73-87chevytrucks.com
73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Engine/Drivetrain => Topic started by: grinder1989 on December 16, 2008, 10:52:42 pm
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I just had a new 350 built for my truck. The valve springs can handle .450 inches of lift. I was told to go with a 220 duration cam with not too much more than .450 lift. I'd like to get that choppy idle sound but I don't want to sacrifice low end power. Any suggestions?
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More details on the application. What's it going in, transmission, tire size, exhaust, intake, intended useage?
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if your just looking for the "choppy sound", get one of those crane thumper cams. You pretty much get the sound without having to run a big stall and stuff. Here's a link for you to hear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT9gor9gP7o&feature=related
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More details on the application. What's it going in, transmission, tire size, exhaust, intake, intended useage?
1974 chevy c10, turbo 350, tire size will change but they're a goofy size. its like 30 by something....I have to go check the side wall. They're good sized tires. 30 something x 10 by 15 Headers, Wieand Single plane manifold...I just want a nice running street truck that will take a visit to the drag strip.
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Why did you chose a single plane intake manifold?
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$45 ;D That's why haha. I'm going to end up running it.
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You can modify a single plane with a divider to improve booster signal. But it won't have the same low end response as a 180* dual plane.
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That's ok, I can always change the intake, but it's all I have right now and money is tight. I have $200 for a cam and lifters and that's it.
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Well regardless of the size you pick, Summit offers cam/lifter kits for about $90. And I'll bet Vile's gonna recommend a cam from them too, as he often does.
So that leaves enough money to sell the Weiand and pick up a nice used dual plane on eBay or Craigslist. Of course, this is assuming that you won't need the rest of that money to replace valvesprings, seals, etc.
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Here is a nice summit one
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=SUM%2D226014&view=1&N=700+150
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Well regardless of the size you pick, Summit offers cam/lifter kits for about $90. And I'll bet Vile's gonna recommend a cam from them too, as he often does.
So that leaves enough money to sell the Weiand and pick up a nice used dual plane on eBay or Craigslist. Of course, this is assuming that you won't need the rest of that money to replace valvesprings, seals, etc.
Everything on the engine is new. I haven't had the cam installed yet but it has rebuilt heads. Valves, Valve springs etc...The springs can handle .450 lift so I want a cam that can do around that. I will not run any summit part in my engine. I'd rather spend the extra money for a Comp Cams. I should also point out I'm looking for a hydraulic cam. I'm probably not going to replace that intake but I'll check craigslist.
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I will not run any summit part in my engine.
Intriguing statement since you live so close to Summit Racing. What happened? Did you get some bad parts?
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Well if you are hung up on brand names the ISKY Mega 264 (http://www.iskycams.com/timingchart.php?product_number=201264&timing_chart_id=93) comes to mind. It won't have a choppy idle, though. And I wouldn't run it with less than 8.5:1 CR (9:1 would be better). But my advice is based on my comprehension of David Vizard books and magazine articles, not hands on experience, so keep that in mind.
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Summit racing has terrible customer service and I've heard many horror stories of their name brand parts ruining good engines. I would much rather stick with a name I trust. The engine should have a 10 to 1 compression ratio. I'm looking for the lopey idle, but I don't want it to the point where I'll loose a lot of my low end power.
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Well with 10:1 you could go a bit larger without loosing much low-end. Maybe an Isky Mega 270 or Comp Magnum 270, but these cams have .465" and .470" lift, respectively. Are your lift restrictions based on spring pressure or coil bind?
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Well with 10:1 you could go a bit larger without loosing much low-end. Maybe an Isky Mega 270 or Comp Magnum 270, but these cams have .465" and .470" lift, respectively. Are your lift restrictions based on spring pressure or coil bind?
I have no idea. They're Crane springs. The guy that built the engine said to stay around .450.
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What's your spring part #?
As far as your loyalty to brand name, you'd be surprised.... I've been using summit for about 16 years and any time I've ever had a problem they took pretty good care of me except for one time. I've had many name brand company's let me down. I can honestly say I've never had a summit budget built ever let me down. Their cam and lifter kits are a good deal and basically you can rebuild a 350 for about $400 bucks if you're on a tight budget.
Before you waste $ on brand names, if you're on a tight budget you'd be better off with a summit cam kit and a dual plane intake. You'll regret that manifold.
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I'm working on getting a part number. I've had one too many problems to trust Summit brand products. I guess an intake would be ok but I just simply won't run anything internally. You must have gotten lucky. What is so bad about my manifold? I might get a new one but its not a priority.
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I'm working on getting a part number. I've had one too many problems to trust Summit brand products. I guess an intake would be ok but I just simply won't run anything internally. You must have gotten lucky. What is so bad about my manifold? I might get a new one but its not a priority.
Hopefully I dont screw it up
Single plane is for higher Rpms
Dual Plane is good for street (to around 6000 maybe 6500)
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Ah, I see. Well I don't think it will do all that bad. I'll have the flow at higher RPMS which is great. How bad could it really affect my idle, low end power and all that? I doubt it could be worse than running the stock manifold.
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I doubt it could be worse than running the stock manifold.
Think again. In a single plane manifold the apparent vacuum signal at the booster is weaker at low rpms. Whereas a dual plane splits the carb and the engine (into cylinders which fire 180* apart from each other) and gives the respective booster a stronger signal. A single plane can be made to work well on the street, but you really have to know what you are doing in terms of fuel atomization and booster signal. A stock manifold is king for off-idle response, until it runs out of breath at about 2500 rpms, LOL.
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Ok so I need a dual plane manifold. No biggie. I'll find one. $140 for a new one :(.
Anything on a cam yet?
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I would look for a good used manifold. It should be pretty easy to find a decent performer or performer RPM (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_Car-Truck-Parts-Accessories__Edelbrock-Performer-RPM-Intake-Manifold-Smallblock-Chev_W0QQitemZ200288188361QQadiZ2865QQadnZCarQ20Q26Q20TruckQ20PartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item200288188361&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A543%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318).
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You know, I'm just going to run that single plane. If I don't like it I'll change it. No big deal really. Is 260 duration too much for my small block?
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260 on the seat or 260 @ 0.050"? If it's the latter, then YES.
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CL12-205-2 Comp cams. 206 @ 050 intake 204 @ 050 Exahaust .425 for I and E. Good choice?
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That's a very mild cam. It will have a stock idle. That said, it's always better to under-cam a motor than over-cam it.
According to what I've learned from David Vizard's books. An ideal cam for a typical NA street 350 has a 108 lobe centerline angle, is a single pattern, and has as much lift as you can achieve without excessive overlap. So following these criteria, for an off-the-self cam, that has .450" lift (your previously stated limit), I like the Isky Mega 264, as I posted earlier. If you are hung up on Comp Cams, a similar cam would be the Comp 268H (#12-210-2), though it is on a 110 LCA (probably not optimal). Also DV suggests that most SBC's like the cam installed 4* advanced (Comp often grinds them like this). I would be sure about your CR, because if you are wrong and it has less than 9:1, I'd go one step smaller to the 260H (#12-206-2).
Disclaimer: Once again all this advice is based not on my personal experience, but on my comprehension of this book (http://www.amazon.com/Build-Performance-Blocks-Budget-Design/dp/1884089348/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229572578&sr=8-1) in particular. Pick up a copy, you won't regret it.
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I put a single plain Wiend on a 355 I had in a 4 spd. 80 Camaro once. Don't remember the duration but the lift on the cam was around 450 ish. That thing was a dog until about 4000 RPMs. Even after that it wasn't an animal. I swapped on a dual plain Edelbrock Performer I think it was. It was like adding 100 HP to the motor. Night and day difference. It was a rager from idle to about 6500, after that it was smooth but no huge power.
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Here's an issue
Basic Operating RPM Range: 2,000-5,800
That's for the Isky. The comp I chose has a range of 600-4600.
I feel that if I throw in that isky in combination with the single plane manifold, my truck will be a pig off the line. I think that cam will help my engine run better with the single plane. Keep in mind guys, this engine is not a "performance" engine. I'm going to be building a 350/Turbo 400 combo soon. I might end up doing a 383 stroker. Forged crank, pistons, rods, bad butt heads etc..
Thank you for all your help and information you gave so far though, I appreciate it. :)
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just keep checking Ebay just found my Cam and Lifter kit for 130 with free shipping :)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=250342710028
I did check Summit I did not like any of the numbers and this one is a "name brand"
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I wouldn't build an engine around an intake manifold. Sell your Weiand and get yourself the dual plane and you will be thankful. I had a 400 sbc that the guy put a "Torker 2" intake manifold on because he thought it would have more torque. The thing was a pig and was much better stock. I never understood why they named that intake the torker lol. Anyway I put a dual plane high rise, and this cam click here (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=SUM%2DK1105&autoview=sku) and the guy couldn't believe the difference. As far as getting lucky, I've built so many engines I couldn't even count how many and I've had the worst luck with Edelbrock and comp. Edelbrock I've had 2 cams that when degreed were off more than 8°s! Every single summit cam I've used degreed dead on. If it's just luck I've been one lucky duck.
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just keep checking Ebay just found my Cam and Lifter kit for 130 with free shipping :)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=250342710028
I did check Summit I did not like any of the numbers and this one is a "name brand"
Not so sure I would have bought from that seller, they have some pretty bad feedback..
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just keep checking Ebay just found my Cam and Lifter kit for 130 with free shipping :)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=250342710028
I did check Summit I did not like any of the numbers and this one is a "name brand"
Not so sure I would have bought from that seller, they have some pretty bad feedback..
I only saw one neg feedback for something being dirty if the cam is dirty I wont cry :)
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I wouldn't build an engine around an intake manifold. Sell your Weiand and get yourself the dual plane and you will be thankful. I had a 400 sbc that the guy put a "Torker 2" intake manifold on because he thought it would have more torque. The thing was a pig and was much better stock. I never understood why they named that intake the torker lol. Anyway I put a dual plane high rise, and this cam click here (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=SUM%2DK1105&autoview=sku) and the guy couldn't believe the difference. As far as getting lucky, I've built so many engines I couldn't even count how many and I've had the worst luck with Edelbrock and comp. Edelbrock I've had 2 cams that when degreed were off more than 8°s! Every single summit cam I've used degreed dead on. If it's just luck I've been one lucky duck.
See I'm so confused right now. I understand the purpose of the dual plane manifold but that cam's operating range 2,200 and 5,700. Isn't that a little high for a 5000 pound truck? The duration is fine but I still think my truck would be a pig even with a dual plane manifold.....
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I've decided to try and find a dual plane manifold but I'm still confused as to why I should get that summit cam....
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a dual plane intake and this cam is your best bet for low end power http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntt=sum-k1102&searchinresults=false&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&N=700+4294908216+4294840140+115 but it won't have a choppy idle like you want...btw I wouldn't doubt it if this cam is just a rebadged edelbrock camshaft ;)
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I've decided to try and find a dual plane manifold but I'm still confused as to why I should get that summit cam....
The reason I suggested a summit cam was $$$ as you indicated you were trying to save $.
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btw I wouldn't doubt it if this cam is just a rebadged edelbrock camshaft ;)
I've noticed that Edelbrock, GMPP, Crane, Summit, and Melling all offer that exact cam. I wouldn't doubt that they are all made in the same factory.
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The reason I suggested a summit cam was $$$ as you indicated you were trying to save $.
That's not what I'm concerned about. I was referring to the duration and its operating range. I think it might be too high for my application.
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I think in his earlier post, Vile wasn't necessarily recommending the K1105 cam for you. He was mainly illustrating the difference the dual plane manifold made over the single.
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You are correct I wasn't telling him to pick that cam although that cam performs nice for mild applications with a pretty nice sound and decent idle. I ran that cam in a 350 I built for my 84 K5. I had 2.02 heads with 72cc chambers, flat tops, dual plane high rise. It was in front of a 700r4 with 35" tires and 3.73's. It worked nicely especially considering I offroaded it and blasted down the highway at about 85mph every day.
When you chose a cam there are lots of things to consider as you already know but with experience you'll get to know what combinations work best for what.
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You are correct I wasn't telling him to pick that cam although that cam performs nice for mild applications with a pretty nice sound and decent idle. I ran that cam in a 350 I built for my 84 K5. I had 2.02 heads with 72cc chambers, flat tops, dual plane high rise. It was in front of a 700r4 with 35" tires and 3.73's. It worked nicely especially considering I offroaded it and blasted down the highway at about 85mph every day.
When you chose a cam there are lots of things to consider as you already know but with experience you'll get to know what combinations work best for what.
Well I'm pretty sure I have the cam nailed down to that comp I chose. Do you think a 1968 stock dual plane manifold would be just as good as an aftermarket dual plane intake?
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You really can't beat the modern designs. They help atomize the fuel better, have truer runner length and better port design, light weight etc. Velocity and flow is key to making good power and minimizing turbulence in the port yet maintaining an atomized a/f mixture at the same time for good combustion and maximum power.
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You really can't beat the modern designs. They help atomize the fuel better, have truer runner length and better port design, light weight etc. Velocity and flow is key to making good power and minimizing turbulence in the port yet maintaining an atomized a/f mixture at the same time for good combustion and maximum power.
Yea that's true. I got offered a quadrajet and a stock 68 intake for $75 but I already have a Edelbrock 1405, I just need a nice newer intake.
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this cam fits your needs desription. Crane 274HO6. 218@.050 .450 lift on a 106LSA. The 106 LSA will give you a choppy idle. I`ve never used it but alot of guys on another board I go to have and they like it.
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CRN%2D100172&autoview=sku
you should be able to find a used performer rpm for abour $50 or so. Are you sure your at 10:1? What is your deck height, piston type, head gasket thickness and head gasket bore? Most people actually have less compression than they think.
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if you have the single plane already, clean it up and sell it on fleabay and use the proceeds to get a dual plane.
i can attest to the single plane manifolds ruining the entire state of a mild motor, i deal with it every day, i also watch just about every auction that comes up for edelbrock 2101's