73-87chevytrucks.com
General Site Info => General Discussion => Topic started by: Stewart G Griffin on December 26, 2008, 01:03:25 pm
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Since we're coming up on the new year, i figured this would be an appropriate time to discuss our favorite automaker.
Predictions (and in a few months you can see if i was right or not):
Not nessesarily in order and i don't nessesarily agree with the following predictions:
1) Pontiac gone.
2) no more GMC
3) Corvette gone or moved to buick (even though corvette is profitable) The corvette is already a completely separate brand in japan. In this case, a wealthy person(s) will buy corvette name, tooling and factory. But it just won't be the same.
4) Camaro discontinued after one model year.
5) Malibu and impala morphed into one car, possibly to be called impala.
6) Volt flops
7) Chevy will continue to build trucks, but the styling gets worse and more bizarre.
8) New cruise successful, but they're saying they can't make a profit on small cars.
9) Cadillac stays, but who cares.
10) GM will try to use and/or collaborate with ford with drivetrains---engines and/or transmission.
11) GM will try to use and/or collaborate with toyota with drivetrains and carlines. They already do it now to a lesser extent with the cobalt which is a rebadged corolla in japan.
12) Gm still wants to combine with chrysler. It's like an alcoholic that knows drinking is bad, but just can't keep away from the bottle.............
13) Buick gets lamer than it already is. (actually, i feel buick is ok, it's just not as good as before which is why i'm using the term "lame.")
14) no more RWD cars for Gm except XLR, but this won't last either.
More as i think of them. Feel free to add.
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what makes you think buick will stay?
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what makes you think buick will stay?
2 words: Old People.
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I thought that's what cadillac is for :P
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1) Well, because i don't think they can cut more than one brand at a time. i know i said GMC would be gone too, but GMC and pontiac are really together. As far as saab, hummer etc., they are selling them, not disconinuing them. So they don't count.
2) The other reason is honestly, i think buick is lamer than pontiac and since gm managment sucks---this is something they would do-----cut the better brand. So that's another reason. See, my predictions are based on previous managerial behavior at gm. i mostly don't agree with my predicitons, but based on past behavior, this is exactly what they would do. Pontiac could easily be made awesome again, but some people are smokin' crack.
It's true that older people prefer buick and similar brands, but they also can and do like toyota camry's. But i think Buick will stay because apparently GM is trying to be as lame as possible and buick is lamer than pontiac. Actually, i don't even think it's a question of being lame as both pontiac and i think buick still sell quite a number of cars. Gm has their math screwed up and they are going to punish pontiac for it.
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Everyone is freaking over the economy but it will bounce back. GM will still be there and the volt will be a hot ticket. It's styling and concept is pretty impresive
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I thought that's what cadillac is for :P
Cadillac is for wanna be rich folks and rappers. :D
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I think it will depend on how much of a concession the Feds made the UAW take. As long as the UAW has a strangle hold on GM all of their divisions are in jeopardy. If the Feds were able to force deep enough cuts then most of GM will bounce back.
Buick might survive due to the popularity of the Enclave. It has sales numbers that are close to the GMC Arcadia, and still growing. They have so few models now that they might not disappear. If they could get the "Invicta" concept to market it should boost sales.
Buick Invicta-
(http://www.autounleashed.com/images/buick_invicta_concept.jpg)
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I hope you are wrong about GMC being gone. I actually prefer the styling of the GMC over the Chevrolet.
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1) i will bet here and now that the volt will flop. You name the stakes and see if we can reach an agreement, everyone here will be witness. No cash; i have a few parts laying around that i will probably never use. Or, if cash, then maybe the loser has to donate to this site or something. Or loser donates a part to a member in true need(although everyone is in need in some way?) If you just want to make it a bet with no stakes, that is cool too. Interested?
2) It's funny you (and about 12 other random persons) say that the GMC styling is different from chevy's. i still can't tell the difference; Am i missing something?
i personally believe that GMC should continue also, but there may not be any choice; Supposedly by eliminating brands, gm can save money because there will be less employees? And, as we know pensions, health care etc. are supposedly killing them.
Predictions continued:
Longshot prediction:
15) A Chinese company either buys GM outright or injects massive amounts of money into it and thus becomes joint owner. (bye-bye quality).
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Stewart, what's your thoughts on Saturn?
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The only difference btw GMC and Chevy is some faux wood trim and badges. Whats the point?? GM needs to trim the fat.. Saab should go too.
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I do predict one thing: The United Auto Workers will become less dominant. They are one of the reasons GM is having so much financial turmoil. Remember last year when GM plants had to shut down and the chain reaction it caused the supply manufacturers? They wanted Washington to step in and be a mediator. GM knew it was losing money then, and could not increase any more freakin salaries and benefits, but the Union suceeded in their threat of a large work stoppage. We see this about every other year now with GM. To prove their worth, the head guys at UAW threaten work stoppage. The manufactering industrial jobs are already the highest paid in their type of work, why keep asking until GM's back breaks? I don't get it. They are forcing down the hand that feeds them. C'mon people! You dont see Toyota doing this and GM workers are paid more than Toyota workers. Am i missing something? It is time for the UAW to take a freakin' hike.
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SgtDel you've said a mouth full your predictions sound good , I trully hope GM can get it together , an i totally agree w/ down w/ the UAW they have served there purpose now they need to go couse i'll never buy a new one till they make me , an pontiac was gone in 80 w/ the last true pontiac v-8 , yes it was junk but still a pontiac v-8
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GMC and Chevrolet are built on the same assembly line, cutting either one would just be a matter of saving grilles and badging.
UAW is definitely a killer on the Big 3's side. The concept of a union is great, but the UAW now is just a political vehicle leveraging workers. They should have been gone years ago when this started happening.
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What do you consider a flop?
By 2011 plug in hybrids will be everywhere. Gas prices go up and people want fuel efficient vehicles. I'm surprised you stewart would even say this when you try to find any possible way to save a penny on fuel. The cost of electricity vs fuel is a huge savings and the Volt is actually a decent looking car. I have a 2007 prius at work that I use to teach my students about hybrid technology and this is the way the future is going like it or not. The ICE engine is taking a backseat to electric powertrains so get used to seeing more and more of them on the road. By 2020 you should expect to see pay to plug in stations everywhere. Malls, rest stops, restaurants etc. I think the Volt has already caused enough stir with the public that there will be a waiting line for them when they become available.
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i really hope gm stays around because i really hate ford. lol. i personally think the new camaro will be a hit. its the only thing gm has to match up with the mustang and its a lot better than the mustang. its got a bigger motor. i dont really know much about the volt. as far as the chevy gmc thing they the same besides a few little trim pieces and luxury stuff on the interior. they should get rid of saturn they are doing nothing.
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Here is my opinion on what GM needs to do.
1)Make Chevy the car company, get rid of Buick and Pontiac. Roll the good sellers into the chevy lineup.
2)Make GMC the truck company.
3)Made Caddy the luxury line of cars, No rebadged trucks like the Escalade!!
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plugging cars in does not mean less pollution. that electricity, at least more the majority here in the midwest, is made from coal fired power plants which pollute alot.
I happen to be a coal hauler for power plants all across the state of Illinois and probably just means more job security for me but I dont think its the answer.
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I was watching BBC's Top Gear one night. And one of the hosts, Jeremy Clarkson, reported that the Toyota Prius actually puts out more pollution in it's lifetime than a Land Rover Discovery. My understanding was that this estimate was based on the amount of pollution created by the production of the Prius' battery cells plus its exhaust emissions versus the exhaust emissions of the Land Rover. Interesting.
Even if this is not true there is a moral to this story. Even when all cars are fully electric and electricity comes from solar or wind production, there is still no such thing as zero emissions...until they figure out how to make cars run off of the drivers' rage. Then cars would have something like the equivalent of 1000hp.
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I like novadiecasts idea for GM I like GMC's better anyway (grille) ;D
The only thing I don't like about electric cars (If they can fix this I'd jump on board) is you have to wait for it to charge, and charge it up everywhere you go. In my gas guzzling truck, I fill up once a week and basically forget about fuel for 600 miles (I'm spoiled by my truck). Also when I run out of gas, it only takes a couple of minutes to fill it up and then its instantly ready to go again. My only gripe is having to wait on a charger. I just know I don't want my car to be limited like my golf cart is. The other big thing is no infrastructure in public places right now, but it will come after a while. If I could get 400-500 miles out of a charge, I'd buy one. But I'd still drive the gas burners on 500+ mile trips since we switch off driving to get there faster and not have to pay hotels, so I don't want to wait on a charge. And for the speed demons, electric motors aren't like gas engines that have a specific RPM they make the most power at, electric motors have full torque at any RPM any time you want it, a definate plus to me. If they can make it conveniant and have decent range I'd jump on with anything not gasoline based so we can thumb our noses at those arabs we depend on now. heck I'd convert the truck to hydrogen or electric if it impressed me enough, no question.
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As cheesy as it sounds, my main gripe about electric motors is losing that glorious V8 exhaust note. Other than that, I think they're just jim-dandy. I dunno, maybe if I amplify the electric motor's whine and roll down the windows, I could imagine I'm strapped to a jet engine hurdling into space.
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my main gripe about electric motors is losing that glorious V8 exhaust note.
Get a 1,000 watt amp and a nice cd player. Burn a cd of your favorite exhaust sound wide open. Then, play it forever and freak people out who pull up next to you.
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7) Chevy will continue to build trucks, but the styling gets worse and more bizarre.
I may be alone on this one but I don't think that is possible. My opinion is still that the truck died in 1994.
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1) Saturn: When they first came out, i didn't dig them. Now, i feel that saturn is sort of like the new oldsmobile---they even have the same/similar symbol---red background with silver "arms." i have heard that in the 14 or so yrs that saturn has been in existence, they've failed to make a profit. If that is true, then maybe they need to go too. i won't miss them. Other than that, i think they're ok; i like the Sky, i also like that center dash thing they used to have.
2) The union thing: Now, the first thing is that i am not against unions at all, as a matter of fact my last job was union and in contrast to my new job---where my boss is playing games with my hours and giving his buddy some of my hours (i've been w/the company longer than his buddy, 2yrs vs. 1 month), that kind of crap would have never happened at my old job.
a) Anyways, i never quite understood why, say bolting on wheels or fenders or whatever all day is worth $27 and hour. Yes, these people do have an important job, but important to $27/hr?
b) Why in the world did GM (and the other 2)ever agree to such things as the really, let's face it---- generous wages and the enormous pensions? And also "job bank?" Yes, i understand about the proposed strikes and all, but there must be a way around that? At any rate, i agree that the UAW will have to "soften up,"/become less dominant if GM is to survive and i think they, the uaw, know this.
3) i love pontiac v-8's 400 inches and under. The 301 and 265 were very smooth. But i think it did make sense back then to discontinue them and have chevy as the main supplier to all other gm's for the 8 cylinder.
4) OK, you're right; i thought i knew both setups, but upon further reading i realize that i didn't really understand how the prius and similar cars worked. And i didn't fully understand how the Volt was setup. The volt is sort of setup like a locomotive and that's cool. Whereas prius and co, the gas engine and the electric motors are powering the car, just not nessesarily at the same time. The volt would actually be perfect for me as one of my jobs is 9 miles away and the other 27. One job has exterior electrical outlets---because we have trucks parked at the warehouse. But even if we didn't, it would still work.
i think chevy has a winner---it might be the new citation. i don't know if it will take off crazy, but it won't flop as i suggested earlier.
i think every GM division except maybe cadillac should get this car.
i would define flop as a model that is discontinued within 4 model years and the company loses money on it.
a) the other thing is, i don't know if i agree that hybrids are the wave of the future. They could certainly coexist, but i think we'd be better off in general as a society to look towards alchohol, ethanol, gassahol etc. and ICE should still be the main powerplant.
5) new camaro won't last, that i'm sure of.
6)i feel that chevy(and gmc) truck styling basically died in 96 or so---when the 88 bodystyle ended. i think styling along with trimming expenses could really save gm. This new styling department head really gets on my nerves---and he thinks he so cool on top of that.
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how come no one thinks the new camaro wont last?
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the new camaro is a cool car. It does blow away the mustang however the price is high and everybody and their brother are going to run out and buy one. Eventually sales and waiting lists will fade and the price will come down and the demand will go down.
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Electricity will only be cheaper until the government finds a way to tax it. Then it will be as illegal to recharge at your house as it is to run farm gas on the highway.
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You can make your own electricity using solar and wind power and show the government your middle finger.
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You can make your own electricity using solar and wind power and show the government your middle finger.
That would be like moonshine was to taxed liquor, or would that be called sunshine now LOL ??!!
Them revenuers will get you, boy.
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You guys raise a good point. The gov't gets a lot of $$ from the taxes of each gallon of gas sold. Lots of it. What happens when gas is replaced with electricity? Yep, the gov't gonna wanna get some $$.
I say more nuclear power stations, the most efficient way to make electricity out there. There are two stations within 90 minutes of me, North Anna Nuclear, and Surry Nuclear. All nuclear around here and I can breathe just fine.
Northa Anna Nuclear Power Plant, Va here (http://www.dom.com/about/stations/nuclear/northanna/index.jsp)
Surry Nuclear Power Plant, Va here (http://www.dom.com/about/stations/nuclear/surry/index.jsp)
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You guys raise a good point. The gov't gets a lot of $$ from the taxes of each gallon of gas sold. Lots of it. What happens when gas is replaced with electricity? Yep, the gov't gonna wanna get some $$.
I say more nuclear power stations, the most efficient way to make electricity out there. There are two stations within 90 minutes of me, North Anna Nuclear, and Suffolk Nuclear. All nuclear around here and I can breathe just fine.
But do you glow ? lol
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But do you glow ? lol
You know, now that you mention it, I do see a lot better at night as if I am holding a flashlight, but, I am not. Being a Parrothead, it kinda reminds me of Jimmy Buffett's song Volcano, chorus below....
One more now I don't know (ah he don't know)
I don't know (he don't know, mon)
I don't know where I'm a gonna go
When the volcano blow
But I don't want to land in New York City
Don't want to land in Mexico (no no no)
Don't want to land on no Three Mile Island
Don't want to see my skin aglow (no no no)
Don't want to land in Commanche Sky park
Or in Nashville, Tennessee (no no no)
Don't want to land in no San Juan airport
Or the Yukon Territory (no no no)
Don't want to land no San Diego
Don't want to land in no Buzzards Bay (no no no)
Don't want to land on no Ayotollah
I got nothing more to say
Hear the song HERE (http://www.delbridge.net/volcanoblow.mp3)
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Because I am a GM employee and UAW member- a skilled trades machine repairman who works on robots and complicated painting application equipment in a paint shop , I have a larger stake in this discussion about the usefulness of the UAW than most. I don't disagree that the UAW has overstepped its boundries and has a bit of arrogance in many matters. I don't disagree with the statements made about our generous benefits. I don't have a problem with GM doing away with some of their low selling products. But I want you to realize how many jobs are affected by the dismantling of large industries and the lives of their employees and neighbors who are employed in supporting industries. Rather than rant about your opinions I will instead add a local newspaper article that I think supports most of my own thoughts. I hope you'll spend a minute to read it, it's kinda lengthy. But then, so are some of your posts.Thanks.
Opinion:
American vs. foreign automakers: The Civil War rejoined
William Andrews
It’s not easy for me to say something positive about President Bush because the last eight years have witnessed one unmitigated
disaster after another.
However, in going against his party to provide $17 billion in bailout loans to the Big Three, he has not only done the right thing, in
contrast to so many decisions of the recent past, he has done the smart thing.
And yet, what strikes me as illustrative of his ideologically driven anti-union and pro-finance bias is the fact that he is
conspicuously less insistent on and attentive to restrictive conditions imposed on the financial sector bailout for $1.4 trillion than
to the automotive industry for $17 billion. The former is 9 percent of GDP. By contrast the loan to GM is dust in the wind.
The impact of the bailout locally is not insignificant. Sixteen-thousand jobs related to GM in our area are on the line, and these
jobs represent tax revenues, purchasing power, demand for goods, and economic security in a time of serious financial instability.
However, if public opinion continues to be driven by envy and ideology, I suspect the rants and railings in Sound Off will continue
to attack GM and the UAW.
The animosity is nothing new. I can remember on the eve of Saturn’s arrival in the mid-eighties, an elderly gentleman predicted in
a letter-to-the-editor that the assembly plant would stimulate crime, alcohol consumption and an invasion by ethnic groups
unfamiliar with our ways. He spoke of Northern vices transplanted in the soil of a tranquil and bucolic South.
His image of the rural South could have been lifted wholesale from “Gone with the Wind” or “Song of the South,” films that
romanticized the culture of antebellum Dixie with its happy slaves, benevolent masters and beautiful belles with their chivalrous
beaus sipping mint juleps on the airy verandas of stately plantation mansions.
His sentiments, in cruder form, reflected the views of Fugitive writers like Robert Penn Warren and Allen Tate who evoked
nostalgia for the virtues of an antebellum agricultural South uncontaminated by the crass commercialism of the industrial North.
Although I was born in Michigan, I have lived in Tennessee since I was 6 months old and consider myself a Southerner. However,
from visits to my maternal grandparents in Detroit, I have come to appreciate both worlds.
From my study of history, I have learned that strength comes from adaptation and that failure to adjust to new realities ensures
stagnation and ultimate decline. Communities unable or unwilling to create good jobs suffer from a hemorrhaging of their young,
the life blood of future growth.
Every change brings challenges, but if change is anticipated by thoughtful planning and embraced by locals with a sense of
adventure and optimism, growth can be empowering. I know that my college, my church, my neighborhood and even my social life
have benefited from the arrival of newcomers.
Yes, we are in a serious global recession and, as President Bush said, “these are not normal times.” We are not in a position to
indulge the luxury of ideological consistency. To permit the collapse of the Big Three while we continue to subsidize their foreign
competitors somehow strikes me as unpatriotic.
Those local critics of the bailout plan for the American automotive industry don’t seem to understand that from the outset foreign
companies producing cars in the United States have inherent advantages over our domestic car companies by virtue of being
foreign. Their home countries heavily subsidize their enterprises abroad. Their healthcare systems are so much more
cost-effective in their countries of origin that German and Japanese firms can afford to provide benefits for workers here by
merely transferring savings. And they don’t suffer from the accumulating legacy costs of American car companies paying benefits
for a century. Not only are these foreign companies heavily subsidized by their own governments, they are heavily subsidized by
state and local governments here in the United States.
Today when Sound Off callers criticize GM workers for their higher wages, those who rant seem to forget that union wages have
elevated millions of industrial workers into the middle class and that middle class purchasing power has stimulated the economic
growth responsible for our national prosperity.
Commentators with an affinity for hyperbolic embellishment keep citing wages at $80/hour at GM. They are being deceptive and
disingenuous, because they factor in accumulated legacy costs for others. The reality is that beginning workers at GM labor for
$14/hour and the average is $28/hour.
A close friend who recently retired after a lifetime of work for GM told me that his final salary was $24/hour. All this is
conspicuously more modest than U.S. Senators like Bob Corker, Mitch McConnell, and Richard Shelby would have us believe.
And why, pray tell, are these politicians suddenly reciting the mantra of balance budgets and fiscal responsibility? Why have they
become poster boys in the battle against the UAW? The answer is that Nissan, Volkswagen, Toyota and other foreign automobile
companies are enticed to locate their assembly plants in these Southern states because of the promise of non-union labor along
with heavy subsidization by state and local governments.
And to placate their foreign “guests,” these unofficial “lobbyists” for foreign carmakers must smash unions, albeit with sound
bites about the need for competitiveness and efficiency. Corker’s anti-UAW animus is prompted by the fact that GM’s are the
only major auto-assembly facilities in the South that are unionized.
Allen Tate was one of the Fugitive writers from Vanderbilt University who in his prose and poetry promoted the romantic image of
a Southern way of life heroically resisting the temptation to sully its honor and betray its past by imitating the North. In old age,
however, he began to soften his views. During his final years in Nashville, my teenage sister was a volunteer caregiver at a
Catholic nursing home where she got to know the famous writer. She saw him prepare himself stoically for the ultimate change in
his life. I suppose he was more apt to embrace change when it could not be avoided.
By the time of his death in 1979, he had accepted a view of the South that was less provincial and more inclusive. He was more
comfortable with modernity. Times had changed and so had he. In this sense, Allen Tate could appreciate Teddy Roosevelt’s quip
about how organisms that fail to adapt set themselves up for their own extinction. And that progressive Republican president also
had a label for people who feared change and who clung emotionally to a past they had no role in fashioning. He called them
fossils.
William X. Andrews is a professor in the History Department at Columbia State Community College.
Story created Dec 23, 2008 - 16:17:07 EST.
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Not sure i understood the gist of the article, but thanks for posting it. i had pictures in my mind of some southern gentleman standing on the porch telling some woman he doesn't give a dam and then walking off into the sunset. Could you please help me understand it (the article)?
1) i am not against unions, in fact my next job may be union and my previous job was union. (Machinists and before that, Steamfitters)
2) More importantly i think the three big factors causing the current situation at GM are as follows, not nessesarily in order:
a) inaccurate prediction(s) of future market share; In the 60's, when you have 60% of the market, you feel big, confident and generous---hence the big pensions and healthcare.
b) bad styling. Self explainitory, but basically psychologically, it feels like you are paying more for less in my book at least. Also, let's face it, most/many people buy cars based on looks.
c) General shift towards other company's, specifically Japanese company's products. I.e., in the 80's if you were in high school or college, regardless if male or female, you had a third-gen trans-camaro period. This was the car to have. Now, today those same schmucks now drive honda rav 4's. Coincidence? No way. In the second true example, both my neighbors to the left and right, when i lived at home, used to drive domestic fullsizers---caprice, impala, lesabre etc. Now they both drive toyota camry's. And you have neigbors like that too! But also, in general, many people who bought caprice, crown victoria, now buy the toyota camry.
Toyota camry is the new impala.
This may be due to percieved notions that Japanese companies have higher quality. Irregardless, the shift has happened.
So, basically, i don't blame the union directly. i mainly blame GM for agreeing to, what i feel to be, possibly too generous of a healthcare/pension program.
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Personally I've never agreed with unions. People should receive wages and benefits based on performance, dedication, work ethic etc. They are losing out on paying assembly line workers, janitors, security guards etc all of these things that they may never even have earned but I also understand big businesses may benefit for many reasons having employees guranteeing that they will be there x number of days and do what their contracts state. Is that the blame for all of this? No but Stewart you bring up some valid points. A lot of people buy foreign because they think those cars will last forever and have better workmanship. What does that tell you? the truth! Americans know Americans and know we are in general lazy people.
Styling, well every manufacturer is guilt of that! Why do people drive cars like this?
(http://www.autocarparts.com/images/products/Honda/honda_element.jpg)
(http://pumpngo.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/honda_insight.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/90-93_Chevrolet_Lumina_APV.jpg/800px-90-93_Chevrolet_Lumina_APV.jpg)
(http://www.ridejudge.com/rides/00030308.jpg)
(http://surfingart.com.au/images/vwphotos/new-vw-beetle.jpg)
(http://www.markpascua.com/wp-content/smart-car.jpg)
(http://www.cars-show.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/scion-xb-500.jpg)
(http://www.davidrichert.com/50s%20Classic%20Camera/EDSEL.jpg)
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Vile, I agree with you on the styling of those. When I see something like those driving down the road I always think who is the person that goes to a car lot and looks at one of those and says to themselves "I'M NOT GOING HOME WITHOUT IT". I just recently had my other truck in the bodyshop some stupid old man hit it so his insurence had to give me a rental car it was a Kia POS suv it was the nastiest pea green looking thing so I figured that they were all bought by rental car companies cause there ain't no way somebody would buy one of these.
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I believe in a union to a small extent. My dad was the pres. of the Richmond chapter of his union in his job. People kinda voted him in because he spoke the way it is. He knew wrong, he said his mind. He cut through all the b.s. I do that myself at my work, but, i have to be careful, but, my supervisors know i speak the truth and see through the b.s. Unions have a place. Employers can and will do wrong concerning employees, whether it is working too many hours, going against the Federal Labor Standard Acts, or simple questions of granting vacations. Some unions even pay legal fees if they see that employers do wrong and a court case is in order. The employee will not be afraid to lose his/her job as well. Great. BUT, there is a point when a union can go too far. I think we see that in the UAW. Every other year it seems some sort of work stoppage is being forced upon GM. Knowing that GM doesn't have the revenue coming in, someone (the workers) need to be able to pull the reins on the union. If not, the union will break the company's back and therefore NO ONE will have a job tomorrow. Why do we allow unions to force our jobs overseas??
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Vile......I have a disturbing confession.......I like Edsels....will you guys forgive me? :-[
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Vile......I have a disturbing confession.......I like Edsels....will you guys forgive me? :-[
No! ;)
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What would Freud say about that?
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The new edsel
(http://www.automedia.com/NewCarBuyersGuide/photos/2006/Subaru/B9%20Tribeca/SUV/2006_Subaru_Tribeca_ext_1.jpg)
lol
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haha. nice.
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Subaru really has ugly down to a fine art. But they are good cars though.
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I believe enough people threw up in their mouths when Subaru came out with that ugly monster and I believe they changed it already. :D
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haha they have a lot of ugly cars.
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The Gremlins of today.
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I kinda like the Gremlin... now the Matador, ick, that was an ugly car.
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I kinda like the Gremlin... now the Matador, ick, that was an ugly car.
You're weird. :D AMX all the way!
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Actually, i dig the subaru; At least it is different compared to the other plastic on the market. Alfa Romeo also has a similar theme going on.
While i detest most modern styling offerings, it would probably be best to start a totally new thread; We should keep this one on GM
While searching for something unrelated on the net, i came across these two films which are eerie and basically summarize the discussion we're having. It's very eerie in that it could have been made last month and everything fits. GM management should have viewed these films.
There is a line in the first segment that basically summarizes everything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg3PzgK-usk&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byzzrW4X2Bo&feature=channel
Note: the baltimore factory in the first segment was demolished last year and already warehouse and office space has gone up.
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OK, so saturn is finished. i missed that one.
Technically, the camaro is still not being produced, so there is an outside chance it will NEVER be produced.
P.S. No more SS models for chevrolet; This is straight from gm managment.
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no more SS's? now I have nothing left to shoot for in life ;D That does suck since the performance cars were just getting good in the last few years.
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OK, to clarify: They did say that if business picks up or something to that effect, that the SS series could be re-activated. Also, pre-existing SS models will continue to be produced until the particular model runs its "life span." I.e., impala, colorado etc.
Also no more "V" serieses for cadillac. Not that anyone gives a crap.
Also, just when i was starting to like saturn. But if they were not turning a profit, then i guess this has to be.
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So, it looks like Pontiac is gone; i can't confirm this 100%, but it's more than 50%. i'm not happy about this---i'm just reporting the news. i think we'll find out officially tomorrow.
So, i was right about that one.
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Yep Pontiac is going to be gone. :( The bailout was a huge mistake. I am totally against these bailouts. If a company is looking at bankruptcy then so be it. Why reward poor business with bailouts. UAW should be gone as should all unions in this day and age. We have enough labor laws to protect the workers without having unions driving up prices and companies out of business. Anyone that owns an import is also to blame. I have only had one non-american made vehicle in my life and that was given to me. I always buy american even if it costs more because our money should stay here. People who buy hondas or toyotas are scum in our country. Dipstick I mean Obama should cease foriegn car imports or at the very least put a quota on it. Isn't it funny how American products are highly regarded in every other country but the US.
I have one prediction about GM. I predict GM will be managed by the US government in the near future.
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I have one prediction about GM. I predict GM will be managed by the US government in the near future.
Already is, the Government fired the CEO. I would say that is running it.
I agree with everything Russ says, but I believe the only way GM will make it is to thin down to just Cheverolet and Cadillac. I hear they are trying to keep GMC, that is brain dead. In Lexington Ky, you can buy a Chevrolet or a GMC(same truck) from two different dealers that are less than 1 mile apart. Someone try to explain how that is good business.
As far as the unions go, Fiat would be interested in buying Dodge if it wasn't for the union. So intstead now they get to go into bankrupcy where you and me can responsible for all of the union expenses.
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Buy American i agree with when u can its getting harder to do but u can when it comes to ur trucks and cars. I also seen somewhere that we only export a small number of vehicles over seas but we import alot to me it seems we should not allow such a big difference. GM needs more than just us to get out of this mess they have to sell worldwide. As far as the union goes i live in a right to work state a local plant a few years back went on strike they hired all new people and 3 months later running at full power like nothing happened it was a mess for a small town and tore apart alot of people who sided with this person or that one but at the same time it was one of the best paying jobs here because of the union.
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I love how the government can't manage it's own money, but thinks it can manage the money for gm.... Let's see they fired gm's ceo for doing what they have been doing for decades..... so lets see.....hmmmm.....
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It IS official-----pontiac is finished. :'(
STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES.
What i don't get is buick gmc and pontiac were, for all practical purposes basically one brand as of recently. Since most pontiacs were rebadged, i don't see how this cost any significant amt of money? The cars got shipped to the same dealership, so no added expense there.
2) why is lame buick continuing? Seriously, does anyone here actually give a crap about current buick?
One of my predictions(i made it on the first page) has come true but i'm really not happy about this; i may start building my own cars.
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i just went back to look at my actual predictions----and the very first one was i predicted pontiac would buy the farm. This was back in december.
Corvette is next. Just watch.
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Most Chevrolet dealers are not Pontiac or Buick dealers anymore, so GM is supporting the various dealerships sometimes many in the same town while the cars are essentially the same car. I never understood the Pontiac-Buick-Oldsmobile-Saturn-GMC deal to begin with, why have two dealers selling the same stuff competeing against each other, beating each others profit margins down. GM has 2 brands that can survive, Chevrolet and Cadillac. Corvette's are part of Chevrolet. JMHO
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Corvette is next. Just watch.
There is no shortage of private firms that would gladly pick up the Corvette. So it's possible GM might sell it, but it will never die out. But if they did sell it, they would lose half their reason for existing, since the Corvette and Silverado are the only two things that make GM worth saving, LOL.
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The Corvette is the flagship of GM, I seriously doubt it will be going anywhere anytime soon. Same goes for their pickups. I don't think they will do it, but I would ditch the GMC line or the Chevrolet line of pickups and just have one, no reason to compete with yourself.
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Oh, it will go.
Also, you may think GMc is safe, but it's not. i think gmc will be leaving us also.
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Monday was not a good day for me;
i got physically sick, then sad, then depressed all over the news. (not to mention my truck still is not running.)
Two days ago was a day that proves gm managment is gutless, spineless, and brainless.
John DeLorean(though he had his problems) and Bill Mitchell would have NEVER allowed this to happen.
i bid you all goodnight and goodluck.
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Two days ago was a day that proves gm managment is gutless, spineless, and brainless.
GM's management is the government, and the current version is gutless, spineless and brainless.
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My view is that GM and all major car makers will obviously start to invest in more electric cars, and also hydrogen fuel cell technology (which is the only real alternative as it doesn't require hours of charging and can be fuelled similar to a gasoline vehicle) BUT they will always make gasoline powered engines, and the V8 will never die out. There will always be people (like us on this site) that are passionate enough to create a market.
Also if the demand for gasoline/diesel goes down, then the price should follow. Good news.
I think in the future people will drive 'alternative fuelled' vehicles to commute, but enthusiasts will still have gasoline powered vehicles in the garage.
And I agree with the comments about the ridiculous push for electric vehicles - where do these 'do gooders' think the MAJORITY of electricity comes from. Here in the UK oil and coal powered power stations are still predominant.
As far as GM is concerned I reckon it'll get through all this, and I hope so. GM is one of the most impressive symbols of American success around the world and it can't be let to die.
I do agree though, that they should streamline. They're not serious about the Saturn Astra - otherwise it'd be badged a Chevy. This way they can get rid of it if it doesn't succeed imo.
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Here are my opinions on all your opinions. Dont take mine seriously. You know what they say about opinions... ;D
Since we're coming up on the new year, i figured this would be an appropriate time to discuss our favorite automaker.
Predictions (and in a few months you can see if i was right or not):
Not nessesarily in order and i don't nessesarily agree with the following predictions:
1) Pontiac gone.
Yeah, probly so. I don't care, they won't be missed. The trans am was the only car they had that i liked, and it died long ago. They already stated numerous times that it wasnt coming back. And all those new GTO wannabees are just jazzed up Grand Am's. If they had done like dodge did with their new challenger i would have been sad to see pontiac go but as of now, eh who cares.
2) no more GMC
I hope GMC gets to stay. I like their slightly different styling that they have for some of the front ends. But whatever is best for the company is what they should do i guess.
3) Corvette gone or moved to buick (even though corvette is profitable) The corvette is already a completely separate brand in japan. In this case, a wealthy person(s) will buy corvette name, tooling and factory. But it just won't be the same.
I certainly hope the vet doesn't become so kinda buick. I will laugh at and shun anyone who i see driving a buick corvett. Better to just let it croak and they bring it back to life in 20 years.
4) Camaro discontinued after one model year.
If they have to do this i hope they just push it back a few more years until they can give it a full run. I love all the american muscle cars such as Camaro, Mustang, the dead TA and the new Challenger.
5) Malibu and impala morphed into one car, possibly to be called impala.
Not real sure about that. I would say more likely one or the other would just be canceled.
6) Volt flops.
Yeah i really do hope the volt flops. GM (and all the rest) have already proven their ability to completely render the gas powered commuter car/family sedan, obsolete. They just choose not to for whatever reason. Likely they are in league with big oil, in this way. In california a few years back, they were forced by law to rent out 300 electric cars for 1 year. The cars got 250 miles per charge. To charge the battery fully, it cost 4 dollars. When they fought the law and won, they collected every last one of the cars once the lease was up. The volt, in comparison, is a laughable piece of dog...poop.
7) Chevy will continue to build trucks, but the styling gets worse and more bizarre.
LOL, yeah, it has been getting more and more bizzare as of late. But you know what, i would still own each one if i could as i am sure they are all good trucks. But yeah the new ones... i wonder if they had to ask Ford's permission to use their front end design lol.
8) New cruise successful, but they're saying they can't make a profit on small cars.
Havn't heard anything about this car yet.
9) Cadillac stays, but who cares.
Yeah who cares.
10) GM will try to use and/or collaborate with ford with drivetrains---engines and/or transmission.
I dont know why this is, but they if they are considering it then there must be some advantage to get out of it. Again, whatever keeps them alive. We the little man consumer, NEED the competition to keep prices and quality anywhere close to reasonable.
11) GM will try to use and/or collaborate with toyota with drivetrains and carlines. They already do it now to a lesser extent with the cobalt which is a rebadged corolla in japan.
Excellent idea. Toyota is by far the most competent automaker in the industry. If they are willing to give away their secrets to success, i would jump on it. GM, Ford, and Crysler all whine and complain that they must outsource and build new factories in lesser countries so that they can get more slave-like labor in order to still make money. Yet Toyota is building new factories INSIDE the US, AND is turning a profit. So yeah they got a few things to learn. I hope they bring a notepad and a pencil for taking notes when they go see toyota.
12) Gm still wants to combine with chrysler. It's like an alcoholic that knows drinking is bad, but just can't keep away from the bottle.............
My least favorite of the big 3 is Crysler. They have the lowest reliability rate of the big 3. I hope they dont do this.
13) Buick gets lamer than it already is. (actually, i feel buick is ok, it's just not as good as before which is why i'm using the term "lame.")
Buick is for old blue hair's. So yeah i agree, pretty lame lol. They need to bring back the grand national.
14) no more RWD cars for Gm except XLR, but this won't last either.
Wouldn't bother me any. Front wheel drive is better in bad weather conditions for family sedans/commuters anyway. Course i do hope they get to keep the vette and the camaro, which would obviously need to be RWD lol.
More as i think of them. Feel free to add.
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Well, i guess the bright side is that Pontiac, technically, is not dead yet---that won't happen until christmas next yr. Alot could happen between now and then. You just never know with GM these days.
i wonder where are the Chinese during all this? i suspect they are "waiting in the wings" anyalizing all this.
Detroit has top of the world engineering(except chysler); There's no problem there. And there's no question there. But they have no cash.
The Chinese lack mechanical expertise and engineering; They want it and need it. And they have tons of cash.
Do we see a possible marriage here?
2) Yes skunk, i agree with you; i believe if the last GTO was retro-styled like a 64-67 version, we wouldn't be having this conversion about pontiac right now. Or not even that---if it was just styled better in general. It did look very similar to a Grand Prix not there was anything wrong with that. But it just wasn't a hit with performance car buyers.
3) As far as i'm concerned, the corvette is already getting diluted and losing it's "magic"----it shares chasssises with the XLR. The Corvette never shares a chassis with anyone(except the 52 fleetmaster sedan, but that's different and ok since it was just starting off back then). If it does get bought off by a private investor, it won't be the same.
i'm pretty sure the Corvette will be leaving us.
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The Corvette it diluted only because of the sharing of the chassis? It is on top of its game right now. The XLR is nowhere near what a Vette is. The XLR will get dropped, they aren't selling many of them at all. An XLR cost the same as a Z06, why would anyone buy one when they can get basically the same car (minus the boxy look) for $30K lesss. I don't think the Corvette is going anywhere, it is GMs Flagship, they were going to ax it years ago and it didnt get it.
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Indeed I agree, the Vette is now the best it's ever been. At last it doesn't have leaf springs at the rear!!!
The ZR1 has 640hp!! That's Lamborghini and Ferrari territory.
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Always loved corvettes. Hoping to personally get a vette once the truck is done. DId anyone see the el camino is comming back for 2010? Its based upon the pontiac G8. It looks weird i personally like the older ones but eh i guess its all about someones personnal taste..
thanks
pat
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As much as Id like to see the el camino return ( especially if they build it like the G8) I dont see it. They have similar versions in Mexico that look alot like the Luminas (yuk) but here, the Colorado and Canyon fill that nich in the small truck catergory. The Elcamino was phased out in my opinion because you could do the same thing with an S-10. Tho not as cool. (once again, my opinion only)
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1) i repeat: THE CORVETTE MUST NEVER SHARE A CHASSIS WITH ANY OTHER VEHICLE PERIOD. Once you do that, you take away the "magic," the mystique, the exclusivity of the corvette.
So, this is one strike against the corvette.
Every other gm vehicle can be, and has been, duplicated among other gm divisions---that's ok.
2) 80stepside, where did you hear that the elcamino is coming back? i don't think this is a good idea right now. And also like choptop says the truck really is unnessesary as having the colorado is basically duplication.
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A vehicle that we would call an el camino is already in produstion in Australia as a Holden Model. So its not new, its just new here. Stewart, I wish we could sit down face to face and visit. I have to say I am a bit worried about you and your optomism,lol. Worrying about something you cant control takes you away from the things you can control. Hang in there my friend, it will all be ok in the end. Alot of these thing are coming to pass because someone got stupid financially. I feel for those who are loosing their jobs because of this, but hopefully someone will learn from it and not do it again. I dont feel sorry for any of the automakers. They made their bed, they can lay in it. I hate the fact that my tax dollars are paying for their stupidity. IF anybody needs a bailout, its those affected by this (the workers) Let the weak go under and spend the tax dollars to retrain and relocate if necassary the workers who are involved in this mess. That would be money well spent. I dont live in a $100,000 home, but I bet the ones benefiting from this bailout live in homes much more than that. If they havent saved enough to live off of, then thats their fault. I know the same could be said for the workers, but I doubt they live in such extravegant homes. I dont see why a family of 4 (average) needs a 5000 square foot home. If you have managed your finances properly and have one that big, ny hat and respect goes out to you. But, if you have such a home, and now cant pay for it, whose fault is that really.
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it is very depressing reading all this crap andwatching it all happen right before my eyes but we did it to ourselves. And it will be a few years before we get things straightened out. And to comment about unions, I am aan operating engineer i operate heavy equipment everyday and the stuff i see going on between big bosses ceos and superintendants on a day to day basis is to try and beat their way around the union ways to screw the workers, i see it everyday on my way to work. the Q Bridge in new haven is being build 90% non-union. a CT based union contractor had the winning bid for a long time and jodi rell our governor didnt like the idea of a union company doin gthe job she made them hold the bid for extended amount of monthsand they couldnt due to rising costs of steel. the project went back out to bid and 2 huge non-union companies won the bid for millions more. I don't get it and i see a crane operator running a crane one minute then getting out and doing something else another minute. meanwhile earning a very low wage at that. and some of the skills that these so called crane operators that are working non-union possess skills that shouldnt be used in running a piece of equipment like that. not to mention its a job that will last years long and te companies are from maine and massachusetts taking the jobs of connecticut people...just yesterday there was an article where people finally realized that we have out of state workers working in our state. nothign will be done about it.
as for american vehicles, I will always buy a "big 3" vehicle no matter what the cost. a small handful o fmy friends are the same way. and to me that is the only way we will keep this economy going. but with so many people unemployed at the moment peopel wont be buying that many cars anyway.
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I'm not going to lie I wish I was in a union getting paid ridiculous amounts of money to do hardly anything. Unions had their place in our society many years ago. Those days are long gone for now. If you are a union member you will be biased towards the unions. But seriously think about how much cheaper American made products would be in cost without unions driving the price up. As far as out of state workers go that is what a free country is all about. Oh and just to set the record straight there are plenty of CT residents working here in MA and have been all along. If unions where eliminated things would be better off overall for the whole country not just the few who happen to belong to a union. Imagine someone chipping in and doing more than his title calls for, oops sorry that's not the union way. The union is just another beauracracy that serves only itself and nothing else. The union brought us weekends, holidays and vacations in a time when men worked in excess of 60 hr weeks every week. Funny to survive a non union member has to work 60 hr weeks to afford all the union related products. So no I'm sorry unions have to go and union members need to come back down to reality.
Personally I have not bought a new car or truck for one reason. They are crap! They are built to be disposable like a bic lighter. When I smoked, I used a Zippo lighter. I'll stick with the older chevy trucks, thank you.
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I do understand where your coming from me only a few years into the union i grew up helping everyone out on a jobsite doing a little bit of everything. it took me a good solid 2 years of work to get used to do the whole "doing my own job" The company i had been working with the last 6 months was out of boston mass. Great guys to work with. But if unions werent there to fight for those holidays and vacations and stuff like that believe me not every business owner is a nice one. A lot that i've dealt with so far in my short life would and have pushed for worker longer days less weekends less holidays to get the jobs done because it comes right back down to the dollar. But there is a limit to where the unions should stop and what the unions do to GM is ridiculous. Most of those guys making the $27 an hour are making more than me i don't make big money for being a union guy but when it comes right down to it paying the pension health and welfare and all that other stuff my hourly pay is something to the sum of like $65 an hour. So realisticly I do get your point and I don't understand how jobs still get done union and stuff but it works.
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We have labor laws that take care of a lot of things the unions used to do. I wonder how much better our schools would be if we weren't paying so much to get our roads fixed. I wonder how much better the roads would be too. How much would a Corvette cost if where made by non union people making normal everyday wages? How much would any American made car cost if every employee was not in the union and making average money? I'm going to guess 16.5% less. I'm basing that on the old 3 equal parts 1)labor 2)parts and 3)profit. Since the average union member makes double the average non union member.
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well lets see not all roads are all fixed by union companies. it usually goes out to bid and whomever has the lowest bid usually gets the contract. and most of the time the union company wins the bid because they have a lower price...i know in CT its like that tons of work goes to O&G and they are a very large union company. so why if they cost so much more to employ do they win bids over non-union companies? And I also know that a lot of schools being built in our state usually gets awarded to union companies again because they are the lowest bidder. So not all union stuff is bad.
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Well, Exilous it's not quite like you are seeing it. Most states Ct included have a law on the books concerning "prevailing wage" the way it works is this, if you are doing construction work for the state then you must pay your employees at the "prevailing wage" (Union Scale) So if Bob owns an electrical company and pays his guys $20 per hour, if they get on a government job then he might have to pay them $40, so all of the guys on government work are getting paid top wages from your taxes. Here's the link to CT's law, but most states are very similar or equally dumb.
http://www.ctdol.state.ct.us/wgwkstnd/prevailing-rates/3153smry.htm
Please hurry up with some more government in my life. :o
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Well, Exilous it's not quite like you are seeing it. Most states Ct included have a law on the books concerning "prevailing wage"...
To piggy-back on this argument, this is why it costs so much to build and maintain roads and infrastructure. It makes no sense when you consider the scenario for what it really is: My company can find workers that do excellent work for $20/hr, but because some strong-arm union somewhere makes my competitor pay their people $40/hr, my guys get to earn $40/hr while working on a state project. This makes no difference to my financial situation, as I already bid the contract at the $40/hr labor rate because I knew the job was prevailing wage.
So who loses? You and me, and our kids.
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A vehicle that we would call an el camino is already in produstion in Australia as a Holden Model. So its not new, its just new here.
And GM has learned nothing despite being on the brink of collapse. The last import from the Australia Holden line was the GTO (badged in AU as the Monaro), and it was a flop. This is why GM is failing, repeating the same mistakes over and over. They already had the el-camino back in production, it was called the SSR. And it was a heavy, underpowered, non-practical, and insanely overpriced niche vehicle. Who makes these decisions?
And don't get me going on ugly. Chevy started that ball rolling 20+ years ago with the Lumina APV (think Dustbuster!) and Pontiac kept the same ball rolling almost 10 years ago with the Aztec.
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Well 1HI4X4 I wasn't going to get into all that because I figured it was common knowledge. Exilous it is true about prevailing wage and in fact it is also a federal law which means all federal jobs must pay prevailing wage. Prevailing wage means the highest wage known in that area for that job. The last thing any of us need is a 21 yr old kid telling us how the unions are the best way to go. If I was in a union I'd be all for them too but I wouldn't preach about how it sucks to see non union people getting work. I have seen more than one company go bankrupt over the years because of the union's unreasonable demands. You weren't alive when the teamsters went on strike and were shooting at any independant trucker that was working. You also weren't alive to see virtually every mob boss, a leader of one union or the other. No matter how you look at it today unions are bad for business and our ecomony. Not that someday in the future they won't be needed again but until they are they really should be done away with. Exilous, I'm not trying to be condecending towards you so please don't take it that way. I just think your statements are wrong and have explained how and why. Nothing personal for real.
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...I'll stick with the older chevy trucks, thank you.
older Chevy trucks= Union Made
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Don't all Chevy trucks?
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Choptop:
My optimism?
We are living in a world where KIA still exists, yet pontiac is gone. There is something seriously wrong with this world.
i mean KIA for freaksake!
Much more on this later; i am very disturbed, disillusioned, and angry over this whole recent turn of events.
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...I'll stick with the older chevy trucks, thank you.
older Chevy trucks= Union Made
Mines not union made anymore..... Now it's a privately constucted vehicle. ;D
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Choptop:
My optimism?
We are living in a world where KIA still exists, yet pontiac is gone. There is something seriously wrong with this world.
I was being somewhat sarcastic. I. too, and disturbed on what they are doing with the governemt, I do vote on items when I have the oppurtunity. My comment was made regaurding the auto industry. I fail to see how the disappearence of Pontiac while Kia exists effects me. They government is messing enough things up, the auto industry is the least of my concerns. If they cant pull themselves out, then they can sink. No one is here helping the oil industry out. We have drilling rigs stacked everywhere, people losing their homes, cars, working at places at a fraction of the pay they used to get. This isnt because the oil companies spent too much money on private jets, and 1/2 million dollar homes, this is because the Obama idiots are sucking up to foreign counties who hate us, and wont allow us to go to work because saving trees and killing babies is the way to go now. How can I give a crap about automakers failing, when there isnt many people who can buy them in the first place. From what I see, the auto industry's problems are self inflicted. So what, you made your bed, you lay in it. The oilfeild industry is being destroyed, and no one is even pointing it out. How does this effect the rest of the country? Lets put it this way, I paid over $20000 in taxes last year. At this point on the books this year, I doubt I'll be anywhere near 1/4 of that. I am a small company, the drilling companies probably pay that weekly. If the drilling companies arent working, how does the government expect to get the money to payback this loan the government got. By raising your taxes.
My point about being sarcasticsally optimistic, is worrying isnt going to fix the issue. It is going to make you miserable . DO your part and vote when you have the oppurtunity, write your stat representative with concerns, but I dont see where the auto industry woes, Pontiac leaving while Kia stays is worth a second of time from someone like yourself. I mean that respectfully, as I have vast respect for you.They are the ones that messed it up, let them sink. If you couldnt make your house payment, do you think they would be concerned about you. No way. With the problems you have had with your truck, did any of the big three come help you any?? NO .I just hate to see someone waste their time and get sick over a bunch of idiots that need to pay the price for their stupidity. Your a good man, and they dont deserve your time.
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Great post Choptop, As bad as I hate to admit it, if I needed a new car/truck today Ford would get my business. They are the only one out there that is not locked onto the government, and the profits stay here in the USA.
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OK, my newest prediction---and one that will come true:
GM FINISHED.
i wish you all good luck.
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Stewart, you say that like you're leaving us. You cant do that, we need all the help we can get. GM may be done, but the trucks we love arent.
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Well, spiritually part of me is leaving; Look at the world. We are going down the crapper.
2) i think what's going to happen is we will continue to operate/maintain our trucks as long as we are physically able; And then, some of you/us have children and/or grandchildren and if they are interested will continue. And/or we will continue to operate/maintain our trucks until aftermarket parts are no longer available.
Everyone laughed at me when i said Ross Perot should be the next president; Well look at you now. Ross Perot would have NEVER EVER allowed any of this BS to happen. The american people have screwed themselves.
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1. Change is the only constant.
2. Every generation comes to the conclusion that things are the worse they've ever been and we're going to he|| in a hand-basket.
Advice: Don't look back. Keep moving or you'll be covered up. Surround yourself with positive people.
Me, I am looking for ZZ454 crates to be sold at rock bottom prices ;D
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Me, I am looking for ZZ454 crates to be sold at rock bottom prices ;D
I hadn't thought of that. I need to start saving up. When GM goes under, I'm gonna be able to snag a brand new GMPP LS7 crate for $3,000. ;D
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I dont think GM will disappear. I mean look at Crysler. They simply filed bankruptcy and moved on. I think GM should do that. Maybe they will. Sure Fiat may take over crysler. At least they will still be around.
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NO GM = NO LIFE
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Gm is getting very bad
http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/14/news/companies/gm_dealers/index.htm?postversion=2009051416
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Where is Ford in all this? I know they are hurting, but of the big three i think they are the best off in the current economy.
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NO GM = NO LIFE
Why do you work there or something?
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i think the best thing to do at this point is to discuss how to save pontiac; Because this really shouldn't be happening. It is a supreme tragedy. There is talk that gm may sell pontiac to a dealer in michigan. The main thing is technically, as we speak, pontiac is not officially finished yet.
2) My next prediction is that GM will go out of business.
Therefore we should discuss:
a) what caused the mess.
b) what can be done about it.
i think the more we talk about it and brainstorm then eventually the idiots in charge may get wind of it.
i don't have time right now to get whole-hog into it, but hopefully you do?
P.S. Here's a start---i need strict explaination why cutting a brand and/or cutting dealers saves money?
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P.S. Here's a start---i need strict explaination why cutting a brand and/or cutting dealers saves money?
I'll play along, it takes support from the factory in parts, tooling, and ad budget to keep a dealership going. It also competes against the other brands at GM, there are only so many cars going to be sold, why compete against yourself? If the market is only supporting "X" number of cars then someone has to reduce the quantity that is being manufactured. What really chaps me is the method that determined whether a dealer got the ax or not, seems to be politically driven.
As far as what brought them down in the first place, you have to look at retired employee benefits. Somewhere around $1,100 per car in retired employee benefits that puts you in a pretty big disadvantage when it come to a price point on an automobile.
What will be interesting is how long the unions hold on to their share of the ownership(stocks), if the union starts to immediately dumping their stock, then I would say GM is done. The Unions are closer to this than any financial analyst.
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P.S. Here's a start---i need strict explaination why cutting a brand and/or cutting dealers saves money?
As far as what brought them down in the first place, you have to look at retired employee benefits. Somewhere around $1,100 per car in retired employee benefits that puts you in a pretty big disadvantage when it come to a price point on an automobile.
And then look at them being the aging dinosaur that they are - too big and too slow to react quick enough to shifting market demand. And it's still happening. I saw a Cadillac ad the other day for an all-new Escalade Hybrid... WHAT????? Have you learned nothing in the last 18 months. Big SUVs are out, fuel savings and penny-pinching and reduction in overall comsumption of raw goods are in. Oh wait, it's a hybrid that delivers unparalleled fuel economy of 20mpg city and 21 mpg highway (straight from the Cadillac website). At a reasonable cost of $71,000, I'm going to put an order on one today. ::) They just don't get it.
And they bring Bob Lutz back out of retirement to drive the final nail in the coffin. He's the one behind the disgrace-to-engineering and poorly designed vehicles of the 2000s, and he's back in charge.
According to Wikipedia (consider the source...):
"While at General Motors, Lutz championed the import of the Holden Monaro to the United States as the Pontiac GTO. Other cars such as the Cadillac Sixteen Concept; Saturn Sky and Pontiac Solstice; Pontiac G8; Chevrolet Malibu; Cadillac CTS; Buick Enclave; Cadillac Converj Concept; Cadillac CTS Coupe Concept; Chevrolet Camaro Concept; Chevrolet Camaro (production version); Chevy Beat, Groove and Trax Concept Studies; and 2010 Buick Lacrosse, Chevrolet Equinox, and Cadillac SRX are said to be Lutz initiatives."
He's also the genius behind the Ford import brand Merkur in the 80s, which was a fast 4-year flop.
"the automaker's marketing, advertising, and communications teams will report to Lutz in an effort to develop a more consistent message and results". The Buick Lacrosse was marketed heavily in Canada despite it's very name being Canadian-slang for "playing with yourself". They have a consistent message alright - Lutz drove GM to the brink of the abyss, over the edge, and now has his foot on the accelerator all the way to the bottom. I guess he figures if he drives GM into the ground hard enough, the pieces will be too small to bother picking up.
I had hope for GM rebuilding into a successful company until I heard they put him back in charge.
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Stewart, I agree with you on this:
Everyone laughed at me when i said Ross Perot should be the next president; Well look at you now. Ross Perot would have NEVER EVER allowed any of this BS to happen.
This is the problem, Ross Perot wouldn't get elected in the US under "our" new way of thinking, yes he would get many votes from the average Blue collar worker, but there are too many "along for the ride" people that would nudge him out...look where we're at & where we've been in the last 20 years. He will go down in history as the "crack pot" that ran for president, but he never really had a chance to win, which leads us to your second part:The american people have screwed themselves.
This is the reason he wouldn't be elected, generally Americans don't want hold a job & be responsible for what they do, Period! I don't like to look at it that way or generalize like that, but it is reality.
After another 10 years or so going downhill, more MANUFACTURING jobs gone overseas, crime rate up even higher than now, more foreclosers & repos, then & only then will the general population start to see the need for a Radical Change (Ross Perot) however just when almost enough people see it this way...just enough "new voters" will show up at the poles to keep the us in the muck, look what happened in the last election. That's all, Lorne
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1) But the vast majority of pontiac dealers are, and have been for quite a while, combined with buick/gmc. How does eliminating the brand from a pre-existing setup save money? To me, it seems like eliminating the Big Mac from the McDonalds's menu-----it's already there along with 11 other menu items, so how does it save money?
a) Yes, i agree about the ad budget---that would save money. But, since pontiac is going to be canned why do they keep advertising? Along with Saturn; i went to Roosevelt field mall last week and there were saturns parked inside and at the food court there were Saturn flyers.
b) Pontiac sold at least 250,000 units the last model yr with signs of increasing sales demand. Not decreasing sales demand.
2) i don't think too big and slow is/was the problem; i feel stupidity is the problem.
a) lutz needs to go permanently.
b) RE: lacrosse. i didn't think canadian people even had sex. Seriously.
c) welburn needs to go too; i don't like him, although some cadillac rear end styling is ok. But he still needs to go---NOW.
My next prediction as of july 09 is that GMPP will be cancelled and the small block chevy will cease to be produced.
3) But i think right now the best thing to do is to try to find out how to save pontiac.
a) i know there is a petition out there; Will try to provide the link.
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i just thought of something; Since we, the people technically own gm, then we the people should demand that pontiac stays. We gave 50 billion so far? This is OUR money.
Let's figure out how to do this. Seriously---this is too important.
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Why should pontiac stay? They died in 1970. The only decent cars they've offered in 39 years, they didn't make. Maybe we should just move Holden to the US.
And as far as the SBC disappearing from GMPP catalog (which I don't think will happen for a really LOOOOONG time), let it disappear. Except for a used block, most parts that used to build performance SBCs are aftermarket anyways.
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Well, i would have to disagree that pontiac "died" in 70 or in 81 (after they didn't make their own v-8's anymore), but that's a subject for another thread.
2) Are you saying that the "new" crate 350 (and other crates) are really a remanufactured engine using a core?
3) But more importantly right now, how can we enact legislation to keep pontiac? This is very important, and remember---it's our company, our money, and our government. We can do this.
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I don't understand what Pontiac brings to the table? What is Pontiac? Every model they have is just a rebadge of another GM product. What GM needs to do is slim down into two brands, Chevrolet, and Cadillac. Why are they out there trying to compete against themselves with the other brands? Supporting dealerships that are across the road from each other? Every dealership that sells Chevrolet should also have Cadillac. If this was your personal money(and it is) you wouldn't allow the waste in duplicate services.
The bottom line is only "X" amount of cars are going to be sold this year, so why do you want to slice up that market into several brands that all require a support system that is a drain on the parent company?
The big three(2 that are ours) need to learn a hard lesson in efficiency, something they haven't been since the 40's-50's.
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cmon! They build excitement!
(http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/pontiac-21.jpg)
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1) And furthermore i'm shocked that you, an oldsmobile fan, would want pontiac to go away; As you are well aware buick olds and pontiac were grouped together for a long time. The fact that you could care less about the SBC, however, doesn't surprise me---again because your into oldsmobile. It's still GM though and that's why i support BOP, Cad and GMC even though i'm primarly a chevy person.
2) But pontiac has always (at least since the 50's) been a rebadge of another gm product! Actually ALL gm products are rebadges of another gm product! (except for a few---i.e., corvette etc.)
a) If this really was a waste of $$$, GM would have pulled the plug on this formula long ago.
b) i feel it's all about sales (but it probably really isn't)----the more, the merrier regardless of what brand is on the fender.
c) We have to remember that all the gm carlines are built in the same factory with the same workers. For example the chevy c-10 and gmc c-15 were built in the same factory using the same parts. Therefore i feel/surmise that the small cosmetic/front end/rear end differences are minimal in terms of cost.
Yes, there is going to be an advertising cost that might not be there if there was only one brand of a chassis line, but then again maybe not.
3) Go ahead and make fun, but the J-2000/sunbird etc. was and is a good car; i speak from experience. i especially dig the firebird front end. That's what makes pontiac awesome.
a) i don't think 150hp and convertable options while getting 30mpg are anything to laugh at.
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I didn't read every page, but my Website took a tour of the Vette
plant in March of 09 and the XLR is history. (They told us on Tour)
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the J-2000/sunbird etc. was and is a good car; i speak from experience.
I'll tell you as I am speaking from experience that car was a clunker and an under powered pile of junk. I was a GM tech and worked on many. Blow by, oil leaks, broken nylon timing gears, and bad cv joints on practically every single one of them that made it that far. Not to mention it's quite ridiculous in the looks department. Pontiac has put out some decent cars just like every manufacturer has but as you may have inadvertently pointed out Stewart, it's just a badge. It's a GM product. What's the difference if it says Pontiac or Buick or Chevrolet at this point? It's pretty much all the same junk underneath it's skin.
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1) correction: Even the corvette and xlr share a chassis (this in itself is a mistake). So EVERY gm car is a duplicate.
a) if pontiac really were making their own cars and not having to share chassises, then i could see where it would be "wasting" money. But this is clearly not the case.
2) i have 280,000 miles on a cavalier(same as sunbird)---original engine and trans thank you very much.
a)i would have to say that almost any car after a while leaks some oil?
b) timing gears go
c) i just had my cv joints replaced----it happens on fwd cars eventually?
d) Again, i don't think 150 hp in a 2700 lbs car is exa........never mind.
But the bottom line to all this is we need pontiac.
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Stewart, I had 3 cavaliers over the years and all of them had the 2.0 or 2.2 chevy 4cyl engines. They all 3 were also very good cars. I had an 84, a 89, and a 98. All of the sunbirds and j2000s I ever looked at had the crappy daihatsu made 4 cyl. Maybe that is the engine vile is talking about.
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1) ok i know that the sunbird/2000 had a different engine, at least initially. But other than that and when they switched to chevy power, i don't think there can be any question as far as reliability is concerned.
But more importantly as far as the "ridiculous" styling goes, i'm sure millions of chinese consumers would disagree with you and would gobble it up. Gm needs to wake up and realize this.
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You know millions of chinese people eh? :lol You sure you're sure?
Why are we talking about what chinese people want to gobble up and why do they want Pontiac J2000's?
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You know millions of chinese people eh? :lol You sure you're sure?
Why are we talking about what chinese people want to gobble up and why do they want Pontiac J2000's?
So do you really think that the current buicks actually look better than the above example of the j2000, which really, is not a bad looking car come on.
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The answer is yes, the J2000 has to be right there with the Pacer when it comes to styling. I still don't understand why keeping Pontiac is so important. Like I said above I think GM should slim down into 2 brands, and both should be available at all GM dealerships.
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Hey. I happen to like my 07 Buick Lucerne. (OK so it's an old people car- i'm an old people)
(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/Dnstclr/1362b05f.jpg)
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Hey. I happen to like my 07 Buick Lucerne. (OK so it's an old people car- i'm an old people)
(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd22/Dnstclr/1362b05f.jpg)
Not knocking your Lucerne, but it looks a heck of a lot like this Malibu:
(http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/chevrolet_100166871_m.jpg)
Therefore i feel/surmise that the small cosmetic/front end/rear end differences are minimal in terms of cost.
This illustrates the big problem with GMs overall corporate structure and wasting money on supporting "competing" dealerships and the money wasted on re-tooling to produce essentially the same car 2-4 times over. I don't care how little it costs for "the small cosmetic differences" - your company is failing so you make the cuts necessary to survive. They saw the writing on the wall years ago when they finally axed Oldsmobile. They should have done the same to Buick, Pontiac, and GMC at the same time, but they were too stupid to do so.
Ford woke up and stopped making Lincoln and Ford models compete - very few models have cousins across the table now. Chrysler finally got the memo and did the same and axed the Plymouth badge as well as some of the competing Dodge/Chrysler models (remember the Dodge Neon and the Plymouth Breeze? how about the Caravan and the Voyager - same cars, different badge).
GM deserves the mess they're in.
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So if having multiple twins was so bad, then why did GM do it for over 55 years?
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So if having multiple twins was so bad, then why did GM do it for over 55 years?
Because some loyal customers buy on brand loyalty alone, car after car, and GM relied on this to keep selling vehicles. They nurtured this business model until it became essential to their survival. I know lots of guys who would buy a GMC, but wouldn't touch the exact same Chevy truck because they thought they were "junk". GM played each brand against each other for years. But counting on brand loyalty will only get you so far.
Now look at the pickle they've put themselves in: They've lost market share and need to get lean but they can't for fear of alienating "brand" customers when they need them the most. There were lots of hard feeling after Olds was dropped, and I know it's the same "counter culture" of owners that has kept Saturn going. I've owned 2 Saturns, I know first hand how fanatic some owners are. I heard a lot of online chatter akin to "I'll never buy another GM if they axe Saturn." I stopped buying them when GM officially took Saturn under it's corporate wing sometime in the early 2000s and when the re-design of the SL1/2 series was another corporate GM turd. My faith in Saturn was gone at that point. By the same token, GM can't drop GMC and push those customers over to Chevy trucks after all those years of "We are professional grade". They'll feel scorned and go buy a Ford or Dodge instead.
And remember, 55 years ago much of GMs competition didn't even exist. They've been losing market share every year for at least 30 years, and probably all 55. The titanic had a hole and was sinking all along. You can't sail along doing nothing and expect to be okay. Something had to give....
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So if having multiple twins was so bad, then why did GM do it for over 55 years?
Because some loyal customers buy on brand loyalty alone, car after car, and GM relied on this to keep selling vehicles. They nurtured this business model until it became essential to their survival. I know lots of guys who would buy a GMC, but wouldn't touch the exact same Chevy truck because they thought they were "junk". GM played each brand against each other for years. But counting on brand loyalty will only get you so far.
Now look at the pickle they've put themselves in: They've lost market share and need to get lean but they can't for fear of alienating "brand" customers when they need them the most. There were lots of hard feeling after Olds was dropped, and I know it's the same "counter culture" of owners that has kept Saturn going. I've owned 2 Saturns, I know first hand how fanatic some owners are. I heard a lot of online chatter akin to "I'll never buy another GM if they axe Saturn." I stopped buying them when GM officially took Saturn under it's corporate wing sometime in the early 2000s and when the re-design of the SL1/2 series was another corporate GM turd. My faith in Saturn was gone at that point. By the same token, GM can't drop GMC and push those customers over to Chevy trucks after all those years of "We are professional grade". They'll feel scorned and go buy a Ford or Dodge instead.
And remember, 55 years ago much of GMs competition didn't even exist. They've been losing market share every year for at least 30 years, and probably all 55. The titanic had a hole and was sinking all along. You can't sail along doing nothing and expect to be okay. Something had to give....
well said........................
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Toyota must be on their way out-
2010 Corolla looks a lot like the 2010 Camry.
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Heard Bob Lutz on CNBC radio yesterday. The new GM is doomed with him at the helm.
And I'm not talking about the Volt, it seems like it might do well in the hybrid market. But listen to his comments beyond the 3:00 mark in the video. They're talking about vehicles from Big 3 being traded-in for import vehicles. His short answer - "We're not seeing it. Our sales have spiked dramatically." Sure your sales are up, but the sales of other auto makers are up more. YOU"RE STILL LOSING MARKET SHARE!!!!!!!! According to Lutz, "we were pleasantly surprised with 20-point-something percent in July." Are you kidding? With 6 brands and a record-breaking stimulus for people to go out and buy cars (Chevy, GMC, Buick, Pontiac, Saturn, Cadillac), you're happy with only 20% of the market?? His comment of "I don't know where you're getting your data" was priceless. Don't worry Bob, keep putting your head a little further up your own backside. Great way to instill confidence in your investors and future customers.
Pompous $@*&#%^
Video is here:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1211947732&play=1 (http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1211947732&play=1)
Don, as for the Corolla and Camry looking a lot alike, I think I read somewhere the Corolla is being phased out in 2-3 years. The Camry of today seems much smaller than I remembered in the past, so I'm assuming they're looking at that model to be their new "small sedan". With the Scion line, they don't really need another micro car like the Corolla.
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1) Camry and accord are the new impala. This ain't 69, it's 2009.
a)i think one of the main problems is that too many people think just because i car is asian, it can do no wrong. If a car is american, it can do no right. At one of my jobs, i work with alot of teenagers. All they talk about is nissan, honda etc., because it's trendy. We discussed pontiac, but they really have no true understanding of who/what pontiac is.
What's going to change things and perception is styling. And not the lame styling welburn is ploping out. i'm talking about really good styling. This, and price cuts.
2) i agree gm is finished. My prediction is eventually gm will only produce drivetrains and other companies will purchase them to put in their cars----much like dell puts intel processors in their computers; i think cars are going to get like that-----assembled from pre-existing vendor parts. Totally different brands are going to use the same body shell. They allready look almost alike anyways----i think it's a trend.
3)
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I think the Volt is absolutely a JOKE. Tesla motors(very small car company) in California is building a car that can go 200+ miles on battery only, yet GM with billions of tax dollars can only get one to go 40 miles on battery only, I call BS on it. If you want to blow away the competitors then do it. build a battery only car that can go 200+ miles on a charge, look like a normal car, and sell it for normal money. You won't be able to produce them fast enough. Granted they aren't for everyone, but how many of our wives, mothers, children and yes even us can get by on a 200 mile range between charges? But we won't get a battery only car until the last drop of oil is sucked out of this rock we live on, and I'll bet you the farm on that one.
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The only real problem with electric/battery powered/hybrids etc. is range. We are so used to going 300 miles before a fillup and the fillup only takes a few minutes. How long does it take to recharge a battery to go 200miles?
One "solution" (do we even have a problem?) is diesel.
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How is diesel a solution? It comes from the same place gasoline does
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i meant diesel powered.
a) we would consume less actual fuel; diesel vs. gas
b) the diesel engine can run on other sources such as vegitable oil etc.
That's why i said "solution." i don't think there's a problem and really for most people gas is actually the cheapest way as a diesel car is automatically going to cost 2-4K more than a gasser.
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The only real problem with electric/battery powered/hybrids etc. is range. We are so used to going 300 miles before a fillup and the fillup only takes a few minutes. How long does it take to recharge a battery to go 200miles?
One "solution" (do we even have a problem?) is diesel.
FYI, I sell electric lift trucks for a living. So I know a little about this technology, Enersys is testing Lithium-Ion batteries in the field right now that will give a 200+ mile range and can be recharged in about 45 minutes. So the technology is coming if it doesn't get bought up by the government and the oil companies like it did in the early 90's. Like I said above it's not for everyone......... but my wife drives 35 miles round trip to work everyday, so she could run all week without recharging the batteries. As I have said someones going to do it, I wish it would be one of the big 3, but I'm affraid they are so deep into the governments pockets that they will be told to back off of it. Battery only cars do create a big problem with a reduction in fuel taxes, so don't look for it to be widespread anytime soon. They will be able to produce a battery only car for less than $30K when they get the battery figured out. You could get that kind of range out of a lead/acid battery right now, but it would be a big boom when you crash. The lithium-ion stuff is much safer and will take a recharge much faster so that is the way to go.
If you don't believe me on the early 90's statement then do a google search on "what killed the electric car" and enjoy the reading.
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i like electric technology and again, as you've pointed out, i think the only hangup is range and recharge time. And, like your wife i could probably go all week before recharging.
2) Well at least GM IS NOT changing the logo.
3) Actually, i think we've gotten a little off topic here and we should get back to how to save pontiac.
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At this point I don't think the Pontiac brand will be ressurrected, Stewart. The new GM doesn't include the car, period. it doesn't include Saturn, nor Hummer, nor Saab, nor the high priced UAW workers. All new hourly employees make $14 per hour with reduced benefits. All retirees are taking huge cuts in their benefits as well. As a retiree this November I won't have dental, eyecare, dependent health care coverage, and the health care that is offered has been cut drastically while it costs retirees more to carry the coverage. there are other things we lost too. But the point being- you should all feel better about the UAW losing a LOT of ground this year. Now that the wage is $10 lower than our competitors we should see an enormous increase in the sales and profitability of GM as the economy starts to turn around. I'm sure glad we've gotten to this point where people can finally stop blaming those #*#! UAW workers for all the ills of GM. :D
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The only way to save pontiac would be for people to buy a lot of pontiacs...and why would they do that when they can buy a similar or identical Buick or Chevrolet? GM has really neglected their small cars in the past which has hurt them today...Build a bad car (IE Cavalier or Alero/Malibu) and most likely they will buy something different in the future. Build a good small car and they will stay with you and perhaps graduate to a bigger car.
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But the point being- you should all feel better about the UAW losing a LOT of ground this year. Now that the wage is $10 lower than our competitors we should see an enormous increase in the sales and profitability of GM as the economy starts to turn around. :D
In some ways I feel sorry for the UAW workers as I know I would be pissed to lose benefits, but at the same time happy to still have a job even at a lower pay rate. Considering the labor restructuring and the cutting of some brands, I feel GM would be in a good position to capitalize on this next round of economic growth that should happen in the next 5 or 10 years, but I don't think they can accomplish this until Lutz is out of the picture. A new company out of bankruptcy needs new people at the helm. Younger people with fresh ideas and a forward thinking attitude.
GM needs to embrace alternative fuel and hydrogen technology. Top Gear did a piece on the Honda Clarity, their new hydrogen powered version of the accord. In their view, this will replace electric vehicles, and if you watch the vid you may be convinced as well. Once again, someone has beaten them to the punch. GM needs to jump in with both feet and come up something sharp and stylish that will attract the next generation of eco-friendly consumer before they get left behind AGAIN. When was the last PURE GM innovation? Something they had before ANYONE else? Not in my lifetime that I can remember, and I'm 32. They need to innovate to survive in today's car world, not just copy someone else's ideas. Here's the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffRagsjSpkE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffRagsjSpkE)
As an example, the CEO of my company came to my co-worker a few months ago and said:
"We're looking into using product X as a new technology in hot-mix asphalt. Do some testing and let us know if it looks like it will be feasible."
My co-worker asked (I was thinking it too): "Making that product could be tricky. What have others done in the past?"
The CEO's answer: "Can't we be the first to hit the market with a new technology?"
This is what makes companies successful. Taking risk to innovate, and accepting setbacks as part of that innovation. GM needs to do this, in a big way.
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Yeah. Innovation seems to be a foreign word to GM. I'm with you on the video on hydrogen cars. It's about time.
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So anyways, as the starter of this thread, this sort of makes me like i'm on the board of directors for this thread.
Therefore, i really think we should concentrate, for now, on how to keep pontiac.
1) Since we, technically, own gm, we should allow some rich guy (like the dealer in michigan) the buy part of pontiac. Under this proposal, the new owner buys 90% of pontiac and gm keeps 10% ownership. They, pontiac and new owners, get to use existing and/or future designs, parts, gm engineering, existing employees, market channels etc. So, in this case, the cars remain the same---they're still designed by gm. The only real difference is the new owner is basically paying for everything.
After a while, gm has the right to buy back the brand fully at a pre-determined price. Don't worry, the investor will make a tidy profit.
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Save pontiac, continued:
1) What do you think of my plan?
2) i also disagree that "pontiac has been gone since 1971" or "pontiac has been gone since 1979 or 1981 etc." What's under the hood DOES NOT make or not make a pontiac; Pontiac has always been about the package, the atmosphere, the styling. Pontiac has always been another gm car---with minor different styling since at least 1955 to now. And what's wrong with that?
(except fiero)
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I don't think anyone cares but you, about Pontiac. When I was a young "redneck car kid" I was profoundly a Chevrolet guy, I once refused to go on a double date because the other dude wanted to drive and he drove a Ford. Those days are long gone, and even more recently since GM has taken money from my pocket to survive I could care less if they ever sell another car. They haven't done anything inovative in years, the Volt is a joke atempt at all electric car. GM trucks today have no styling, the frame hangs down a foot below the body, they use the smallest tires out of all of the heavy trucks 3/4's and up. They are litterally a joke of a company compared to what they once were. If I needed a new car today I would go buy a Ford because they are the only domestic automaker that hasn't needed one penny of my money to stay afloat. Judging from the sales volume at Ford, I'm not the only American that feels this way. So if GM wants to survive they not only need to dump Pontiac, they need to dump GMC as well. But they aren't worried about surviving because the giverment has already shown they won't let them fail.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/economy-watch/2009/08/july_auto_sales_numbers_will_b.html
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i really don't car about gmc Pontiac and all them I'm going to take 1k of my paycheck and invest it in Chevrolet stocks. or i just might keep it for my self muhhhhhhahahahahaha
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1) What do you think of my plan?
Flawed because it includes GM in every aspect. If you get away from GM engineering, then maybe you can "build excitement" again. See my previous post of decades of lack of innovation. When they did have a creative idea (Saturn), they went and took a fledgling, moderately successful car company that actually had a shot at competing with the foreign cars and squashed it by taking it under the corporate wing. My wife owned 2 of them in the 90's, and for $8500 for the SL1 and $11000 for the SL2 (we opted for the DOCH 4cyl on the second one with better interior and A/C) you couldn't find a more fun car to drive for such short money, and get 42 mpg on the highway with a 5 speed to boot.
2) Pontiac has always been about the package, the atmosphere, the styling. Pontiac has always been another gm car---with minor different styling since at least 1955 to now. And what's wrong with that? (except fiero)
And the same could be said for Oldsmobile, which I thought should have been saved before Pontiac. In the end Stewart, it's just a name. The uniqueness of the brand fell apart after the GTO, lost a lot of steam after they stopped producing Firebirds, and was completely dead when they stopped the Fiero. Which by the way, was a refreshing departure from the norm for GM. I had a buddy that owned 5 of them (3 at once), and they were remarkably fun to drive. Go ahead and save Pontiac and GMC and kill off Chevrolet, it makes no difference. You still end up with the same car and truck. The simple truth is GM needs to stop making duplicates of everything and diluting their own market share of the auto industry.
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i really don't car about gmc Pontiac and all them I'm going to take 1k of my paycheck and invest it in Chevrolet stocks. or i just might keep it for my self muhhhhhhahahahahaha
You would be better off to invest it in beer, then at least you would have a pile of cans to show for your money.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hkp1qvTiuC6iGsxcyVECWOmx9f-AD9A6RUE03
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GM has some pretty slick tricks up their sleeves with engineering. They've come up with some really good technology and don't forget how many other manufacturers have followed in GM's footsteps. Even OBD2 is a giant GM copycat. Ford Engineering is the worst and I would never buy a Ford especially just because corporate GM, the unions and the government made a bunch of problems for themselves. I could care less if Pontiac, Olds, etc... goes. I would like to see GMC Cadillac & Chevrolet stay though. That being said if they were smart there would be more than subtle differences between GMC & Chevy trucks. Nevertheless I will never buy a NEW car anyway so I could care less if they all fall off the map at this point.
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Nevertheless I will never buy a NEW car anyway so I could care less if they all fall off the map at this point.
My sentiments exactly. I can't ever see myself spending so much money on a new car, when I could build a better, more personalized car for a fraction of the price. I think $16K for a new Cobalt is just as outrageous as $80K for a new BMW 750. Neither of those (or anything in between) is even on my radar.
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1) OUch! It's seems apparent that nobody here really likes pontiac; Maybe you all didn't grow up in a GM family and actually lived with and rode in and drove pontiacs. Maybe then you would understand.
2) Anyways, i've been doing some more thinking (here we go again) and i was thinking that maybe Oprah would be the perfect invester person i was talking about refering to my plan. It seems she likes pontiac---remember when she gave away all those grand-ams? She has ALOT of money. And, it just seems like she is associated with pontiac.
i'm thinking of writing her a letter.
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the only money she will invest is if there is a Pontiac in Africa :o
but i think we all see something you don't, yes Pontiac is a good car but you have survive it like trying to survive out in the wild you have to ration your food while you still have it not when your down to the last Twinkie they say "we have a problem".
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I love pontiac. I have always thought they were better looking than their counterparts. Just right now I cannot buy any brand of new car period so I am not real concerned with who is coming and who is going.
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burn um all
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Nevertheless I will never buy a NEW car anyway so I could care less if they all fall off the map at this point.
My sentiments exactly. I can't ever see myself spending so much money on a new car, when I could build a better, more personalized car for a fraction of the price. I think $16K for a new Cobalt is just as outrageous as $80K for a new BMW 750. Neither of those (or anything in between) is even on my radar.
You want to talk about a waste of $ check this out. I have a customer with a Land Rover right now who has 55K on it. The trans is shot, the wheel bearings and tires are shot let alone a slew of other problems. They still owe $27k on this thing and a new trans by itself no converter is around $8k. A used one is $2900 and for me to rebuild it is at least $1500 labor plus parts. People waste so much money on cars all because of a badge.
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Nevertheless I will never buy a NEW car anyway so I could care less if they all fall off the map at this point.
My sentiments exactly. I can't ever see myself spending so much money on a new car, when I could build a better, more personalized car for a fraction of the price. I think $16K for a new Cobalt is just as outrageous as $80K for a new BMW 750. Neither of those (or anything in between) is even on my radar.
You want to talk about a waste of $ check this out. I have a customer with a Land Rover right now who has 55K on it. The trans is shot, the wheel bearings and tires are shot let alone a slew of other problems. They still owe $27k on this thing and a new trans by itself no converter is around $8k. A used one is $2900 and for me to rebuild it is at least $1500 labor plus parts. People waste so much money on cars all because of a badge.
Yep, but when he/she rolls into soccer practice with Buffy/Biffy they look so important.
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1) OUch! It's seems apparent that nobody here really likes pontiac; Maybe you all didn't grow up in a GM family and actually lived with and rode in and drove pontiacs. Maybe then you would understand.
It's not that we don't like them Stewart.... It's just we don't feel this undying allegiance to a hood ornament, which is all Pontaic really was since the 1980s. My parents and grandparents owned a Cavalier (same as the Pontiac counterpart) and I'd say they were nothing to get excited about, as much as Pontiac's advertising at the time would like me to believe.
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There is nothing to get worked up about. I grew up in a GM family, we had Oldsmobiles, Chevrolets, GMCs, Buicks. When I was younger I used to praise Chevrolet cars and trucks, but after owning a bit of everything there isn't really much difference...I have had Chevrolet trucks and Ford trucks of the same vintage, I cannot really say one is better than the other. As for pontiac as smitty said it is only a badge. Do they even have the red illumination on the dash to differentiate them anymore? What makes a Pursuit any better than a Cobalt? or a SV6 better than an uplander, or a G-whatever than an impala? The only car I can see they had unique to them was the Vibe...which was a Toyota.
We have been buying Mazdas as our main car, and I have a CR-V. THe CR-V is a well-built car, and the Mazdas have been faultless - but the main reason we have bought them is the dealer is excellent. The biggest shame out of the GM restructuring is the loss of a number of good dealers, at least around here. The two GM dealers in town that lost their dealerships were the good ones and the one left is the slippery dishonest one. THat rules out any chance of a new GM product for me or my parents.
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The two GM dealers in town that lost their dealerships were the good ones and the one left is the slippery dishonest one.
Do you want to guess who donates to the Democrats?
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i dunno, i guess these videos really sum up the situation, the economy, what's going on with pontiac/gm etc.:
http://www.mefeedia.com/news/22841372
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D6AXWVOWW4&feature=fvw
Look, we NEED TO SAVE PONTIAC. i can't explain it in words; Please trust me.
Pontiac sold 250,000 units last yr, which was, i think 2nd place in the gm lineup (?). So, when the economy picks up (and it will) it would be valuable to continue pontiac as they will probably sell even more cars.
You may think that all pontiacs are just copies of other gm cars, but it's more than that. And even so, ALL gm cars are copies of other gm cars---even the corvette(a bad thing that will addressed in another post). So, that argument doesn't hold water.
We need to please think about how pontiac can be saved. We(technically) own part of this company, so we have the power.
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We could go to Australia and petition Holden to change their name to Pontiac. Presto, Pontiac is back. :D
And on another note, how many of these puppies would Gm sell if they rebadged it the Chevy El Camino?
http://www.holden.com.au/vehicles/Ute/SS
Alot I think.