metal bits in lifter gallery

[lrryr]

Hi All, looking for any advice.

My 87 V10 TBI had an intake manifold job get pooched. It leaked oil and was steadily getting worse, long story short I pulled it this last weekend and saw a number of things. Keep in mind I'm looking here with a very suspicious eye may very well be reading too much into some of these things.

1. Removing the manifold bolts the range of torque I had to apply to remove them varied widely from bolt to bolt. I wonder if they were torqued down right in the first place. It's been about 4 months since the suspect repair. One bolt I had to use a breaker bar (I sit in front of computers 50-60 hours a week and am not as strong as I used to be so that may have something to do with that), other bolts seemed to break loose all too easily. Except for the one tight bolt this may be my imagination, didn't measure anything.

2. The gasket goop on the rear end of the manifold was about 1/8" thick at one side and paper thin at the other, doesn't seem like the manifold was even mounted right. I'm going to check the surfaces for flatness tonight if I can figure out how to get a datum, maybe it's warped.  I did over heat the engine once years ago (another story), so maybe that's the case.
When I pulled the manifold off zero gasket material stuck to the block, seems like it may not have been oil free or clean enough when it was installed.

3. Of the 12 bolts I took out 3 were longer than the others. I havn't seen any reference to different size bolts anywhere. I'm the original owner and that was the first time the manifold had been off the engine. Just weird. I bought a new set of bolts (hex head) that are all the same size as the smaller ones, I'm concerned the 3 longer bolts are original and there is a reason for them. I took a quick look and did not see that the thickness of the manifold was any different for the positions these guys were in.

4. Here's the worst part. I found two small metal bits in the lifter gallery, they appear to be pieces of the original gasket, thin strips one about an inch and a half long (corner piece from the gasket) and the other one is the same stuff but about 1/4" long.  I'm thinking I need to drop the oil pan and clean up in there too. The same guy replaced my oil pan gasket at the same time so that's another reason to take a look.

5. Just before I parked it and did this I noticed on acceleration and deceleration my oil pressure gauge would vary wildly. Normally that gauge has sat at 35 steadily over the life of the truck, I never noticed it move before. Now when I would brake or corner the pressure reading would swing from 35 up to 60 for a second or two then swing back down. From the lube diagrams I've seen it looks like the pressure sending unit is where it would see the filter output but not the bypass directly and I'm wondering if this has something to do with that, maybe there is some garbage in the oil pathway.

So my questions are:

1. Anything else I can do to be sure the all metal is out of there?

I'm planning on pouring some oil down through all the oil pathways in there as a wash and then draining the oil. Then putting in a magnet oil plug for the first short run after reassembly and changing the oil out again.

2. Should I put in a new oil pump? If so, I saw on tbichips.com he recommends a high pressure but normal volume oil pump to avoid problems with slow drain back into the oil pan. Seems more pressure may just lead to more filter bypass. Would any one else recommend this pump?

3. Is there any way to check the oil pathways from the pump up, and the return pathways without tearing the motor down completely?

4. Any thing else I should be doing while I've got it apart to this degree? Any other things to check? The motor has 125K on it and actually seemed to be running pretty good except for that ridiculous oil leak (fingers crossed).

An obvious question is why don't I bring it back to the shop and have them make it right. Well, I've decided I want to do all the work myself from now on and very much enjoy it. The shop is a one man shop and the owner is a good guy and a good mechanic, he hired someone and fired him right after my truck (I wonder if he told him before he was finished with the job). I know he is still responsible but frankly I don't want anyone else touching my truck again. I just finished getting my shop in order after moving in two years ago and am enjoying my time out there.

Sometimes I've got more balls than brains, hope that's not the case this time. I'm not a mechanic, so I'm moving carefully here and checking out every aspect.

Thanks for any help or advice.

Larry

[Captkaos]

1) There is no way to tell how well they were torqued now that you removed them, but they don't go on that tight.
2)If it sits level on the heads with no gaps I would assume everything is fine if this motor has never been apart.  Gaskets not "sticking doesn't mean anything unless they were wet or blown.  You said it has only been done for a while... 
3)Length of bolts is nothing to worry about, but if the motor is original, did you remove anything from the manifold?  The longer bolts generally go through brackets that bolt to the intake, if you get shorter ones, they won't work
4)The intake gasket wouldn't be metal are you sure it is metal, if so take a picture.  If they were just sitting there, I wouldn't worry much.  Change the oil and check for foreign stuff.
5)The sending unit is on top of the block it sees normal pressure.  If it is blocked you won't have any pressure.  Pull it out and check.

As for the other questions

1) you only saw 2 pieces of gasket material.  If there was more in there it would be in the filter by now.  The only way to find out if anything is hurt is pull the motor down.
2)If the original pump is working fine, why change it.  If you just want to change for piece of mind and this is a stock motor, just put a replacement pump on it.  I would check the screen while you have it apart if you are going that far.
3)this involves a complete teardown.

I personally think you are overreacting, If all they did was pull and replace the intake there is no way metal could be in there short of him throwing it in there.  Now he may have done a crappy job of cleaning up with the gaskets, but if you have driven it, all of that would be in the pan or the filter by now.

If you think they did a bad job, I would have them fix it for free, BUT since you have taken it apart that most likely ins't going to happen.

[lrryr]

Thanks Chris. That's the kind of sanity check I need here. I think I'll wait on dropping the oil pan, maybe put a new pressure sender unit in first as the way that gauge behaves has me concerned.

I removed everything but the TBI from the manifold. I was only paying enough attention when I took the bolts out to note which ones came out of where, so I'll double check if they were holding anything down as well, I didn't think so at the time.

Should I be seeing oil pressure on the dash gauge change from idle to high rev's? I'd guess so but this one has always behaved that way, steady at 30-35 and doesn't move, figured it was more of a cheap idiot light than anything else so I never questioned it.

Re having the shop fix it... It's an old rust bucket right now (for Colorado anyway). I drove it up to 100k miles after I bought it and since then for the last 20 years it's sat outside and was used once in a while as the family and friends truck to borrow when they needed one. My kid started driving this year and has basically stolen my car (beats playing chauffeur) so I started driving it again steadily about 6 months ago. I know the shop owner started the work, ran into a couple snapped exhaust bolts and other things. The bell housing had a crack so he removed it, had someone drive to Denver to pick up a used one he found, turned out to be the wrong one, tried to get the old one welded which was a no go, so he put the old one back on. When I located a housing later he put it in no charge. Good guy. He spent way more hours than he billed on it just doing that stuff. He got behind and hired somebody to finish it and we both got burned. So I'm not pissed and happy to be out there wrenching. Plus, right now I know I'd tend to see issues where there really aren't any as you've pointed out. Getting more exercise than I have in the last 20 years too.

Thanks again.

[Captkaos]

I would basically do an oil change and see if anything changes. 
If the oil gauge is acting differently from prior to now, I would see what happens after the cleanup.

[Sartobuilt]

Be careful with the long intake manifold bolts, they can hit the pushrods in certain spots if there too long, and also you need longer bolts in the end of the heads the threads start lower in the hole.
FYI on oil pressure, you need @ 7 psi for every 1,000 rpm. Rapid fluctuation of oil pressure leads me to believe you main and rods are a little worn. A little thing i like to do, when changing oil I sometimes don't fill the oil filter then on start-up you can hear how much noise the engine makes, this is a good indication on how much excessive bearing clearance you have.

My .02

[lrryr]

Thanks Starto,

The bolts are 1 1/16  and 1 3/16 long for the long ones so they are less than 1 1/4 which I read is where the trouble starts. The long ones weren't on the ends but that doesn't mean that isn't where they were in the first place.

I bought a set of Mr Gasket hex head bolts for this but measuring them they are only 15/16ths long (??).

On the oil, hope that's not the case. I never fill the oil filter (maybe I should?) and have never noticed a change in how she sounds, I'll pay close attention this weekend.

The pressure  fluctuation only started when I was losing a quart every 100 miles or less, was a pretty bad leak. I stayed on top of it so she never went lower than a quart low. I only drive about 100 miles a week.

I spent a good bit of time trying to be sure where it was coming from. I could only be certain it wasn't the distributor and wasn't the valve covers, could see the oil switch and it wasn't that either. Finally stuffed a towel back there and looked where the spots were, sure looked like the manifold. Then it got worse so I pulled the it, can't say I know for sure that is it though. And now that I'm looking in there it seems like oil would be splashing around in the gallery, but not puddled up against a leak under pressure that could explain a leak that bad, don't know, maybe I'm thinking too much again.  I'll know this weekend assuming I get it put back together right.

There has been no oil in the coolant or visa versa.

Anyway, with the leak and pressure thing I figured it was all tied together somehow.

Good thing I'm enjoying this.

[Sartobuilt]

If the oil pressure sender is at the location behind the intake manifold i would replace it. I cant see an intake manifold leaking one quart in a thousand miles(there isn't pressure there only some splash and vapor), and that would explain your fluctuating pressure at the gauge. Double check the intake bolts at the front of the heads. The 15/16 bolts might only engage two or three threads in the end holes.
I always fill the filter on my green truck in my aviator, but on my 86 Tahoe i never do, that one is mounted sideways it makes it a little messy.
One other thing that can happen, the oil return holes at the end of the heads could be plugged, causing oil to pool up while operating, causing it to leak (i have seen the center bolt valve covers push the gasket out at the corners)  and not have enough oil in the pan.

[lrryr]

The oil sender behind the manifold is the fuel pump switch. So the only places with oil pressure near where I located the leak are this and the distributor.

Guess I better crawl back there with a mirror and a flashlight while everything is off and I can see better and take a good look. Maybe what I'm doing here is manifold gasket replacement practice, heh heh, won't be funny if I create a problem though.

The shop did the valve cover gaskets also, better take a look in there too.

Another interesting thing is the lifters on the passenger side are a dark brownish dirty oil color getting progressively darker towards the back, and the drivers side are the gray metal color I'd expect except the very rear one which is brownish like the passenger side. The color is pretty uniform over the length of the lifter. Don't know what to think about that.

One corner of the manifold is .65", that would only leave about 4 threads on the new bolt (eyeballing for the washer), the other holes are .55 thick so those bolts would get 5 1/2 threads, the original bolts would get 7 1/2. I bought these because these are allen head bolts and 3 of the bolts are right against other parts of the manifold so it should be easier to get a hex drive in there on the torque wrench. I'll clean the old ones up and only use these if I need to. An old mechanical engineer once told me 1 1/2 threads gives 90% of the strength of a connection, that's probably why they would sell this set specified for this motor, but still I'm surprised at this and why mess around. Thanks for pointing this out.

Thanks for the help and direction Sarto.

[Sartobuilt]

The general rule I have been told for thread engagement is that it shud engage the threads the  same depth as the width of the bolt. Look at the bolt holes at the ends of the head the ones by the coolant passage. I have seen some that were countersunk. And also remember that there will be a gasket you have to consider for the bolt length. I have bought those intake bolts before and not used them.

There was a good thread recently on intake installation not to long ago. Check it out there was a good explination.

[lrryr]

Something new I just noticed. The felpro gaskets I took off have the rear most coolant ports blocked off on both gaskets, just a small .2" diameter hole in that section.

The edelbrock gaskets I bought have them open as I'd expect.

Unless there is some reason for this those holes should have been cut out and coolant to the rear of the engine has been restricted from one side to the other across the manifold.

Sheesh, am I just going off on a tangent again?

[Sartobuilt]

There shouldn't be a crossover in the intake. The only reason it needs to be open is if there is a heater hose nipple on the intake manifold at the rear.

[lrryr]

Thanks again Sarto. My heater hose is right there so it should have been open, but wouldn't have noticed that until this winter I guess.

Well she's alive and kicking after having a total dilettante have his way with her, lucky girl (lucky me). Ran rough at first, adjusted the timing by ear (need a timing light, tomorrow). The oil pump rod was in a different position than I thought it should have been in, don't know why it would have moved.

Warmed her up and put in a few miles, no oil dripping.... yet. I will be very pleased if she doesn't leak again like that, but after seeing whats in there I still can't imagine how she could lose so much oil from that gallery. And I don't know how the oil pressure is going to behave now. If the leak is really gone then that will be next, after I get my driveway cleaned up, looks like a giant thick oily rag.

This is good, have a vintage air AC unit sitting here to install that's been held up by this, and it was friggen hot out there today.

Thanks Sarto and Chris for the help, can't beat this place.

Larry

[Sartobuilt]

Great news!!!!
FYI, the oil pump will move a little when you pull the distributor, from a little residual pressure on it. If you ever do another intake gasket ( i hope you don't) put the distributor in where it needs to be, then if its not all of the way seated in the pump shaft you can hold the distributor down with a little pressure and have someone bump the starter and it will drop the rest of the way not effecting the cam and distributor alignment.