73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => 73-87 Chevy & GMC Trucks => Topic started by: Dave Kay on June 15, 2008, 10:27:35 pm
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RUN YOUR CAR ON WATER?!! Anybody else heard of this? I've been doing some reading on these so-called HHO gas conversions for cars/trucks and it seems plausable to me but where's the catch? The claim is it will increase gas milage but what is the downside--- if any?
The story goes that you still must run on gasoline but the HHO (hydrogen or Brown's gas) created by a simple process supplements and supposedly increases the efficiancy of the fuel burn. The investment in equipment to perform this feat is also (supposedly) found at your local harware store and can be done for less than $100 bucks.
see this link http://ezinearticles.com/?How-Does-a-Water-Powered-Car-Work---If-it-Works-at-All&id=1244412
I've searched this forum for anything on the subject and got no results, so if I'm posting something here that's already been debunked (and/or beaten to death) please feel free to trash this... (cringe)
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i don't know about any of that above stuff, but what will work is water injection. Which is probably different from the "hho thing."
i'm probably not going to do it, because my daily driver gets, like, 27mpg and the price of gas has not yet reached frightening levels but basically water injection entails raising the compression of the engine and when water is injected(usually from the air intake) as a mist, this cools the combustion chamber and let's you run regular gasoline----while getting the benefits of more power and mileage from the higher compression.
i'll try to find some links to articles.
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hi,
i'm a new member too. you can see my blazer project in member rides. I chose my user name ( chevyh2o) because i want to use my blazer to experiment with the technology. I have done a lot of reading about it, but no experimenting yet. it seems a simple one to start with for a car is called the smack booster. you can look it up on google. This one the developer claims will boost you gas milage by 20% on average.
there are other designs that are simple and more complex. I think the downside at this stage the results vary depending on how well you do in implementing it. and the technology is in early stages, the process seems to be ahead of the science. So the optimal setup is still unknown. Some developers have gotten their car to run on water alone. The Potential is incredible. Of course big corporations are not going to help us become independent. This is a grass roots effort i find really exciting. It would be cool if we helped raise some awareness. Hope to talk soon on this subject , maybe some of use will start experimenting and sharing. My blazer is a little ways away though from helping us. :-[
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As far as reforming water into hydrogen and oxygen – it takes slightly more energy to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen than you can get back in the combustion of hydrogen and oxygen. What method do you plan to use to gainfully run your truck on water? Unfortunately most newspaper reporters and magazine editors were asleep during high school chemistry – so every couple of years some con artist gets his face on the news with a car he designed to run on water....
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I experimented with this concept (hydro cannister) a few years ago and couldn't get it to work. Funny you should bring this topic up, because just yesterday I went out and bought the supplies to try again, this time armed with more information and new ideas.
Companies such as these...
http://www.driveonwater.com/
http://www.hydro4000.com/install.htm
...all sell the same basic product, with only very small differences in construction and operation. For example, some use mineral water while others advocate anything from baking soda to battery acid as an additive to the water used for making Hydrogen. I would NOT waste my money on their products though, because you can MAKE one of these hydro canisters for about $20 with parts from Home Depot!
This website breaks it down exactly how to make the canister:
http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/energy21/hydroboost.htm
Like I said, I just bought the parts yesterday to make another canister and try this thing again. Over the next few weeks I will be trying it out on my 1987 Camaro.
There is a lot of debate about how and why this thing could even work. There are some pretty convincing arguments for "Brown's gas", but I haven't found any conclusive evidence anywhere yet. I believe the thing can work, but there are potentially a lot of factors involved in the actual process (different gas types, where product is introduced to engine, fuel injection or carb, etc).
If you want some more information email me and I'll give you more detail on what I have tried.
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We dont need anymore polluted water :o
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This post got me thinking, and since I work at a hardware store and managed to buy all the supplies for less than $12 (minus the battery acid) with my employee discount, I thought I'd try it..I got it all set up today, and so far, it appears to make a VERY large difference..I can't give any real numbers yet, but I drove around town for about 20 miles with it on, and out to a friends house and back, and the needle never moved off 1/4 of a tank..shut it off and drove around about 10 miles and it dropped to 1/8 (like normal, the needle takes FOREVER to drop off of absolutely full, but once it hits the F mark, it falls like a rock), so I turned the electrolysis system back on and ran a few more errands (10 miles maybe) and the needle never moved..I'll be driving around a bit at this point, and then I'll fill up and try to get some real numbers.
The disadvantage I see, and probably why its not a widely marketable system, is you have to change the electrodes and electrolyte regularly, like every two fill-ups if you use galvanized bolts, maybe every 4 fill ups if you make lead rods.. I've used something similar to this to remove rust from motorcycle parts (namely gas tanks) with a great deal of success, except I was using muratic acid or lye, depending on what I could get in a large enough supply regularly without having the sheriff dropping by to check on what I was doing...
IF the system ends up making a really noticeable difference in mileage, I'll probably integrate it into my truck in a rather clean way..Seeing as how I can replace the electrodes (galvanized bolts and tin can lids) for less than $2, and I'm only using 1 teaspoon of new battery acid per ~1.5 liters of water (the acid cost me $12 for a 6 QUART container) I'd say the time spent would be worthwhile..I may make up another lid so I can just swap in a new one then rebuild the old one in my spare time each time it needs replacing.
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2) Why doesn't anyone try running on steam power?
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...steam engines take a VERY long time to heat up enough to be driveable, and you still need a fuel source to heat the boiler..why add an extra step? You could burn shelled corn, coal, or wood as alternative fuels I suppose, but talk about a *lot* of trouble, plus you'd lose all benefit because you'd have to carry one of those fuels with you, which adds up to significant extra weight..Propane, Methane, Natural Gas, etc could all be burned in an internal combustion engine in some way, shape or form, so adding the boiler and steam engine is just an extra step..
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This is a very interesting topic, and I am anxious to see how your experiment comes out, werewolf, I might even believe it if I saw some mileage numbers! ;D
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This post got me thinking, and since I work at a hardware store and managed to buy all the supplies for less than $12 (minus the battery acid) with my employee discount, I thought I'd try it..I got it all set up today, and so far, it appears to make a VERY large difference..I can't give any real numbers yet, but I drove around town for about 20 miles with it on, and out to a friends house and back, and the needle never moved off 1/4 of a tank..shut it off and drove around about 10 miles and it dropped to 1/8 (like normal, the needle takes FOREVER to drop off of absolutely full, but once it hits the F mark, it falls like a rock), so I turned the electrolysis system back on and ran a few more errands (10 miles maybe) and the needle never moved..I'll be driving around a bit at this point, and then I'll fill up and try to get some real numbers.
The disadvantage I see, and probably why its not a widely marketable system, is you have to change the electrodes and electrolyte regularly, like every two fill-ups if you use galvanized bolts, maybe every 4 fill ups if you make lead rods.. I've used something similar to this to remove rust from motorcycle parts (namely gas tanks) with a great deal of success, except I was using muratic acid or lye, depending on what I could get in a large enough supply regularly without having the sheriff dropping by to check on what I was doing...
IF the system ends up making a really noticeable difference in mileage, I'll probably integrate it into my truck in a rather clean way..Seeing as how I can replace the electrodes (galvanized bolts and tin can lids) for less than $2, and I'm only using 1 teaspoon of new battery acid per ~1.5 liters of water (the acid cost me $12 for a 6 QUART container) I'd say the time spent would be worthwhile..I may make up another lid so I can just swap in a new one then rebuild the old one in my spare time each time it needs replacing.
GREAT! This is what I'm looking for--- guys who've tried it or guys who know people who actually have hands-on experience with this or just anyone's input! In fact, I'm going to give this a little more time and find myself a system that I can implement on my Ol' '77 and maybe we can compare notes--- what can it hurt? I'm willing to throw a few bucks at this concept and see if it can't be useful at least to some degree. One thing I've read is that this system is NOT for fuel injected gas engines ONLY carbs, but supposedly it will work with diesals... kinda' contradictory huh? But think about it; the entire U.S. is TOTALLY dependant on overseas petrol products and the government doesn't have any viable solutions other than waiting several more years until the market is such that we can all "Go Green" and drive around in Honda-Toyota-Nissan-Hyundai Electric-Gasoline Powered Puddle-Jumpers that will cost you $25K OR MORE... nope, aint ready to give up my Big GMC just yet... I'm talking about pry it from my cold dead hands now! lol
C'mon guys, everybody weigh in on this thing and let's either debunk it or...?
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The energy necessary to separate 2H2O into 2H2 + O2 is theoretically equal to that produced by burning those elements. It doesn't work, this has been an ongoing load of crap for many years. notice that all of these articles and adds you read are followed by a link that accepts paypal to rope all the suckers into buying a water garbage can for their car? Perhaps one day there will be an efficient method of extracting hydrogen and oxygen and an engine that can produce a useful amount of work utilizing it but for now, don't expect any amazing results from your science expiriment.
External combustion engines were used once upon a time and soon realized it was not practical in an automobile. Yes they use steam but still require a lot of fuel!
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Good results thus far: My usual in-town mileage per tank is ~140 miles by the odometer til I'm sucking fumes..I'm at 124 miles and still over 3/4 of a tank, and I've NOT changed my driving habits at all, I'm not afraid of my throttle one bit....I talked to a regular customer Saturday when I was helping him find some parts for his kitchen faucet, and hes been using the same setup for 3 months and is averaging 40 mpg city with a 1996 jeep Cherokee 4 door 4.0 liter..
Its looking like it'll require more frequent electrode changes/modifications than planned, the bolts are in good shape yet, but the tin discs are like wet paper..
My tank holds about 1.25-1.5 liters of water, the next run will be with distilled water instead of filtered tap water..
I don't see why you would have any problem incorporating it into a fuel injected vehicle..pump the gases into the intake on the engine side of the MAF (if equipped)..
After I run a few tanks of fuel through, I'll come up with average MPGs..I've been experimenting with the electrolyte mixture some with this one, I tried tap water, filtered tap water, vinegar, hydrogen peroxide..Filtered water and battery acid have been the most effective by far.
The concept isn't exactly "running on hydrogen", but rather using small amounts of hydrogen as a catalyst for the fuel burn, much the same way diesels can use propane to improve the burn of their fuel..the hydrogen in this system is produced (separated) similarly to that of an old battery as its being overcharged..batteries release small amounts of hydrogen gas, but as they're being charged beyond their capacity, the volume of that gas produced increases substantially..same principal, different execution..
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Do you have any pictures of your set up. If you do it would be intresting to look at it.
Thanks
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I'll see if I can take some today when I'm out getting a new water pump..mine's squalling when the a/c is on or when the alt is loaded down (like when I left my headlights on for 3.5 hours the other night ::) ), and it gets worse the tighter you get the belts.
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Interesting viewpoint....
http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9551919888/m/2321969559
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Also the viewpoint of someone who's looking at it "on paper", so to speak..They haven't installed one themselves (at least, they never say they have)..Whether or not the science is correct, thus far, my experiment is working..an extra 10 amps of load on the alt isn't even going to come close to affecting gas mileage in a noticeable amount..If you really ride the throttle hard, you're still gonna drink gas..They're right about one thing, you can't produce large enough quantities of whatever is making it work, to meet the demands of an engine thats running at a higher rpm..with occasional wailing of the throttle (usually a few times a day), I see enough of an improvement in "cruise" ranges to make up for it, I've passed the mileage point where I usually start REALLY worrying about running out of gas, and my needle is still at the half tank mark (or I'm in for a very frustrating, coincidentally bad timed malfunction of my fuel gauge)..Although, I'm going to have a small problem getting any more accurate results, as the pump I was using is now non-functioning..It was my old aquarium air pump, and had developed a bit of a "hiccup" before i retired it from aquarium use, it now no longer pumps air..
Sounds like the batteries for my camera are about charged, and the raid has stopped for the moment, so I'll go take a couple pics.
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Pics of the setup.
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I don't understand something. Isn't the carb metered to provide a certain amt of fuel for a qty of air? Are you saying it requires less throttle to cruise? If this is the case then while idling down the street in normal mode and then you turn it on, it ought to make the vehicle go faster without any throttle, right?
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if you can hold a steady throttle, flip the switch for the tank, and power up the pump, then yes, in a few seconds the RPM changes a little, but its not like accelerating, its more like you were carrying 500 extra lbs in the bed, and someone just threw that weight out 100 lbs at a time..
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if you can hold a steady throttle, flip the switch for the tank, and power up the pump, then yes, in a few seconds the RPM changes a little, but its not like accelerating, its more like you were carrying 500 extra lbs in the bed, and someone just threw that weight out 100 lbs at a time..
Sorry guys, been too busy lately to check in on this thread but glad to be seeing some results... how about MPG? Any kind of numbers yet?
And sorry Vile, that one scientific post poo-pooing the whole concept was way over my head.... which reminds me of something...
Confusious Say: Never tell a man it can't be done while man doing it... (yuk, yuk)
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I never said you couldn't do it. It just doesn't work.
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I have been researching this here lately myself, I am interested but would need a definitive "Plan of Assembly" and parts list...
I'm game.
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I have some magnets you can stick on your fuel line to re-align the molecules to burn better in combustion rather than sticking together like lazy little hydrocarbons.
I have a piece of foil you can put in your air cleaner that will act as a vorticie inducer and create a tremendous increase in eceonomy also. I think I'll call it the Tornado!
I also have an additive you can put in your crankcase that will allow you to run with hardly any oil. Heck you can even spray water on your engine and it won't quit!
I also have these really cool sunglasses that allow me to see through womens clothing.
A guy like me has it all I guess! ;)
http://www.aardvark.co.nz/hho.shtml
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I have a piece of foil you can put in your air cleaner that will act as a vorticie inducer and create a tremendous increase in eceonomy also. I think I'll call it the Tornado!
That's my hat!
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By ALL Laws of nature, and physics a helicopter can't fly either. But here where I work, we know they fly on a daily basis.
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That's a dorky scientific myth just like bumblebee's can't fly and proven false. By all means run your expiriment and prove all the skeptics wrong.
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Vile,
I'm not trying to be a smart ass here but that comment was completely un-called for.....
Have a nice day
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??? What comment are you referring too? That it's a dorky scientific myth? Sorry if I offended you, perhaps you misread or misinterpret what I wrote. I don't know how that would have though unless you are a scientist who is dorky and if that's the case I humbly apologize. :D Either way I wasn't talking down at you I just happen to know of the scientific myths of flight that you are referring to. My best friend is a dorky scientist who we always talk about useless stuff like that.
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By ALL Laws of nature, and physics a helicopter can't fly either.
I think they cracked that one. LOL. Check this (http://www.cavalrypilot.com/fm1-514/Ch1.htm) out sometime if you are curious.
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Maybe it just struck me wrong eairlier..............My bad...
No, not a dorky scientist either...
My point of view is that if this thing helps, even a little, then it is a start........Sorry for sounding like such a punk earlier. :-[
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By ALL Laws of nature, and physics a helicopter can't fly either.
What would have happened had Orville and Wilbur listened to the doubters. Kitty Hawk would be nothing but another strip of beach in the outer banks--that I will visit anyway in September and again in October.
Pics of last year's trip to OBX, NC with my son in front of the Wright Flyer at Kitty Hawk...
(http://www.delbridge.net/wright1.jpg)
(http://www.delbridge.net/wright2.jpg)
And what about the Osprey? It wasn't supposed to work either--half helicopter, half airplane. We got a treat last year while at the Wright Bros Memorial....My dad and son, and me behind the camera, saw this osprey showing off. ..
(http://www.delbridge.net/wright3.jpg)
(http://www.delbridge.net/wright4.jpg)
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Awesome Sarge, thanks for your input! And I have to say that the Wright Bros first powered flight is to me, one of the most fascinating aviation/history subjects of all... but I am no expert! Inspiration as well as experimentation was the brother's 'fuel' which finally proved a result: powered flight!
The Wrights corresponded on a regular basis with a fellow named Octave Chaute, the German guy who at that time was one of the world's foremost experts on airfoils and gliders. And it could be truthfully stated that Orville and Wilber's ultimate acheivement was in fact a collaborative effort... in retrospect, there were many experimenters around the world who were nipping at the Wright's heals all along but in time, they were simply out smarted.
So for all those inspired experimenters out there... keep up the good work!
P.S. am more than anxious to get into this 'experiment' but like someone else posted, I would need a fairly detailed plan-of-operation and I offer up my Ol' 77 for the cause... having said that and not wanting to pawn-off hard work on others, I first must finish my current work-truck-project to make time available for further study... and I digress.
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http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/energy21/hydroboost.htm
The link above was posted on page 1. It seems to have the most informative instructions of any site I have seen thus far. Several diagrams are also pictured. Detailed constructions given as well...
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The ultimate effectiveness of the whole assembly depends on how much hydrogen gas you can produce in relation to the air demands of your engine..My first tank went significantly further than it did before, and there were a few times that I stepped into it...but, there was more time that I spent at more of a high idle, which is where the only real noticeable impact is..I drove normally, but normal for me includes a lot of accelerating to 35-40 mph and coasting for 10 blocks, then level the speed out to 20-25..If you mixed more acid with the water, or forced more current through it, or put it on a lawnmower engine or something with much lower air demands, you'd see a much more noticeable difference..My 2nd tank, I drove more aggressively, and my mileage was right back to being less than 8 mpg in town when driving with a heavy foot..I'm not willing to take a chance with a higher concentration of sulfuric acid, if someone else wants to try it, or experiment with the same concentrations, be my guest..but putting an electrical current through a higher concentration of acid could result in bad things..such as a small explosion..
The materials I used were: a 12" long piece of 4" thin wall DWV pipe, mine had a flared end to allow it to slide over another piece of pipe, which worked out better than using a coupling, which would work as well, but would take up more space. You'll cut it down to 8" long.
a 4" DWV pvc cap for the pipe
a 4" cleanout for the thin wall pipe (schedule 40 caps and cleanouts won't work if you use the thin stuff)
a 4" plug for the cleanout.
two 3/8" brass pipe nipples
Two 3/8"x6" galvanized carriage bolts
8 3/8" galvanized nuts
2 stainless 3/8" nuts (for holding the ring terminals on the "electrodes"
some kind of air pump..the angelfire hosted link on page 1 uses a universal windshield washer pump, I used an aquarium air pump and a pocket inverter since I already had both..If you use the washer pump, you only need ONE 3/8" brass pipe nipple.
A can of mushrooms, or a couple soup cans..mushrooms are still in cans that you can cut both the top and bottom off, whereas most soup cans only allow for the top to be cut off..
Probably some more stuff, just follow this link and read the whole thing.
http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/energy21/hydroboost.htm (http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/energy21/hydroboost.htm)
As an additional note, I'm not responsible if you try any of this and damage your truck or yourself..You're handling sulfuric acid, use common sense and chemical protection..
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The ultimate effectiveness of the whole assembly depends on how much hydrogen gas you can produce in relation to the air demands of your engine..My first tank went significantly further than it did before, and there were a few times that I stepped into it...but, there was more time that I spent at more of a high idle, which is where the only real noticeable impact is..I drove normally, but normal for me includes a lot of accelerating to 35-40 mph and coasting for 10 blocks, then level the speed out to 20-25..If you mixed more acid with the water, or forced more current through it, or put it on a lawnmower engine or something with much lower air demands, you'd see a much more noticeable difference..My 2nd tank, I drove more aggressively, and my mileage was right back to being less than 8 mpg in town when driving with a heavy foot..I'm not willing to take a chance with a higher concentration of sulfuric acid, if someone else wants to try it, or experiment with the same concentrations, be my guest..but putting an electrical current through a higher concentration of acid could result in bad things..such as a small explosion..
The materials I used were: a 12" long piece of 4" thin wall DWV pipe, mine had a flared end to allow it to slide over another piece of pipe, which worked out better than using a coupling, which would work as well, but would take up more space. You'll cut it down to 8" long.
a 4" DWV pvc cap for the pipe
a 4" cleanout for the thin wall pipe (schedule 40 caps and cleanouts won't work if you use the thin stuff)
a 4" plug for the cleanout.
two 3/8" brass pipe nipples
Two 3/8"x6" galvanized carriage bolts
8 3/8" galvanized nuts
2 stainless 3/8" nuts (for holding the ring terminals on the "electrodes"
some kind of air pump..the angelfire hosted link on page 1 uses a universal windshield washer pump, I used an aquarium air pump and a pocket inverter since I already had both..If you use the washer pump, you only need ONE 3/8" brass pipe nipple.
A can of mushrooms, or a couple soup cans..mushrooms are still in cans that you can cut both the top and bottom off, whereas most soup cans only allow for the top to be cut off..
Probably some more stuff, just follow this link and read the whole thing.
http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/energy21/hydroboost.htm (http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/energy21/hydroboost.htm)
As an additional note, I'm not responsible if you try any of this and damage your truck or yourself..You're handling sulfuric acid, use common sense and chemical protection..
HA~! :o I luv your disclaimer at the end... and rightfully so! Thanks for the work you've done posting and especially for the synopsis on your system. One thing I've wondered about is where you speculated on how much hydrogen you can produce in relation to air demand; and I think why not add multiple canisters to produce more hydrogen, hence, increasing the fuel to air ratio? And after your conclusions thus far, I further wonder if this system is no better or worse than production natural gas powered vehicles? You did get further on your 1st tank by keeping the foot out of the throttle did you not? A noticable savings?
To wit; one of my neighbors has a factory produced Honda (Accord I think?) which runs purely on NG and he tells me that it does not increase his fuel milage any better than the same gasoline powered model, it is simply the difference in the overall price he pays for fuel in relation to the distance travelled. Then there was another fellow I knew years ago who ran an LPG conversion in an old Dodge pickup and his claim was that the only real gains he saw were when he did long haul driving; he'd switch on the LPG after reaching cruise speed and it saved on gasoline significantly. In other words, he ran around town using gasoline w/o the LPG and only switched over for Vegas trips and such... and this was 20 yrs ago!
So I'm thinking that as your current system is in a fairly basic form, perhaps with some refinements further gains could be achived... additionally, I cannot help but to think that this system will also come up against finite limits in maintainance, size, etc, and other unkowns, but still perhaps be useful in keeping our old square-bodys on the road and viable for the near term... I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this and thanks again.
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Yeah, if I drove like I normally do, there was a significant improvement at certain times..normal driving for me is not light footed, as I tend to accelerate hard to about 10 mph over or a little better, and coast til I drop off to the speed limit or about 5 mph under..This was a habit I started when I was driving my '84, which had RIDICULOUS spring tension on the accelerator after I switched to the holley, no matter what I did to adjust it or lubricate the cable..Driving like that in my current truck usually yields about 140 miles per tank, with occasional WOT sprints when I feel like playing..During the experiment, my first tank yielded over 220 miles, which is better than my best highway mileage has ever been, running 55 mph with a tail wind. When my aquarium pump quit, I used a small funnel on the end of a piece of tubing stuck behind the grille for awhile, but I repaired the pump and went back to using it..I had planned on testing to see which of those worked better, but its really not practical for me either way..my Maxima gets better mileage than the theoretical best improvement with the base mileage my truck gets, and its more comfortable to drive..I've just got to hope with all my might that the car's transmission holds up til I snatch up the right parts car for a 5 speed swap.
If I'm correct, you could put one of these on a lawnmower and only fill it with gas once a year..but you'd be recharging the battery on a regular basis..
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I am in the process of building an HHO generator myself. For lots of info on HHO, just go to youtube.com and type in "How to HHO" (without the quotatio marks of course) and you will see a ton of videos showing how to build your own HHO generator and hook it up to your car. Some people report fuel mileage increases of up to 70%. Basically all you are doing is creating hydrogen gas, and running it into your air intake. After the air filter. The gas will be sucked down into the engine and burned, and that saves you having to burn so much gasoline, thus saving you lots of money. This is NOT snake oil, it works and i have seen it work. But, there are several very important issuses. Hydrogen gas is more explosive than gasoline, so be VERY careful when dealing with it. And DO NOT USE GLASS for your generator if you decide to build one. In any part of it. Not the cannister, not anthing. If things go wrong, the glass will be the worst thing you could have built it out of. Plastic will just rupture, but glass will effectively become a grenade. And do not let the motor be full of the gas before you start it. You will destroy your engine. Do not start gas production until the engine is already running. Those are the main safety tips. Building the generator is super easy, in fact i would bet that most of you already have most of the materials needed in your shop or garage. if not, they can all be obtained at home depot, and autozone.