73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => 73-87 Chevy & GMC Trucks => Topic started by: eventhorizon66 on June 06, 2008, 02:21:25 pm
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I thought I'd get some input from you guys about why in particular you like these trucks. Most of us just own one, other's have owned or currently own more than they can count on both hands (you know who you are).
But I'm starting to have my doubts about whether or not to keep mine. I have already spent an embarrassing amount of money on my truck and it's not even in the ballpark of something I would consider a fun-to-drive little truck. Who knows what it will take before I can call it a hot rod. I can't justify selling it now (I need to reclaim some of my investment by driving it some). But maybe I should consider eventually giving it up to pursue another project, like a '32 coupe. I really have no interest in owning several cars, just one daily and one hot rod.
Basically I want to know why you guys think I shouldn't give up on it.
I'll get the ball rolling. First, I love the way it looks. Seriously, in my most unbiased, objective opinion, these trucks have to be the all-time best-looking pickups. I catch myself admiring mine all the time. Second, there is some emotional attachment, being my first car and originally owned by my late father. But sometimes I wish he had kept his '71 Vette instead.
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Parts interchange easily, fairly simple to work on and the looks of course. Some day when all the 67-72 are all gobbled up these will bring high dollar. I just like the body style mostly.
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If you used this truck as a learning experience then forget about the $ because that is priceless. It educated you and once you put a dollar amount on your trucks they no longer hold their value to YOU. So either you love it or you don't. If you love it keep it, and if you don't then unload it.
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Hard to tell. It's a love-hate relationship. But I loved it alot more before it became such a money pit. Your definitely right about the education angle and I have thought of that before.
I guess this was just a stupid question, because the answer boils down to personal taste, which can't be qualified. I guess I'm worried that what I really learned is that I don't enjoy working on any automotive project. I can do a good job in the end but nothing puts me in a bad mood faster than tinkering with my truck.
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You must learn patience and finding methods/solutions rather than throwing tools. We've all gotten mad but step back and say to yourself "Self, it's only a truck dude" Then have a beer and tell your woman to help ease your pain. If you thoroughly don't enjoy working on one of these trucks you won't enjoy working on any car/truck. Trust me!
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Looks like you should be driving newer cars/trucks that require less maintenance. You've got to have great drive to keep fixing up these things and if there's no tingly feeling when you just complete something and step back and admire it then I really feel sorry for you.
I just love working on my truck and my newest car project as well and there are no doubts about loving to work on these things.
Decisions....decisions... ???
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Me being a brit it has to do with having a vehicle nearly as wide as a lane, but everything on these trucks is where it should be and by far the easiest to work on,and that "get in my way and your history" look they have from a euro box's rearview mirror... ;D
I'd find it easier and less work pulling my tranny than trying to remove my girlfriends failed power steering pump on her Pt cruiser (bread van).
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I have three of these truck right now. My fiance has two. I have only gave up one of these trucks, it was my first vehicle I ever owned. It was a 76 chevy longbox with a wood floor. I was talked into dismantling it to get parts for my 1980 build. I regret it and wish I could go back and smack myself. I loved that truck and miss it dearly. I have never sold one since and I want every single one I see. Not just the pretty ones but every single one I see. It's almost something I can't explain. People are asking me all the time how much money I have into my blue truck. It's not about the money to me. I absolutely love working on them, it's like nothing else. And I have no answer. I have every receipt for ever part for all my trucks and I can tell you it is a lot but I have no reason to add them up. I don't know how to share your viewpoint so I thought I would share this side of the fence. I'll say it again, I will never sell one again but I hope to purchase more of these trucks someday. Ok, I'll quite rambling
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its those square round lines, man. timeless
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Truth be told, I can admit that I am very immature when it comes to my temper and that's my real problem. I do a very good job controlling it with other people, but I'm very lousy at controlling it toward myself and my mistakes. I just need to lighten up in general and not try to be such a perfectionist.
Even though I'm not satisfied with my truck in its current state, I have learned a few things about working on this machine, where not to waste money in the future, and a whole volumes in "expectations verses reality". Example: 250 hp isn't nearly enough power to get my blood pumping, and that 700R4 has got to go (any way you slice it - it's just not a performance trans). I have visions of a fire-breathing 383 and a TH400 in the future. We'll see, thanks for all the advice, encouragement, and general ramblings guys. And thanks for letting my vent my frustrations a little.
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I don't think there's anything wrong with reaching for perfection. It's a trait we need more of in this 'throw away' culture in which we live. I enjoy your posts and hope you continue to share your truck mods with us. Never having the background for fixing up old iron, I'm one who thoroughly enjoys reading most of the stuff you guys do with your trucks. It gives me inspiration. If you need to vent a bit, there's no better place than here. It's a place where a guy can get listened to. Now get back to work. We want to see your next mod..
:D
and -thanks for all you've already added to this site.
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THE SIDE IMPACT EXPLOSIONS MAN ::)! lmao, naa, i love the looks, how solid it feels when i'm driving it, how easy/normally cheap it is to work on...
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I'm with Dunedigger, I want everyone I see, and it is a constant battle to keep from buying everyone that I can afford. I guess the thing I like the most is the unlimited combinations, and setups that can be done with these truck. I am going to an auction today to see about buying a beatup 01 3/4 ton for the drive train. (Wish me luck) It has a 6.0 and I want it for my extended cab. Guys on this site have everything from the LS1 engines, Olds hotrod engines, to Cummins deisels. You can lift it, drop it, chop it, prostreet it or make it an open top roadster.They have all the disc brake, power steering, power brakes, and air conditioning systems that have to be custom built to install on most anything that is pre 70, but don't have the over engineered electrical systems that the 88 newer have. When tuned right, gas mileage is not bad.( My 86 extended cab gets better mileage than my 04 extended cab) .Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but in my eye, these are art. Like Vile said, if you can't stand working on these, then noththing else would be better. Once you get the bugs worked out, then you will enjoy it alot more. The problem is most people just patch the problems, so it is not ever properly repaired, and keeps coming back.
I disagree on the 700 tranny not being performance minded. Like everything else on this truck, it can be built for it. None of these trucks were performance minded, thats why we rebuild them to our taste. Hang in there my friend, you know what attracted you to these trucks in the first place, focus on that and learn to take a break when you start to get frustrated.Most of everyone here has gotten frustrated, and lost their temper at one time.
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and that 700R4 has got to go (any way you slice it - it's just not a performance trans).
Yikes! The 700R4 is cheap and easy (like my ex wife) to build and if done correctly will give you much better performance than the TH400
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What do you have behind your 454, Vile?
I just absolutely hate the huge rpm drop between 1st and 2nd. Maybe a gear vendors would be nice but that's big $$$. What is your opinion of the gear vendors over/under-drive units for a performance application?
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Low-tech, that is part of the appeal on these trucks. I LOVE wrenching on my old 73 C20. Heck, you can climb into the engine bay with a beer and a sandwich, a lot more room in there compared to working on these new cars. Most times when my 73 breaks down (and its seldom) I can usually fix it myself on the spot. And these trucks were built to LAST! I grew up on a 450-acre ranch as a kid, and our family used those chevy trucks HARD. Used to spend summers baling hay and we relied on our Chevy/GMC trucks for towing, hauling, you name it.
And for those of us to actually use these trucks for their intended purpose, we know the value of an old 3/4 ton longbed. You can haul anything, anywhere. I had my 1990 Toyota 4Runner (I call it the lil yuppie truck) overheat, blow head gaskets and crack the cylinder heads... and I needed to tow it to a repair shop (save on the towing bill). Went to U-Haul to rent a car hauler trailer, and the guy at the counter was asking me if I was sure that my old 73 C20 could handle pulling a 4Runner. I just looked at him like he was crazy and laughed. She sure may not be pretty, but she has it where it counts.
Have to agree with others about driving a big ole truck too, feels great to be cruising along in a big hunk of old iron, loud and proud. My wife doesn't understand the appeal of that old truck. Don't matter, I do.
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If you don't want the big drop between 1st and 2nd, get a built 200R4.
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IDK, maybe I didn't learn anything when it comes to transmissions. And maybe I wouldn't have such problem with the gear spread if my engine had more torque. Torque cures all ails.
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What attracted me......?
When i first understood what a pickup truck was, these trucks were there. These were the "perfect" truck for the time, and really it still is in my opinion. I immediately knew that the 73 to current 76ish (this is when i first knew about trucks) were much better looking than the 67-72 series (although some people would beg to differ and i, admittedly, concede that the 67-72 were really the first "modern" looking pickups to come off the assembly line; Anything before 60 looks---wierd and really most of the 60's models look wierd.) In addition, i intrinsically "knew" that this series blew away anything ford or chrysler had to offer although thinking back on it, their models actually looked ok compared to what ford and chrysler are "pooping" out today. (Exception; ram) Actually, all models, regardless of brand or model looked good from say, 68ish to 91ish including imports.
i mean even the lettering that they originally used---you know the cartoonish letters that don't line up; As if the person that designed them was toasted when s/he designed them. Even that i love---it looks so cool---- so far out---so GMish. i think they stopped using that type of lettering around 80?
Just everything about it---the styling, the two-tone paint (although this was started on earlier serieses?) Even the various wheel covers, i feel, were the best ever produced. (i will start a different thread on this topic.)
b) But being practical about it, i like these trucks because i think they are probably the cheapest easiest vehicles to maintain/keep running. Not to mention being extremely rugged. Being that it was produced for 14 yrs, really 18yrs, parts are so easy and cheap to find. i've learned so much about cars from working on it. The only possible exception may be the 78-88 gm a/g bodies as far as parts availability/cheapness.
So my vote is to keep it;
1)What exact engine do you have? i may have a similar set up, with similar "behavior." From 0-35 there is nothing, (i have the 2.56 rear) but a few weeks ago, i "opened it up" for the first time just to see what it would do and after about 35mph and when the secondaries open up (q-jet) i was impressed. Of course, our speed needs may be, and probably are, different. NOTE: i have the crate 260hp version.
a) also, are you sure you have 250 going to the rear wheels? You have to remember that with the weight of the truck, the only way to go fast(er) is to spend more money. Although, still relatively cheap, comparitively speaking.
2) what is your daily driver and what are your speed needs for the truck/hot rod?
3) actually, perhaps more importantly, what rear gear does the truck have? This could be the key to everything.
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We've got the same engine Stewart and I'm absolutely positive I don't have all 250 hp going to the rear wheels (more like 200 figuring 20% drivetrain loss). This is my daily for now, so it's gonna stay just the way it is for now, like it or not. Rear gears are 3.73s. With a very light foot I got around 17 mpg (70-80% highway) on my last tank, and my worst so far is 12.5 mpg (<50% highway).
The trucks fine, it's just not the dramatic improvement I was expecting over my old 305 with 3.08s. Well at least it doesn't blow blue smoke on startup or ping going up steep hills, lol. Gotta accentuate the positive :D
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What do you have behind your 454, Vile?
I just absolutely hate the huge rpm drop between 1st and 2nd. Maybe a gear vendors would be nice but that's big $$$. What is your opinion of the gear vendors over/under-drive units for a performance application?
For now it's a TH400 that's built very strong to handle the 454. I have a 4L80 in progress but I am waiting on that til I'm all done with the body work. A 2004R is a simple transmission also just like the 700R4 to build up. So unless you have over 500HP don't be afraid to build one. Personally I would never waste all that money on an overdrive unit.
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A question, Vile: the only versions of the 4L80's that I'm aware of require a computer to control them. Was there a non-electronic version? We are talking about what is basically a TH400 with a .75 OD gear, right?
And the main thing that attracts me to the GV unit is not just the overdrive, but mainly the gear-spliting ability for tight Muncie-like shifts. I always thought a TH400 with GV would be the ultimate performance trans. But yes the $2500 price tag is definitely steep. For that I could build three overdrive transmissions.
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What are your 1/4 mile and 0-60 requirements for the vehicle?
What does the truck run now in both parameters?
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I have no idea what my current numbers are and really don't have a dead set requirement. I want it to feel "just right" according to the seat of my pants.
I originally had my sights on something that could easily hang with a stock Lightning or SRT-10. Then I decided drivability and practicality were more important as it would be my daily for a while. And I probably didn't have the $$$ to attain this goal anyways.
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A stock lightning runs mid to high 15's, so that shouldn't be to hard to achieve.
When i get to it, i will measure 1/4 mile and 0-60 times; This is another benefit of the new digital speedo i installed (see other post). i did not know of these features until after i recieved the gauge and read the instructions.
i too, am "underwhelmed" with the performance of this engine. After all, it's advertised as 260HP. But i mostly attribute my "lukewarm" performance to not having headers and especially having a tall (2.56) final drive gear.
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the 260HP crate motor is rated at the crankshaft. then you got to bolt accessories and a drivetrain to it... and you are going to loose about 60hp through the drivetrain. STILL with the peak 350s nearing 180hp from the factory, that is a decent upgrade.
Ligtnings run high 13's in the 1/4. I have driven my neighbors. AND they put 335hp/400lb/ft to the tires completely stock.
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Maybe TPI and a rear-mounted turbo. Now, if only someone were doing something like this so I could have a good reference.
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Stewart is probably referring to the original Lightnings of 93-95 with their 240 HP 351. Them blown L's though from 99-03 are darn quick and easy to make even faster.
Why I like these trucks and why I purchased one as my weekend toy:
1. Reminds me of my youth. I was born in 1975 and graduated high school in 1993. Most of my classmates who had a truck, had one of these. Some had the 88+ but they were generally too expensive to attain. My first vehicle was an 81 Jimmy 2wd 305 2bbl w/ 3.08 posi. Loved it. Short on power though (hence the trading in of it to an 88 Mustang GT 5 speed lol)
2. Original inspiration was a white 86 short step 2wd that was mildly customized that I saw when I was 11 or 12. Fell in love with it's looks.
3. Simplicity. When I was in the market for a weekend toy I contemplated getting a 5.0 liter Mustang again, but older computer-controlled cars wasn't wooing me to buy one. The fact that these things are so simple was a huge bonus. I hate chasing electrical gremlins and did that with a 90 Daytona for a while. No fun.
4. Good looks. Enough said.
5. Availability of parts. Millions made over 14-18 years means parts aren't hard to find and they aren't as valuable yet as the 67-72 trucks.
6. Cheap for speed. A SBC and a TH350 is about as cheap as it gets to make power with.
Downside is the factory-installed rust that all these seem to have, and the biggest thing I wish GM would have done is built an extended cab model. I would absolutely love one.
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Rust is one place I am really blessed, as this truck has slept in a garage it's whole life. There's another reason not the get rid of it. Thanks for reminding me. I'll never find another project that has so little rust.
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Personally I would go with a crate 383 from a well known builder, like Smeding Performance, Awesome Engines or even the GM ZZ383. That combined with the 700R4 and 3.73 you already have I'm sure will make you grin every time you push the pedal. You bought a crate 260 HP 350? I wouldn't doubt if that's the same or very similar to the stock 215 HP 350's that came in early 90's GM trucks. When they make crate motors, they have higher HP ratings and (I may be wrong, feel free to correct me) that I think is because they don't have to rate them with all the accessories on or they use a different rating system. I would have gone for the 290 HP crate motor at the very least but that's just me.
I just dropped around $2000 after everything was said and done to put new Dart heads and a Comp Cams cam in my truck and I'm a little bummed. But, I'm hoping for big improvements when I swap the 2.76 gear for a 3.42. The 1st gear on a TH350 is quite a bit taller than on a 700R4.
So it looks like abnormal aspiration might be the best avenue to ultimately reach my goal. Maybe TPI and a rear-mounted turbo. Now, if only someone were doing something like this so I could have a good reference.
A 383 would be cheaper, though. And I don't need quite as much hp as I weigh about 600 or so pounds less than a Lightning and almost 1000 lbs less than an SRT-10, assuming I tip the scales at 4000.
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Stewart is probably referring to the original Lightnings of 93-95 with their...........
Yes, i was and the only reason i knew about these is because i beat one e.t.-wise in the 1/4 by a few molecules---i ran a 15.4. But he still won the race because i "broke out."
i don't follow ford so i had no idea there was a second generation of lightining.
2) Even so, getting the truck into the 13 sec bracket is not too hard.
a) the fan-type superchargers would probably be easier/cheaper at this point as compared to a turbo system.
b) there are head options that are not too costly. More on this later.
c) you may want to go the auxilary overdrive route and go with 4.56 or lower gears. What trans are you running now?
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Personally I would go with a crate 383 from a well known builder, like Smeding Performance, Awesome Engines or even the GM ZZ383. That combined with the 700R4 and 3.73 you already have I'm sure will make you grin every time you push the pedal. You bought a crate 260 HP 350? I wouldn't doubt if that's the same or very similar to the stock 215 HP 350's that came in early 90's GM trucks. When they make crate motors, they have higher HP ratings and (I may be wrong, feel free to correct me) that I think is because they don't have to rate them with all the accessories on or they use a different rating system. I would have gone for the 290 HP crate motor at the very least but that's just me.
I just dropped around $2000 after everything was said and done to put new Dart heads and a Comp Cams cam in my truck and I'm a little bummed. But, I'm hoping for big improvements when I swap the 2.76 gear for a 3.42. The 1st gear on a TH350 is quite a bit taller than on a 700R4.
First, I didn't expect to meet my "Lightning" goal with my current engine. It was a compromise so I could also address other aspects of my truck like brakes, suspension, and little extras rather than spend all my dough on an engine. I based the hp rating not on GM's rating but on a Chevy High Performance dyno test (http://www.chevyasylum.com/chp/goodwrench1-2.html) where they got 265 with no accessories so 240 to 250 is more like it. And I don't like the 290 crate engine at all. It is just a goodwrench engine with a $350 camshaft, LOL (which is too big for the low compression). I can get an appropriately sized cam and lifters at Summit for $90. Also before I decided on the compromise, I considered a Smeding engine, called them up and wasn't too impressed with guy I talked too, so they're out. I was actually considering this (http://www.masperformance.com/420_383.htm) engine from MAS. I'm glad I didn't because I could build that same engine myself for less and have the added benefit of the learning experience.
Also as far as your combo goes, its definitely your gearing that's got you bummed out. What stall are you running? That cam probably wants something in the 2200-2500 range.
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Maybe TPI and a rear-mounted turbo. Now, if only someone were doing something like this so I could have a good reference.
Can't help you with that. Don't know anyone doing that... :D
Keep in mind, if you want to pump some power out of one, you need to build it accordingly.
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Keep in mind, if you want to pump some power out of one, you need to build it accordingly.
Nah, I'll just force feed it until I burn a hole in a few pistons or twist a rod into a pretzel. Then rebuild it. I want to get my money's worth out of the stock rotating assembly after all. :D
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That is what I am doing, but I don't plan to burn a hole through. I also plan to not push more than 5lbs too. Key word being "plan".
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Keep in mind, if you want to pump some power out of one, you need to build it accordingly.
Nah, I'll just force feed it until I burn a hole in a few pistons or twist a rod into a pretzel. Then rebuild it. I want to get my money's worth out of the stock rotating assembly after all. :D
100 hp shot of nitrous should do it, 200 would be more fun.
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Personally I would go with a crate 383 from a well known builder, like Smeding Performance, Awesome Engines or even the GM ZZ383. That combined with the 700R4 and 3.73 you already have I'm sure will make you grin every time you push the pedal. You bought a crate 260 HP 350? I wouldn't doubt if that's the same or very similar to the stock 215 HP 350's that came in early 90's GM trucks. When they make crate motors, they have higher HP ratings and (I may be wrong, feel free to correct me) that I think is because they don't have to rate them with all the accessories on or they use a different rating system. I would have gone for the 290 HP crate motor at the very least but that's just me.
I just dropped around $2000 after everything was said and done to put new Dart heads and a Comp Cams cam in my truck and I'm a little bummed. But, I'm hoping for big improvements when I swap the 2.76 gear for a 3.42. The 1st gear on a TH350 is quite a bit taller than on a 700R4.
First, I didn't expect to meet my "Lightning" goal with my current engine. It was a compromise so I could also address other aspects of my truck like brakes, suspension, and little extras rather than spend all my dough on an engine. I based the hp rating not on GM's rating but on a Chevy High Performance dyno test (http://www.chevyasylum.com/chp/goodwrench1-2.html) where they got 265 with no accessories so 240 to 250 is more like it. And I don't like the 290 crate engine at all. It is just a goodwrench engine with a $350 camshaft, LOL (which is too big for the low compression). I can get an appropriately sized cam and lifters at Summit for $90. Also before I decided on the compromise, I considered a Smeding engine, called them up and wasn't too impressed with guy I talked too, so they're out. I was actually considering this (http://www.masperformance.com/420_383.htm) engine from MAS. I'm glad I didn't because I could build that same engine myself for less and have the added benefit of the learning experience.
Also as far as your combo goes, its definitely your gearing that's got you bummed out. What stall are you running? That cam probably wants something in the 2200-2500 range.
Ya'll have me thinking twice about buying a crate engine for my project truck (72 C20), if the performance isn't quite up to par. Maybe I should just take my original longblock 350 to the machine shop and have it redone.
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Lowbuck:
If you can wait, probably within 1 or 2 weeks, i'm going to run the truck up against the clock in both 1/4 and 0-60 times. i never really bought the truck for performance---only to go to home depot and to move stuff around. However, after about 35mph the truck really starts to move.
i feel that the crate 260 is probably best suited for camaros, novas, chevettes etc. But we'll see what it can do.
Please elaborate on your engine building plans/desires; Would you rather buy a turn-key engine(with guarantee) or would you rather build your own?
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If you are wanting just a replacement, the crate motors are fine. If you want to buy a performance engine, you need to step up to something else. You can get them to make good power by changing stuff as you go though.
Here is a 8 part series of the Crate 350 build from the stock 239 hp / 324 lb-ft. to a blown 471 hp / 452 lb-ft
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/46320_gm_350_crate_engine_build/index.html
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/46326_gm_350_crate_engine_build_ii/index.html
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/46359_gm_350_crate_engine_build_iii/index.html
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/46364_gm_350_crate_engine_build_iv/index.html
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/46370_gm_350_crate_engine_build_v/index.html
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/46438_gm_350_crate_engine_build_vi/index.html
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/46461_gm_350_crate_engine_build_vii/index.html
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/46467_gm_350_crate_engine_build_viii/index.html
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Lowbuck:
If you can wait, probably within 1 or 2 weeks, i'm going to run the truck up against the clock in both 1/4 and 0-60 times. i never really bought the truck for performance---only to go to home depot and to move stuff around. However, after about 35mph the truck really starts to move.
i feel that the crate 260 is probably best suited for camaros, novas, chevettes etc. But we'll see what it can do.
Please elaborate on your engine building plans/desires; Would you rather buy a turn-key engine(with guarantee) or would you rather build your own?
To be honest, my 73 C20 is a bit of a slowpoke under 35mph as well (bone-stock GM Goodwrench 350, Th350 trans, 4:10 gears in a 14-bolt corporate rear axle), but once I put my foot into it and the secondaries open up, she picks up speed fairly quick for a 3/4 ton truck. Same purpose though, I have it for hauling cargo.
My project goal is to build up a "sleeper", stock-looking 1972 C20 Cheyenne camper special that will be a weekend cruiser, but pack a performance engine and be fairly quick; I want the truck to cruise decent at highway speeds when needed. I bought the truck at a great deal, without an engine. She originally was packing a 350 longblock. Would prefer to have an engine built right by a pro, with a guarantee/warranty. I can rebuild a motor to stock specs okay, but time is a factor and I don't have shop space at home. My project truck is sitting at a shop now, waiting on a motor. I have been talking to a local machine shop and got some quotes. I had picked up a 350 longblock (original) out of a guy's parts truck (same vintage, 1972 C10) but it is worn out and needs a complete rebuild.
I am now considering going the 383 longblock route, backed with a 700R4 transmission. I have to decide on a game plan soon. Will have to consider my project truck's gearing as well (same 14-bolt corporate axles, not sure what gear ratio).
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If you are wanting just a replacement, the crate motors are fine. If you want to buy a performance engine, you need to step up to something else. You can get them to make good power by changing stuff as you go though.
Here is a 8 part series of the Crate 350 build from the stock 239 hp / 324 lb-ft. to a blown 471 hp / 452 lb-ft
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/46320_gm_350_crate_engine_build/index.html
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/46326_gm_350_crate_engine_build_ii/index.html
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/46359_gm_350_crate_engine_build_iii/index.html
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/46364_gm_350_crate_engine_build_iv/index.html
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/46370_gm_350_crate_engine_build_v/index.html
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/46438_gm_350_crate_engine_build_vi/index.html
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/46461_gm_350_crate_engine_build_vii/index.html
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/46467_gm_350_crate_engine_build_viii/index.html
Thanks for that, this is a good article (I have read it before). One of the reasons I still run a Goodwrench 350 motor in my beater '73 is that my dad loved those engines and considered them very good starting points for a build-up. Dad built and ran a Goodwrench 350 in his 1975 Jimmy and that rig was fast on the take-off! I believe it had 3:73 gears, but not certain.
"The Goodwrench 350 is unquestionably bread-and-butter basic. While all production small-blocks have employed a one-piece rear-main seal design since 1986, the Goodwrench 350 is assembled in Mexico and retains the classic two-piece pre-’86 design. This makes it an excellent choice for a basic hot rod motor for all pre-’86 cars since you don’t have to purchase a new flexplate or flywheel.
Starting with a four-bolt main cap block, the 350 employs a standard cast crank and cast-aluminum flat-top pistons with ductile-iron 5/64-inch rings. Chevy claims the compression is a wheezy 8.1:1, but after the test was over, we measured everything and came up with a slightly better 8.4:1. The good news with this low compression is that the Goodwrench engine should even run on 87-octane gas. The downside is that this low compression certainly sacrifices power."
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I based my decision partially on these articles as well. They are good motors if what you want is stock for now and to soup it up down the road. But I think if you want a performance motor now, either build it yourself, find a reputable local builder, or start with a decent crate. I'd probably be happier now with a GMPP 350HO crate. Even if that turns out not to be enough power, you've still got the desirable vortec heads to work with.
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I based my decision partially on these articles as well. They are good motors if what you want is stock for now and to soup it up down the road. But I think if you want a performance motor now, either build it yourself, find a reputable local builder, or start with a decent crate. I'd probably be happier now with a GMPP 350HO crate. Even if that turns out not to be enough power, you've still got the desirable vortec heads to work with.
I think you are missing the point... that the GM Goodwrench 350 can be a good crate motor to start with; swap out cam, install Vortec heads, and drive the heck out of it without killing your wallet.
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I think you are missing the point... that the GM Goodwrench 350 can be a good crate motor to start with; swap out cam, install Vortec heads, and drive the heck out of it without killing your wallet.
No, I get it. The point I was trying to make is if I were and in your shoes and looking for a mild performance motor without "shop space at home" preferring "an engine built by a pro with a guarantee/warranty" and where "time is a factor." The 350HO is the clear winner over the Goodwrench.
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Actually, this is a good post in that it brings to light the question, "which order should you modify the engine for more power."
i think most people can agree that headers and dual exhaust would be a good first step due to the added power and (usually)improved mpg and relatively low cost.
But what next? For instance, i think these heads:
http://www.araoengineering.com/Chevy/chevysmb.htm
And this induction system:
http://www.inglese.com/Products/ChevySmallBlock.asp
would be the ultimate street engine for me.
But what about all the steps in between?
We can all probably agree that if the air is under pressure (turbo or supercharger) and the fuel is under pressure---whether thru mechanical or electronic fuel injection (electronic is probably better) that these would be the ultimate, end-of-the-line for the engine at least for the air and fuel systems.
However, what are the ultimate for all the other systems in the engine and what is the best order to modify them in?
My proposed list based on my knowledge of engines:
Let's assume we are starting with a stock engine such as the crate 260:
1) headers and dual exhaust
2) balancing and blueprinting (it's like a house, start with the foundation?)
3) The cam is a relatively cheap and easy modification to make more power, so we should do that next. But while we're at it, we should go roller lifters.
4) Heads: depending on budget either re-work existing heads or upgrade.
5) Induction
6) ?
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Crate motors are not the only thing out there. Check the different combos here:
http://ryanscarpage.50megs.com/combos1.html (http://ryanscarpage.50megs.com/combos1.html) :o
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But what next? For instance, i think these heads:
http://www.araoengineering.com/Chevy/chevysmb.htm
And this induction system:
http://www.inglese.com/Products/ChevySmallBlock.asp
would be the ultimate street engine for me.
If your goal is to have an end product which is exotic, unique, and showy, then you have a winner. But the dollar per hp is absurdly high with such items. Did you happen to notice the prices of those 32 valve heads start at $6000? You would be much better off, performance-wise, spending that money on a supercharger, turbo, or stroker.
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The more I consider my options, the more I think that I should just take the 1972-vintage 350 block I have (the worn-out one) to my local machine shop and turn him loose on it. At least I know where the block came from. Then Vortec heads (or comparable performance heads) and a cam upgrade at the least. I keep thinking that block could make a sweet 383-stroker, but will have to consider if my budget will allow for it. Fortunately I don't have to spend much time or money on body work, the truck is fairly straight and seems rust-free. I'd really like this project truck to be fun to drive when I mash the pedal to the floor, know what I mean? ;D
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Like i said, i will be turning the truck loose against the clock pretty soon. i have accurate means to verfiy--see post in interior section. And a few less traveled backroads. And remember, i have 2.56 gears so this will be a real test for the engine. i think it's a case of time vs. money; If i were wanting to go fast(er) i think, at this point, it would actually be easiest and fastest to plunk down $4-5K for a crate 454. This is after figuring out all time and effort it would take to build an engine myself-----the time would be better spent at work earning money.
.......... But the dollar per hp is absurdly high with such items....................
i see your point as neither the air nor fuel, in my dream case, is under pressure. But for me, this would be an enjoyable motor because of the responsiveness.Total HP, if both of these items were installed on a basically stock crate 350 might only be around 300-450 hp. And, spending $11,000 to make 300-450 seems rather high, but with this approach the power band is smooth and consistent at all rpms. i've driven the 16V 4 cyl mercedes; Not big-time power but lots of fun.
Plus, i look at it as if i were to buy a new corvette, "G8" or maro (i don't like the new one, subject to starting another thread) i would be spending 25-50K for something within the same (ballpark) power range. So here, the $11K doesn't seem so "heavy."
Also, turbos and superchargers (i love them both) might be a little tricky to set up properly (esp. turbo).
But this is just my "dream" engine; i'm not saying it's the best way, just my way. P.S. i would also have 180 deg headers so i can get that Ferrari sound (do we see a pattern here?)---there's enough room.
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For the money, you can't beat the power and efficiency of a LS motor (4.8L, 5.3L, 6.0L) Installed in a lighter 73-87 it makes for a pretty nice motor. Iff you need more you can turbo them with one of the kits we sell and have a new motor for roughly $5000 that will put down 350 hp on a 5lbs.
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yea, i'm strongly considering one of those in the future...a 5.3 would work nice in my truck...
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yea, i'm strongly considering one of those in the future...a 5.3 would work nice in my truck...
I wish I had done it. Low-mileage used 5.3's with 4L60E's are so easy to find in almost any part of the country. There are tons of people who have done it successfully, so there's no need to be intimidated. As far as bang for the buck goes, they're a steal (don't just think hp, think sequential MPFI, hyd roller cam, some of the best production heads chevy's ever made, etc). If I could turn back time, there is no question I'd have one of these engines under my hood. In fact, one of the things I'm considering is selling my brand new engine complete with trans and picking up a used 6.0L with 4L80E.
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yea, i'm most likely gonna go that route
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I went for the Chevy/GMC thing over here 'cos there aren't that many about. I like that something different look and never been one to follow the crowd. As Overthepond said its also the overall size of the thing- compared to compact stuff here its already a monster truck ;D