Mmmmmmm new toys

[HAULIN IT]

Sorry I hit the POST by mistake!  of "port macthing" done correctly can send me a private message. Vile, I'm sure we could agree on allot of things, this just may not be one. I will send you a private message to discuss this some farther if you would like. I do not feel we should "muddy the waters" on this post. Talk to you all later, Lorne

[VileZambonie]

This is a message forum. If you feel you have meaningful knowledge that will contribute to the benefit of others by all means post it here. That's what places like this are for. If you can prove to me that it's a good thing to have your intake ports mismatched to the intake manifold by all means enlighten me.

[the dan]

As far as to address your port matching question the dan, the idea is not to port match to the gasket but to the components without the gasket interfering. In other words the air stream should flow unimpeded into the cylinder head. You can make a paper trace of the cylinder head and cut out a port match. Lay the intake gaskets in place along with your paper trace aligned with duct tape. Start all of your intake bolts. Flip the tape onto intake so your trace will not move and now remove the intake. Using a fine sharpe trace the areas you will need to port. This is about as close as you are going to get it.

thanks, that seems like an awsome trick i just learned, genna do it when i pull this engine out

[HAULIN IT]

Vile, Please go back & re-read my first post. I said "if the metal is interfering with the normal way of flow" & "you want no intrusions" I went back & re-read your posts (the first one or two, in particular) "grind the port opening on the head to the gasket size & install the heads, grind the intake to the gasket size" This is where I have problems. I didn't say I wanted a port mis-match, what I was trying to imply is that for this fellow to get all worked up grinding metal he doesn't know is hurting flow (but he is hurting port velocity, by making it bigger) taking the heads apart ( not spending the time in the bowl area) putting them together, taking it to a shop & paying them to do the tracing/grinding the intake,ect.ect. Simply is not worth it. This is a 3900 lb truck he is going to drive around listening to the radio, "getting on it" now & then. It will be a peppy truck with what he has planned there. How much, in REAL horsepower do you feel he is leaving on the bench by having a 1/8" of head port sticking out in the way on one side or maybe two? Is he going to feel the noticeable difference driving it up the street if he does not do it & I send him the gaskets & ask him to take the intake off & "port match" it & reinstall everything? Don't misunderstand, I DO check the intake to head port placement on any performace project I'm doing. It is what is done & when & where that we disagree. I have found through research & a little flowbench time (adding clay,especially to the bottom of the runner area) you don't want to make this bigger until long after this fellow's 5000 RPM street motor is done making power. I don't want to get into a "what I know, who you know game". Most of my projects are/have been primarily street driven/drag race vehicles, I do spend time against the clock testing. I found a few things in "my library" that everyone that is playing performance engines should read. David Vizard's Horsepower books are one of several. Another paragraph I found in a tech manual from Joe Mondello. Anyone thinking about grinding on their heads should do lots of research first. I am not here to stir sh*t, just learn some from others & maybe help others too.Thats all for now, Lorne

[VileZambonie]

I did clarify that using the gasket as a template or using a seperate template. However we are talking about "port matching" Not porting here. Porting the heads is a different story. As far as you saying it's not worth it to have him port match without porting the heads you are wrong there. I check the port match on every performance engine I build. Whether or not I port the heads is depending on who's paying me what to build their engine. Nevertheless a prime example is my 454 I just finished putting together where the ports were unmatched by a 1/4 of an inch!

(but he is hurting port velocity, by making it bigger)

You do not hurt port velocity by enlarging ports. You hurt port velocity when you open up an area and do not follow through down the entire port. Example if you enlarged the opening of a runner and did not open up the rest of the port forming an egg shape, I agree with you there but if you are enlarging a port correctly this does not reduce flow and efficiency. Again that is porting not port matching. So once again if my original post came across as open your port at the opening to the size of a fel-pro gasket you misunderstood. You can use the gasket and a sheet of paper as a template for port matching. Port matching is GOOD and as I stated before if you are going to spend the time and money doing any high performance mods why would you not check port alignment. I think it's common sense. If you want to discuss porting techniques and proven flow bench results I'd be happy to even though that is off topic. For the record I've been porting and port matching heads since I was a kid and my machine shop has a flow bench. We bring cylinder heads down and test them several times with my classes to demonstrate VE improvement techniques for my students before and after hours of porting.


*edit- typo

[HAULIN IT]

Vile, Were going to have to go one more round on this. Lets recap: On Jan 7th, Chad (aka..sux2bu99) posts showing off his new heads, Great! You state, Quote: "at the very least port match the heads to the gaskets and then port match the intake manifold to the heads once they're bolted on". Then about an hour later, Quote: "Here's a nice easy method:
Port match your heads to the gaskets. Once the heads are installed take the intake manifold end seals (you know the ones you'll throw away anyway) and lay them in place. Then position the intake gaskets so they are properly aligned. On the side of the gasket facing the heads place a long piece of duct tape (sticky side up) under the intake gaskets. Now position the intake and lightly snug it down. Wrap the tape tightly to the intake so that when you remove it the gaskets come up with the intake manifold and then flip it over. Your gaskets will be in the position where they mate with the head. From there trace out the gasket with a fine point sharpe and grind away".
 Now 17 days go by, & Chad may have taken your advise, he has the NEW heads ground out to the gasket size (we don't even know which size port gasket he has), takes them all apart,cleans them in preparation to install. On Jan 24th, along comes Dan & questions:

not to jack the thread, but since it was mostly on port matching, how do you port match vortec heads to the intake? there is this huge gasket opening probably about 1/8-1/4" around the perimeter of the port is exposed with the gaskets that you buy, thats allot to take off..

Now things are getting interesting, Hindsight I wish I had not posted when I did. Because the answer that may have come could have been good.
 Now on the 24th:

port matching your intake reduces inlet turbulence which will make porting tight radius', enlarged runners, multi angle valve jobs a complete waste of time if you don't do it! You DON'T need a flow bench to understand how simple this is. You can see how this works with running water out of your tap. Turn the faucet on and observe the stream of water. Now stick the edge of your finger into the edge of the stream. You will see the water bend and actually has a velocity gain. This is the idea behind porting tight smooth radius' ...Now stick your finger under the stream of water and watch the turbulence send the water bouncing all over the place and reducing the time it takes the water to leave the tap and make it to the basin. Air flowing in the intake and running into the side of the cylinder head if not properly matched will cause the same effect. It's a very simple and easy concept which results in a very good performance gain. If you feel that it's over-rated so be it but I speak from experience.

As far as to address your port matching question the dan, the idea is not to port match to the gasket but to the components without the gasket interfering. In other words the air stream should flow unimpeded into the cylinder head. You can make a paper trace of the cylinder head and cut out a port match. Lay the intake gaskets in place along with your paper trace aligned with duct tape. Start all of your intake bolts. Flip the tape onto intake so your trace will not move and now remove the intake. Using a fine sharpe trace the areas you will need to port. This is about as close as you are going to get it.

 So now you changed your mind & Dan nor Chad should "grind to the gasket size"
 Now on Jan 25th: You state that I MISUNDERSTOOD!
 Also You State, Quote: " You do not hurt velocity by enlarging the port " Come on now, Then why did GM start making the "peanut port" big block head? Why did they in the '80's start using a D-port exhaust? Oh yea, Should Chad have got the cheapy Mr. Gasket exhaust gaskets hanging on the wall at the local parts store & ground the exhaust port to that shape? May as well, while there on the bench covered with cast iron grit, it is free after all!   Those silly wabbits, You would think the engineers would have known this.
 On newer Chrysler's & some foregin cars why the vacuum controlled valve/gate that opens part of the intake as the RPM's go up? You admitted in your post about the water "stick the tip of your finger in & the velocity goes up"? So which is it?
 Then later, " if you enlarge the opening forming an egg" you agree that this hurts velocity. Is this not what you told Chad to do? "Open the head to the gasket size (that would be bigger than the runner in the head, Right? Then "trace the gasket shape & grind away" To anybody who can read & comprehend basic reading you have made half of "an egg" on the intake & half at the head entrance.
 I did not misunderstand any of this.
 Lets face it, Were not going to agree on this. I feel you, like ALLOT of people have been doing this "port matching" for years, not knowing what the TRUE results are. Please for your own knowledge & others here, do a little more research.  That's all, Chad just wanted to show off his new heads. Sorry! Lorne
 One more time, From David Vizard's Horsepower Vol.1 

[VileZambonie]

OK first of all Haulin it you are nit picking my post and that's why I stated if you misunderstood what I was trying to GENERICALLY convey you can use the gasket or a template to transpose the head port to the intake port. If that wasn't clear again I apologize. This post was typed quickly and was not meant as a lesson plan tutorial on port matching. It was done with the assumption that the average joe wouldn't go and enlarge their port to the size of big mac. My mistake if you took it that way or anyone else did. So no I never changed my mind, btw did you spend your whole night getting worked up over this? And Yes you misunderstood what I was obviously quickly trying to convey. Next time I will be sure to dot my i's and cross my t's so no wanna be engine builders will nit pick a simple concept incase they follow verbatim.

You do not hurt velocity by enlarging the port " Come on now, Then why did GM start making the "peanut port" big block head? Why did they in the '80's start using a D-port exhaust?

Do you know what a peanut port is? Do you know what happened in the "80's" Do you know why GM and all other manufacturers downsized EVERYTHING? And this

Oh yea, Should Chad have got the cheapy Mr. Gasket exhaust gaskets hanging on the wall at the local parts store & ground the exhaust port to that shape? May as well, while there on the bench covered with cast iron grit, it is free after all!   Those silly wabbits, You would think the engineers would have known this.

Are you saying you put your faith in engineers from GM putting your performance 1st? Not quite following where you are going with this other than it sounds like you are having a hissy fit.

On newer Chrysler's & some foregin cars why the vacuum controlled valve/gate that opens part of the intake as the RPM's go up? You admitted in your post about the water "stick the tip of your finger in & the velocity goes up"? So which is it?
 Then later, " if you enlarge the opening forming an egg" you agree that this hurts velocity. Is this not what you told Chad to do? "Open the head to the gasket size (that would be bigger than the runner in the head, Right? Then "trace the gasket shape & grind away" To anybody who can read & comprehend basic reading you have made half of "an egg" on the intake & half at the head entrance.

News flash this is not a Chrylser design. This is called Variable Intake Geometry shared by nearly all manufacturers. Do you know what an intake tuning valve is or does? Let me sum it up and simplify it for you. Longer intake runners help promote torque in low RPM ranges while essentially diverting the air through a shorter path at higher RPMS increases efficiency and power. Does this change the port match form the intake to the cylinder head? Nope so what does this have to do with port matching? not sure what your point was.... Have you ever heard of variable compression ratios? Saab...Imagine that? Does it change port alignment? Do any of these change port matches? Do you know what you are talking about or are you just good at scanning a crappy mondelo catalog you have from the eighties?

Is this not what you told Chad to do? "Open the head to the gasket size (that would be bigger than the runner in the head, Right? Then "trace the gasket shape & grind away" To anybody who can read & comprehend basic reading you have made half of "an egg" on the intake & half at the head entrance.
 I did not misunderstand any of this.

Apparently you have a hard time grasping this concept. MATCH YOUR PORTS AND USE YOUR GASKET AS A TEMPLATE. YOU CAN USE A PIECE OF PAPER BETWEEN THE TWO TO MAKE POSITIVE TRACE. There is no other better way to do this unless you have a really cool X-ray machine. If you want to pick apart my post then by all means go for it until you're blue in the face. It wasn't written as an official how to but a quick post reply assuming someone with average intelligence might use as a light into how to begin to port match.

Lets face it, Were not going to agree on this. I feel you, like ALLOT of people have been doing this "port matching" for years, not knowing what the TRUE results are.

You are right about one thing, I wouldn't agree with you on anything since it's obvious all you do is stick your nose in a book and try to quote articles as you interprit them. The bottom line is you think portmatching is waste of time, that velocity gains are done by working the bowl (I see the bowl you are working), and that quoting text that you barely understand is a fun hobby for you. Now feel free to nit pick again but you're taking away from why I even enjoy posting here. Pick a legitimate topic to debate instead of trying to pull apart a coffee break post k?

[Redneckchevy]

vile u make me laugh u help me learn...lmao and how u can do both at the same time ...Its amazing lol

[VileZambonie]

vile u make me laugh u help me learn...lmao and how u can do both at the same time ...Its amazing lol

Glad you enjoy and learn! That's what I do for a living and that's what I enjoy the most is helping others if I can. At the very least I'm glad we can all get out a good laugh at the end of the day 

[JRConnieK10]

Vile I've never done it personally but I just shared your opinion with my wife and she understood perfectly what you were saying keep up the good work no offense to any others but I agree it's not to have a pi##ing match to see who knows more. Sorry just my opinion.

[SUX2BU99]

I certainly don't mind the roundy-round of discussion in my thread. Port-matching, as far as I've heard and read, has been sort of a 'luxury' item that performance builders do on higher-end motors and that's probably why that one shop didn't recommend for me to do it. I'd like to at least have it checked. If it's fairly close, meaning there is 1/16" or less of mis-match, then I'm not going to worry too much about it. 1/8" would make me think, but 1/4" is pretty substantial. It's all about ridges and turbulence. It would be nice if ports from different manf's matched up with each other, but it's really not reality. Even though I will have Dart heads and a Dart intake, there's no guarantees.

Vile, to do a head and intake swap in-truck like I will require, what would you charge typically? With and without port matching?

One thing that also came to mind is I've been looking heavily into various SBC engine builds that I can find on the 'net, particularly by magazines since they document them fairly well. They never seem to port match their stuff.

[VileZambonie]

Port matching - I would typically charge another 2-3 hours labor. Porting would be by the hour and that can get very time consuming!

For heads and intake replaced about $500 if you are my friend and about $850 for a customer.

To do a new cam & lifters/ timing chain add about $280 bucks labor to the job. A job like this coming into my shop I would recommend the customer just have me rebuild him the engine because he'd have a better final product with a spiffy new look and probably only spend a few hundred bucks more.

[HAULIN IT]

Chris, As I stated earlier, I truly apologize to everyone for "stirring the pot". However I felt it was worthwhile stating my opinion. If nothing else, maybe somebody will do some research of their own due to the differences in our opinions. Vile & I can work on our differences as we see fit. Good Luck on your project! Thank you all, Lorne

[Captkaos]

As long as you keep it Civil I don't mind at all.  I think SUX2BU99 would need an appology more than me as it was his post.

[HAULIN IT]

I agree, Chad sorry for getting off track. Just trying to help, kinda went around the barn though. Good Day, Lorne