More stuff for the ADD, pt.1

[Stewart G Griffin]

Ok, so as you may know, i sucessfully helicoiled (my first time) one of the starter bolt holes on the engine.

Of course, in order to this you must first take the starter off and then when you're done, put the starter back in (arms still aching).

The only things i did before the truck now doesn't crank(you guessed it) were:

a) disconnect the battery negative cable----for safety.

b) take the starter out.

c) put the starter back in.

d) reconnect battery.

i know the battery is good because i tested it, and also i took the battery out of the cavalier and still no crank.   So, the battery is not the problem.  i'm getting all gauge lights etc.

i also know i got the wiring to starter right-----positive cable from battery and the two red wires with the fusable links the merge into and "O" ring go on the big terminal.   And then the remaining wire goes tot the "S" terminal.

Also note that it is 27F outside (just coincidence that i finally have time to work on the truck due to work and other bs that cropped up) but i don't think this has much to do with the no crank situation.

What i'm proposing is that we do a very basic, step-by-step, analysis and plan of action that an Automotively Developmentally Disabled person such as myself can understand and follow.  Remember to use detail and language that a 4 year old can understand.

NOTES:
1) If the term ADD offends, i will stop immediately.   We would need to come up with another self-deprecating term to describe individuals such as myself (and possibly to encourage persons like myself to become more knowledgable about cars).

2) i was going to use the term AR,   automotively retarded, but i thought that this would probably be offensive.

3) The only other thing was i noticed that the ground wire coming from the battery negative cable and bolts to the radiator core support is crunchy and brittle and the plastic is bubbly and some of it is gone and the wires are exposed and i know it was not like this before.   Also, when i got the truck running last summer with the new (305) mill, i noticed that there was smoke comming from underneath the hood during times of greater than normal cranking times.  i did not know what this was and wasn't concerned at the time, only concerned about getting the truck running.   i will describe this in much greater detail as well as provide pics later.

4) In the meantime i will use my fleplate turning tool to see if the engine seized up which i really doubt it did.

[Layne]

Hmmm. Have you tried tapping the starter lightly with a hammer? If their going bad, they'll sometimes have a "dead" spot and you can tap it and it'll crank. Check your connections, too. Maybe a little grease got on your connection.

[Stewart G Griffin]

So anyways, here is the small wire i'm talking about:



It branches off from the main battery negative cable  Figs 2, 3:




Note that there is no electrical tape on that wire----the plastic, apparently burned/melted off.  What would cause this?

i am working on a diagram, until then:
--the main battery negative goes to the alternator bracket
--all the wires are basically supposed to be where they were originally as stock---even the steel braided looking one from the firewall is present and attached to the back of the cyl head.
--i did notice some "smoke" coming from the hood when i first swapped in the 305 during heavy cranking, apparently this was it?    The only things different that i'm not using now that i did with the previous 350 engine setup are electric choke and the idle comphensator thing, but these wouldn't really cause the problem?

The engine turns easily as expected, so we know the engine didn't seize up.
Everything wiring wise is pretty much stock 83.  This is one thing i'm proud of and happy that the previous owner didn't hack up which is oh so common for some reason.

[SUX2BU99]

That melted ground wire is a fire waiting to erupt. The smoke you saw was probably that wire melting from excessively heavy current passing through a wire too small for the current draw. Where does it connect to? Replace that thing ASAP. I would also scrape away the paint under that 'star' washer which is acting as a ground on your core support. I did this to all of my ground points when I bought my truck and I saw over 0.5 volt improvement at my amp guage and my lights were brighter. Also, it's never a bad thing to install a battery to frame (not core support, but the actual frame) heavy ground cable. I suggest 4 AWG wire.

[Stewart G Griffin]

Yes, this wire DOES concern me and i'm not going to do anything else until this matter is taken care of.  The starter problem can wait.

This wire branches off from the main, large battery negative cable. (second pic)   The batt negative cable itself goes directly to the alternator bracket.  (like i said, i am working on a diagram and it should be up shortly).  i've been doing some reading and most likely the large, main batt negative cable IS NOT grounding properly to the alternator bracket, which is why the small wire is getting overloaded and burning up, so i've got to check that.

i'm thinking during the engine swap i reconnected this wire to the alt bracket improperly (put washers in wrong order or something) or maybe the wire iself is bad.

P.S. why did the factory use star washers anyway?

[Layne]

Your big wire is on the alt bracket, right? Scratch the paint off that bracket and see if theres corrosion on the bolt/ washer. I think I moved my wire to the intake manifold, but I put a serpentine kit on.

[78 Chevyrado]

Make sure the alt bracket is grounded good.  I had the same thing happen on mine and it turned out to be a bad battery cable.  I cleaned all the connections and they were good, but the cable inside was all black corroded and it had enough wire strands still attatched to look good to the voltmeter, but it didn't have enough strands to move the current through it.  If you don't have one now, get a star washer for it, they help.

Put an ohm meter on the negative cable from end to end and twist and move the cable while it's hooked to the meter and see if the readings change.  if they do, the cables bad.

I'd go through and clean the connections.  If a connection shows bad on a voltmeter, it's bad.  If a connection shows good on a voltmeter, it may still be bad.

Since it burned up the smalll wire, check your ground strap to the engine too.  The ground strap goes from the very back end of the passenger side head to the cab.  

[Stewart G Griffin]

Your big wire is on the alt bracket, right? Scratch the paint off that bracket and see if theres corrosion on the bolt/ washer. I think I moved my wire to the intake manifold, but I put a serpentine kit on.

Everything looks just fine, no corrosion.

But this leads me to my next questions.........

[Stewart G Griffin]

Make sure the alt bracket is grounded good.  I had the same thing happen on mine and it turned out to be a bad battery cable.  I cleaned all the connections and they were good, but the cable inside was all black corroded and it had enough wire strands still attatched to look good to the voltmeter, but it didn't have enough strands to move the current through it.  If you don't have one now, get a star washer for it, they help.

Put an ohm meter on the negative cable from end to end and twist and move the cable while it's hooked to the meter and see if the readings change.  if they do, the cables bad.

I'd go through and clean the connections.  If a connection shows bad on a voltmeter, it's bad.  If a connection shows good on a voltmeter, it may still be bad.

Since it burned up the smalll wire, check your ground strap to the engine too.  The ground strap goes from the very back end of the passenger side head to the cab.  

1)  The ground strap is present, tight and appears "good", but how do we check it?

[SUX2BU99]

Yes, this wire DOES concern me and i'm not going to do anything else until this matter is taken care of.  The starter problem can wait.

This wire branches off from the main, large battery negative cable. (second pic)   The batt negative cable itself goes directly to the alternator bracket.  (like i said, i am working on a diagram and it should be up shortly).  i've been doing some reading and most likely the large, main batt negative cable IS NOT grounding properly to the alternator bracket, which is why the small wire is getting overloaded and burning up, so i've got to check that.

i'm thinking during the engine swap i reconnected this wire to the alt bracket improperly (put washers in wrong order or something) or maybe the wire iself is bad.

P.S. why did the factory use star washers anyway?

I don't like the big ground wire for the battery going straight to the alternator bracket. That means ground to the frame is going through the ground strap for the motor which might not be that great and any bolts that touch motor or transmission to frame like the motor mounts or tranny mounts. Ground is being accomplished but you should re-mount that ground from the battery directly to the frame.

This is my battery to frame ground:


I scraped the paint off under where the bolt holds the terminal down and then I shot it with black Krylon afterwards.

The factory used those star washers as far as I know so that they bite into the metal and actually give a decent (sort of) ground.

I've also had a battery (positive) cable disintegrate from the inside and looked fine on the outside. I'd get intermittent starting capablities until I cut the terminal end off and found the copper strands inside were entirely corroded.

[jaredts]

I suspect the wire from battery negative to the alternator bracket as mentioned before.  Most likely where it connects to the bracket it is loose or corroded.  Sometimes the crimp connector there may loose its hold as well.  Wiggle and pull lightly on the wire where it goes into the crimp connector at the bracket and see if its loose or wants to come out.  Take the screw out of the alternator bracket and get to bare metal there using emery cloth or whatever you can get your hands on to remove rust/corrosion, etc.  Also clean the connections at the battery.  In one of your pics there appears to be rust on the battery positive.  I assume that both of the battery cable terminals are rusty and that could be the problem.  This sounds dumb, but I'll ask anyway:  Is that sticker on your battery covering part of the negative connection under the terminal?

SUX2BU99:  why would you ground the frame instead of the alternator bracket?  The starter motor is the biggest current draw and its attached to the motor, not the frame???  Seems like attaching to the frame requires the current to pass through the frame and then into the motor through ground straps that weren't designed to carry that kind of load.  The alternator bracket seems like the perfect spot (apparently GM agrees).  If you wanted to add a second wire to the frame I could see that, but I'm confused.

[Stewart G Griffin]

i'll address the whole alt bracket vs. frame vs. engine block as ground thing in a sec, but first:

Make sure the alt bracket is grounded good.  I had the same thing happen on mine and it turned out to be a bad battery cable.  I cleaned all the connections and they were good, but the cable inside was all black corroded and it had enough wire strands still attatched to look good to the voltmeter, but it didn't have enough strands to move the current through it.  If you don't have one now, get a star washer for it, they help.

Put an ohm meter on the negative cable from end to end and twist and move the cable while it's hooked to the meter and see if the readings change.  if they do, the cables bad.

I'd go through and clean the connections.  If a connection shows bad on a voltmeter, it's bad.  If a connection shows good on a voltmeter, it may still be bad.

Since it burned up the smalll wire, check your ground strap to the engine too.  The ground strap goes from the very back end of the passenger side head to the cab.  

First off, i got this multimeter because i couldn't find the other one that i had:


i don't know how to use it----the instructions are not that helpful.

1) i understand the theory behind testing the battery negative cable, but:
a) Where, exactly,  do i put the leads on the battery cable?
b) Which dial setting to use and why?

1.5) How would you test if the alternator bracket is grounded good?

2) the crimp connection is good and no the sticker is not covering any of the terminals.
We need to kind of slow it down;  i'm AC,  automotively challenged.  Remember?

[smitty77]

Nothing will work without ground.  Poor ground = poor/intermittent operation.  It's also an efficiency thing - your electrical system will have to overcome less resistance when you use wire of ample size and with solid/clean connections.

For some reason, that small wire going to the radiator support is acting as your biggest ground.  Anything metal will act as a ground, but the "ground" must be big enough to handle the current draw, and this includes the ground wiring.  You can be redundant here without causing harm.  I would connect a new ground wire to the Alternator bracket, and another to the frame, and yet another from the motor to the frame.  The motor, theoretically, is electrically isolated from the frame by the rubber motor mounts.

I know you're on a very limited budget, but these wires are cheap and can be found anywhere, even at Walmart.  Get some new wire for the 3 locations I mentioned above and when in doubt get a bigger gauge than you think you need.  Scrape all of the connection locations down to bare metal and connect securely with a nut/bot/lock washer combo (a star washer is also acceptable).  Then paint over to prevent rust.  Route all of your wires away from sources of heat, and secure them with hold-downs or cover with wire loom to avoid chafing (more of a concern for the positive cable).

Electrical problem can torch a vehicle, and with high-amp applications like the starter and alternator, go with new wire and save yourself the headaches.  Even if it is a starter problem, that melted ground wire is a huge concern.

[SUX2BU99]

SUX2BU99:  why would you ground the frame instead of the alternator bracket?  The starter motor is the biggest current draw and its attached to the motor, not the frame???  Seems like attaching to the frame requires the current to pass through the frame and then into the motor through ground straps that weren't designed to carry that kind of load.  The alternator bracket seems like the perfect spot (apparently GM agrees).  If you wanted to add a second wire to the frame I could see that, but I'm confused.

You raise a good point; one that I had overlooked. On my truck, I have a chrome alternator bracket so I never have had a battery to alt bracket ground. In this rather old pic of my motor, you can see I have a wide braided engine-frame ground strap:


I prefer grounding to frame when I can. My engine is to the frame and so too is my battery. I'm not saying the alt bracket is necessarily a bad place to ground in general, just so long as there is good metal to metal contact without paint (or rubber like on the motor mounts) getting in between and a wire of at least 8 AWG in size for short runs. Something is causing that smaller wire to melt.

Stew, do you have an engine to frame ground? What smitty77 said might sound like overkill on the grounding points but it's cheap insurance.

[78 Chevyrado]

To check for resistance, bad connections  set the meter to the setting the blue line goes to.  That checks for OHMs.  once you have it set there touch the two leads together, the readout should go to 0.000 or real close to it.  this is your baseline reading.  now put one lead on the alternator bracket and put one lead on the  engine block.  make sure they are making good contact in both places.  now the readout should read the same or very close to what it read when you simply touched the leads to each other.  if the number is higher, there's resistance there.  resistance can either come from bad connections, corrosion, or the leads aren't making good contact.

You can check all your grounds like this:  connect or touch one lead to where the main battery cable goes, and touch the other lead to whatever ground you suspect.  the reading should be the same or very close to when you touch the leads to each other.

When you check a wire/cable, attach one lead of the meter to each end of the cable you want to test.  for example on the main bettery cable, you would put one lead on the alternator bracket end, and one on the part that bolts to the battery.  then while they're connected, wiggle and twist on the wire and see if the OHM readout changes.  If the readings change and it's not because of movement in the end leads, you have a bad cable.  sometimes cables corrode inside or can mechanically break from 20+ years of the engine moving and flexing that cable back and forth.

If you do connect the main battery cable to the frame instead of on the engine somewhere, all the battery cranking power will have to go through the ground strap.  Remember the engine/trans are isolated from the frame by the rubber engine mounts and the only real connection to the cab/frame is the ground strap and maybe the shift linkage.