73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Brakes, Frame, Steering & Suspension => The Lows (Lowering/Drops) => Topic started by: dueprocess on April 06, 2008, 05:02:12 pm
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Why is it this low? I put DJM 3" drop coils(progressive rate) on my 83 C10 1/2ton and now the from is just about sitting on the ground. the driver side is literally sitting on the bump stop hard. The passenger side is just at touching the bump stop. Granted the shackle & hangers have not been put on the back yet,but should have not dropped this bad off 3"coils. Could some of it be due to the shocks being old and crappy, have a little to do with it? Any idea's as to what is going on - i am open to suggestions!!!!!!!!!!!
1983 C10 - 2WD - 1/2ton with heavy duty suspension & brakes - 6.2L Diesel(379)V8
Front View
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/dueprocess2006/Frontview.jpg)
The passenger side
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/dueprocess2006/Passengerside-1.jpg)
The whole view of passenger side
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/dueprocess2006/passengersideviewwithback.jpg)
The driver side front
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/dueprocess2006/SittingonnewbumpstopDriverside.jpg)
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Where did you get the coils from? Why not just use lowering spindles?
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make sure you r not missing a spring seat cushion on either side .
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I got the coils from summit racing. I did not get the spindles because the truck had a 1" sag on the drivers side(figured it to be the noturious drooping coil from that era), the coils were only $137.00 shipped to see if that fixed my leaning problem and the spindles($260.00) were gonna be bought when i bought the rest of the bagging parts. Really just wanted to see if it would level the front-end out!!!!!
I just don't understand why it is sitting on the bump stops unless the orignal shocks on the truck is letting it bottom out......
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make sure you r not missing a spring seat cushion on either side .
would they have come with the springs and bump stops.
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no insulators.... u need to check everything over. Is your crossmember rotted/cracked?
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no insulators.... u need to check everything over. Is your crossmember rotted/cracked?
Guess i really don't know exactly what i am looking for - i got the truck from the son of the original owner due to his hard time. I can't find any rust on the truck at all, the cross member did not appear to be cracked or rotted - what is the best way to check it out really well.
what are the insulators / seat cushtions(sp) everyone's using different terms but no explain what they mean. If it is easyier said than typed - shoot me a pm and i am willing to hit you up my phone number or call
Thanks for the help guys!!!!!!!!!!!
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spring insulators sit right on the spring pocket. You don't have them. Check to see if something is bent or damaged. Some pix would be helpful....
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spring insulators sit right on the spring pocket. You don't have them. Check to see if something is bent or damaged. Some pix would be helpful....
I will get some pics monday after work - should i just get some pics of the underside, crossmember, and spindle coil area with the tire off?
Should i get this thing jacked back up in the air so it does not sit there all night with all the weight on it if it is a cracked cross member? How immediate is a cracked cross member?
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By the photos, it looks like the Left front is still an inch different than the Right ("Lt. is sitting on the bumpstop hard,Rt. is just touching") Is it? How much off is the rear, say from the floor up to the wheel lip in the same spot side to side?
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yes indeed, check the height on the rear both sides.
your rear springs cold be the problem too. wear/bent
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By the photos, it looks like the Left front is still an inch different than the Right ("Lt. is sitting on the bumpstop hard,Rt. is just touching") Is it? How much off is the rear, say from the floor up to the wheel lip in the same spot side to side?
yes indeed, check the height on the rear both sides. your rear springs cold be the problem too. wear/bent
Will take some measurements today after work and get some pics...... I post soon as possible!!!!!! Thanks guys!
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Just my 2 cents. Shocks don't hold a rig up or down, just like you can't lift a truck with just shocks. All they do is dampen wheel travel. If you drive it with them most likely they will bottom out and blow them though.
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Are the springs the correct application? Meaning are they for a 83 1/2 ton with a Diesel and A/C? A Diesel ways more than a small block gasoline engine and A/C equipment can add 150#s to the front weight. Call summit maybe they're boxed wrong. maybe there for an inline 6 without A/C.
Shocks do absolutely nothing to hold up a vehicle, any vehicle. They only control spring movement. Air shocks help hold up a vehicle but in my humble opinion are the wrong way to go.
Let us know.
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Are the springs the correct application? Meaning are they for a 83 1/2 ton with a Diesel and A/C? A Diesel ways more than a small block gasoline engine and A/C equipment can add 150#s to the front weight. Call summit maybe they're boxed wrong. maybe there for an inline 6 without A/C.
Shocks do absolutely nothing to hold up a vehicle, any vehicle. They only control spring movement. Air shocks help hold up a vehicle but in my humble opinion are the wrong way to go.
Let us know.
Good point, i will call summit and see if by chance i did end up with the wrong coils/ packaged in the right box. I'm with you, air shocks are crap!!!!!!
yes indeed, check the height on the rear both sides. your rear springs cold be the problem too. wear/bent
Measured the rear and it is 1" higher on the passenger side @ every place i measured from rear wheels back, which is right if the drivers front is 1" lower than the passenger side front! Think i may have a 1" bend or flex in the frame. Guess i will call summit and see what they say.
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What size tires are those? It looks fairly normal to me with 3" drop coils and a Diesel engine.
I would check body bushings on the "low" side...
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What size tires are those? It looks fairly normal to me with 3" drop coils and a Diesel engine.
I would check body bushings on the "low" side...
the tires are a 275/60/15 Toyo Proxes(came on the truck), so i should be sitting on the bump stops with 3" drop coils and a diesel engine. If i would have know that i would have only got 2" coils!!!!! hahahaha
I have to admit, with the tire/rim combo i am surprised i have no LCA rubbing, i backed it out the garage and turned it around to be able to get to the back of it and no rubbing marks or anything!!!!!!
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It should be close (it looks like about 3.5" based on the pictures) 4" will sit on the stock bumpstops.
Did you measure before and after to see how much you got out of the springs?
The bad part is the springs will probably settle some so it is going to get lower.
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yea, i measured and would have needed 4 1/4 to sit on bump stops, hence why i thought i would be safe with the 3" coils. Now i am sitting on bump stops no dout - guess she really can't get any lower in present condition huh..hahahahaha
So with my coils from bell tech(99 Yukon ~ spindle's,coils and LCA) they sent me 1" coil spacers, do they have these for my 83? Can i use the bell tech 1" spacers on the 83? I did not need them on my truck by anymeans!
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Thanks for all you guys help!
I called sumit today and talked to them, they called JDM and corrected the mistake of sending me springs that collapse under the weight of a 6.2L Diesel.... I am getting a full refund from summit for the coils even though they are used!
I did find out by a guy coming over to look and help me out, i do have a small bend in the frame. He owns Adams body and frame in Destin. My drivers side front wheel is pushed back 1" and the bow in the frame is right about under the drivers seat.. Once i get the old springs back in i will get her to the frame shop, drop her off for a day and then back here to install the 3" drop spindles,LCA's and bag components!!!! You guys were awesome and look forward to more interaction with you guys and reading more on the forum!!
Big Buck
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I see you figured it out, but as far as the spacer, I am not sure how it operates but the 73-87 springs aren't the same as 88-98 springs in spacing and diameter.
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You should replace all of your springs FIRST, then take it in for frame/alignment.
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Due, Can you post a picture of your frame? The area I believe you are talking about, under the cab on the Left side belongs there on many early-mid '80's 2wd shortbed trucks. The bottom lip of the frame is rolled down like a gorilla with a big pair of Channel locks grabbed it & pulled down right under the driver's seat step-up area where the frame starts to rise. I'm not saying "your frame isn't bent" just that that area is suspicious looking on many mid '80's shortbeds, but was there from the factory. Now back to your lean, Is the front fender lip, side to side off more than the bed side lip, side to side, or is the back worse? The end that is off more is where you should start looking for the problem. The fact that you had a lean with the old front springs & the new ones (regardless that they are wrong) makes me think you need to look in the rear some more. The idea that the bumpstop was touching on the Left, but not on the Right means that the suspension is different side to side & likely not the frame itself. How much different is there from the frame (or bumpstop) to the axle on the rear? I think you will find that once the correct springs are installed in the front, your truck is still going to lean to the Left. When the truck is on the frame machine, the suspension is "out of the picture" giving you the true story. Lorne
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I love the way that front end sits only with coils. By chance do you have a link for those coils. Thanks.
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While your thinking, You could swap the coils and see if the lean follows and eliminate that variable.
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The lean is probably due to a fatigued leaf spring. Measure the distance from the frame to the top of the leaf spring in the back. Compare L to R
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I love the way that front end sits only with coils. By chance do you have a link for those coils. Thanks.
Here ya go!!!! http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=DJM%2DCS2353%2D3&N=700+4294908216+4294908213+4294925044+4294925130+4294839061+400323+115&autoview=sku
The lean is probably due to a fatigued leaf spring. Measure the distance from the frame to the top of the leaf spring in the back. Compare L to R
10 1/8"(Drivers) 10 3/8"(passenger)
Due, Can you post a picture of your frame? The area I believe you are talking about, under the cab on the Left side belongs there on many early-mid '80's 2wd shortbed trucks. The bottom lip of the frame is rolled down like a gorilla with a big pair of Channel locks grabbed it & pulled down right under the driver's seat step-up area where the frame starts to rise. I'm not saying "your frame isn't bent" just that that area is suspicious looking on many mid '80's shortbeds, but was there from the factory. Now back to your lean, Is the front fender lip, side to side off more than the bed side lip, side to side, or is the back worse? The end that is off more is where you should start looking for the problem. The fact that you had a lean with the old front springs & the new ones (regardless that they are wrong) makes me think you need to look in the rear some more. The idea that the bumpstop was touching on the Left, but not on the Right means that the suspension is different side to side & likely not the frame itself. How much different is there from the frame (or bumpstop) to the axle on the rear? I think you will find that once the correct springs are installed in the front, your truck is still going to lean to the Left. When the truck is on the frame machine, the suspension is "out of the picture" giving you the true story. Lorne
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/dueprocess2006/Framedippingdown2.jpg)
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/dueprocess2006/Framedippingdown1.jpg)
It should be close (it looks like about 3.5" based on the pictures) 4" will sit on the stock bumpstops.
Did you measure before and after to see how much you got out of the springs?
The bad part is the springs will probably settle some so it is going to get lower.
Stock springs
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/dueprocess2006/Sittingwithstockpringsbackin4.jpg)
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/dueprocess2006/Sittingwithstockpringsbackin3.jpg)
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/dueprocess2006/Sittingwithstockpringsbackin1.jpg)
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/dueprocess2006/Sittingwithstockpringsbackin2.jpg)
DJM 3" Drop Coils
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/dueprocess2006/3coilsoutsidepassengerside.jpg)
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/dueprocess2006/3coilsoutsidedriverside.jpg)
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/dueprocess2006/3coilsoutside.jpg)
Here are the measurments i took(Every measurement took from item to the ground ~ in garage where level and smooth)... If i need a different measurement let me know and i will get it on here!!!!!!!
1.) Very back end of frame - Driver(Left) 23 3/4" Pass(Right) 23 3/4"
2.) Rear bottom Leaf spring - L 13 3/4" R 14"
3.) Rear Fenders - L 33 1/8" R 34 1/2"
4.) Front Fenders - L 30 5/8" 32 1/4"
5.) Center of LCA bolt - L 10 3/8" R 10 5/8"
6.) Front Cab Body mounts - L 11 3/4 R 12 1/4
If i can do anything else recommended just let me know!!!!! You are a great bunch of guys and really can't say enough how much i thank you guys for all the input!!!!!
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Due...d, Yes, that is the spot on the frame I'm talking about, as dumb as it looks, it was there the day the truck was built. What is the round object above the jack stand? Is that one of those dumb weights that you see hanging on various parts of a vehicle? I don't think I've ever seen one there, if that's what it is. By your measurements, the problem is in the front. As I said earlier, the area that is the fartherest off in measurement is where the problem is & the rest (less variation at the rear wheelwells) is just the result. I would still like to know the distance from the frame to axle in the rear. Boy! The back is REALLY high, higher than even a stock 4x4 it looks like. I realize the back goes up as the front came down, but WOW! Do the rear springs look new? Even a flip kit would really not be enough I wouldn't think. That's a serious lean, you gotta find what's wrong, I don't feel a spring shim in the case is the right thing to do. Lorne
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Due...d, Yes, that is the spot on the frame I'm talking about, as dumb as it looks, it was there the day the truck was built. What is the round object above the jack stand? Is that one of those dumb weights that you see hanging on various parts of a vehicle? I don't think I've ever seen one there, if that's what it is. By your measurements, the problem is in the front. As I said earlier, the area that is the fartherest off in measurement is where the problem is & the rest (less variation at the rear wheelwells) is just the result. I would still like to know the distance from the frame to axle in the rear. Boy! The back is REALLY high, higher than even a stock 4x4 it looks like. I realize the back goes up as the front came down, but WOW! Do the rear springs look new? Even a flip kit would really not be enough I wouldn't think. That's a serious lean, you gotta find what's wrong, I don't feel a spring shim in the case is the right thing to do. Lorne
Cool, i am happy to hear the frame is suppose to be like that there!!!!! From what i am told the round thing is found on all Diesel's due to the vibration from the engine. Guess it is a dampener for the drive shaft or something to that nature... I really don't know!
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The spot on the frame where the bend is located is where the catalytic converter went. All trucks had this...
Keep in mine NO vehicle ever made will be level at all for corners. spring steel will settle at different rates and we are talking about a 25 year old truck.....
4.) Front Fenders - L 30 5/8" 32 1/4" = 1-5/8" differece
5.) Center of LCA bolt - L 10 3/8" R 10 5/8" = 1/4" difference
6.) Front Cab Body mounts - L 11 3/4 R 12 1/4 = 1/2" difference
The problem is in the front. Keep in mind none of this really means much (other than finding the source) until you get the frame straight. If it has been hit, everything will be off. I would check the body bushings condition also...
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The spot on the frame where the bend is located is where the catalytic converter went. All trucks had this...
Keep in mine NO vehicle ever made will be level at all for corners. spring steel will settle at different rates and we are talking about a 25 year old truck.....
4.) Front Fenders - L 30 5/8" 32 1/4" = 1-5/8" differece
5.) Center of LCA bolt - L 10 3/8" R 10 5/8" = 1/4" difference
6.) Front Cab Body mounts - L 11 3/4 R 12 1/4 = 1/2" difference
The problem is in the front. Keep in mind none of this really means much (other than finding the source) until you get the frame straight. If it has been hit, everything will be off. I would check the body bushings condition also...
If the body bushings are in the same condition as the suspension bushing, then they are probly not any good - here are some pics of the LCA's and you can see the bushing..... I have a full set of Energy black bushings... Just did not want to put in till new LCA/UCA's and so on, should i put them in now?
You can see it real good here, they are almost all like this!
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/dueprocess2006/Frontsuspensionview.jpg)
other side!
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/dueprocess2006/Frontsuspensiondriverside.jpg)
Dry Rotted
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/dueprocess2006/Framefrontview1.jpg)
Barely Hanging on!!!!
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/dueprocess2006/Frontsuspensionpassengerside.jpg)
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I am talking about the body bushings not the suspension bushings.
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I am talking about the body bushings not the suspension bushings.
I realize that, that is why i said if they are in the same shape as the suspension bushing(which as you seen - almost completely gone) then they are probly not in good shape unless they are more durable.
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Measure from here and compare L to R
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/Sabaka454/measure.gif)
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Measure from here and compare L to R
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/Sabaka454/measure.gif)
that measurement is : Drivers(L) 4" Passenger(R) 5"
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If those are different that is a problem...
Is the spring seated correctly?
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If those are different that is a problem...
Is the spring seated correctly?
yep, i cleaned the heck out of the lower and upper/CA's and made sure the seat was perfect. I went and checked the measurment again using a smaller device to measure with this time and it still 3/4" off from drivers to passenger side. So i am guessing that is a frame problem for sure? Will a frame place fix it @ that tolerance...... Not really sure about how much a frame shop will deal with before they say they are not touching it!
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Due, If the spring is seated correctly, as you say, then you have one of the following or a combination of: A bad/weak spring (unlikely since they are new & the old ones made it sit crooked too), ALLOT of weight difference side to side (again unlikely), the upper spring "seat" in the cradle is damaged/humped upward or the spring "seat" in the lower control arm is dipped/bent downward. The frame itself isn't to blame when this measurement is off (on our Chevys truck anyway), this is a suspension/bolt-on problem. Lorne
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Was the measurement taken with the truck off the ground or on the ground?
If you want to rule out the springs as the problem, swap them left to right.
The spring has a location seat at the top, are they centered over that, or sitting on it? If those measurements are off, I would suspect the spring or the lower control arm, but you control arms look ok...
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I agree, it's not the frame my man, that's your crossmember and lower control arm. If it's an inch difference then either something is bent or you have defective springs if they are installed correctly. Swap em like Capt suggested.
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I agree, it's not the frame my man, that's your crossmember and lower control arm. If it's an inch difference then either something is bent or you have defective springs if they are installed correctly. Swap em like Capt suggested.
Was the measurement taken with the truck off the ground or on the ground?
If you want to rule out the springs as the problem, swap them left to right.
The spring has a location seat at the top, are they centered over that, or sitting on it? If those measurements are off, I would suspect the spring or the lower control arm, but you control arms look ok...
I am starting to get the hang of this guys! When i put everything back in, i swaped the springs just cause i was curious! I will admit after cleaning the heck out of the uper and lower CA's the driver's upper arm seat did look i little bent(out of shape), but when i seated the spring in i had a tele-scoping viewer and as i used the floor jack to raise the lower CA and seat the spring i kept making sure it was correct top and bootom. I am 99% sure the spring are seated correctly.
The measurement was taken with the truck sitting on the ground under it's own weight.
This cross-member ~ which one am I looking for(below oil pan,under cab,ect....) and i will post some pics and keep narrowing this down? Is there a way to tell if i have a bent CA without taking them both off and comparing them to one another?
Thanks guys for the continued help in my reoccuring question sessions!
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If you have a laser level you can make a point of reference from the front or rear of the crossmember and measure to the center of the lower ball joint. If it's physically twisted though you should be able to tell. I would give it a once over and if it all looks ok swap those springs.
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Wow, slow down there tiger! In the pics it looks like the control arm bushings are shot as can be. Both sides are busted and hanging out and the drivers side looks to be totally gone. If that is the case then the lower control arm is teeter-totering on the spring. The bushing side is going down and the ball joint side is going up while the truck is on all four wheels. That could easily be 2" with the leverage/pivot point of the spring.
Put some new bushings and ball joints in it. Looks like it needs it anyhow, then recheck it. Matt
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If you have a laser level you can make a point of reference from the front or rear of the crossmember and measure to the center of the lower ball joint. If it's physically twisted though you should be able to tell. I would give it a once over and if it all looks ok swap those springs.
I have a laser level! Will get the measurement today, i am suppose to be off @ 2:30(we are'nt doing anything anyway)!!! But the swapping the springs for a 3rd time?
Wow, slow down there tiger! In the pics it looks like the control arm bushings are shot as can be. Both sides are busted and hanging out and the drivers side looks to be totally gone. If that is the case then the lower control arm is teeter-totering on the spring. The bushing side is going down and the ball joint side is going up while the truck is on all four wheels. That could easily be 2" with the leverage/pivot point of the spring.
Put some new bushings and ball joints in it. Looks like it needs it anyhow, then recheck it. Matt
I have some new bushing but found out i don't have ll of them. Guess i will get on summit and order the rest of what i need and get to work on replacing them all.
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Ordered these this morning :D!!!!! Ships out on monday :).... If anyone wants to look and verify it is the right ones!!!!!!!!
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=ENS%2D3%2D3161G&view=1&N=700+150+4294908216+4294908213+4294925044+4294925130+4294839050+4294892674+400008+
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To remove this UCA, do i take off the little bolts in the center / or do i take the big bolts off the end of each side?
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/dueprocess2006/UCA2.jpg)
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/dueprocess2006/UCA1.jpg)
To remove this LCA, do i take the U-Bolts off / or do i take the big bolts off the end of each side?
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/dueprocess2006/LCA2.jpg)
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/dueprocess2006/LCA1-1.jpg)
The drivers side is pretty hard to get too, due to the steering box if it is the end ones. Not to mention that would be some work with huge open/boxed end wrenches!!!!!!!!! Thanks guys!
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Upper control arm comes off with the 2 inner bolts (Keep the shims together!!!)
Lower comes off with the 2 u-bolts.
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Yep you take the nuts off the studs in the center of the shaft, the studs stay there but you have to keep your shims behind the shaft from falling out when you take it loose. Not a real big deal but you should put them back in so the alignment is easier to do later.
Take off the arm, clamp the shaft in between the bolt/stud holes in a solid bench vice. Take off the end nuts and beat out the bushings without beating up the shaft or control arm. At some point you may have to switch what is clamped in the vise. (shaft or arm) It's not easy if you've never done it. Keep the arm on the shaft and with the old bushings out slide the new ones on the shaft as far as they'll go into the arm, then "tap" the new bushings in where the old ones were. Try to hit on the outer sleeve that is the part that squeezes into the arm.
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Bushing replacement is NOT fun. I got so frustrated with mine, that I paid our local machine shop 100 bucks for them to do it. Money WELL spent.
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Yes you'll need a press or a jig. A ball joint press will work also.
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Bushing replacement is NOT fun. I got so frustrated with mine, that I paid our local machine shop 100 bucks for them to do it. Money WELL spent.
Yes you'll need a press or a jig. A ball joint press will work also.
Thanks for the heads up!!! Guess i will go and have them put in(hobby shop on base) so i know it is done right and i don't screw it up! I picked up some MEK thinner today so i could get the arms and such clean. Gonna paint em black till i have everything done, and start the bag job!
Thanks everyone who put input on how to get the LCA's and UCA's off!!!
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Here is what mine looked like before:
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o317/jjsabol/Truck%20Pictures/dda2.jpg)
After:
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o317/jjsabol/IM001020.jpg)
I used this procedure for rebuilding my front end - I even used http://www.performancesuspension.com/ components.
http://www.73-87.com/7387garage/chassis_suspension/frontend.htm
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Looks good. What kind of paint
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Eastwoods rust converter, then Eastwoods rust encapsulator, then Eastwood's Chasis black. It's Eastwoods chasis system.
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Eastwoods rust converter, then Eastwoods rust encapsulator, then Eastwood's Chasis black. It's Eastwoods chasis system.
Thanks man! I got me some MEK Thinner from SW Paints. I am going to clean them back up to shiny and then do the same system you did! I love eastwood, they have great powders for Powder Coating(all stage powders)and i have never had a single problem with any of their products as long as they were applied correctly!!!!
Your came out looking awesome, good job and thanks for the pics and info!!!!!!!