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73-87 Chevy _ GMC Trucks => Fuel Systems and Drivability => Topic started by: MayheM on May 05, 2014, 11:09:05 pm

Title: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on May 05, 2014, 11:09:05 pm
Hey guys, first post on the forum. Have been lurking some, but anyway to the point.
So.. I bought a rough 1980 GMC longbed a few weeks ago and have been going through things and trying to get it running.

Let me also say that I have absolutely no mechanical or fabricating knowledge. I've wanted a square for about 5 years and wanted to learn to work on it myself, and this is my way of doing it.

I rebuilt (or attempted to, was my first ever attempt to rebuild) the quadrajet that was on it. Got a new starter, checked spark(plugs probably should be changed anyway) etc. I got the truck to fire up with some gas poured into the carb, but it would die when that ran out.

I replaced my fuel pump today and the fuel filter on the front of the carb. However it still isn't getting gas inside the carb.. I'm guessing this because I had a cracked fuel line going into the carb and when I tried to start it, the line sprayed fuel. So I replaced that line and put a new filter in. There was gas in the line and where the filter goes, but there doesn't seem to be any gas getting into the carb.. So I guess I'm gonna have to tear it back apart? What should I check and will this require a complete rebuild?
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: bd on May 05, 2014, 11:26:59 pm
Is the filter behind the carburetor fuel inlet nut installed backwards?
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: Mario on May 05, 2014, 11:32:52 pm
If you know it's getting fuel up to the carburetor, then yeah, you're going to have to remove it and tear it down again.  In my experience in dealing with carbs that have had gas stored in them for a long period of time, you have spend a lot of time ensuring that they are clean.  An algae growth can clog up all the small passages.  Those passages carry fuel and vacuum air.  I would get a use once aluminum pan and boil water and detergent with the carb body in it.  Pull it out, and spray the passages with carb cleaner, and blow compressed air through them also.  You could spin small soft wire through some of them as well.  Sometimes it is a trial and error process until the carburetor gets clean enough to run properly.  Don't get down, just keep trying.  Good luck, Man! 
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on May 05, 2014, 11:40:41 pm
Is the filter behind the carburetor fuel inlet nut installed backwards?
I don't think so, the side with the hole is facing the nut. That's how the other came out.

If you know it's getting fuel up to the carburetor, then yeah, you're going to have to remove it and tear it down again.  In my experience in dealing with carbs that have had gas stored in them for a long period of time, you have spend a lot of time ensuring that they are clean.  An algae growth can clog up all the small passages.  Those passages carry fuel and vacuum air.  I would get a use once aluminum pan and boil water and detergent with the carb body in it.  Pull it out, and spray the passages with carb cleaner, and blow compressed air through them also.  You could spin small soft wire through some of them as well.  Sometimes it is a trial and error process until the carburetor gets clean enough to run properly.  Don't get down, just keep trying.  Good luck, Man!

Alrighty, I probably should of been more thorough with my first cleaning and rebuilding. I bought Cliff's how to rebuild/modify rochester quadrajets book. Maybe I'll do some of the stuff in there now that I'm a bit more familiar with the carb. I kind of just took it apart and cleaned the parts w/ carb cleaner and put the rebuild kit in and slapped it back on.

Should I look into maybe getting a new carb or just go with this one? I'd kind of like a new one but at the same time I'd like to get this one working and know every piece of it..
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: bd on May 06, 2014, 12:38:19 am
If you want to learn, there is no better way than rolling up your sleeves and digging in.  But, be methodical and don't get the cart ahead of the horse....

BTW, the inlet filter was installed correctly.   ;)

------------------------------

Here's a place to start.  It's time to perform some basic checks before you tear that carb back apart.  Incidentally, how old is the fuel in the tank?  Check all of the rubber fuel hoses for cracks/splits/resiliency/sponginess and replace with fuel rated hose as needed.

Pick up a vacuum/pressure gauge (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/anm-cp7803/overview/) and check the fuel pump pressure (5-7 PSI), suction (>20" Hg), and volume (minimum of 1 quart fuel in 30 seconds of cranking - healthy pumps typically deliver 1 qt in ~20 sec).  When performing fuel related tests, remain alert and have a fire extinguisher at hand.  Work with an assistant.  Wipe up any fuel that spills right away.  No sparks or flames!  Disconnect power from the distributor, so the engine doesn't start.

Once you've verified adequate fuel delivery to the carburetor, remove the float bowl cover and recheck the float level.  Make sure the needle valve is properly hooked over the end of the float and not through one of its "holes."  And, make sure adjustments are performed precisely, per factory specifications.  If you have to tear it apart again, as Mario pointed out, make sure passages are clean and thoroughly blown out with compressed air.

A word to the wise - get the vehicle running correctly, before you modify the carb using Ruggles' book.  No need to introduce additional variables when you are trying to sort out a problem.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on May 06, 2014, 04:22:07 am
If you want to learn, there is no better way than rolling up your sleeves and digging in.  But, be methodical and don't get the cart ahead of the horse....

BTW, the inlet filter was installed correctly.   ;)

------------------------------

Here's a place to start.  It's time to perform some basic checks before you tear that carb back apart.  Incidentally, how old is the fuel in the tank?  Check all of the rubber fuel hoses for cracks/splits/resiliency/sponginess and replace with fuel rated hose as needed.

Pick up a vacuum/pressure gauge (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/anm-cp7803/overview/) and check the fuel pump pressure (5-7 PSI), suction (>20" Hg), and volume (minimum of 1 quart fuel in 30 seconds of cranking - healthy pumps typically deliver 1 qt in ~20 sec).  When performing fuel related tests, remain alert and have a fire extinguisher at hand.  Work with an assistant.  Wipe up any fuel that spills right away.  No sparks or flames!  Disconnect power from the distributor, so the engine doesn't start.

Once you've verified adequate fuel delivery to the carburetor, remove the float bowl cover and recheck the float level.  Make sure the needle valve is properly hooked over the end of the float and not through one of its "holes."  And, make sure adjustments are performed precisely, per factory specifications.  If you have to tear it apart again, as Mario pointed out, make sure passages are clean and thoroughly blown out with compressed air.

A word to the wise - get the vehicle running correctly, before you modify the carb using Ruggles' book.  No need to introduce additional variables when you are trying to sort out a problem.

The gas is pretty much fresh,  a small amount from last Thursday and all the rest from yesterday. I'll have to get a vacuum/pressure gauge and look up how to check that stuff. Then I'll go from there and check the things you've mentioned.. hopefully I don't have to rebuild it again but if I do its not that big of a deal. I'll just have to do it right this time haha.

Oh and by using the book I just meant following it on the rebuild part not the modding part, don't think I'm up for that yet.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: bake74 on May 06, 2014, 07:37:16 am
     Look at it this way.  You are learning something new that you can use from now on.  Do not look at it like you screwed up and have to do it over again, makes digging into it much more enjoyable.   ;)
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on May 07, 2014, 12:05:14 am
Do I need to get another rebuild kit or will the gaskets be fine still?

Also, the previous owner said the head gaskets needed to be replaced. There was definitely water in the oil, so should I just go ahead and change them when I take the carb off to rebuild it? Or should I try to get it running first to see what it does? It didn't knock when I started it by pouring gas in the carb but it smoked quite a bit.

If I should change them.. what is a decent torque wrench? I don't have one and have never used one. Also how will I know which gaskets to get? I noticed there were quite a few different ones when I looked them up
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: bd on May 07, 2014, 11:53:05 pm
Begin here...

...Check all of the rubber fuel hoses for cracks/splits/resiliency/sponginess and replace with fuel rated hose as needed.

Pick up a vacuum/pressure gauge (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/anm-cp7803/overview/) and check the fuel pump pressure (5-7 PSI), suction (>20" Hg), and volume (minimum of 1 quart fuel in 30 seconds of cranking - healthy pumps typically deliver 1 qt in ~20 sec).  When performing fuel related tests, remain alert and have a fire extinguisher at hand.  Work with an assistant.  Wipe up any fuel that spills right away.  No sparks or flames!  Disconnect power from the distributor, so the engine doesn't start.

Once you've verified adequate fuel delivery to the carburetor, remove the float bowl cover and recheck the float level.  Make sure the needle valve is properly hooked over the end of the float and not through one of its "holes."  And, make sure adjustments are performed precisely, per factory specifications.  If you have to tear it apart again, as Mario pointed out, make sure passages are clean and thoroughly blown out with compressed air.

You will "probably" be okay reusing the carb gaskets as long as none tear during disassembly.

Reinstall the carburetor before continuing, so you don't have fuel blowing everywhere during the next steps.

-----------------------

Concerning water in the oil:

On a 60+ degree day do you see profuse white smoke from the exhaust after running the engine for 30 seconds to a couple of minutes when first started cold? 

Water in the oil isn't necessarily a blown head gasket.  Deteriorated intake gaskets or cracks in the castings can also be a source of water in the oil.  Begin your evaluation by checking cylinder condition. 

Remove all the spark plugs and keep them in order by cylinder.  Do any of the spark plugs look wet or have coolant on them?  Are any of the spark plug electrodes/insulators particularly clean relative to the others?  Have an assistant crank the engine while you watch under the hood.  Stay clear of the fan and belts!  Watch for a white cloud or mist blowing out of a cylinder on the first engine revolution - that is an indication of water in that cylinder.  Next, run a (dry) compression check to identify any low cylinders and write down the results.  Run a second (wet) compression check on each cylinder after squirting two oil can shots of 30 wt oil into each cylinder, one at a time, in turn, as you recheck the compression.  Post all your results, dry and wet.  You may be able to rent a compression gauge from your local parts house.  You won't need a torque wrench for these initial checks.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on May 08, 2014, 02:21:52 am
Begin here...

...Check all of the rubber fuel hoses for cracks/splits/resiliency/sponginess and replace with fuel rated hose as needed.

Pick up a vacuum/pressure gauge (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/anm-cp7803/overview/) and check the fuel pump pressure (5-7 PSI), suction (>20" Hg), and volume (minimum of 1 quart fuel in 30 seconds of cranking - healthy pumps typically deliver 1 qt in ~20 sec).  When performing fuel related tests, remain alert and have a fire extinguisher at hand.  Work with an assistant.  Wipe up any fuel that spills right away.  No sparks or flames!  Disconnect power from the distributor, so the engine doesn't start.

Once you've verified adequate fuel delivery to the carburetor, remove the float bowl cover and recheck the float level.  Make sure the needle valve is properly hooked over the end of the float and not through one of its "holes."  And, make sure adjustments are performed precisely, per factory specifications.  If you have to tear it apart again, as Mario pointed out, make sure passages are clean and thoroughly blown out with compressed air.

You will "probably" be okay reusing the carb gaskets as long as none tear during disassembly.

Reinstall the carburetor before continuing, so you don't have fuel blowing everywhere during the next steps.

-----------------------

Concerning water in the oil:

On a 60+ degree day do you see profuse white smoke from the exhaust after running the engine for 30 seconds to a couple of minutes when first started cold? 

Water in the oil isn't necessarily a blown head gasket.  Deteriorated intake gaskets or cracks in the castings can also be a source of water in the oil.  Begin your evaluation by checking cylinder condition. 

Remove all the spark plugs and keep them in order by cylinder.  Do any of the spark plugs look wet or have coolant on them?  Are any of the spark plug electrodes/insulators particularly clean relative to the others?  Have an assistant crank the engine while you watch under the hood.  Stay clear of the fan and belts!  Watch for a white cloud or mist blowing out of a cylinder on the first engine revolution - that is an indication of water in that cylinder.  Next, run a (dry) compression check to identify any low cylinders and write down the results.  Run a second (wet) compression check on each cylinder after squirting two oil can shots of 30 wt oil into each cylinder, one at a time, in turn, as you recheck the compression.  Post all your results, dry and wet.  You may be able to rent a compression gauge from your local parts house.  You won't need a torque wrench for these initial checks.

Thanks a ton! I was wanting to get it running to check smoking and whatnot. I'll try to get the carb re cleaned and assembled this weekend if I can, then I'll try going through your steps. I never thought of looking at all of the plugs for differences. . And a compression gauge was on my shopping list. I just looked up how to check it the other day. I'll be back with all my results hopefully early next week.

Thanks again for spending your time helping me out.


EDIT: I just got home and ordered that vacuum/pressure kit and also a compression test kit. They should be here next week, I'm gonna go ahead and tear the carb apart this weekend. I'll completely disassemble it this time and soak it before spraying out all of the passages and whatnot. I'm pretty sure some of them are blocked up just from my inspection when i took the top off of it while it was still on the truck.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: rich weyand on May 09, 2014, 01:07:54 am
When you blow out passages, try to blow them out in the direction opposite air/fuel flow.  Whatever blocked them got in at the entrance, and will leave easier headed back the way it got in in.  You don't want to embed anything deeper.  Hint: all flow in a carb is toward the intake manifold.

Also: BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL WITH CARB CLEANERS.  All are extremely flammable, and combustion of most of them results in poisonous decomposition byproducts.  For example, don't smoke anywhere near the stuff, and don't burn your paper towels or rags when the job is complete if they contain carb cleaner.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on May 11, 2014, 01:31:19 am
When you blow out passages, try to blow them out in the direction opposite air/fuel flow.  Whatever blocked them got in at the entrance, and will leave easier headed back the way it got in in.  You don't want to embed anything deeper.  Hint: all flow in a carb is toward the intake manifold.

Also: BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL WITH CARB CLEANERS.  All are extremely flammable, and combustion of most of them results in poisonous decomposition byproducts.  For example, don't smoke anywhere near the stuff, and don't burn your paper towels or rags when the job is complete if they contain carb cleaner.

Thanks for the tips! I disassembled it again today, then soaked and sprayed it, then reassembled it just now.

I think I got the passages flowing. I wasn't exactly sure where they all flowed to but spraying carb cleaner through them seemed to spray it out somewhere else instead of back at me.

There is 1 part on the side of the carb that I'm not sure is on right. It is on how my pics were from before it was taken off the truck, but I don't know for sure that is right. It's a little thing that stops the secondaries(I think that's what they are? the bigger ones) from opening if it is in a certain position. However nothing is keeping it from falling in front of them or holding it away. I'll try to get a pic up.

Still have to clean some of the rust up, was just mocking it up. I can get more pics if needed, thats just what I was talking about.. There is nothing actuating it, it just sits freely. Is it on wrong? that's how it was originally there when i got the truck.

Heres a link to the pic http://imgur.com/2UhDWF1

(http://s3.postimg.org/giyiazl27/carbthing.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/giyiazl27/)
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: bd on May 11, 2014, 01:44:58 am
The secondary lockout is a small pivoting lever that prevents secondary throttle opening prior to the choke opening fully.  If you force the choke linkage all the way open, the lockout should pivot away from the secondary throttle shaft pin and allow secondary opening.  A good pic will be ideal for verification.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on May 11, 2014, 02:53:18 am
The secondary lockout is a small pivoting lever that prevents secondary throttle opening prior to the choke opening fully.  If you force the choke linkage all the way open, the lockout should pivot away from the secondary throttle shaft pin and allow secondary opening.  A good pic will be ideal for verification.

I threw a pic up. I can take more if you need.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: bd on May 11, 2014, 10:22:21 am
That appears correct.  When the choke closes the lever will engage the pin on the secondary throttle shaft and prevent secondary opening.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on May 11, 2014, 08:46:54 pm
I got the carb back on, and put a new neutral safety switch on(I don't think I did this right though because now it starts in any gear instead of just park and neutral.. however that's better than only reverse like before. I'll fiddle with it more tomorrow).

I went to start the truck and the battery was completely dead.. I'm not sure what the problem with the battery is. I don't know if I killed it trying to start it so many times when going through my wiring problems(not a good ground on negative cable, was melting the body ground) and then starter and fuel pump issues..

I don't have a battery charger, and I'm not sure if it would be chargable. I tried to jump it and it worked but only for about 2 attempts then it wouldn't even turn the headlights on.. I'm afraid to buy a new battery because I don't want to just kill it too.


EDIT: On 1 good note though.. It did splutter some and try to start up without me pouring any gas or anything in the carb, just pumping the accelerator a bit. So I assume the carb is getting some gas now, I'm going to check the fuel pressure and all that whenever that gauge kit comes in this week.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on May 16, 2014, 06:52:30 pm
Well I got the battery charged today at work. I put it on the truck when I got home and I got it fired up just by working the pedal a bit! I kept it running a bit. No more than a minute each time really.

However, it's smoking(white smoke) out of the tailpipes and there is liquid coming out of them aswell (I'm guessing water). I got my compression gauge in this week so now that the weather is better and I have a working battery I'm going to try to check the compression tomorrow.

So list of bads.. water in the oil, smoking, water out of the exhaust..
What all could these signs point to? As I said earlier in the thread, I was told it had a blown head gasket.. I just hope it isn't more, but if so then I'll rebuild it. Or try haha
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: bd on May 16, 2014, 08:06:43 pm
At least three possibilities are (1) blown head gasket - the most common scenario, (2) leaking intake gasket, (3) cracked block or cylinder head.

Concerning water in the oil:

On a 60+ degree day do you see profuse white smoke from the exhaust after running the engine for 30 seconds to a couple of minutes when first started cold? 

Water in the oil isn't necessarily a blown head gasket.  Deteriorated intake gaskets or cracks in the castings can also be a source of water in the oil.  Begin your evaluation by checking cylinder condition. 

Remove all the spark plugs and keep them in order by cylinder.  Do any of the spark plugs look wet or have coolant on them?  Are any of the spark plug electrodes/insulators particularly clean relative to the others?  Have an assistant crank the engine while you watch under the hood.  Stay clear of the fan and belts!  Watch for a white cloud or mist blowing out of a cylinder on the first engine revolution - that is an indication of water in that cylinder.  Next, run a (dry) compression check to identify any low cylinders and write down the results.  Run a second (wet) compression check on each cylinder after squirting two oil can shots of 30 wt oil into each cylinder, one at a time, in turn, as you recheck the compression.  Post all your results, dry and wet.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on May 16, 2014, 08:59:23 pm
Forgive me, I completely forgot about that post. Thanks for reposting it! I'll try to get to work this weekend. Also I have a question about that. Did you mean crank the engine with all the plugs out to look for mist? Or just watch in the engine bay while cranking? I did notice there was a lingering cloud of mist or light smoke in the engine bay after I turned the truck off today. Seemed to be coming from below the valve cover on the drivers side.

I plan on pulling the plugs to check them tomorrow and check my compression as well.  Will post pics and results. Thanks so much for your time and awesome help

At least three possibilities are (1) blown head gasket - the most common scenario, (2) leaking intake gasket, (3) cracked block or cylinder head.

Concerning water in the oil:

On a 60+ degree day do you see profuse white smoke from the exhaust after running the engine for 30 seconds to a couple of minutes when first started cold? 

Water in the oil isn't necessarily a blown head gasket.  Deteriorated intake gaskets or cracks in the castings can also be a source of water in the oil.  Begin your evaluation by checking cylinder condition. 

Remove all the spark plugs and keep them in order by cylinder.  Do any of the spark plugs look wet or have coolant on them?  Are any of the spark plug electrodes/insulators particularly clean relative to the others?  Have an assistant crank the engine while you watch under the hood.  Stay clear of the fan and belts!  Watch for a white cloud or mist blowing out of a cylinder on the first engine revolution - that is an indication of water in that cylinder.  Next, run a (dry) compression check to identify any low cylinders and write down the results.  Run a second (wet) compression check on each cylinder after squirting two oil can shots of 30 wt oil into each cylinder, one at a time, in turn, as you recheck the compression.  Post all your results, dry and wet.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: bd on May 16, 2014, 10:30:44 pm
Did you mean crank the engine with all the plugs out to look for mist? Or just watch in the engine bay while cranking?
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: LeftysRodandCustom on May 16, 2014, 10:38:02 pm
Whichever scenario it is, it isnt going to be good, but it will dang sure in my opinion be easier than rebuilding a Q-jet. You're on the right track and with some excellent advice, you'll get it for sure.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on May 17, 2014, 12:05:15 am
Did you mean crank the engine with all the plugs out to look for mist? Or just watch in the engine bay while cranking?
  • Remove all the spark plugs, but keep them in their correct order by cylinder.

  • Inspect the spark plug insulators and electrodes for traces of water (tiny droplets or rust residue) and combustion deposits.  Exceptionally clean spark plugs maybe an indicator of water in that cylinder, because water steam cleans the combustion chamber.

  • Disconnect the 12-volt power lead from the distributor, so the plug wires can't spark.

  • While you're watching under the hood, and your fingers are clear of the belts and fan, have an assistant crank the engine over about two complete revolutions.  If there is water in a cylinder, it will blow out forcefully on the first revolution.  Observing where the mist originates will help you focus your attention.

  • Now, you're ready to proceed with the compression check as previously outlined.

Thanks again man, you've been extremely helpful and I appreciate it a ton. Hopefully I don't get too annoying. If I can't follow those directions and the ones you've outlined for the compression test, then I should stay away from the truck haha.


Whichever scenario it is, it isnt going to be good, but it will dang sure in my opinion be easier than rebuilding a Q-jet. You're on the right track and with some excellent advice, you'll get it for sure.

I'll learn something for sure, that's what it's all about in my mind. I'm not sure how well I rebuilt the Q-jet, but it seems to have worked somewhat today.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on May 17, 2014, 07:08:11 pm
Let's see if the post works this time. I pulled the plugs and checked the compression today. I didn't notice any big difference in the plugs. I have close up pics that I will upload when I get home tonight.

The compression results were as follows.. forgive me but I don't know which number each cylinder is.
The order is front to back of engine.
Driver's side
Dry - Wet
135 - 150
75 - 80
60 - 65
115 - 120

Passenger's side
Dry - Wet
145 - 155
140 - 155
120 - 135
145 - 145

The 140 on the passenger was actually between 140 and 145.

EDIT: Posted on my phone and it jumbled it all up.. fixed it
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: LeftysRodandCustom on May 17, 2014, 08:35:07 pm
On a chevrolet the drivers side is the "odd" side. So from front to back the cylinders run 1,3,5,7 and on the passenger side from the front to back is 2,4,6,8   The firing order of these can be referenced on the intake manifold just in front of the carb. 18436572  If ever you change distributors etc this will be invaluable to you. Now your compression numbers are telling a story all their own, with cylinders 3 and 5 putting up very low numbers. My guess and only a guess is that you'll find the head gasket to be blown right between the two at the top water jacket. This would explain not leaking externally but being able to leak pressure off between the two on different strokes and the water in the exhaust. I would pull both heads being as you're going to be that far in anyway and have the left bank checked for cracks at a minimum. The good news if there are no cracks is that its not that bad of a fix. Clean the surface well and follow the torque procedure and some valve setting and you're there, all of which you can get great advice on right here if you get stuck.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on May 17, 2014, 09:58:24 pm
On a chevrolet the drivers side is the "odd" side. So from front to back the cylinders run 1,3,5,7 and on the passenger side from the front to back is 2,4,6,8   The firing order of these can be referenced on the intake manifold just in front of the carb. 18436572  If ever you change distributors etc this will be invaluable to you. Now your compression numbers are telling a story all their own, with cylinders 3 and 5 putting up very low numbers. My guess and only a guess is that you'll find the head gasket to be blown right between the two at the top water jacket. This would explain not leaking externally but being able to leak pressure off between the two on different strokes and the water in the exhaust. I would pull both heads being as you're going to be that far in anyway and have the left bank checked for cracks at a minimum. The good news if there are no cracks is that its not that bad of a fix. Clean the surface well and follow the torque procedure and some valve setting and you're there, all of which you can get great advice on right here if you get stuck.

Thanks for the info! I have a few questions though. By get the heads checked for cracks, you mean I should find a shop to test them for me? And if they're good I should just replace both head gaskets. What info do I need to know on the gaskets? I kinda looked at them on a few websites but they have all kinds of different ones lol.

Also, is there other things I should inspect while I'm into the engine that far?


Here is an album of pics of the plugs, I believe the order is 1, 3, 5, 7, 2, 4, 6 ,8(driver front to back then passenger if theyre in the right order, that should be the order I took them). They got a bit dirty because I had them on the ground on a shop towel and some dirt got on them, but I wiped the dirt off before putting them back in.

Spark Plug Pics
http://imgur.com/a/AiAto

Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: LeftysRodandCustom on May 18, 2014, 12:30:54 am
If you get down to it and find an obvously blown head gasket then you might be able to get by just replacing it, but if it doesnt jump right out at you I'd take them to a local machine shop to have them cleaned and crack checked. If you bolt on a cracked head you will encounter the very same problem right at startup really. As for gaskets, yes there are dozens of them that fit and are for different applications. If this is a daily driver on a factory head theres no real reason to get all crazy with the gaskets. A Fel-Pro 1003 would do just fine. It can get pretty blurry if you start diving into the different thicknesses, bores, and composition of them.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on May 18, 2014, 12:37:11 am
If you get down to it and find an obvously blown head gasket then you might be able to get by just replacing it, but if it doesnt jump right out at you I'd take them to a local machine shop to have them cleaned and crack checked. If you bolt on a cracked head you will encounter the very same problem right at startup really. As for gaskets, yes there are dozens of them that fit and are for different applications. If this is a daily driver on a factory head theres no real reason to get all crazy with the gaskets. A Fel-Pro 1003 would do just fine. It can get pretty blurry if you start diving into the different thicknesses, bores, and composition of them.

Thanks, I'll try to get the heads off of it early this week and get the gaskets and a torque wrench. I'll decide on the shop cleaning and crack checking them when I get them off. I might just do it anyway depending. I'll have to try to find a shop around here as well.

Also, what other gaskets will I need to replace? I'll research it but though I'd throw it up incase I forget
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: bd on May 18, 2014, 12:58:34 am
All the spark plugs are dark from soot, since the engine didn't come up to operating temperature on the prior start-up.  Cylinder #5 spark plug is damp with coolant; that cylinder also has the lowest compression.  Although they are all discolored, notice how spark plugs #3 and #5 are slightly cleaner than the rest?  I agree with Lefty - the gasket is blown between cylinders #3 and #5.  You're exhibiting some coolant in cylinder #8 too - probably due to pulse transfer through the intake manifold runners.  The #3 spark plug looks like it might have been a little tight coming out of the head.  You should chase the spark plug holes.  The #2 and #7 spark plugs are slightly wet with oil.  Have you noticed any blue exhaust smoke, especially on cold start-up?  The #7 cylinder is also low on compression.  Either cylinder #7 valves are just beginning to leak or the left head gasket is on the verge of failure there too.

What spark plugs are you using?

Now is a great time to check the timing chain play (next to last paragraph (http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php/topic,23175.msg192717/topicseen.html#msg192717)), before disassembly.

Both heads should be removed and sent to an automotive machine shop for disassembly, cleaning, inspection (including checking for cracks) and possibly surfacing and some machine work.  You should install new valve guide seals (use Viton press-on seals (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-ss72861/overview/make/chevrolet)).  The machine shop can provide the correct gasket sets, or you can purchase them yourself (I prefer FelPro Permatorque gaskets).  You will need two head gaskets, an intake manifold set, and possibly exhaust gaskets.  If you are using stock cast exhaust manifolds, pick up and install four Lisle 13000 manifold spreaders (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/lil-13000) BEFORE you unbolt the manifolds from the heads!

Once you get the heads off, remove the valve lifters one-at-a-time and inspect the lifter feet for concave wear (a common problem with GM camshafts).  If the lifters are worn concave the cam lobes are equally worn; replace the camshaft and lifters as a set and install a new double roller timing set.  Don't forget the timing cover gasket set. 

Clean and inspect all parts and keep them organized!  If the head bolts exhibit any evidence of pitting, rust, etc, replace them as a set.

Additional tools to rent or purchase:

Edit:
When you remove the lifters, DO NOT mix the lifters up!  Keep them mated with their respective cam lobes.

Purchase Ultra Copper (http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Permatex-3-oz-85-g-tube-Ultra-Copper-maximum-temperature-RTV-silicone-gasket-maker/_/N-25a0?itemIdentifier=554048_0_0_) silicone sealer for the intake manifold, exhaust manifold and timing cover gaskets and ARP PTFE sealer (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-9904/overview/) for the cylinder head and intake bolts.  Do not use any sealer on the head gaskets.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on May 18, 2014, 02:00:40 am
All the spark plugs are dark from soot, since the engine didn't come up to operating temperature on the prior start-up.  Cylinder #5 spark plug is damp with coolant; that cylinder also has the lowest compression.  Although they are all discolored, notice how spark plugs #3 and #5 are slightly cleaner than the rest?  I agree with Lefty - the gasket is blown between cylinders #3 and #5.  You're exhibiting some coolant in cylinder #8 too - probably due to pulse transfer through the intake manifold runners.  The #3 spark plug looks like it might have been a little tight coming out of the head.  You should chase the spark plug holes.  The #2 and #7 spark plugs are slightly wet with oil.  Have you noticed any blue exhaust smoke, especially on cold start-up?  The #7 cylinder is also low on compression.  Either cylinder #7 valves are just beginning to leak or the left head gasket is on the verge of failure there too.

What spark plugs are you using?

Now is a great time to check the timing chain play (next to last paragraph (http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php/topic,23175.msg192717/topicseen.html#msg192717)), before disassembly.

Both heads should be removed and sent to an automotive machine shop for disassembly, cleaning, inspection (including checking for cracks) and possibly surfacing and some machine work.  You should install new valve guide seals (use Viton press-on seals (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-ss72861/overview/make/chevrolet)).  The machine shop can provide the correct gasket sets, or you can purchase them yourself (I prefer FelPro Permatorque gaskets).  You will need two head gaskets, an intake manifold set, and possibly exhaust gaskets.  If you are using stock cast exhaust manifolds, pick up and install four Lisle 13000 manifold spreaders (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/lil-13000) BEFORE you unbolt the manifolds from the heads!

Once you get the heads off, remove the valve lifters one-at-a-time and inspect the lifter feet for concave wear (a common problem with GM camshafts).  If the lifters are worn concave the cam lobes are equally worn; replace the camshaft and lifters as a set and install a new double roller timing set.  Don't forget the timing cover gasket set. 

Clean and inspect all parts and keep them organized!  If the head bolts exhibit any evidence of pitting, rust, etc, replace them as a set.

Additional tools to rent or purchase:
  • Gasket scraper

  • Removing the lower timing (crank) gear requires a harmonic balancer puller/installer and a gear puller

  • 1/2" drive ~150 lbs-ft torque wrench

Edit:
When you remove the lifters, DO NOT mix the lifters up!  Keep them mated with their respective cam lobes.

Purchase Ultra Copper (http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Permatex-3-oz-85-g-tube-Ultra-Copper-maximum-temperature-RTV-silicone-gasket-maker/_/N-25a0?itemIdentifier=554048_0_0_) silicone sealer for the intake manifold, exhaust manifold and timing cover gaskets and ARP PTFE sealer (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-9904/overview/) for the cylinder head and intake bolts.  Do not use any sealer on the head gaskets.

The spark plugs are AcDelco R45TS (should i change them to something else? These are just what was in it when I got it a few weeks ago). On the blue smoke question, no I haven't noticed any but white. My brother in law and dad were behind it the first few times i started it and they said the smoke was white. It's only been started maybe 4 or 5 times now.

I'll read the timing chain link tomorrow and get that done before I disassemble anything. In the meantime I'll try to find a machine shop, I'm sure some of the guys I work with, or some my dad work with will know a good one (we're both machinists, just not automotive). I'll also look into the intake manifold set and exhaust. The truck has headers on it currently, so I can just unbolt them and put new gaskets on when I reinstall correct?

Thanks for all the advice. Your post was super informative and thorough, I really appreciate it. I'm sure I'll be back with a few more questions before I get it all tore down. I'll try to make sure to remember to check the timing chain before I start ripping things out.

I'll be back with updates as soon as I have anything done. Going to try to collect parts and tools, plus make a solid plan before I dive into this job.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: bd on May 18, 2014, 02:29:45 am
The spark plugs are AcDelco R45TS (should i change them to something else? These are just what was in it when I got it a few weeks ago).

R45TS is a popular plug that works well for most stock configurations.  If the engine has any tendency to ping once it's back together, try using the R43CTS.

The truck has headers on it currently, so I can just unbolt them and put new gaskets on when I reinstall correct?

Correct - and you won't need to worry about manifold distortion, so you can forgo the four spreaders.

I neglected to mention, pick up a roll of 80-grit paper and mill a 1.5" square block of oak about 6" long to make a hard, flat sanding block to surface the engine block and intake manifold sealing surfaces prior to reassembly.  This will remove minor surface imperfections and provide a truly clean, flat sealing surface with some bite for the gaskets.  Wet the paper with solvent or kerosene while 'sanding.'  Retain the paper with a sheet metal screw in one end.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on May 18, 2014, 03:01:12 pm
The spark plugs are AcDelco R45TS (should i change them to something else? These are just what was in it when I got it a few weeks ago).

R45TS is a popular plug that works well for most stock configurations.  If the engine has any tendency to ping once it's back together, try using the R43CTS.

The truck has headers on it currently, so I can just unbolt them and put new gaskets on when I reinstall correct?

Correct - and you won't need to worry about manifold distortion, so you can forgo the four spreaders.

I neglected to mention, pick up a roll of 80-grit paper and mill a 1.5" square block of oak about 6" long to make a hard, flat sanding block to surface the engine block and intake manifold sealing surfaces prior to reassembly.  This will remove minor surface imperfections and provide a truly clean, flat sealing surface with some bite for the gaskets.  Wet the paper with solvent or kerosene while 'sanding.'  Retain the paper with a sheet metal screw in one end.

I'll borrow some 80 grit from work. Why oak? Out of curiosity, would plastic or aluminum work? We have plenty of scrap at the shop of those 2 already the right size.

Also 2 more questions.  When I do get the heads off, how should I protect the engine? I have no garage, the truck sits outside. Lastly, if the lifters and cam are worn to the point of needing replacement,  should I consider a full rebuild?

Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: bd on May 18, 2014, 03:11:22 pm
How do you borrow emery cloth?

Any hard block matching the width of the paper will do.

To protect the engine from dust and "drop ins," lay a clean painters tarp or other makeshift cover over the engine when you're not working on it.  Assuming the hood is still mounted, it will keep the rain off.

You can evaluate the condition of the cylinder walls before deciding on whether to tear down further. 
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on May 18, 2014, 03:54:28 pm
How do you borrow emery cloth?

Any hard block matching the width of the paper will do.

To protect the engine from dust and "drop ins," lay a clean painters tarp or other makeshift cover over the engine when you're not working on it.  Assuming the hood is still mounted, it will keep the rain off.

You can evaluate the condition of the cylinder walls before deciding on whether to tear down further.

Borrow was just a nicer way of saying I would take it from work haha. We keep rolls of 80 - 400 and my boss doesn't mind and has let me use small amounts of it before for person things, and let's me use our small sandblasted for personal things if I want.

Okay I'll make sure I cover it nicely and yeah the hood is still on.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: bd on May 18, 2014, 04:56:23 pm
I posted 80 grit.  That's too coarse.  Use 100 or 120.  The idea is to thoroughly clean and prepare the sealing surfaces and gently dress off localized high spots, not remove a lot of metal.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: LeftysRodandCustom on May 19, 2014, 01:38:17 am
BD is spot on here, right down to the head bolts, the lube and keeping everything in order. Not enough can be said for those things. And where I work we dont call it borrow or take, we call it goverment work! If a full rebuild is in the budget then now is really the time to do it, as you'll be buying the gaskets once instead of doing it again later if you decide to. In that case the whole thing can be bought in a kit with all the gaskets, seals, rings, bearings, and in some cases even the cam a lifters. Again its all about your budget but if you go that route you will know exactly what you have and it should have some serious longevity.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: rich weyand on May 19, 2014, 02:24:04 am
Oh, man.  That's a lot of tear down and rebuild and parts.  At what point do you decide to start over with a new crate engine?  I guess the question I would ask is how many miles does it have on it?  You won't get the equal of a new engine without tearing it all the way down and hot tanking the block.  My original 350 had 140,000 miles on it when it started blowing antifreeze.  Cylinders 2, 5, and 6 were wet.  I decided to go with a new crate engine, and I'm happy about it.

I'm less happy about the 350/290hp engine I selected.  I paid $500 more for the mis-matched camshaft that comes in that engine, and ultimately had the engine re-cammed in the vehicle, which was a pricey job.  I could have ordered the 350/260hp engine and re-cammed it day one for almost nothing.  Granted, the 350/290hp engine was fun once you got it wound up -- the truck was a two-lane terror with that engine; the 50-90 times were insane -- but it took a while to get moving off the post.

As you are tearing into this engine, I would add up all the parts and machining costs you are looking at, so you don't shoot past the price point for a new crate engine with a nice torquey camshaft.  You can get the base level 350/260hp engine (#10067353) from Summit right now for $1,509.97 with free shipping.  Put the Comp Cams 12-235-2 cam in it before you even put it in the truck.  Sure, it voids the warranty, but those things are about as reliable as you can get.  The cam is another $119.97, and when replacing the cam you don't even need to replace the lifters or springs on a brand-new, never-been-run engine.

So for $1629.94, you can have a brand new engine.  You can get 290hp at 4000 and 415lbft at 2500 if you put a dual-plane manifold (Edelbrock 2101: $155.97) and headers (Hooker 2453: $190.95 at JEGS) on it, and still come in under $2000, or a bit more once you figure in some gaskets and getting flanges brazed onto the exhaust.  Even without those extras, you'll get about 220hp at 4000 and 325lbft at 3000, which is a nice little step up from the stock engine.  And it's a brand new engine with tight bores and new oil pump and no gunk in the passages and no worn journals and, and, and.

So, how many miles does that engine have on it?
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on May 19, 2014, 12:42:39 pm
Oh, man.  That's a lot of tear down and rebuild and parts.  At what point do you decide to start over with a new crate engine?  I guess the question I would ask is how many miles does it have on it?  You won't get the equal of a new engine without tearing it all the way down and hot tanking the block.  My original 350 had 140,000 miles on it when it started blowing antifreeze.  Cylinders 2, 5, and 6 were wet.  I decided to go with a new crate engine, and I'm happy about it.

I'm less happy about the 350/290hp engine I selected.  I paid $500 more for the mis-matched camshaft that comes in that engine, and ultimately had the engine re-cammed in the vehicle, which was a pricey job.  I could have ordered the 350/260hp engine and re-cammed it day one for almost nothing.  Granted, the 350/290hp engine was fun once you got it wound up -- the truck was a two-lane terror with that engine; the 50-90 times were insane -- but it took a while to get moving off the post.

As you are tearing into this engine, I would add up all the parts and machining costs you are looking at, so you don't shoot past the price point for a new crate engine with a nice torquey camshaft.  You can get the base level 350/260hp engine (#10067353) from Summit right now for $1,509.97 with free shipping.  Put the Comp Cams 12-235-2 cam in it before you even put it in the truck.  Sure, it voids the warranty, but those things are about as reliable as you can get.  The cam is another $119.97, and when replacing the cam you don't even need to replace the lifters or springs on a brand-new, never-been-run engine.

So for $1629.94, you can have a brand new engine.  You can get 290hp at 4000 and 415lbft at 2500 if you put a dual-plane manifold (Edelbrock 2101: $155.97) and headers (Hooker 2453: $190.95 at JEGS) on it, and still come in under $2000, or a bit more once you figure in some gaskets and getting flanges brazed onto the exhaust.  Even without those extras, you'll get about 220hp at 4000 and 325lbft at 3000, which is a nice little step up from the stock engine.  And it's a brand new engine with tight bores and new oil pump and no gunk in the passages and no worn journals and, and, and.

So, how many miles does that engine have on it?

I can't honestly tell you how many miles are on the engine. I doubt the odometer works, and this isn't the original engine that came from the factory. Were you suggesting looking into starting over w/ a crate engine if I end up needing to change in this one plus send the heads to a machine shop? or just if I needed to do a complete rebuild?

I kind of want to rebuild an engine for it just to do it. I'd like to build my own and learn how it all works inside, but as you've pointed out.. I'd be better off price wise just going w/ a crate engine and i would honestly probably be happy with it. I do want to build an engine that is more fun than my 2010 ram w/ the 5.7l hemi(ported tb, headers, hemifever tuned).. But I doubt I'd be able to afford to do that very soon.

BD is spot on here, right down to the head bolts, the lube and keeping everything in order. Not enough can be said for those things. And where I work we dont call it borrow or take, we call it goverment work! If a full rebuild is in the budget then now is really the time to do it, as you'll be buying the gaskets once instead of doing it again later if you decide to. In that case the whole thing can be bought in a kit with all the gaskets, seals, rings, bearings, and in some cases even the cam a lifters. Again its all about your budget but if you go that route you will know exactly what you have and it should have some serious longevity.

A full rebuild isn't particularly in the budget, but neither is it not.. I don't really have a budget, I'm just spending money on the truck as I can. If a full rebuild or new motor is in order then I'll have to save up for a few months at least. This truck is just my project though so I can learn to do mechanical work, I don't need it as a driver so it can sit around while I save some cash for it.

Also for everyone to see.. here is a video of me starting it about 30 minutes ago, it sat since about saturday afternoon before this.
Sorry about it being sideways, I forgot to turn my phone around!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDzysgDAu7M
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: rich weyand on May 19, 2014, 03:51:45 pm
Usually, "up" on a video will be whichever direction was up on the phone when you pushed the record button.

You would still get some mechanical knowledge if you bought a new crate engine and swapped out the cam.  You have to pull the valve covers and loosen the rockers and pop the pushrods out and pull the lifters and pull the timing cover and swap the cam and time it properly and then put it all back together and set the valve lash and put the intake on it and the carb and and and.  So you would get some wrench time and see how all the top-end wobbly parts work.  The bottom end is pretty boring, really.

And you will really, really like 415lbft of torque if you go that route.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on May 19, 2014, 05:26:49 pm
Usually, "up" on a video will be whichever direction was up on the phone when you pushed the record button.

You would still get some mechanical knowledge if you bought a new crate engine and swapped out the cam.  You have to pull the valve covers and loosen the rockers and pop the pushrods out and pull the lifters and pull the timing cover and swap the cam and time it properly and then put it all back together and set the valve lash and put the intake on it and the carb and and and.  So you would get some wrench time and see how all the top-end wobbly parts work.  The bottom end is pretty boring, really.

And you will really, really like 415lbft of torque if you go that route.

True. I hadn't really considered all of that. This seems like a pretty good option, however I'm still going to pull my heads and evaluate things seeing as I can't afford a new motor right now anyway. I'll try to do as thorough of an evaluation as I can and then weigh up the costs and pros/cons of the options.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: Dan75k20 on May 19, 2014, 06:19:00 pm
Looks like a bad head gasket or bad rings I had a,4.3 that literally blew oil out of the tail pipe good luck crate with a 12-235-2  would be nice that's the cam I run in a 355 with 882 heads flat tops edelbrock 1405 and performer intake headers and runs great id see about changing your head gaskets and,getting the heads re done and see how,it runs
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: rich weyand on May 20, 2014, 08:32:28 am
One note to my engine rant above.  Hooker 2453 headers fit the 4WD K trucks.  If it's a 2WD C truck, Summit says to use the Hooker 2452 headers.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: LeftysRodandCustom on May 23, 2014, 01:19:03 am
The crate option is definitely a good one depending on what you find. If you're even considering it then i would say tear that thing on down and teach yourself all that you want to because its destined for the parts bin or scrap heap at that point. Rebuild kits are relatively cheap. Summit sells a kit with all the gaskets, bearings, frost plugs, new oil pump, pistons, and rings for $237. Just missing a cam and lifters at that point. But the thing to remember when going that route is all the machine work. Hot tanking the block, all the head work, boring the block if need be,  it all adds up really quickly. The list can get longer with every part you pull out. Tear the heads off and see what you've got and then make a plan from there.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: rich weyand on May 25, 2014, 06:32:41 pm
Here's another option from another thread.  Build up the following:

Base level 350/260hp engine (GM #10067353)
Dart 127322 cylinder heads
Comp Cams 12-238-2 cam
dual-plane manifold (Edelbrock 2101)
headers (Hooker 2453 for K trucks, 2452 for C trucks)

For $3200, you can have 425 lbft at 2500 and 360 hp at 5000 rpm.  That's smokin' performance for $3200!
Title: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: roundhouse on May 25, 2014, 08:00:56 pm
I'd imagine swapping the cam would void the warranty on a new crate engine

Cheapest route is to buy a good running used engine from a wrecked truck
Should be able to get one for less than $400

Make sure to hear it run and do a compression check before you buy it
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on June 02, 2014, 12:13:20 am
Thanks for all of the replies!  It's really awesome to have so much help. I haven't got anything done because of weather(no garage and lots of rain) and being a bit sick lately. Also I've just been trying to save up a bit of money to split between the truck and my other interests. I'm going to try to get the heads off during the next week or two and see what it all looks like and weigh up my options. I'll definitely be back with results and pics whenever it happens!
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on June 19, 2014, 08:45:49 pm
I have an update and I'm not sure if I should start a new thread since this isn't about the carb anymore, but here goes.

I got to work on it finally this week, got the passenger side head off and moved on to the drivers side head today. I have the header off, plugs out, valve cover off, and all of the head bolts out.. but it wouldn't budge. It looks like there is a bolt in the bracket right in front of the head(holding what i think is power steering fluid), which is also connected to the pulley bracket. I can't tell for sure if this bolt is in the head, but it sure looks like it. Am i going to have to remove the pulley system and all of that to get my driver's side head off? I can't see any other way to get the bolt out. I know a picture would be helpful, I'll go outside and take one now.

Thanks for all the help

2 Pics of bolt, 1 of engine
http://imgur.com/JyVGUq5,MXg02Iz,wqPPbI2

Edit: added a link to the pics of the bolt I'm asking about and a picture of what the inside of the engine looks like. The pictures were too big to upload here, sorry about that. I've cleaned the water or whatever it is out of the cylinders and oiled them/covered them to try to prevent rusting.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: bd on June 19, 2014, 09:16:29 pm
You need to remove the power steering pump and brackets in front of the left (driver side) cylinder head.  You may be able to unbolt the pump and set it out of the way without disconnecting the lines.  Just make sure it doesn't lay against the radiator fins or it will bend them over.

There's no longer any question of whether you had water in the oil - the proof is in the mayonnaise.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on June 19, 2014, 09:21:49 pm
You need to remove the power steering pump and brackets in front of the left (driver side) cylinder head.  You may be able to unbolt the pump and set it out of the way without disconnecting the lines.  Just make sure it doesn't lay against the radiator fins or it will bend them over.

There's no longer any question of whether you had water in the oil - the proof is in the mayonnaise.

Haha thanks for the laugh. Yeah I knew there was from draining it and looking at the new oil i had in it. I've kept all the rods in order of removal. What should i do to inspect/clean them properly? Also what would you guys recommend for cleaning the intake? Because it's pretty grimy. Also will soaking up that oil on the block w/ rags be good enough or do I need to clean it with something?

Lastly, once I get the other head off and find a machine shop.. what exactly should I ask them to do? Or should I just go off of their recommendations?

Thanks for the time and sorry if I asked too many questions at once!
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: bd on June 20, 2014, 02:36:31 am
That's not the original motor.  What's the mileage on the odometer? 

Did you check timing chain play before tear-down?  What was the engine oil pressure?  Aside from the oil/water emulsion, the valley appears relatively clean.  Mop up the mocha and wipe the valley down with clean rags.  Augment the cleanup with a little carb spray if you like. 

I'll try to help you get your arms around this....

Before you dump any money into machine work, remove and inspect the valve lifters one-at-a-time, keeping them strictly in order so each can be reinserted into the same lifter bore from which it was removed.  You absolutely do not want to mix the lifters up between bores/cam lobes or you'll destroy an otherwise good cam!  The lifter feet should appear slightly convex-to-flat and show no signs of pitting or galling.  If the lifter feet are concave, pitted or galled, they are worn out and you should add the cost of a replacement cam, lifters and double roller timing chain set to your shopping list.

Similarly, keep the valve pushrods and rocker arms in order.  Wash the pushrod center holes with carb spray followed by compressed air.  Check the pushrods for straightness by rolling across a table or other flat surface; inspect the pushrod ends for uneven wear.  Inspect the wear surfaces of the rocker arms.

Post a few clear, close-up pics of the cylinder walls with the pistons down.  Are there vertical striations (scuffs) in the cylinder walls?  Do the walls appear shiny and polished?  Look very closely for cracks in the walls.  Are there concentric grooves around the tops of the cylinders?  If there are problems with the cylinder walls you should seriously consider installing a crate engine rather than rebuilding yours.

Talk to your machine shop and explain what happened then request an estimate from them for cylinder head repair that includes hot-tanking, magnafluxing, surfacing, grinding the valves and seats, checking the guides, and installing press-on Viton valve guide seals in addition to any recommendations they make as a result of their tear-down.

If the engine had good oil pressure before you tore it down, the bottom end is probably still okay with an oil and filter change.  If not, you've essentially escalated into a major overhaul.  You get the idea? 

Do your best to determine overall engine condition and get a complete picture of what you are facing, so you can take the best repair approach for minimal cost.  There is a point beyond which you are money ahead to install a new motor that carries a warranty.  So, take the time to perform a complete evaluation before committing your cash.
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: MayheM on June 20, 2014, 07:10:19 pm
That's not the original motor.  What's the mileage on the odometer? 

Did you check timing chain play before tear-down?  What was the engine oil pressure?  Aside from the oil/water emulsion, the valley appears relatively clean.  Mop up the mocha and wipe the valley down with clean rags.  Augment the cleanup with a little carb spray if you like. 

I'll try to help you get your arms around this....

Before you dump any money into machine work, remove and inspect the valve lifters one-at-a-time, keeping them strictly in order so each can be reinserted into the same lifter bore from which it was removed.  You absolutely do not want to mix the lifters up between bores/cam lobes or you'll destroy an otherwise good cam!  The lifter feet should appear slightly convex-to-flat and show no signs of pitting or galling.  If the lifter feet are concave, pitted or galled, they are worn out and you should add the cost of a replacement cam, lifters and double roller timing chain set to your shopping list.

Similarly, keep the valve pushrods and rocker arms in order.  Wash the pushrod center holes with carb spray followed by compressed air.  Check the pushrods for straightness by rolling across a table or other flat surface; inspect the pushrod ends for uneven wear.  Inspect the wear surfaces of the rocker arms.

Post a few clear, close-up pics of the cylinder walls with the pistons down.  Are there vertical striations (scuffs) in the cylinder walls?  Do the walls appear shiny and polished?  Look very closely for cracks in the walls.  Are there concentric grooves around the tops of the cylinders?  If there are problems with the cylinder walls you should seriously consider installing a crate engine rather than rebuilding yours.

Talk to your machine shop and explain what happened then request an estimate from them for cylinder head repair that includes hot-tanking, magnafluxing, surfacing, grinding the valves and seats, checking the guides, and installing press-on Viton valve guide seals in addition to any recommendations they make as a result of their tear-down.

If the engine had good oil pressure before you tore it down, the bottom end is probably still okay with an oil and filter change.  If not, you've essentially escalated into a major overhaul.  You get the idea? 

Do your best to determine overall engine condition and get a complete picture of what you are facing, so you can take the best repair approach for minimal cost.  There is a point beyond which you are money ahead to install a new motor that carries a warranty.  So, take the time to perform a complete evaluation before committing your cash.

I'll check the odometer when i go back out after dinner. No I didn't check the timing chain, I completely forgot until i was reading through the thread again yesterday. Also i never looked to see what the oil pressure was.

I got the driver's side head off about 30 mins ago. I took a pic of the gasket, it didn't seem that bad, there was a little tear between the middle cylinders. I pulled some of the lifters out that were up a bit so I could grab them, and took some pics that I will upload after i type this up. I'll inspect the cylinders tomorrow in better light and the pushrods aswell. If everything checks out I'll then get in contact w/ a machine shop. If not I'll look at my other options.

I feel like an idiot for not knowing what the oil pressure was, it just never crossed my mind to check.

Thanks for the detailed help again man, I'll try my best to follow it exactly this time and not forget to check things. I know it must be annoying to advise me to do something before teardown and then I don't.

EDIT: Here is a link to the pics, I only took 4 lifters out, I just took multiple pics of each of the 4(didn't remember which was which so i just put them all in the album).
http://imgur.com/a/iB6em
Title: Re: Not getting gas in carb
Post by: LeftysRodandCustom on June 24, 2014, 01:27:37 pm
New is new man, dont sweat a couple mistakes. One thing i'd add to what bd said is that even if the bottom end appears to be fine, if you've got the motor out and the pan off, change the oil pump. If you dont end up pulling it out then it'd be quite a chore but if you do, the oil pump is cheap insurance since you dont know the mileage. The gasket failure between the center cylinders is not in the least bit a surprise. Thats where you have two exhaust ports side by side, and thus a lot of heat. This is part of the reason for the LT1 having a reverse flow water pump in later years.