 70+ on flat land, but of course, i keep it out of overdrive. The thing with my sub is I honestly can't tell that 30' iron weight is back there when driving. The sub handles so well pulling.
I never have had a big block. The SBC's take care of my needs. Tack on an auxillary tranny cooler and a 4 core radiator and you good to go.
I can average about 13mpg without pulling with my sub. My pickup will average about 15 if i keep my foot out of it. When pulling, well, that is another story. Cut that mpg in half.
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I have towed with plenty of small blocks over the years. They all worked well but, sometimes I found they lacked that extra umph. I agree with the torque thing. A stock BB, has more torque than a mild SB. The thing about a BB is you don't have to rev them, its hard to explain. The power is just there, not much go pedal required!
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i guess it boils down to how much driving will you be doing? If it's just going to be on the weekends to local tracks, the BB might be more cost-effective than diesel; You'll have to do some number crunching.
For instance, if the cost of the gas powered trucks is thousands and thousands less than an equivalent diesel truck, and with gas prices the way they are you might find this scenario to be very true, it may be better to go gas---how much driving would it take to equal the higher price difference of the diesel?
In my case, due to my geographical circumstances, i'm going to be doing alot of driving(300 or more miles per week) so gas is out of the question for me.
Is 5000lbs really all the weight? And is the trailer open or enclosed? How were you towing with the 4.6 ford? In OD or drive?
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I think Stewart is on the right track. I have crunched the numbers based off of the driving I do (150-300 per day), and with the cost of deisel versus the cost of gas, the deisel will have to get at least 2-3 mpg more than the gas just to even out the fuel usage. Then once you factor in how much more the deisel engine costs to obtain, and maintenance of the deisel versus the gas, the deisel will have to get alot better gas mileage just to justify the cost difference. If you are pulling a trailer constantly, then that is where the deisel will shine and get better mileage. I have on 01 1 ton crewcab that I just got with the 8.1 and Allison. The guys I got it from said he got 13-14 on the highway, and down to 8-9 with his trailer which is a 35' horse trailer with living quarters. He also has a duramax set up the same as this one, and only get 14-15mpg and 10 with the same trailer. The difference is the deisel doesn't seem to work as hard as the gas, but he stated the gas doesn't have much trouble. I asked him about the cost difference in fuel,maintenance, purchase between the gas and the deisel, and he said that for what he did, if the truck was just personal use, then he couldn't justify the cost.(He figured it out before I did) but since he uses the truck primarily for business, then the majority of the expense is tax deductable. If your just using it to pull occasionally for pulling, it may be hard to justify the cost of the deisel. And take into consideration, I have never seen a deisel go to the shop, and cost less than a $1000 to fix, whereas the gas engines arn't as complicated. Just compare the cost difference between a deisel injector and a gas injector. I bet you can replace all the gas injectors before you can afford the deisel injector. I love my 8.1 and this is the second one I have had. It pulls my trailer with my 6,000+ tracker on it like it isn't there.
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I didn't even think about the tax deductions. I would be promoting/expanding my business when I take the truck to the track and sell my nitrous/race gas, so I could use it as a tax deduction...right? We are working on getting the business tax ID and we already have the DBA(Main Squeeze). I think what I really need is something that's roomy, gonna be reliable while pulling and still get decent gas mileage, and at the same time be easy/cheap to work on and maintain. I think a BB suburban is gonna be the final choice. I think the only things standing in the way are - 1. We need to sell this ford 2.My wife found a convertible BMW and she wants me to BUILD myself a tow vehicle(she said it's still up to me though).
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IF you use it for business, keep in mind that you have appearance issues. The public is somewhat shallow and judge the business based off of the appearance of the equipment. I personally would be happy for you to just show up in your black truck, but if it doesn't look professional, then people don't take you seriously. Take that into consideration onyour final choice. The fuel and the truck should be a write off in most cases that is why in my case I could care less about mileage, but I charge mileage to the jobs. Purchasing the right vehicle now to take care of the business will determine how many BMW garbage cans your wife can afford later. Consider this advice, make the sacrifices now to build the company, and the rewards will come later. It is worth sacrificing. I started in our family suburban, went to an 04 K1500, and now can buy whatever I want. It is worth it, and don't finance it if you can get away from it.
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Good thinkin' Choptop, I'll keep appearance in mind. I appreciate all the advice guys.
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Im going to throw my 2cents in here. I have owned big block, small block and a REAL diesel (Cummins) IF all you do is towing, get a DUALLY, with at least a big block. Stay away from chevy diesels unless its a 3rd year duramax (2003+) A 3/4 ton single rear wheel is ok for towing, but if thats all it does or primarily what it does you want the duals for handleing.
Second, yea a BUILT small block will tow, but you have to know how to build a torqie small block with the power band where you REALLY need it. The big block in stock form has a serious advantage over a small block. A Cummins on the other hand, well there is no debate here. Find a 91.5-98.5 Dodge Cummins 12 valve and get good fuel mileage towing and hows 20 MPG for a daily driven 8000lb TRUCK???
Yeah GM never had a good diesel untill the Duramax, and even then a took 2 years to get it really good. Im just speaking from an all around performance standpoint, the 6.2's wernt bad, but not enough power to do anything, the 6.5's were good, but had their own issues to deal with.
Im sorry to say it, but the wifey will have to get over the duals (and duals do too look good!! :P) And you want at least a bigblock, I know fuel mileage is a big concern, but thats a business write off (fuel) As a tower small block and big will average about the same, but as a driver, small block will be better. (and diesel is a whole nother story. lol)
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I'm with Cowboy_Customs ;D
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Well, we're just waiting for this Ford to sell. After that, I can tow my truck to San Antonio for a dyno tune. I'm hoping to find someone who can help me tune it when I get there. I think my wife would be cool with a dually if it looks good - nice wheels, nice grille, decent paint, and good sounding exhaust.
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just for one reference, my 01 crewcab dually with the 8.1 and allison got 8.5 pg with my 16 ft 7,000 pound cargo trailer, and my 04 k1500 with the 5.3 got 7 with the same trailer. Unloaded the k1500 definately does better, but loaded the crews got it,
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I won't comment on Cowboy's thoughts about the early Duramax, because I have one and love it. But the Cummins is also a great choice for towing heavier loads:certainly the choice of over-the road truckers. If you're only towing 5000lbs tho, a 3/4 ton gas engine single axle will work fine with a 3.73 tranny and other towing set ups mentioned . Fuel prices today almost prohibit the expense of buying a diesel truck for non-business uses. I pay $3.90 a gallon now and it's $100 every fill up.
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I finally sold the Ford, but we didn't get as much as we wanted for it(I'm not much of a salesman). I had really planned to go pick up a bigblock dually as soon as we sold the ford, but it was sold already. Then the other dually I checked out was in pretty rough condition. The only decent trucks I can find now are a 96 suburban(4x4)with a vortec 350 and a 92 z71(extended cab). My wife will most likely want the Z71 because it looks good and it's cheaper.
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The other idea i came up with is to consider those Isuzu cab-over box trucks; You can pick them up used cheap, they have diesels--i think an Isuzu 4cyl, and good hauling capacity---certainly enough for a 5000lbs trailer.
The long overhang past the rear axle is not good for towing, but with the right brand of trailer and, if nessesary anti-sway bars, it probably won't be a problem. You can leave to box on to carry your nitrous equipment and stock. Or you could take the box off, put a fifth wheel hitch on and tow fifth wheel trailer.
But, you seem like a big-block fan. Plus, your wife probably won't like the looks of the isuzu. (who's running the business?)
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I had looked at some cab-over trucks like that, but like you said, my wife won't like traveling in that. We are both running the business, she handles the money and the paper work while I handle the gas and other physical work. And like was said earlier, appearance is a factor too as far advertising my business. We need something that looks kinda cool so it gets good attention too. I personally do like box trucks...it's a huge canvas to advertise on, but that cabs are ugly.
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Just a thought, but it is knida out there. There are several de-commisioned 1-ton U-hauls around this area for $2500-$3000. Ghe still run good, and with a paint job and some chrome wheel covers would make a decent rig. May check your area and see what you think. At least you can get a Chevy.
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We ended up finding a 94 crew cab dually with a 454. It has 78,000mi on it. It looked decent in the pictures. We're financing it through the bank and we had to put up my race truck as collateral. I'm hoping my business does great, because I'd hate to lose my truck. Thanks for all the advice guys. Anybody got any tips for making it a better tow rig?
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What's it got for a drive train? Make sure you have a good auxiliary trans cooler.
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I just picked it up and I love it. It's really nice. It's lowered and has an airbag system in the back. I believe the trans is a 4L80E, I haven't checked the gears yet. RPMs on the way home were 2300-2400 going 64-65mph. It's a gas guzzler for sure. I'm gonna change the oil, air filter, and fuel filter before I start driving it around. We'll have a 40,000GVW trans cooler on the way within the next week.
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Other than the cooler, a Crew Cab Dually should be set for towing.
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Man! This thing guzzles bad. It's almost empty and we filled the tank just lastnight.
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you're probalby looking at 12mpg tops!
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Got a scan tool? If not get a DLC cable and download a free windows ALDL program and plug into your lap top. you've got a fuel injected unit that if we could see datastrem might be able to help you correct it to get optimized fuel economy.
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I'm gonna see about getting one of those DLC cables soon. My plans for the truck include some headers, performer intake, and some custom tuning. I have to say, the truck looks pretty good. I'd say it's got atleast a 4/6 drop...the rear axle has been flipped. The paint is pretty good except for the dually fenders.
Hey, is it true that all duallies have to have mud flaps? I got a warning from a state trooper today because this truck didn't have any. But the previous owner has owned this truck since new and lived here in Texas for a while now...and he never got cited for it.
Anyway, I hope we can get the mileage up a bit.
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As far as the mudflaps, yes they are required on duallies. At least we don't have to have them on our lifted trucks like some states. A rule of thumb from w dps friend of mine is the bottom od the flap needs to be even od lower with the lowest point on the rim or four inches from the ground, whichever is lowest. Make sure you run higher pressures in the tires. Lotsa people run lower air pressure in these trucks for a smoother ride, but it destroys the mileage. You don't buy a 1-ton dually for ride quality.If you don't like the ride, load it up, it will get better. Congrats on the ride.
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Here's a picture of the truck. Nobody in town has mudflaps for a dually, so I'm gonna have to order them. So far all I've done to it is cut off the muffler/cat and install a flowmaster(10 series), then I had the windows tinted. I know the 10 series is like not even having a muffler on, so I'm gonna order a spintech sportsman muffler soon.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f143/team39763/SSPX0112.jpg)
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Really nice truck ;D
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that is one pretty dually!
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Thanks.