73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Engine/Drivetrain => Topic started by: Stewart G Griffin on December 03, 2008, 03:03:38 pm
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Something new suddenly appeared today:
Some background, just to reiterate:
i have a non-computer HEI and a non computer quadrajet. The distributor might be from a 76 chevelle, i'm not sure. But i have been wanting to replace this distributor for a long time.
What's happening is that the engine seems to be running not as smooth as before. Also, the vaccuum gauge does not hold steady---jumps around a bit. If i keep the rpms above, say, 1500 rpm the engine will keep running, if not the engine will stall out.
When i get to a stop sign or slow down for a turn, the vacuum gauge goes crazy---all over the dial. And the engine will stall out unless i shift into neutral and give the engine some gas to at least 1500 rpm.
The engine ran perfectly fine yesterday and the day before.
What do you think is the problem?
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Check your choke, check your basic ignition components, check for vacuum leaks.
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i think the choke is ok as i checked underhood and it was open; Why would the choke be causing these problems. Let's say that the choke was stuck closed---the engine would still run wouldn't it?
i am leaning towards something in the distributor, but will check vacuum leaks as well.
Plug wires seem ok.
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I would check the timing, probably indicate the distributor advance wigging out. I had that happen to an earlier Chevy 10 years ago. My $.02
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i'm thinking it has something to do with the distributor's timing being off too----as i have to keep it revved up pretty high to prevent stalling.
i forgot to mention that i could not twist the distributor housing so that means it did not move and retard it's timing that way.
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How about the chain jumped ?
Rotate engine till TDC and check the Rotor
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i hope not, although that is a possibility. The engine runs not too unsmoothy at about 2000rpm although there is some roughness there that wasn't there before. So, i'm thinking it's probably not the chain.
i'll get this all sorted out hopefully in the next few days. i have to go to work soon and it looks like will have to ride my bike---about 12 miles.
My other car is at my apartment, which is too far to drive with the truck in this condition.
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Well its a nice time to ride the bike (I think you said you were near DC) in the Nations Capital :)
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You'll just have to eliminate things one at a time...like fouled spark plug, spark plug wire burnt, as Vile said-- choke misadjustment--it should be open all the way after just a minute or two of running, vacuum line fell off-hence vacuum leak, cracked distr. cap, faulty egr, etc..
keep us posted
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Could be bad gas too.
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Could be bad gas too.
Every time I get a milkshake I get that too
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i think i'm just going to switch back to the esc distributor i have lying around unused to save time and money.
Can i put the distributor in as close as possible to the one being taken out and try to get the rotor in the same position as the old one or do i have to do the #1 TDC routine?
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Could be bad gas too.
Every time I get a milkshake I get that too
;D
Stewart, just pop the cap off and see which direction the rotor points. Then pull the distributor out, place the new one in and try to point the rotor in the same direction at the where the old one was pointing. It may be a gear tooth or two off before the distributor will slide in, if that is the case, and the rotor goes in clockwise slightly, turn the distributor slightly in same direction so when the cap goes on, the rotor still points to same plug wire on cap. Then tighten the distributor hold down clamp up, but not too much, so you can time it.
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Should i use a new gasket?
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It's probably a good idea for those who are very meticulous, however, I am far from it. I reuse mine :o
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i have determined--------through a "strong hunch" (NOTE:i know absolutely zilch about distributors and ignition systems in general) that the distributor body, cam gear, shaft and bearings are ok. Despite my non-knowledge of distributors, i can still visually see and sense that the above mentioned items are ok; Thus, this strongly must mean that they probably are?
So, i've decided to swap parts from the not-being-used ESC distributor to the present distributor in the truck----because it's probably wiser and more efficient this way, but also because i don't want to get into having to take the distributor out and put a different one in. i think i can swap everything except for the module? First, i plan on swapping out the vacuum advance thing---because, i believe, that symtoms suggest that this is the problem.
Anyways, upon starting to take apart the not-being-used right now ESC distributor, i can see that the vaccuum advance thing pulls on the larger "star wheel" thing making it go counter-clockwise. Since the rotor and shaft and smaller "star wheel" turn clockwise, this means that when the larger "star wheel" thing gets turned counter-clockwise, the electrical contact will happen sooner---thus advanced timing?
When both sharp points of both star wheels line up, this produces a magnetic signal which is then sent to the module which then sends the signal "upstairs" to the coil which then sends this to the rotor, and depending on which post on the dist cap the rotor is pointing to will send the electrical signal to the corresponding spark plug thru the plug wire?
Assuming the above is true, (more or less) what i can't visualize is how the centrifical advance works. i know what is for----as the engine rpm increases, so does the distributor rotor's rpm and these weights are supposed to swing outwards somehow advancing timing which the engine really needs at higher rpms.
But i can't visualize it like i can with vacuum advance because it seems like these weights are above where the "star wheels" are.
Could you explain to me how centrifugal advance physically works to advance timing?
i know it may be hard to do without pictures, but i have a distributor sitting right in front of me.
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sounds like to me you just might need a tune up, also if your going to do the distributor thing then just switch it. might as well instead of just leaving the pick up coil that lil star thing you keep on talking bout and changing everything else. i really don't know if it will help but its easer in my opinion to change the who thing instead of working with the icm, va and Pu coil. I'm trying to think about when my 86 was acting up think it was the timing but want the only prob think the carb need adjustment also. pull the vacuum line off the advance and see if anything changes.
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Just spend $50 bucks and get a new loaded distributor Click here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Sbc-Bbc-Small-block-Big-Block-Chevy-Hei-Distributor_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a15Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1308QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem200281562985QQitemZ200281562985QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)
The HEI system utilizes an all electronic module, pickup coil and timer core in place of the conventional breaker points, condenser and distributor cam. In addition, a specially designed ignition coil, distributor cap, rotor and high tension leads are used to provide and distribute high intensity secondary system voltages to the spark plugs.
The magnetic pickup consists of a rotating timer core attached to the distributor shaft, a stationary pole piece, permanent magnet and pickup coil. When the distributor shaft rotates, the teeth of the timer core line up and pass the teeth of the pole piece inducing voltage in the pickup coil which signals the electronic module to open the ignition coil primary circuit. Since this is a full 12 volt system that does not use a resistance wire, high current saturation occurs in the coil primary windings. Maximum inductance occurs at the moment the timer core teeth are lined up with the teeth on the pole piece. At the instant the timer core teeth start to pass the pole teeth, the module opens the primary circuit, and the current decay causes a high voltage to be induced in the ignition coil secondary winding. The high secondary voltage is directed through a specially designed cap, rotor and high voltage leads to fire the spark plugs.
HEI systems use conventional vacuum and centrifugal advance mechanisms. The vacuum diaphragm is connected by linkage to the pole piece. When the diaphragm moves against spring pressure it rotates the pole piece allowing the poles to advance relative to the timer core. The timer core is rotated about the shaft by conventional advance weights, thus providing centrifugal advance.
Some models are equipped with and Electronic Spark Control (ESC) system that controls spark timing in order to provide maximum engine performance while preventing detonation. The ESC system consists of an engine mounted knock sensor and an electronic controller. ESC is a closed loop system that monitors engine detonation through a sensor and constantly adjusts ignition timing to provide the maximum usable spark advance while preventing prolonged detonation.
The ESC knock sensor monitors the presence and intensity of engine detonation by sensing the resultant vibrations. The sensor produces a voltage signal which is proportional to the intensity of the detonation and this voltage signal is transmitted to the controller. The ESC controller is a hard wired signal processor/amplifier that operates in the 6-16 volt range, and has no memory storage provisions. The controller monitors knock sensor voltage output, processes these signals and controls the amount of spark advance through a special circuit in the HEI ignition module.
In addition, models with automatic transmissions include an ESC vacuum switch. The vacuum switch provides a signal to the ESC controller during throttle tip-in which causes the module to momentarily retard spark timing to prevent detonation on acceleration.
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thanks for the link, but what brand are these distributors and where are they made? In china perhaps?
Because in order to sell it that cheap and for the seller to make a profit..........etc. etc. etc.......
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I'm sure like everything that is manufactured for sale for our "American" vehicles it was made overseas. Nevertheless I know several people that have used them. I am putting one in a 68 firebird next week that the guy wants to convert to HEI. He bought it from the same seller. I'll let you know how it goes if you want.
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the seller has terrific feedback. That's what I look at when buy from that site.
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Yes, please let us know how it goes. To be honest, i'm very skeptical at a $49 brand new distributor no matter how shiny.
2) i just grabbed the bottom of the distributor at the cam gear and found out that the part where the centrifugal weights are actually can turn independent of the shaft clockwise---which advances timing. So now i basically, as far as the physical part of it, understand how a distributor works which considering just two days ago, i basically had no idea, is pretty amazing.
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I installed one in my sons truck and it works GREAT. It has WAY too much advance so I installed one of these Crane advance kits from Summitt Racing:
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o317/jjsabol/crane.jpg)
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CRN-99600-1&autoview=sku
and installed it in accordance with this article:
http://www.73-87.com/7387garage/drivetrain/hei.htm
Hope this helps - good luck.
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Alright what just happened is i swapped vacuum advance canisters---and no improvment.
So, what else could be causing the following symptoms:
The engine will stall out unless i rev it to at least 1000rpmish. If i release the accelerator it engine goes to 700-600-500 and then stalls out---this is in neutral. And this condition just started 4 days ago. Before this it ran just fine.
Let's assume:
1)it has nothing to do with the carburetor and/or fuel system.
2) The distributor body never moved (counterclockwise or clockwise) thus the intial timing could not have changed from 4 days ago. So this is a very strong assumtion with good supporting evidence---i couldn't rotate it.
3) All vaccum lines are good ( i checked)
4) All plugs and plug wires are good (i also checked)
So what else could be causing the above problem? Remember that the engine runs ok, more or less, above 1200 rpm.
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cup your hand over the airhorn on the carburetor and see what it does.
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i was hoping we could just assume it's not the carb or fuel system for now.
Alright let's say i do put my hand over the the horn; What is this supposed to or not supposed to do?
2) P.S.
when examining the inside of the distributor today, it looked all crusty. The weights had an orange/brownish appearance as opposed the normal silver color. Also, i could not move the vacuum advance by hand although that has turned out not to be the problem. The person i bought the distributor from said, i believe, from a 76 chevelle. So, the distributor may very well be 33 years old.
3) So what "brand" are these razzle-dazzle distributors everyone has taken a shine(pun intended) to?
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Does your truck have EGR?
Restricting the air flow will help us determine if it is a lean condition or not
You probably saw insulation crumbling from the pick up coil or rust from around the pole piece
What are you looking for in a replacement distributor? Performance? Oem?
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I think the biggest "razzle dazzle" brand would be MSD. That's what mine is - an HEI Pro Billet. But if I had it to do all over again, I would have just freshened up my stock HEI with this kit (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=PNX%2DD8000&autoview=sku) from Petronix. Probably would result in about the same performance for about $250 less than the Pro Billet.
If you want a 100% new distributor, this one (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MSD%2D8362&N=700+400122+4294881256+115&autoview=sku) looks nice, but I have no experience with it. Looks like my distrubutor but with the lower grade module (still better than factory) and cast aluminum housing (as opposed to billet).
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By "razzle-dazzle" i mean the $49.95 ebay unit that everyone is holding in high esteem.
1) yes, i have egr
2) as far as replacement(s), i would prefer oem---i'm thinking ac delco, anything known name brand and good quality. The GM performance parts one, i originally, thought was too hi-po, but after doing more reading on distributors, i'm thinking it might, with it's curve, be really good with the 350 crate engine i have.
More info on the situation:
the engine starts fairly easy.
the idle speed screw is not the problem because i just tell it isn't
Actually, let's just rephrase the whole question:
The engine will not keep running unless i gas it up to 1000rpm or so.
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Make sure the egr isn't hung open.
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Good idea.
How do i check this?
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try picking up on the diaphragm or simply pull it off and check
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PT.3
You'll have to forgive me, as i know alarmingly little about cars; i may think that i do---as far as specs, options etc., but i really know jack about the mechanical workings of cars. i'm not an engine person---more of a driver.
So what i'd like to propose for this situation, if i may ask of all of you, if for a highly detailed, step-by-step plan of attack and diagnosis and action.
To make it simple, the problem is:
At rpm's below 900ish rpm, the engine will stall out.
1)it does not matter if in gear or not
2) the idle speed screw is not the problem, but i'm willing to "test" this because of the new highly detailed, step-by-step, plan request. As an additional note when the truck was running normally, which was only 5 days ago, it idles at 500-600rpm in gear.
3) when testing both vacuum advance canisters, i moved the lever up (most advanced position),put my thumb over the hole and in both instances the lever went back to resting position. After i took my thumb off the hole, there was a puckering sound in both instances. i'm not sure if this is a valid way to test vacuum advance canisters?
4) the engine runs ok enough at rpm's of 1000 or higher. Pretty much just like before.
5)At 900-700 rpm the engine sounds (and feels vibration-wise)like a pro-stocker with a very radical cam,---whereas normally my engine is normally sewing machine smooth at those rpms.
Please, pretty please, pretend like i'm 5 yrs old or something and i'm trapped in outer space or something and the only way for me to escape is for me to fix the problem. i know we can do it.
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5)At 900-700 rpm the engine sounds (and feels vibration-wise)like a pro-stocker with a very radical cam,---whereas normally my engine is normally sewing machine smooth at those rpms.
Head gasket blown? Do a compression test.
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stewart still having problems?
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Yes, sorry it took so long to get back. i have been working quite a bit of hours lately----i suppose that is a good thing with today's "supposed" bad economy.
i will update as soon as i can. i have a service manual on the way.
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Did you make sure the EGR valve isn't hanging open as suggested?
Did you see if holding your hand over the air horn made a difference?
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i haven't for several reasons:
a)i was/am very busy
b) i'm not quite sure how to test the EGR valve; i need step-by-step, very detailed instructions. Preferably with pictures. The Sgt's. post on changing a ball joint is an excellent example of what i'm talking about. i suppose for someone who really knows and teaches, it's easy to blurt out the answer in a a short fragment or sentence--my dad taught college and he was/is the same way. Don't get me wrong---i definitely appreciate the help and concern, but i really don't know jack about cars. i thought i did, but i definitely don't. Thus, i need to be spoon fed the info----just like i'm 4 years old or something----because, really, when it comes to cars, i am 4 years old or something.
Yes, i'm asking for a handout. But what's wrong with that? If people have an objection to this way of teaching----and some people do (can't imagine why), then that is sort of ok too; i've ordered a service manual and am looking on youtube for videos on how to check EGR and other things.
c) About the air horn thing. i'm not sure if i can do it right now because if the engine stalls out without my foot on the gas, by the time i get my hand to the carb, the engine is no longer running. Now, i could jack up the idle speed screw to prevent this, but i don't want to. Thus, i've ordered a remote starter which i feel is a good thing to have anyways.
But again, thanks for all the help. i'll report back ASAP.
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Ok, so anyways i changed the pcv valve----because it needed changing anyways because it's been on there since i got the truck and it's only $2.95 anyways. A little improvement but really the problem is still there; It may not stall out anymore but the idle is still rough to the point where the engine is barely running at 600 rpm. i think if the engine really got warmed up, it would very probably revert to stalling out.
Next, we get to the EGR valves.
By the way, the service manual came in and it is fatter than 2 phone books. And the manual was saying that there are 2 types of EGR. How do you tell if you got positive or negative feedback EGR?
i took this one off the engine for inspection:
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/100_0412.jpg)
This other one, i took off the 305 i have sitting in the garage for comparison:
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/100_0413.jpg)
a) for the top one, the one off the truck, i was able to push the diaphram in and if i kept my finger over the vacuum supply opening, the diaphram would stay inwards until i took my finger off and then the diaphram would move back to resting position.
2) How do you test the vacuum advance canister? i've read that you move the lever to the most advanced position and put your finger over the place where the vaccuum hose would connect and it, the lever, should not move until you release your finger? Suprisingly, the manual, says nothing about testing vacuum advance, or at least i'm unable to find it.
3) P.S. i should also mention that when the engine is "idling", or doing it's best attempt to "idle," the vacuum gauge swings broadly all over the gauge in rhythm with the engine.
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put your other egr valve on it and don't bother hooking up the vacuum hose. There should be no vacuum to it anyway idling (make sure of this) and see what it does.
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Sooooooo..........you're saying i should put the one that came off the dormant 305 on the truck?
P.S.
i have come to the conclusion that the so-called "old-school" setup, that being carburetor and distributor, is not nessesarily easier to diagnoise and repair than, say, a 98 or 2008 silverado. In fact, i believe that the "current" electronic technology may even be easier to fix. i think the key is familiarity.
Example: This post is 3 pages, lasted one week and problem still not solved.
My main reason for trying to fix it myself is mainly distrust of the dealer and/or private shop. i'm not saying all shops and dealers suck, i just haven't been able to find and keep a good one. i am not sure of why today's dealers can't fix cars. i don't think it is due to incompetance, but then again......... . Maybe they don't give a dang. Then again, the quality of everything seems to be going downhill. i don't really have much time to mess with this, but i don't see any other choice. And you wonder why gm is dying.
The second reason is that i just find cars interesting.
If i could find a good shop, i would take it there to have it serviced due to my time constraints.
i consider the setup of quadrajet and HEI is sort of like hamburger, fries and coke; Good solid dependable food. (and not junky crap like McDonalds, BK etc, i'm talking about hamburgers served at deli's or sit-down type restaurants, i.e., Shoneys/Denny's etc.). Whereas coil-on-plug electronicized ignition and Electronic fuel injection could be considered Fillet mignon and aspargus on the side with maybe some wine. Both are good food, but the second one is more sophisticated.
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I will try to suggest this again try a tune up. check your wires at night with engine running and one less thing check for a vacuum leak around the manifold or anywere else. i don't think egr valve has anything to do with it cause you can just bock it off and the engine runs good, the distributor simply because the engine is running
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3) P.S. i should also mention that when the engine is "idling", or doing it's best attempt to "idle," the vacuum gauge swings broadly all over the gauge in rhythm with the engine.
Stewart, I feel your pain.
Could you get us a video of your vacuum gauge hooked up? A vacuum gauge can be an invaluable diagnostics tool. This could lead us to a direct fix.
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i will try; i tell you it is bizzarre. If i rev it up to 1200 or so the vac gauge needle will stabilize out at it's normal place, which to me (maybe i'm reading it wrong) is at 40-50 lbs. or 6 o'clockish. Then, when i let completely off the pedal, with each "rump" of the engine, the needle will move from 9 o'clock to 3o'clock in exactly rhythm with each "rump."
i'm thinking it might be that flapper door thing on the right-side exhaust manifold ( i still have the stock ones installed).
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Stewart, I am confused ???
Vacuum gauges read in inches of mercury(in Hg). What are you reading that shows 40-50 lbs?
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i kinda figured i was reading it wrong. It's definitely a vacuum gauge, but there are actually something like 3 rings of number on the gauge and i am reading the outside ring, and to make it simple, the 6 o'clock setting is the normal idle and high vacuum (like coasting) setting.
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yes just pop the other egr valve on it.
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i will try the EGR thing as soon as i can, Mr. Vile.
The one other thing i can add, and this sort of came to me as a dream or i was half-asleep-half-awake is that if you can imagine a steam locomotive----it "chugs." Well, my engine does that below 950ish rpm and it does this in rhythm at say 700-800 rpm. And then, the vacuum gauge is at 9 o'clock position during the "ch" sound, and then at the "g" sound, the needle of the vac gauge is at the 3 o'clock position. And this is done in rhythm with each and every "chug."
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Well now you can write a song to the tune of your chugging engine. Eliminate the EGR as a possible cause. If it's stuck open it will act like a horrible vacuum leak, the engine won't idle and if it does it will idle poorly. Your vacuum gauge will read crazy. It's an easy enough thing to eliminate to determine if it's stuck open.
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"I hear a train a coming..."
Sorry, Johnny Cash just popped into my head :D
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This problem is really getting lame.
Anyways,
1) The engine seems like it won't stall out anymore, but the overall problem is still there---very rough idle. Therefore, i was able run around to the front to do the cupping hand over the carb horn thing, and what happened was that the rpm tended to go down almost to stalling, but before stalling i would remove my hand because i didn't feel like re-starting the engine.
2) RE: EGR
i tried the EGR thing without hooking up the vacuum hose and no-real improvement---besides the less propensity to stall out. But the thing about EGR situation is, and i didn't really catch this was:
i noticed that the "tube" mechanisms of both EGR valves are different heights.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/100_0419.jpg)
But the "pintle" mechanism/valves are roughly at the same height in both instances, therefore both EGR are sealing ok.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/100_0420-1.jpg)
In addition, i could not blow air thru either one of them until i pushed up on the diaphrams, so therefore i'm ASSuming both valves are good. As another note, i would not recommend blowing or sucking on the valves (unless you have a rubber tube connected to them) as they taste awful.
3) Vacuum advance:
Is the engine supposed to recieving any vacuum advance at idle? i'm thinking (then hoping and then demanding) yes?
So what i did was, and please refer to the following diagram, i hooked vaccum advance directly to the carb, at the final red arrow where it would normally feed into eventually a, which is a distributor delay valve and then into b, which is, of course, a thermal vacuum switch.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/100_0421-1-1.jpg)
No improvment.
4)what else could cause an HEI to retard besides the distributor body rotating clockwise?
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i cant seam to find my Haynes manual anywear but if you look at the trouble shooting part and then look at engine lopes at low rpm it will tell you what to look at thats the best i can tell you since everthing else i tell you just gets blown off
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Stewart:
If the EGR isn't hanging open and you are 100% positive then just check your basics. Don't worry about the vacuum advance just set the initial timing. Check all of your spark plugs and gaps. Check your wires and the firing order. Check the cap and rotor. If everything checks out ok and you have no major vacuum leaks check the needle and seat in the carb.
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X2
Ty vile
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Have you checked all the plugs and wires? Timing?
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Yes, i'm pretty sure all the plugs and wires are ok and in correct order. The distributor itself is ok. i am about to embark on the carb rebuild; The only reason why i haven't started is i need to get my transportation/life planning ironed out for the next 1-3 months or so.
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.......The sad, strange and stupid saga begins another chapter............
Welp, i've decided to start on the carb rebuild.
NOTE:
1) This process may take a while and go slow because a) my slightly tight financial situation(due to miscalculations on my part, unexpected medical bills and maybe the economy) and b) i have other things going on and c) i may have to wait on some parts on tools to come in.
2) This is not the cleanest carb in town.
i got the carb off the engine and my questions at this point are:
1) Regarding the accelerator pump arm, i've read that all hi-po applications---gto, corvette etc., use the hole closest to the pivot---this is the rod that connects the throttle to accel pump arm. i would think that the hole farthest away from the pivot would provide more leverage and thus more "squirt?"
2) Does anyone offhand know what size torx bolts on the top of the carb?
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/100_0426-1.jpg)
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The answer to 1)The hole farthest to the pivot point does have more leverage but less travel(not more "squirt") then the closer hole to the pivot point.
2) bit size is a T25.
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Thanks, i forgot to ask also what torx sizes are the bolts that attach the vacuum break canister and the idle stop solenoid? Apparently, more recent quadrajets had these instead of regular bolts.
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Like yourself, I know only the basics about cars/trucks. But I do know that a vacuum leak will be your undoing unless you go over every hose carefully.
When I was about 8, my dad had his car die on him when he went to start it after work. He is one of the smartest guys I know when it comes to cars and even with a trunk full of tools he ended up getting it towed home. After 2 days of troubleshooting ignition, wiring, plugs, wires, etc. he happened to stumble upon a vacuum line that was hanging off of the associated port. Not off completely, just open enough to cause problems. He put the hose back in place and she fired right up.
As vile said - go back to basics. If you let those ideas swim around in your head, you'll go insane.
When I read early in this thread your "assumptions" I cringed. Don't do it Stewart, ASSUME makes and ASS out of U and ME. Do you know FOR SURE your fuel delivery system is up to par? Especially the pump? The distributor, the timing, the wires, the plugs? Check everything vacuum related, and drop the $49 on the new distributor. With the remote engine switch and the carb rebuild, you'd have paid for it already. It is 33 years old after all, and might just have had enough.
Just my $0.02 from a broke and learning truck enthusiast.
Smitty
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1) i discovered that the airhorn bolts, as well as the vaccuum break cannister and idle stop solenoid are all T-25. The very small bolt that secures the secondary metering rods, i had to cheat and use a vice-grip pliers on. i will purchase the appropriate bit during re-assembly.
2) Some of the parts are green. Why is this? Are they metal and safe to use carb cleaner on?
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/65b83eff.jpg)
3) i went to best buy to get some compressed air cans, but discovered that there is some sort of gas in them---it's not just compressed air. Given that carb cleaner is volatile, i did not want to take any chances. Any other solutions? Can i just let the carb and parts air dry after using carb cleaner on them? i may be able to borrow a compressor.
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It's inert gas. You can use it. You can clean your parts with carb cleaner
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You're absolutely sure about this? There won't be an explosion? Just want to make sure.
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LOL. Explosions make auto repair entertaining. What, afraid you'll get your eyebrows singed. :D
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carb cleaner is very flammable and so is gas but the two togeather doesn't make a deadly cocktail unless you drink it
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Just spray it with the carb cleaner and let air dry. Probably take 10 minutes at most, but I'm betting after 5 most traces will have evaporated. FYI, compressor air isn't all that pure. And as a suggestion, see if you can get yourself a portable air tank for $30 at Harbor Freight or something. Wal-mart may even carry them, Have your buddy fill it and you'll be good to go for a while.
Link here: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=41712 (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=41712)
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Not to be a pest, but the parts aren't drying real fast; It's been about 2 hours and they're still wet. Also, the canned air does not seem to be working real good. It's safe and all but it just seems to be blowing the carb cleaner around---not drying it.
Should i just wait longer?
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the carb cleaner will dry out but if you have a puddle of it it will just take longer to evaporate
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Not to be a pest, but the parts aren't drying real fast; It's been about 2 hours and they're still wet. Also, the canned air does not seem to be working real good. It's safe and all but it just seems to be blowing the carb cleaner around---not drying it.
Should i just wait longer?
Sorry about that. I just remembered - last time I used the stuff was outside on a warm day. It evaporates quick in those conditions. A puddle will take longer to dry on the shop bench. If you want to move it along shake off as much excess as possible and put a fan next to it to move the air. Or even better a quartz heater set on low to move some warm air over it.
Nothing like a freshly rebuilt carb. I had a Chevelle that needed to be primed each time you started it and ran like crap. Then my dad rebuilt it and tuned it - boy what a difference!
Edited to add: That canned air is cold stuff, and if you spray too long and too hard it will actually freeze the surface. Ever do the upside-down-can-squirt on a coworker?
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lol freezer burn :o
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The greasy, oily parts are gonna need some encouragement. After spraying them down I'd suggest attcking them with an old toothbrush, but not, for example, a stainless bristle brush (as it would remove the finish). Then spray 'em down again with the carb cleaner. And as others have mentioned the temp affects how quickly the cleaner evaporates, don't worry so much about this.
I wouldn't stress out about every little thing, just in get in there, use your best judgment, and have a blast. Make mental notes (or better yet a diagrams) along the way of how everything was oriented/attached before removing it. Also, it helps to bag and tag fasteners and small parts. Being methodical really pays off on jobs like this. A good reference is key as well. I assume from your previous posts you are using Doug Roe's book. If so, good choice. Good Luck.
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1) the fan idea seems to be working good.
2) i'm using 3 books---Doug Roe's, Ruggle's and Haynes'es. All three are informative, but not nessesarily written in a way that a person with no carburetor experience, like me, can easily understand. Also, all three have conflicting information not only with each other, but in certain circumstances with themselves! Also, i feel, that none of them are complete and in-depth enough for someone with no experience. And this is speaking from an unbiased view---i'm usually an anal person, but in this case i'm being unbiased. i will probably go into deeper detail concerning all three books(and in car books in general) when this problem is taken care of.
3) Anyways, moving on i discovered, upon further examination---perhaps i didn't have enough light before, that this is a dirty dude:
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/f9a6b450.jpg)
There was all kinds of crap in there, even dog/cat or human hair----i have no idea how it got in there. i also gently scratched away with the screwdriver so we can get an idea of what's going on in there; It looks like the type of desert that has orangish sand---i.e., sahara?
4) The next problem is that when i took the airhorn off, the outer, larger "air tubes" apparently fell off and were just laying in the "auxiliary fuel chambers" in the exact positions as depicted in this picture: Note that these are not the actual tubes, they are nails---i gently tapped the tubes back into the airhorn with a hammer, perhaps a little prematurely as after i put them in, i did more reading and it is recommended to use locktite on them before reinstalling them. i'm not sure i want to try to take them out for fear of bending or damaging them.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/5915896e.jpg)
a) what are these "auxiliary fuel wells/chambers" for?
b) what are the tubes for?
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a) The small chambers ("wells" is the proper term, I believe), on either side of the main well, feed the secondary enrichment circuit. They are fed with tiny little holes that connect them to the main well (at about the height of your letters "b" and "e" in the second pic).
b) The tubes draw fuel from these wells and on to small discharge holes above the secondary air valve (refer to the pic at the top of page 52 in Roe's book).
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Next question:
The rebuild kit came with a seat with 2 large "windows" on the sides. The seat that i removed (and i'm assuming this is the stock setup) was solid with no holes/windows on the sides.
What is your opinion (if any) concerning both? Cliff says no difference except the solid has and advantage with drainback----if the car/truck sits a while between uses. No big deal to me as i have always had to crank/pump alot if i didn't drive the truck for a days/weeks.
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Are there any differences between the stock float needle and the one you got in the rebuild kit? It seems that the window style simply allows fuel to exit at the windows rather than working it's way up past the needle body. Just a slight design tweak. When you buy a high-performance rebuild kit (http://www.cliffshighperformance.com/parts.html) from Cliff's he uses the "window" style seat. So my guess is that it's OK.
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Yes, i didn't think there was that big a difference---i installed the new seat. The carb is back together. i don't see what everyone fusses about?
For the choke arm, i tilited the carb on its side and then guided the arm in with a paper clip and then was able to match it's angle with the choke lever rod's "dowel" setting. For the power piston i stuck a thin screwdriver on it to keep it from popping up while i lowered the airhorn down and then slid the screwdriver out at the last minute.
The most time consuming part(besides getting the tools, reading and waiting for the parts to come in) was actually waiting for the carb cleaner to dry. After it dried and the petroluem smell went away, i was able to take it all inside and assemble it, because it is getting cold around here.
So, hopefully this solves the problem. If not, it's probably the pump. i'm running out of things it could possibly be.
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Even if it doesn't solve the problem, you now have a nice "like-new" carb. And it was a valuable learning experience. Are you using the 1/4" thick heat insulating base gasket?
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It's pretty thick, i'll have to measure it.
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No need. I was just making sure you ended up with the right gasket. It it's "pretty thick" it's the right one.
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OK, so i think i've pinpointed the problem----there is serious flooding going on; The new airhorn-to-main bowl gasket was drenched with gasoline, there were puddles of gas on the intake manifold and there was gas on the flare nut(i didn't tighten it enough). Also, before the carb was rebuilt and this overall problem started happening i subconscienciously noticed these puddles but thought that they were coolant, possibly due to not having enough lighting, also the air cleaner was probably blocking my view. Thus, i didn't consider it a problem.
The reason why i was able to tell now is i know what a new gasket should look like and could tell right off the bat that gas was getting on it whereas the old one was probably pretty drenched to the point where it changed colors. i know that the fuel level in a quadrajet bowl should be at most 3/4 full and definitely not higher than the bowl top.
During the carb rebuild, i put in a new float and checked the level to be good. i also vacuum tested the new needle+seat and put in a new filter. i also checked the old needle+seat, float and those were found to be good and at the right levels.
So, assuming the carb itself is not the problem, what else could cause flooding? Is it possible for a pump to go bad to be putting out too much pressure? The other possibility is there could be trash in the fuel system, but i don't think this is likely as when i rebuilt the carb, it wasn't that bad.
NOTEs:
a) i have a vapor return line on the pump.
b) the service manual says there should be 5-9 lbs. (will provide more detail later, don't have the service manual in front of me---i'm at work) This sounds like too much?
i wasn't able to test the pump pressure last night, will probably be able to get to it tonight.
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OK, scratch the previous post; i took care of the flooding all over the intake manifold problem--what happened was the inlet nut was not tightened enough. i saw it today because what happened was i got my fuel pressure gauge hooked up and in order to see it, i had to start the engine and then rush over to the front of the truck. And i'm glad i did because it was gushing out.
So anyways, fuel pump pressure is ok--within limits. And by the way to clarify--the service manual says 5.5-7lbs. for small blocks if you have a return line. If you don't have a return line, then 7.5-9lbs. small and big block. Big block with return line is 7.5-9lbs. And all inline 6's 4.5-6lbs.
No improvement. We are basically back to square one. i will try to get a video up on how the vacuum gauge is acting. i don't think, at this point, that the carb is flooding but i'm not ruling it out. i guess the next thing to do is check the float with the engine running. i know you need a special tool for that.
i'm looking towards a sticking valve, although i have my doubts about that; Let's say that a sticking valve or lifter was causing the engine to run crappy at idle. Wouldn't this also cause the engine to run crappy at higher rpm also?
2) i think at this point we should talk about the "pouring something in the carb while the engine is running thing." i have heard about this and i actually once saw some mechanics doing this but up until a few minutes ago (i've been doing some more reading) i didn't know what they were doing. Supposedly this help free up sticky valves. It could not hurt to try this. My engine was installed in 97. i think it is called seafoam?
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I've heard pour a lil bit of oil in the carb and watch for smoke to come out of the engine, shows if you have a vacuum leak. now seafoam goes in the crank case and fuel tank to clean the fuel system and you add it to the crank case to quit "noisy lifters" that ain't your problem tho.
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Maybe you could use a product like Seafoam as preventative maintainence, but not as a fix-it. And I realize that people do it, but adding it to the crankcase just seems like you're asking for a spun bearing.
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OK, i think i'm going to hold off on the seafoam/marvel mystery oil etc. for now;
At this point i wish to profusely thank everyone for all the help. It seems like interest in this problem is waning and i totally understand----it has dragged on WAY too long---over a month. If anyone wants to drop out, this is totally understandable. i will still soldier on, although it might be at a slower pace.
i think what i'm going to do now is to anally go back thru everything and do it right starting from the ignition system. i'll just read books and i won't come to the net and post every little detail unless i really get stumped.
Well, actually, before that, i'm going to try one last thing for this community effort and that is to post a video of how the truck is running and what the vacuum gauge is doing. i think that will really help.
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I think that your ignition system would be an excellent place to start (or continue, rather). You know your carb is newly refurbished so that eliminates it as a suspect, unless it just started a new "misbehavior" after the rebuild.
Also here's a guide for reading a vacuum gauge. Tuning with a vacuum gauge (http://www.centuryperformance.com/tuning-with-a-vacuum-gauge-spg-148.html) Here's one with an animated gauge. How to Use and Interpret a Vacuum Gauge (http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm) Not sure about the accuracy, but check it out. Posting a video may help the pro's (not me, LOL) here help you, so that's a great idea. Good luck.
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stewart you vac gauge will read funny cause your engine is loaping you can't get a accurate read in it till you fix the loaping. every time you hit the low rpms you gauge will drop then when it hits the high rpm it will increase
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test video
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i'll get the video up a.s.a.p.; It's too dark and i'm trying to find a way to brighten it.
In the meantime, if after you shut an engine off and see vapory stuff coming out of the carb is this normal? This is sort of like a dry ice type thing you might have seen at rock concerts (they don't do it anymore because everyone stinks these days, but kiss, rush etc did it). It's not true smoke but it looks like it. If i open the throttle by hand it really comes out.
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That's gasoline. Sounds like maybe you still have carb problems? Is your well plug leaking?
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OK, i finally got my video right. It's not great, but it's the best i can do for now:
First off, i apologize for the poor quality; i can't quite figure out how to get regular, non-digital videos on the net, so i used my digital picture camera's video mode, because my digital camera has a USB plug in to the computer and my video camera doesn't---and then my battery ran out and i'll explain the significance to that in a sec. Also, the video was too dark, so i downloaded a free video editor called EnhanceMovie, thus the logo flashing in and out. So i apologize for that as well; i'm not trying to give them an advertising space, although i thank them for brightening up my video.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/th_4af873c6.jpg) (http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/?action=view¤t=4af873c6.flv)
So what is happening is that when first started and on high idle at 1200rpm, the vac gauge is steady enough to be "normal." If it drops below that then the vac gauge starts acting haywire. Now, what happened was my batteries on the camera had run out. So what eventually happens is as the choke opens all the way and it comes off highstep, it will go down to 800, 700, 600, getting very more unsmooth as the rpms go down and then it will stall out. While it goes to 700, 600 rpm the needle goes even more wild with the swinging from the 9o'clock position to about the 3o'clock position. i think the video actually sounds better than the actual situation---it's much rougher sounding--like a funnycar at the starting line. Also when the engine revs up, it's not doing it on it's own. That's me bringing the rpm's up and/or keeping the engine from stalling out. i think the soonest i will be able to make another video is tomorrow or wed.
i will solve this problem. The question is when.
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Sounds like you crossed #5 and #7 wires.
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Do you think maybe i'm getting crossfire? i'll check the wiring order again, but seeing how i checked it twice when i put in new plugs a few months ago and it ran just great until one day a month ago. And then, after that i rechecked the order. These are Bosch wires, so maybe they are too efficient or something?
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I used Bosch wires before and they were garbage.( the set I got anyway) :(
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Really off the wall
But have you checked the line for the vacuum gage esp were it goes thru the firewall?
How bout the timing ? and the timing chain to be sure it didnt slip a tooth (if the chain and gear our original it will have nylon on the cam gear)
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Chapter 3:
The neurosis continues.........
What i would like to discuss now, after checking the ignition, is the idle mixture screws; Let's say, after viewing the video and ASSuming it IS NOT a valvetrain related problem---we are also ASSuming it is a carb problem. If, after refering to the video and assuming(only assuming)the above, would you assume it is a question/problem of leaness or richness?
1)Basically, i am trying to determine whether to turn the screws inwards or outwards depending on whether we are running rich or lean at idle.
2)Additional Note: i am not assuming that the carb is ultimately the problem, it's just that right now after eliminating some of the other stuff, i would like to try one last thing with the carb. So, for the purposes of the question, the carb IS the problem----for right now.
Chapter 3, pt.2:
New strategy
Recently Completed:
1)plugged all possible vacuum ports (at least all that i could see)on the carb with vacuum caps and then either capped or taped off all vaccum lines that are now detatched----this includes the line going to the brake booster. Result----no real change except the engine now can idle at 600-700 rpm with out stalling out---somewhat.
Planned:
2) test all plug wires using the KD 2756 tool.
a)visually inspect all spark plugs.
Would oil on the plug wires ruin them? Because there is quite a bit of oil on wires #5,7, and i think 3.
3) if no improvement, then experiment with the idle mixture screws on carb.
4) if no improvment, then do the pouring the stuff into the carb while on high-idle in order to get the valves unstuck; i mean there must be a good reason why mechanics used to/still do this?
a) what should i use?
5) if no improvement, then compression check.
a) if there is a compression disparity, try to determine if it is the valves or rings. (which i have my doubts)
b) if nessesary, take off valve covers and turn engine over to visually see if the valves are making full travel and/or if the rockers are not tight enough.
c) how else to determine if the timing chain has slipped without taking the cover off? Everything including the fan and shroud would have to be removed in order to take the cover off.
6) if it is determined that something in the valvetrain is causing the problem, then i will swap to the 305 that is sitting dormant in my garage and be done with the problem; This i know runs good.
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Chapter 3:
The neurosis continues.........
2) test all plug wires using the KD 2756 tool.
a)visually inspect all spark plugs.
Would oil on the plug wires ruin them? Because there is quite a bit of oil on wires #5,7, and i think 3.
I made a comment about Bosch wires.
The reson for the comment was that the leaked oil MELTED the rubber boot material.
Fix your oil leaks and get some new wires would be a good place to go now.
As for setting your idle, don't assume anything.
There is a proper PROCEDURE for this. You don't try to make it leaner or richer, you set it up.
I'm sure you can find it in a book or online.
Pugsy
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So, you're saying in your case the oil melted your wires?
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Get a good set of plug wires, and while you are replacing them do a compression check on every cylinder. It's an easy step that will tell you at the very least if you have bad compression in a cylinder. I'm no expert, but I think this could point to stuck or mis-timed valves??? I always heard that if a cylinder was "off" from the rest, put some oil in through the affected plug-hole and crank again. If the compression comes up the rings are shot, if not then you have a valve problem. If all values are good, then look at something else because the basic motor is good. Someone with more smarts than me will know for sure.
Good luck, and congrats on completing the carb re-build.
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So, you're saying in your case the oil melted your wires?
I could crumble the boot rubber with my fingers.
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My truck was doing a very similar thing and it turned out to be the cam shaft lobes were almost round and not opening the valves. I would remove the valve covers and run it to see if all the valves are going up and down at the same rate. Good Luck
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My truck was doing a very similar thing and it turned out to be the cam shaft lobes were almost round and not opening the valves. I would remove the valve covers and run it to see if all the valves are going up and down at the same rate. Good Luck
Ding ding ding we have a possible winner. Sorry Stewert I just found your thread or I would have giving you help earlier. The vacuum gauge is telling you what is up, if the gauge jumps as you describe then it is in the valve train. You have a flat cam, bent valve or a broken valve spring, pull the valve covers and look for the unusual in the springs. Have someone crank the engine over while you watch the rockers to see if anything looks wrong. There is a possibility that a piece of carbon is causing a valve to hang open. Once you go through the above and if you don't find anything do a compression test, it is not the distributor or the carb.
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i was afraid of that. And i will get into it whole-hog as i return to full time at work.
Did you see my video on the previous page?
One thing i don't understand is if it is the cam or valve guide(s), how could they wear out so fast? The truck was running just fine and then one day this started happening.
i think i'm going to try the sea-foam thing and then if that does not solve it, i'll pull the covers and do compression etc.
Could a head gasket be causing this?
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i was afraid of that. And i will get into it whole-hog as i return to full time at work.
Did you see my video on the previous page?
One thing i don't understand is if it is the cam or valve guide(s), how could they wear out so fast? The truck was running just fine and then one day this started happening.
i think i'm going to try the sea-foam thing and then if that does not solve it, i'll pull the covers and do compression etc.
Could a head gasket be causing this?
Stewart
If oil was not getting to one lobe it will wear down very quickly..
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Your right to think that a cam going flat would happen slowly but it will not have the miss until the valve stops coming off the valve seat, which would seem like a sudden occurance. I doubt it is valve guides, it is going to be a flat cam, broken valve spring, bent valve, bent pushrod, or a piece of carbon on the valve seat causing the valve to not seat.
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(unfavorable) UPDATE:
Let's just say that, if oil (not alot) and water (not vapor) is coming out of the tailpipes and the oil/choke light is coming on despite that fact that i checked the oil level and it was ok. Also, the engine is running even rougher than before.
If, theoretically, the above things are happening, what do you think the problem might be?
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Moisture collects in the exhaust system and is blown out by the exhaust pressure, causing water to dribble out of the tailpipe. No biggie there. Are you sure that it is oil that is coming out of the tailpipe and not just water that picked up some carbon? Does you truck smoke badly (bluish smoke) when you fire it up initially and at every takeoff? How's your oil pressure? The oil pressure switch for the choke could just be defective (there should be continuity when the engine is running). Does the choke open (all the way?); and how long does it take? If your choke isn't opening properly, you would have an engine that runs overly rich, very poorly, and fouls plugs. Pull your plugs and tell us how they look.
Why are there so many spaces in front of the text in your last post?
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i'll get to the plugs soon hopefully, but one thing no-one has mentioned is the head gasket; Could a blown gasket be causing all of this?
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Stewart, Actually, Back on Pg. 3 SgtDel mentioned it & a compression check. This is what you need to do & go from there. We have too many things up in the air here...we were talking fuel pressure & flooding, then ignition, pulling the engine & now "building a truck with a mid-mount engine". At this point you need to go to the beginning. You need to verify the basic "health" of the engine, not the accessories (carb, distributor, egr valve, ect. ect.) The compression test will tell you if each cylinder has the necessary things happening in it to work properly (ring seal, intake valve opening & sealing, exhaust valve opening & sealing & that all of this is happening at the right time). If you check all cylinders & you have proper, consistant numbers, now you KNOW you have a sound base. If not, you will quickly know which cylinder is your problem & organize a plan from there, at this point you may pull an engine because of a carb or ignition problem...or are you going to buy a distributor that you don't need? Good Luck with it & keep us posted, Lorne
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Let's just say that, water (not vapor) is coming out of the tailpipes.
It is true that condensation will form in the exhaust system the water drops that you see coming from the tail pipe while the engine is running is the result of efficient combustion. No cause for concern most all cars and trucks will shed water.
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i agree; we should go to the basics and get a baseline.
i have just been very busy at work----which is a good thing. And i need to get organized, but we WILL get to the bottom of this.
The simplex/can-am project is totally separate from "brownie," my current truck/problem. And the current problem will be/must be addressed and taken care of first before i delve into the mid-engined thing because i have no space for it---not just physically garage wise, but mentally, spiritually, stomachly etc.
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I second the compressor (or leak down) test to see what the basic health of the engine. Any valvetrain issues will crop up in a compression test. Water at start up is condensation unless it goes on for an extended period of time. Blueish smoke on fire up that clears up is going to be valve stem seals leaking, now if it smokes for the whole time it runs....... :'(
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....the saga continues......
OK, i finally had time to get the engine out of the chassis. It took so long because, perplexingly, things at my job (i'm in retail) have picked up since feb. and i went back full time. At my other job, one of my co-workers got caught selling pot to an undercover on school grounds. This meant i had to fill in an extra shift which meant, literally 24/7 on duty for a few days and i slept alot of that time and my employer understood because they couldn't find anyone else on short notice. i am not sure if all states have the law that if you sell within 1000ft of a school, this means more penalties. But my state has that law. i guess people are getting desperate. i really don't know how he is going to get out of this one.
WE are going to get to the bottom of this problem if it is the last thing i do.
Things are a little exciting now for all of us because:
1)You know how in the movies where the hero(s) are just minding their business and some other person(me) comes along and....., well for example in "Star Trek, The Final Frontier" some other guy---Sybok sort of tricks/traps the crew of the enterprise into helping him. i am Sybok, you are the crew of the Enterprise. Sort of.
NOTE: And i want to emphasize this. i think star trek is cool, but i am not a fan of star trek, nor do i follow it; i just could not think of a more appropriate example.
2) This is sort of going to be like a live 73-87 rehab project in real time. You basically tell me what to do, i and do it. That's pretty exciting and does not really happen that much on webforums. It's sort of like someone gets trapped on a island or is in outer space and they get hurt and they have to do surgery on themselves and the doctor gives them instructions over the phone. It's wild.
So, are you with me? All i ask is that if a ask a question(and you'll be getting a lot of dumb ones) that if you could please go into great detail about the subject matter; One word/sentence answers are generally not going to cut it (hint, hint Mr. Zambonie ;D); i'm generally looking for a paragraph in most cases. If i knew the answer to the question, i wouldn't have asked it. My technical knowledge is not that good. Thanks.
So the first thing is, and by the way the engine is on a test stand, the first things is/are i want to put full gauges on this engine:
What is this? What does it do?
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/fda7e845.jpg)
What is this? What does it do?
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/12a736ba.jpg)
i'm guessing something to do with oil.
What is this? What does it do?
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/9a25c266.jpg)
This was one the driver's side.
It would seem that we have both water and oil monitored, but alas there is yet another sensor located just above the oil filter; What is this? What does it do?
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/33e1a515.jpg)
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A- I believe this is a knock sensor that montitors detanation and retards or advances the timing accordingly. I think it is used on the Electronic Spark Control (ESC) systems
B= Oil pressure sending unit used to send ground reference to oil pressure gaugein dash. This unit is designed to go with a particular gauge. If it is changed out with a sending unit that had a different operating range, then the gauge will be inaccurate.
C= Water temperature sending unit used to send ground reference to water temperature gauge in dash. As with the oil pressure sending unit, if it is replaced with a sending unit that has a different operating range, the gauge will be inaccurate.
D= Appears to be an oil pressure switch. It is only for the oil pressure. I am not sure what this one is used for, it could have several uses, but I believe it may be the one that controls the power to the electric choke. I believe it is a normally open switch (no continuity between contacts) and when oil pressure builds, it send power to the choke coil to heat it up, causing the choke to open. I am not going to swear to that tho.
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A) is a knock sensor. When the engine starts pinging from preignition, the computer picks it up via this sensor and retards the timing saving you extensive engine damage.
B) is the oil pressure sender for the guage or light.
C) is the sensor for the TEMP light/guage
D) I forgot this...something to do with oil for sure....
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The fourth pic is an oil pressure switch and is used for the choke as choptop said earlier. Although that is an odd location for it. Mine is located on a tee at the same location as oil pressure sender in the second pic.
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OK, cool;
A) that's what i kind of figured. i can leave this unplugged as i no longer use the ESC distributor.
b) i only have a light. Let's say i want to add a gauge and keep the light, which, actually, is what i actually want to do. Do you have some pointers as far as "T" fittings go?
c) i only have a light. Let's say i want to add a gauge and keep the light, which, actually, is what i actually want to do. Do you have some pointers as far as "t" fittings go? Also, just out of curiousity i know there are other places to get temp readings from. Why did the factory pick the head?
d) Yeah, i think you all are right because the wire for the choke, i think branches off from these wires that go into sensor d.
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You can tee the oil pressure gauge, I prefer to do this at the one by the oil filter because its easier to get to, just use some good steel fittings, not the cast, black iron ones. As far as the temp, if you are removing the vacuum thermistor in the intake, I would put it there. Ther really isnt a good way to tee it in the head without having an odd looking contraption hanging out the side of the bolck that could break off due to vibration. I usually plug the oil passage at the back of the block when I have to change the sender or have the engine out because its such a pain to get to and I have had issues with them leaking.(bad sender) I dont know if this is a mistake or not, but I have never had any issues. I just hate oil leaks and this eleviates one of the hardest ones to fix.
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nEXT question:
Let's say i want to mount a 2 1/16" gauge----yes the engine is on a test stand and i am making up a console for the instruments and switches.
What actual size has to be drilled to fit the 2 1/16" gauge?
b) 2 5/16" gauge?
Also everyone relax----i am going to do the compression etc. i just want to get everything set up right because you should run the engine first before checking compression right?
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I can tell you from experience that making the hole for the gauge is a pain. You can take the gauge with you to the store and try to get a holesaw that is close. I think I use a 2-1/8 holesaw, but you have make sure it doesnt wallow or the hole will be too big. I built alot of panels with gauges, and I have one hole saw that I have used for years, so I grab it without looking at the size. You can use a 2 inch hole saw and let it walk a little, then rasp the hole out bigger if needed.
The test stand idea is cool. I have everything to make one, just havent had the time to get my welder fixed, or build it once I did.
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i think i'm going to bring the bezel(gauges were originally purchased as a set from sumitt, but now i'm going to mount them individually in a blank panel) to the store and try to find a holesaw that will match it.
i guess what i'm trying to ask is, when a manufacturer says, for example, 2 1/16" do they mean the cylinder of the gauge itself, the flange, or the gauge face?
i got my ruler out, and things aren't making sense to me.
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i guess what i'm trying to ask is, when a manufacturer says, for example, 2 1/16" do they mean the cylinder of the gauge itself, the flange, or the gauge face?
i got my ruler out, and things aren't making sense to me.
Stewart, I think only you (or someone holding a tape measure, caliper, ect.) that is where your gauges are can accurately answer that question. The size of the lip on the bezel dictates how sloppy you can be, however your goal is a snug fit. I have found the bigger holesaws (say 1 1/4" & up) will "gain" about a 1/16" in the wobble, so a 2" should make a nice tight fit on a 2 1/16" gauge & a 2 1/4" should do well for a 2 5/16" gauge. Good Luck!
Only you could come up with Star Trek as an example in a post about gauges on a pickup truck forum ;) Lorne
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The thing I remember about Star Trek: Never be part of the "Away Team", they always got killed.
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OK, gauges are basically done as far as mounting.
To finish up:
1) should thread sealant be used on the coolant temp and oil pressure senders? If so, what's a good brand?
2) Any specific suggestions or pictures of "T" fitting solutions that you've done would be cool. i would like to have an actual gauge AND keep the warning light.
Next question:
How do i go about wiring this:
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/3c466b40.jpg)
to this?
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/22de97c1.jpg)
i know the large cable from the positive terminal on the battery goes to "e", but other than that, i'm not sure.
a) also what size wiring to use and should i use fuses or links?
b) which wire would go to the HEI cap?
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Let me see if I can help.
Terminal A on the ignition switch is what is says. Battery positive from the switch to the battery. Id use a 15 amp switch here, maybe a 20. I dint think it would require more. I use the switches all the time. In fact I have about 6 in stock now.
Terminal b is accessories like radios and such. Not needed for the test stand
Terminal c is the ignition. Connect the power for you gauges, gauge lights and ignition to coil in distributer here.
The mystery terminal d is the starter output. It should go the s on the starter, or what you have as g.
The e terminal on the starter is the main battery cable. you knew that one.
R on the starter is what where I am a little unsure. I think it is hot only when cranking and send power to the alternator to excite the feilds in order to make it charge.
I would use #10 wire to the switch with the 15 or 20 amp fuse. Its easier to replace than a fusible link. Id us #14 for the starter and for the ignition to the distributer. #16 will be fine for the gauges and gauge lights if applicable.
That is the way I usually wire the systems I build, but I also have a large assortment of wire and connectors, fuses etc. You may be able to get away with #14 all the way.
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OK, before we go any further, it might be best to do an update on some recent findings:
i went to try and find TDC#1 so could i re-install the distributor. In order to do this, i took off both valve covers to see when #6 rockers were moving while #1's rockers weren't and vice versa in relation to when the mark on the harm balancer moved under the 0 setting on the timing tab. i also took all the plugs out to make turning the engine easier and i'll show you the plugs in a sec because i think that may be important also.
What i found was #4's exhaust rocker was loose and not "square" on the "valve stem" as illustrated in the picture. If you pretend that the following picture is a road map, then i could move the pushrod N S E W and really any direction in the 360degree compass, but i could not move it towards or away from myself (up and down) (note: i am putting some words around quotes because i do not know the correct terms to use at this point.)
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/59f7665b-1.jpg)
Later, i decided to tighten/adjust this rocker(rotating the crank clockwise about 45 degrees from #1's TDC---#7's rockers moving, #4's rockers not moving etc.) As you probably know, you need to roll the pushrod in between your fingers while tightening down the nut. i immediately knew something was wrong at this point. Voila----we have a bent pushrod.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/3a08fb5a.jpg)
So.......do you think this could be the cause of all the problems?
The other thing to add, i don't know if this has anything to do with it, is the condition of the spark plugs:
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/ce625302-1.jpg)
Plugs 2,4,6,8,7 were similar.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/0d14a390-1.jpg)
Plug 5 was similar, with a little bit of oil but with no crud.
Plugs are RS 45's (will check exactly soon) and basically all carbon blackened.
P.S. All 15 of the rockers seemed to have normal travel and none of the valves appeared to be "sticking."
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Bent pushrods definately cause trouble. I replied to your other post. The plugs being black is running rich, and oil deposits possibly from worn valve guides and/or piston rings. The plugs on all of my trucks run a tanish color.
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Is there a reason why the EGR valve is removed?
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That's just one of the things Stewart was checking previous to his latest discovery.
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That's just one of the things Stewart was checking previous to his latest discovery.
Thanks for the update
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1)The other reason why the EGR is removed is because i can't get the valve cover off without taking the egr off too.
2) i guess the next obvious questions are, what caused the bent pushrod(i have my theories, but i want to hear the common reasons why first) and where to get a pushrod---from what i've seen, jeg's only sells them in pairs of 16.
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I posted my $.02 on your bent pushrod thread
your local auto parts store should be able to get a single pushrod for you
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Do all SBC pretty much take the same pushrods more or less? Are they interchangeable with 305's etc.?
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Yes, Stock, pre Vortec SBC's take the same pushrods...you can steal one out of many.
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Pushrod installed and rocker adjusted. Hopefully this time properly.
Muffler installed----thanks for all the help.
Next question: What size heater hose do these trucks take?
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Pushrod installed and rocker adjusted. Hopefully this time properly.
Muffler installed----thanks for all the help.
Next question: What size heater hose do these trucks take?
5/8" and 3/4".
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2 separate sizes?
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I think it depends on truck. 1/2 ton is 5/8 i believe
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Yes, Pugsy is correct, the heater core has Two different size nipples 5/8" & 3/4" Lorne
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You can tell how long its been since I replace heater hoses on my trucks,lol
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OK, perhaps i need to back up the train and be more specific:
This is for the test stand and thus i have no heater core. We can see that there is a water outlet(fig.e) on the intake manifold here:
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/6544381e.jpg)
And on the radiator there is an opening(which i've previously plugged, but could unplug if nessesary) here (fig.f)
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/6354eb01.jpg)
What do you suggest i should do? Since the outlet "e" is already in the block, i would rather just leave it; Is there a way i could run a short length of hose and plug the hose somehow?
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I wont run heater hoses on my test stand. You can just take a short peice of hose, and plug the end with a larger bolt and hose clamp, or get a hose nipple and cap from the local harware store and put it in the end of a short hose and use that as a plug for the one in the intake.
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You have another outlet on the water pump.
Just loop a piece of 3/4" hose to the 2 outlets.
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That's true.........Duh!
Thanks again.
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Why not just plug the manifold too?
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Well because i figure it's already in there and not leaking and therefore i don't want to take it out and have to put it back in and possibly it might start to leak. i'm like that; i'm the type that likes to pretty much leave things as they are for fear that i might not get it back the way it was even if further adjustment could yield greater benefits.
It's sort of like how alot of people are nervous about taking out distributors. i have since, out of nessesity, gotten over that task however.
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Should you have to remove any pipe thread fittings, this (http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/thread_compounds/a_thread_sealants/auto_Permatex_High_Performance_Thread_Sealant.htm) applied to good clean threads is all you need to ensure a good seal.
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All hoses done.
If we could revert back to wiring, what about ground?
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Bolt your battery negative cable to the block. ANy good clean place should work. I usually bolt it to the back of the head on the starter side
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System grounded.
Next question, when we want to fill the bowl of the carb before starting, where should we do this at? J, K, or some other place?
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/100_0426.jpg)
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j
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Neither. Crank the engine over and let the bowl fill itself.
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Yeah, your cam should have oil. You usually only have to fill the bowl when you start a rebuild.
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So, there's no benefit to manually filling the bowl on a broken in/run engine?
What about pre-lubing?
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There is a risk of over filling it and flooding your engine. A delayed startup won't hurt anything if the cam is already broken in. The only reason you want a fast startup with a fresh cam is to get the engine running and oil flowing before the cam lube is completely wiped off.
Oil pre-lubing the engine is an excellent idea as it cuts cold (dry) startup wear.
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NOTE: i would ask that everyone stop smiling because i may be somewhat screwed at this point.
NEXT roadblock:
What happened was i did start the engine and it ran for a few secs. A little rough, but i thought the timing might have been retarded. i didn't further continue because the battery was getting run down, plus i had to go to work.
When i got back from work, i continued to fill the radiator---i'm assuming that the engine took some water in when it turned and the level in the radiator went down. No big deal? By the way, how much water does the system take? i already filled it with 4 prestone sized jugs before the engine ran. My reason for asking may become seriously apparent in a sec:
i continued filling with 2 1/2 more jugs and then water started coming out in a stream out of the dipstick! Apparently there is a hole(???????) in the dipstick tube and that's where the water was/is coming out from. These aren't the best pictures, but you get the idea?
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/100_0527.jpg)
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/100_0524.jpg)
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/100_0525.jpg)
Also, i noticed that the screw on the starter where the brace would go (my engine does not have this, but some do) is rusted indicating that this condition may have been happening for a while.
So, bascially, am i screwed at this point? The engine was hard to start earlier today.
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Wow, something is seriously wrong here. The only way I can see you getting water out of the dipstick tube, is water is getting into the crankcase. 4 gallons of coolant doesnt sound bad, but 6 1/2 doesnt sound right at all. Check all your coolant lines and make sure a vacuum port didnt get connected to the coolant side. May be a head gasket, intake leak ??? I am definately not laughing at you, and I figure that goes for alot of the other guys here. We're here to help, not poke fun at. Hang in there.
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No i didn't think anyone was laughing at me (although i wouldn't blame anyone for it considering my situation); i just thought that everyone here was in a good mood and here i am with a derelict motor........actually nevermind.
The only other thing i can add is when i initially put together the test stand and initially filled the radiator, i think last week, it only took the 4 jugs and the level stayed at the filler neck where the cap goes on. It was only after the motor ran and then a few hours later i noticed the level in the radiator had went down and only after i added 2 1/2 more jugs is when the leaking started.
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Gotcha, I feel for ya. I actually wish you were closer so I could come help with this demon possessed engine,lol.
Definately an interesting engine. I am wondering if there is a cracked head involved here. Does it have the stock intake or aluminum. One thing that comes to mind is the bent pushrod. It would have to be perfect timing on all the systems, but if that cylinder with the bent pushrod filled up with water, then it would bent the pushrod by hydraulically locking the cylinder, thus pushing back on the valve. Unlikely, but possible.
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Stock iron intake.
At this point i think the hydrolock theory is plausible.
I'm not completely screwed at this point; i do have a 305 laying dormant in the garage. And i know that one runs ok. At this point, in the interest of time, i might swap everything over and run this engine as i need the truck for backup transportation. And then go thru a complete tear down, inspection and rebuild of this "possessed" 350.
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Hate to say it Stewart, but if my engine had water pouring out of the dipstick, I'd be pulling it and tearing it down. Could be as minor as a failed intake gasket, could be as serious as a cracked block. Sorry to hear this, but at least you have that 305.
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eventhorizon66 is right.You already have it out, tear it down and see whats goin on. My vote is heads or head gaskets. Hopefully not block
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Sorry Stewart but when I saw the water fountain coming out the dipstick tube I started laughing. Never seen that one before.
Look at the bright side.
No better way to learn about engines than to tear it all apart.
First thing to do is read a book about engine rebuilding.
Second thing is to read it again.
Third thing is to buy another book and read that.
Great learning opportunity here.
Sorry about the bad luck.
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So, is there actually supposed to be a hole in the dipstick just for this purpose, or if the oil pressure gets too high?
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I don't think there's supposed to be a hole in the dipstick tube but I could be wrong. This happened to me a couple of decades ago. When I put the heads back on I somehow put a shorter headbolt in one of the boltholes(must've switched with another one) and antifreeze ended up in the oil pan. I think that one bolthole had a water jacket running through it(if that's possible). I hope you find your "gremlin". Good luck!
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Stewart, You didn't have water running out there before you took the engine out? Maybe that "hook" part is rotated & that was spotwelded on as a support, now it's broken...taking a little spot of tube with it? By the looks of that bracket (the oily silt on it) I think the hole has been there a little while. Doesn't explain the water...but may explain the hole. That would take allot of water to FILL the engine to make water shoot out that high up the dipstick tube. This is one odd deal. Good Luck with that one! Lorne
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i would of thought the oil would of been coming out first since the water would sink to the bottom. hope fully its just a gasket problem gl with it
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Chapter 5: Houston, we have a problem:
Be happy you are not me.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/100_0537.jpg)
Broken exhaust valve cyl #4----the one with the bent pushrod.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/100_0542.jpg)
This part of the valve was actually "stuck" to the head when i took it off the engine. So, not only is the piston possibly trashed (as you'll see in a sec), the head may be also.
#4 piston:
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/100_0546.jpg)
Cyls 2 and 6 were full of oil and probably water---a mixture of the two.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/100_0543.jpg)
i will take off the left side head tomorrow. The intake seemed to be ok, with no obvious cracks or damage.
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Clean off the pistons, remove any burs off of the one piston, rebuild the heads, slap it together and rock and roll.
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Check the cylinder wall too. I have seen Caterpillar 3126s drop a valve and the results are never pretty. the water has to be getting into the base somehow.
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Stewart,
Being a rookie at this like yourself, my only advice is to drop the 305 in to get yourself up and running, and then completely tear that engine down, flux the block, and do a complete rebuild. IMO, you could spend a lot longer (and more $$$$) chasing small gremlins than to just tear it apart and start fresh.
Better yet, how much does a crate motor go for these days? You could always try to sell the 305 and the broken 350 to an adventurous soul and put the money toward a new motor. Just a thought.
Good luck with it.
Smitty
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1) When you say slap it together and rock and roll etc., that would be ideal. But i'm really concerned about:
a) what caused all that water to get into the pan?
b) what caused the valve to break; i never rev the engine past 3000 (except once last summer to see the 1/4 mile time). This is strictly a transportation motor. i've never had a valve break on any engine ever.
c) What is causing a significant amt of oil/water to get into the combustion chambers of # 2 and 6? Need new rings?
d) To clean the pistons, could i do it with them in the engine, or would i have to take them out?
The quick top end rebuild strategy sounds interesting, please explain more.
1.5) Based on my limited diagnostic skills, the cylinder wallls seem ok. There is a bit of a ridge on the top of most of the cyls, but that's normal?
2)RE: 305
i know there are alot of 305 haters out there, but in the interest of time and the urgent need for backup transportation i think this is the route i may go. i know the 305 runs ok with no "funky" issues like the "exorcist" 350. In fact, this 305 was actually installed in the truck and ran for one day 2 summers ago----another long and sad story, although it ended with favorable results.
3) The crates are running about 1400-1500 at jegs so with shipping we are looking at 1600-1700ish. i'm thinking with the economy bad, we might be able to get it a few hundered off at the dealer. And this is a viable alternative. However:
a) i already have the 305, so this would save the 1700. i'm not trying to go fast---i'm just trying to go.
b) i want to learn more, so the 350 WILL get disasembled, inspected, analyized, and hopefully rebuilt and put back into the truck as the 305 was originally purchased for a twin turbo project. Yes, i can't figure this basic stuff out and i was thinking about twin turbos!
P.S.---another movie analogy; This is the part of the movie where Linda Blair's parents decide she's in really screwed up and call in the priest (me). Incidentally, the girl originally scheduled to star in the exorcist was not picked because she was on Star Trek.
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My guesstimate is that the coolant leak happened first and then the rings and valve guides got trashed due to lack of lubrication. Probably have a few bearings that aren't so happy too. I'd say do it right and go for a full rebuild on this one. That is, if you still want it. If the 305 is running good and all you need is basic transportation, you might just see if a rebuilder wants to buy this as a rebuildable core, drop in the 305, and forget about this little nightmare. You won't get anything if you try to sell the 305.
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If you want I got a set of 350 heads that dont look too bad if you need a head (I would do both though not just one side)
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1) Yes, i 'm with you about coolant leaking; i'm almost positive (despite my poor diagnoising ability) that all this has something to do with the engine being overheated before i bought the truck.
a) Yes, i still want it; i've become psychologically attached to it----after all we've been thru.
2)Thanks for the offer; i will inspect the heads---hopefully the right side is just warped and will need to be "sanded down" (i don't know the correct term---resurfaced?)
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(i don't know the correct term---resurfaced?)
resurfacing, milling, decking - take your pick, any machine shop will know what you are talking about.
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So anyways, next question, in taking off and getting ready to install the exhaust manifolds on to the next engine, when being removed from the exhaust pipes, the stud broke off in the manifold:
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/100_0548.jpg)
How, exactly, to remove this stud? Also, please note that i really don't think we can get a drill to the top of the stud---we probably have to go from the bottom.
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http://moodle.student.cnwl.ac.uk/moodledata_shared/CDX%20eTextbook/dswmedia/toolsEquip/hpt/nonpow/scrwextract.html
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Alright, thanks.
It turned out that i got the machine shop to do it(Autofab===Coleman Bros. successor). When you add up the time, effort, and the fact that i have no torches, ez-out bits, and no experience, this was actually the most cost-effective way. i hope to eventually be able to perform this task.
1) Ok back to this sensor thing near the oil filter:
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/33e1a515.jpg)
Is this ONLY used for the choke? If so, if i'm not going to be using it, i should just take out the choke fuse on the fuse box?
2) This timing tab thing:
http://www.jegs.com/i/Moroso/710/26100/10002/-1
a) Has anyone used it?
b) Will this be able to be installed on stockish chevy intake manifolds, i.e., 2G (yes, i know--i have my reasons---it has to do with practicality, i will explain later) quadrajet, without too much or any modifications. If no, then what type of modifications are required? Is drilling required?
c) The thing is on the 305 as well, i don't see how you can time the thing in stock form---the bloody timing tab is blocked. This time by the water pump!
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(1) You should keep the oil pressure switch if you are going to continue running a carb with a choke. Otherwise, simply switching the ignition to the hot position will open your choke, regardless of the engine running or not. This could make the engine very hard to start and keep running on a cold morning, should you forget and leave the key in the hot postion for more than a few seconds.
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The thing is, the 2G which i'm planning on using(came with the 305) does not have an electric choke. It has some other thing. And yes, i know the quadrajet is almost undoubtedly better for my needs, but i have my reasons which i'll get into soon.
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Alright, i kind of goofed----i didn't take enough pictures(because i thought i'd remember) and the pictures that i drew now make no sense to me:
So i need a "bailout" from you guys: (Aren't you just getting sick of that word?)
i'm not sure how the, what i believe to be the, powersteering bracket goes back on:
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/100_0550.jpg)
Should it go flush against the exhaust manifold, or should it rest against the first nut?
Actually, if you could post a picture/or explain how all 4(or 5?) brackets go back together, that would probably be best.
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You have it on there correctly in the pic.
http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?topic=7205.msg41877#msg41877
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OK thanks; That's lifesaving there.
You will be rewarded in some way (even if only in karma).
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We're really almost getting there:
OK, next dum questions(how was i even able to get all this taken apart?):
1) What sizes are the converter to flexplate bolts?
2) Transmission crossmember bolts?
3) Transmission mount bolt (the one in the middle)?
NOTE: i have all of the actual bolts, i just apparently don't know the size of these bolts and apparently don't have the right socket and or wrench sizes for them----yet i was able to take it all apart weeks earlier. Stange, i know.
Also, we may want to start a post in the tech section that lists all the commonly used bolt sizes for Small blocks and trucks.
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1) As far as the torque converter to flexplate AND the single, rear trans mount bolt, the best i could come up with was 15mm; The socket didn't slip, so i suppose it's good enough?
The trans crossmember bolts were snug enough for now.
2) We may need to backtrack concerning the accessory mounting; i may need a step-by-step description in regards to re-assembly:
We've established that the curved "J" shaped bracket goes against the exhaust manifold as illustrated in the below picture----against the nut:
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/100_0550-1.jpg)
HOWEVER, what goes on immediately after this bracket?
We know that this "wishbone" bracket goes on next:
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/sencraig/wishbone.jpg)
But, does it go on flush against the "j" bracket or are there washers that need to go on first?
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Yes, the "wishbone" bracket installs directly against the J-bracket. Basically bolt the exhaust manifold up, install the J-bracket on the stud, then the "wishbone" bracket, then the nut.
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OK, cool---thanks again; We should maybe make this a thread in the tech section ;D?
So, just to make totally sure, we can see that in my case i have a washer on the first stud. The "j" bracket goes on as is AND THEN the "wishbone" bracket goes on directly next to it and then the washer would go on next then the bolt?
The second stud doesn't seem to have any washers to it, but i'll double check.
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So, just to make totally sure, we can see that in my case i have a washer on the first stud. The "j" bracket goes on as is AND THEN the "wishbone" bracket goes on directly next to it and then the washer would go on next then the bolt?
Correct
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OK, cool.
Next question:
What do you feel these brackets should generally be torqued to?
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Good and tight with a 12" ratchet. I also apply a little copper anti-seize to nice clean threads. If I had to guess, I'd say 25-30 ft-lbs.
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OK, 25-30lbs sounds right; The service manual makes no mention of acc. brackets whatsoever. (????)